From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Sat May 22 19:48:08 1999 Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 21:43:26 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8c)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9905C" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:40:29 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Cherryh's _Chanur_ Series Comments: cc: ajhs@usa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 8 May 99, at 22:41, Ruth t wrote: > I don't agree with Mike when he says that Cherryh > doesn't do this and that you can start with any > one of her books because I bought The Kif strike > back and I couldn't make head or tail of it. All I have to do is make a categorical statement and sure as nuts someone will pick up on the one exception (there are actually six exceptions in Cherryh's large corpus). If you got my note from Buda, you'll have some of what follows but let me expand: The _Chanur_ series consists of five books: _The pride of Chanur_ (stand-alone) _Chanur's venture / _The kif strike back_ / Chanur's Homecoming_ (a trilogy) _Chanur's Legacy_ (stand-alone or **arguably** first part of two). Although I've called the middle 3 a trilogy (which is strictly correct) the author describes them as essentially parts of the same book which makes them difficult to read out-of-sequence. So while you can usually just plunge in anywhere and enjoy Cherryh, you happen to have hit on an exception - Murphy's Law in action. Cherryh's rightly known as a difficult-to-read writer and I'm sure that this must have affected her sales. I remember reading this on a webreport for some award to Cherryh (can't remember the name). I don't regard this as a problem and I'm sure you won't either - especially if you visit her website (http://www.cherryh.com). There's an excellent introduction to her universe on http://www.cherryh.com/univer.htm and a superb time lime starting at http://www.cherryh.com/chrona1.htm (I printed both out and keep them in my Cherryh file). A couple of excellent programs (ChView and ChDesign) are also available at http://sunjessen24.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~jakobi/meetpoint/. The first lets you display starmaps in 3-D (RIGHT click on the map and if you move the cursor while holding down the button the POV changes which makes it easy to see true distances and relationships). For the Chanur series itself - _The pride of Chanur_ is a pretty good introduction to Cherryh (although the best is probably _Tripoint_ or, possibly, _Downbelow Station_; the best introduction to her style is _Merovingen Nights : angel with a sword_ which has an EXTENSIVE appendix with many hints about Cherryh's entire universe). The series taken as a whole is arguably Cherryh's best although the individual works fall short of (say) _Downbelow station_. *I* find that most of her books need at least 2 readings (with a day or two break) to extract the best from them, but her style is so complicated and enjoyable that the second reading is as good or even better than the first. The lead character of the _Chanur_ series is Pyanfar Chanur who strikes me as the most "real" alien character described anywhere in sf and one of Cherryh's best constructions. Her characters are *all* "real", flawed, less than perfect, "people" no matter how alien they may be; they can be irritating or intriguing, indecisive or forceful, wise or downright stupid, but never less than warm and breathing. She eschews black-and-white in favour of shades of grey so her villains are just a darker grey than her heroes and are thus sympathetic, even likeable. Even the least of her characters appear 3-D and living to a much greater extent than those of lesser writers. Her settings are almost always complex but she doesn't lay them out in a way that's always easy to follow (that's a compliment not a criticism). She gives you the clues, but then leaves you to flesh it out. I find this adds greatly to her appeal. Her work is usually intensely sensuous and I find it easy to "visualize" not just the sights but the sounds, smells and even the "feels" of her complex worlds. I should warn you that it can also be strongly erotic without being coarsely sexual. She's got two new books coming out (_The fortress of dragons_ in December and _Precursor_ - a new _Foreigner_ novel - next year). I'm going to a booksigning and/or to meet her next year if it kills me! Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:01:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 14 May 99, at 23:44, Santanico wrote: > Ouch. That stung. Please, don't inflict your rapier wit on me any more. I > promise I'll be good. Cobber, you'd better stick to using *your* wit on the sheep. You'll find them a much more appreciative audience. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:12:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:01 AM 15/05/99 -0500, you wrote: >Cobber, you'd better stick to using *your* wit on the sheep. You'll find them >a much more appreciative audience. Sheep? I'm an Australian, Anth. It's New Zealand that's infamous for its prodigious amount of sheep. Interesting, also, to note that you're now stooping to racial insults by way of responses. So I'm from Australia. If you can tell me exactly what this has to do with our discussion, I'd be happy to hear it. Or was this just a general expression of your feelings of American superiority? Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 09:15:05 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 15 May 99, at 11:01, Anthea Hartley Stanton wrote: > 14 May 99, at 23:44, Santanico wrote: > > > Ouch. That stung. Please, don't inflict your rapier wit on me any more. > > I promise I'll be good. > >Cobber, you'd better stick to using *your* wit on the sheep. You'll find >them a much more appreciative audience. Yes, mate, go out to the paddock and give the ewes a thrill! Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 09:20:09 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: Cherryh's _Chanur_ Series Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Mike Stanton wrote: >I should warn you that it can also be >strongly erotic without being coarsely sexual. Thanks Mike for the reply. I'm not surprised it took you so long to reply. I thought you were against sex in novels. I'm surprised that you seem to think that eroticism is a plus for sf/f. Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 11:31:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:15 AM 15/05/99 PDT, you wrote: >Yes, mate, go out to the paddock and give the ewes a thrill! Ruth - as I've stated before, I'm a woman. I realise that, the internet being what it is, there really isn't any way to prove this; it's one of those things you sort of have to take at face value. The point of this being, I've got no interest in ewes, and the term "mate" is redundant. Secondly, there's that good ol' American superiority asserting itself again. Yes, where would we be without the usual idiotic cultural stereotypes of Australians? Heck, we're all just a bunch of primitives anyway. Gosh, if only we could have a Ku Klux Klan, kids taking guns to school, and a President like Bill Clinton, too! Think how sophisticated we could be! Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 12:12:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anthea Hartley Stanton Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 15 May 99, at 11:12, Santanico wrote: > Interesting, also, to note that you're now stooping to racial > insults by way of responses. So I'm from Australia. If > you can tell me exactly what this has to do with our > discussion, I'd be happy to hear it. Hit a nerve did I? There's an old American saying "if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen". So have a Foster's, sob on your girlfriend's shoulder (don't get wool between your teeth) and think carefully next time you feel like making a nasty crack. > Or was this just a general expression of your feelings of > American superiority? Civis Romanus sum. AJ Anthea Hartley Stanton (ajhs@usa.net) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:36:12 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Cherryh's _Chanur_ Series Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 15 May 99, at 9:20, Ruth t wrote: > Thanks Mike for the reply. I'm not surprised it took you so long to reply. It's also that I had to stay over in Budapest, where I have difficulty with email, for a few extra days; our Hungarian clients have been badly hit by the Danube bridge bombings. Also Cherryh's a hard writer and I wanted to explain clearly enough that you weren't immediately put off. Did you get copies of _The pride of Chanur_, _Chanur's venture_ and _Chanur's homecoming_? I meant what I said - if you think you've wasted your money, I'll pay for them. Better than that I can't do! > I thought you were against sex in novels. I'm surprised > that you seem to think that eroticism is a plus for sf/f. I don't know where that came from. What I don't like is crude sex, fine-anatomical-detail sex. Some people do and there's nothing wrong in that, but I don't. Eroticism is a very different matter. Sometimes eroticism is absolutely essential for setting a mood and guiding the reader's reaction to the story. For example, there are two particular "incidents" in _Chanur's venture_ which are short, sharp and extremely erotic; they make a very powerful contribution to the development of the story *but* if you take each piece in isolation and look at just the words, you wonder why they seem at all sensual. For me to enjoy a novel, the author has to stir me. I have to be able to feel involved with the characters, to worry about their fate and to sense their moods as I read through the book. Not to put too fine a point on it, I have to be able to live with them, to enter their lives and to be part of their story. Usually Cherryh's characters are powerfully sensual and if Cherryh had omitted the eroticism which is necessary, indeed central to their lives, her characters would have been much the poorer. And I probably wouldn't have bothered to read her books. Thanks for the J V Jones recommendation. You were spot on. I'm going to post a short note on her later because her work is pretty good and, I believe, not as well known as it should be. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 15:11:55 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Cherryh's _Chanur_ Series In-Reply-To: <80256772.003C16BC.00@nun.postmaster.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks for all this information, in the back of my mind I wanted to compile some references to Cherryh when I got done with school this qtr but it always slips my mind and I have to do other work grin...thank you for saving me some legwork 8) Jo Ann At 11:40 AM 5/15/99 +0100, you wrote: >On 8 May 99, at 22:41, Ruth t wrote: > >> I don't agree with Mike when he says that Cherryh >> doesn't do this and that you can start with any >> one of her books because I bought The Kif strike >> back and I couldn't make head or tail of it. > >All I have to do is make a categorical statement and sure as nuts someone >will pick up on the one exception (there are actually six exceptions in >Cherryh's large corpus). If you got my note from Buda, you'll have some of >what follows but let me expand: > >The _Chanur_ series consists of five books: >_The pride of Chanur_ (stand-alone) >_Chanur's venture / _The kif strike back_ / Chanur's Homecoming_ (a >trilogy) >_Chanur's Legacy_ (stand-alone or **arguably** first part of two). > >Although I've called the middle 3 a trilogy (which is strictly correct) the >author describes them as essentially parts of the same book which makes >them difficult to read out-of-sequence. So while you can usually just >plunge in anywhere and enjoy Cherryh, you happen to have hit on an >exception - Murphy's Law in action. > >Cherryh's rightly known as a difficult-to-read writer and I'm sure that >this must have affected her sales. I remember reading this on a webreport >for some award to Cherryh (can't remember the name). I don't regard this as >a problem and I'm sure you won't either - especially if you visit her >website (http://www.cherryh.com). There's an excellent introduction to her >universe on http://www.cherryh.com/univer.htm and a superb time lime >starting at http://www.cherryh.com/chrona1.htm (I printed both out and keep >them in my Cherryh file). A couple of excellent programs (ChView and >ChDesign) are also available at >http://sunjessen24.informatik.tu-muenchen.de/~jakobi/meetpoint/. The first >lets you display starmaps in 3-D (RIGHT click on the map and if you move >the cursor while holding down the button the POV changes which makes it >easy to see true distances and relationships). > >For the Chanur series itself - _The pride of Chanur_ is a pretty good >introduction to Cherryh (although the best is probably _Tripoint_ or, >possibly, _Downbelow Station_; the best introduction to her style is >_Merovingen Nights : angel with a sword_ which has an EXTENSIVE appendix >with many hints about Cherryh's entire universe). The series taken as a >whole is arguably Cherryh's best although the individual works fall short >of (say) _Downbelow station_. *I* find that most of her books need at least >2 readings (with a day or two break) to extract the best from them, but her >style is so complicated and enjoyable that the second reading is as good or >even better than the first. > >The lead character of the _Chanur_ series is Pyanfar Chanur who strikes me >as the most "real" alien character described anywhere in sf and one of >Cherryh's best constructions. Her characters are *all* "real", flawed, less >than perfect, "people" no matter how alien they may be; they can be >irritating or intriguing, indecisive or forceful, wise or downright stupid, >but never less than warm and breathing. She eschews black-and-white in >favour of shades of grey so her villains are just a darker grey than her >heroes and are thus sympathetic, even likeable. Even the least of her >characters appear 3-D and living to a much greater extent than those of >lesser writers. > >Her settings are almost always complex but she doesn't lay them out in a >way that's always easy to follow (that's a compliment not a criticism). She >gives you the clues, but then leaves you to flesh it out. I find this adds >greatly to her appeal. Her work is usually intensely sensuous and I find it >easy to "visualize" not just the sights but the sounds, smells and even >the "feels" of her complex worlds. I should warn you that it can also be >strongly erotic without being coarsely sexual. > >She's got two new books coming out (_The fortress of dragons_ in December >and _Precursor_ - a new _Foreigner_ novel - next year). I'm going to a >booksigning and/or to meet her next year if it kills me! > > > >Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 18:57:40 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Bouwman Subject: Re: THE BLUE PLACE / congratulations / you've got mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/13/99 4:40:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, r_tarx@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > A month ago I went to a minority owned travel business to book my European > vacation. I leave 2 weeks Saturday, but up til Monday although I'd been > there 5 times, I still hadn't got my tickets etc and I had to get visas > myself. The price kept going up so much I was thinking of cancelling. Monday > I told the minority business to take a hike and went to a branch of a big > *patriarchal* business someone on this list recommended. I was treated with > respect and got lots of good advise, suggestions and brochures. I went back > Tuesday morning, told them what I wanted, picked up all the tickets this > morning and it cost me 25% less than the minority business wanted. The > patriarchs would even have got me visas. So where do you think I'm going to > book my next trip? But will you book it with them because they are a "patriarchal" business, or a well-run business? There are businesses out there run by minorities that are just as good as or better than the "patriarchal" ones. Just as there are very badly run "patriarchal" businesses. My travel agency is owned by a local woman and I have never received such wonderful service as I receive from them. I recommend them to everyone I know. And there is a local garage that I would call a "patriarchal" business that I warn everyone I know of to stay away from because they are literally dishonest. Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 21:04:02 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Barbara R. Hume" Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AJ, cut it out. You're embarrassing the rest of us. lurima ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 23:47:17 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: THE BLUE PLACE / congratulations / you've got mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Tanya Bouwman wrote: >But will you book it with them because they are a "patriarchal" business, >or a well-run business? There are businesses out there run by minorities >that are just as good as or better than the "patriarchal" ones. Just as >there are very badly run "patriarchal" businesses. My travel agency is >owned by a local woman and I have never received such wonderful service as >I receive from them. I recommend them to everyone I know. And there is a >local garage that I would call a "patriarchal" business that I warn >everyone I know of to stay away from because they are literally dishonest. No, no just because they're a well run business. I agree with you about businesses run by minorities being just as good as patriarchal and that there are also bad patriarchal businesses. What I was trying to say that in the past I would have gone to a business BECAUSE they were minority etc even if they weren't as good or as cheap as others. NOW I'm going to stay away from BAD OR COSTLY businesses no matter who runs them and I'm going to use the best and cheapest businesses whether theyre run by minorities or patriarchs. If 2 business are equally good, I'll stick with the minority business though. I wonder whether by supporting businesses just because they're minority we haven't harmed them. If we'd supported them through a period of grace so that they could get to know the business and then told the businesses that we wouldn't support them any longer unless their service and prices improved, it might have been better for them. As it is a lot of these businesses won't even try to attract non-minority customers because they rely on the loyalty of their minority etc ones. People's loyalties about things which cost them money can change quickly especially if for example they lose their jobs and have to save money. Once a customer's got used to shopping at low prices with good services, she's not going to be willing to go back to her old ways even if her money situation improves. Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 03:42:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:12 PM 15/05/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hit a nerve did I? There's an old American saying "if you can't take the heat, >stay out of the kitchen". So have a Foster's, sob on your girlfriend's >shoulder (don't get wool between your teeth) and think carefully next time you >feel like making a nasty crack. So you see no difference between making a silly one-liner about a movie, directed at no one in particular, and personally insulting someone purely due to their nationality? Tell me, if I were Asian or black, would you be making racial remarks? Or is it okay because I'm just one of those primitive Australians? >Civis Romanus sum. Yes, all right, you're very sophisticated. She speaks Latin, oooh, I'll just shut right up. Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:59:04 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ruth t Subject: Re: Cherryh's _Chanur_ Series Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Mike Stanton wrote: >Did you get copies of _The pride of Chanur_, _Chanur's venture_ >and Chanur's homecoming_? I meant what I said - if you think >you've wasted your money, I'll pay for them. Better than that I can't do! Thanks, yes I did and I also got Chanur's Legacy, Tripoint and Finity's End. I've read Pride of Chanur but I'm not going to continue with the series until I've read Tripoint as you advise. You won't have to pay for the books - I've really enjoyed The Pride of Chanur and I'm enjoying Tripoint. The Cherryh website is very good and the lists of books grouped into series is very useful. >For me to enjoy a novel, the author has to stir me. >I have to be able to feel involved with the characters, >to worry about their fate and to sense their moods as I read through the >book. Not to put too fine a point on it, >I have to be able to live with them, to enter their lives and to be part of >their story. Doesn't that make it difficult to read something new? I mean how do you deal with stories that are outside your experience like gay or lesbian fiction or things that people imagine that are so way out that you can't even begin to "live with them". >Thanks for the J V Jones recommendation. You were spot on. Anytime. I owed you one over the Cherryh notes. Ruth ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:42:35 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Cherryh's _Chanur_ Series Comments: cc: ajhs@usa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 15 May 99, at 22:59, Ruth t wrote: > Doesn't that make it difficult to read something new? I mean how do you > deal with stories that are outside your experience like gay or lesbian > fiction or things that people imagine that are so way out that you can't > even begin to "live with them". Yes and no. My interests as you've seen from the reading lists we circulated cover many fields but paradoxically within each field, I only like a limited number of authors (many other people are the same). Since I've got limited time to read, I use feminist sf/f as *light* recreational reading and stick to the non-sf mainstream for "heavier" works so that somewhat restricts my reading. Perhaps for that very reason I'm finding it increasingly difficult to get suitable feminist sf/f and am beginning to turn to mainstream sf/f. Specifically on gay and lesbian material: I've never actually read any gay sf/f. This isn't due to a dislike of gay material, it's just that I haven't come across anything that falls into "light sf/f". I've read a *very limited* number of lesbian works (most notably Nicola Griffith's writing which I enjoyed) and enjoyed / disliked them in about the same ratio as for heterosexual feminist sf/f. I find the quality of the writing, plotting, character development etc is much more important than the protagonists' sexual orientation(s). Again, I've never actually come across something that is "so way out that [I] can't even begin to 'live with them'" in specifically sf/f or other genres; I believe that nobody can possibly imagine something so outre that it boggles the minds of more than a few other people. Cyberpunk, for example, was supposed to do that, but if one reads a few cyberpunk books (starting with William Gibson's _Neuromancer_), cyberpunk's derivative nature and implausibility (even in a genre based on implausibility) make it seem dated rather than bizarre. Perhaps I just haven't read widely enough, or perhaps such books simply turn me off before I get far enough into them to get the full story. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 13:44:09 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Giacomo Conserva Subject: Re: you've got mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from: Anthea Hartley Stanton < Civis Romanus sum. > (= I'm a Roman citizen) I really doubt women were considered Roman citizens. And the Roman republic and empire were based on patriarchy, military power and slave labor anyway, not just on justice and freedom. Giacomo C. gconserva@mail.dex-net.com ("Dappertutto regnava la guerra, e tutta la terra era in pace"- Rousseau,'Saggio sull'origine delle lingue') ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 11:35:41 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Cherryh's _Chanur_ Series Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 16 May 99, at 11:42, Mike Stanton wrote: >Perhaps for that very reason I'm finding it increasingly difficult >to get suitable feminist sf/f and am beginning to turn to >mainstream sf/f. It must be difficult to be on a feministSF list and NOT get enough recommendations to feministSF books. Sure someone must be keeping a list of all the books that are mentioned? Have you tried Nancy Kress (although I don't know that her books are light), Elizabeth Lynn (Ive just finished "Dragon's Winter" which is "light" and very good), or Kate Waitman (her "The Divided" is very good)? >Nicola Griffith's writing which I enjoyed I think she's only written three ("Ammonite", "The Blue Place" and "Slow River") and I enjoyed them all. The first two are light (perhaps not the first), but I found "Slow River" was enjoyable but not really light. Presumably that was the one you liked least. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 20:27:31 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Cherryh's _Chanur_ Series Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 16 May 99, at 11:35, Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: > It must be difficult to be on a feministSF list and NOT get > enough recommendations to feministSF books. Sure someone > must be keeping a list of all the books that are mentioned? I think almost everybody prefer heavier books; it's perhaps no coincidence that since December, I've posted the names of more "light" books than everybody else combined. Of course, I have keep up a lively correspondence with quite a few people off-list which helps. There are two people keeping lists of the authors/books people mention. > Have you tried Nancy Kress (although I don't know that > her books are light), Elizabeth Lynn (Ive just finished > "Dragon's Winter" which is "light" and very good), or > Kate Waitman (her "The Divided" is very good)? I've tried Nancy Kress (_An Alien Light_) but although interesting I found it too slow and too wordy so I haven't tried any more. I haven't tried either of the others but I'll certainly do so. At the moment I'm busy making a complete collection of MZB's books. A bookshop owner we met in Boston earlier this year has located a nearly complete collection that may be for sale, so by a week on Tuesday when I'm there that little job may be completed. I'm thinking of tackling Julian May next (most of her books seem to be readily available). > I think she's only written three ("Ammonite", "The Blue Place" > and "Slow River") and I enjoyed them all. The first two are > light (perhaps not the first), but I found "Slow River" > was enjoyable but not really light. Presumably that was > the one you liked least. I've also read and enjoyed them all (rating them in inverse order of your listing). The first is sf/f, the second is dubiously sf while I classified the third as a mystery. Which since I'm a real sucker for mysteries, I enjoyed it the most. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:07:54 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Bookstores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Auckland (New Zealand), the Women's Bookshop is waaay ahead of the local chain store (Barnes and Noble opening soon). There is no sacrifice in going there and a heap of benefits. Carol and Kaaren, who run it, read voraciously - chances are any book you want to read yourself or buy as a present they will have read themselves. If not they will have read a review of it or had lots of feedback about it from women in the shop. But the main plus is that it is a vibrant and active part of the Auckland feminist community. They run a biennial women's writers weekend, just had a fantastic 10th anniversary concert, have readings or booklaunchings once a month, and sell tickets to all the women's, feminist and lesbian events I want to go to. They advertise other events they don't have ticket to, and have a big book of accommodation listings, as well as a couch to browse on and free coffee. If you want to know what is going on in women's circles, this bookshop is the best place to go to. The local chain has only some of the more popular books, and none of the rest. To me, bookshops like this are an important part of my feminist community, not some chore I have to sacrifice time and money to support. Jenny Rankine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:17:23 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Personal comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Yes, mate, go out to the paddock and give the ewes a thrill! I find personal comments like this disturbing and offensive. Please conduct these kinds of discussions off the list. Jenny Rankine (also Australian) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 02:42:03 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marianne Reddin Aldrich Subject: Re: List of Books mentioned Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Asamattafact, I have just such a list. It is not quite complete, as I only take note of the ones that I haven't already read, and sometimes can't be bothered to open up the list document if someone is just saying, 'don't read this book', and it is a little more than complete, as I am also writing down the non-fiction books mentioned that look halfways interesting to me. But, if anyone would like a copy of what I *have* (very bare bones), just let me know. Marianne Claudia wrote: > >It must be difficult to be on a feministSF list and NOT get enough >recommendations to feministSF books. Sure someone must be keeping a list of >all the books that are mentioned? > >Have you tried Nancy Kress (although I don't know that her books are >light), >Elizabeth Lynn (Ive just finished "Dragon's Winter" which is "light" and >very good), or Kate Waitman (her "The Divided" is very good)? > >>Nicola Griffith's writing which I enjoyed > >I think she's only written three ("Ammonite", "The Blue Place" and "Slow >River") and I enjoyed them all. The first two are light (perhaps not the >first), but I found "Slow River" was enjoyable but not really light. >Presumably that was the one you liked least. > > >Claudia > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 22:42:50 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Bouwman Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/15/99 9:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Lurima@AOL.COM writes: > AJ, cut it out. You're embarrassing the rest of us. > > lurima > > AJ, Ruth, etc..--would you ALL please cut it out. I do not find it embarrassing so much as I find it downright annoying! I have to deal with childish behavior everyday from my two children. I get on this list to get some adult conversations. >>"General Guidelines for ListServe Behavior: * Don't "flame" other people - be considerate & polite"<< Is it truly so difficult to follow this simple guideline? Anthea, Santanico made a sarcastic comment that stated she found all the in-depth analysis of a movie that she thought of as a simple romance to be (in her opinion) silly. Your reaction to that comment was as if she had personally attacked you. She did not. You however have personally attacked her. She has not laid down and submitted to your point of view, so you continued to attack her personally. Ruth, you have joined in that attacking of Santanico's character when she wasn't even speaking with you. Now, both of you, cut it out! Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 01:18:53 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Personal comments: *Ditto* - plus Request for Info: In-Reply-To: <01be9fe1$7d6b6200$0901a8c0@wks45.hrc.govt.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:17 17/05/99 +1200, Jenny Rankine wrote: >>Yes, mate, go out to the paddock and give the ewes a thrill! >> >I find personal comments like this disturbing and offensive. Please conduct >these kinds of discussions off the list. >Jenny Rankine (also Australian) Having been off-line for some time, I have only just finished reading through this particular thread. I am also disgusted, and was about to unsubscribe - except that, as a writer, I do find useful information/discussion on this list. So, on second thoughts, I did not feel I should feel forced to leave, just because a small minority of crass individuals have nothing better to do with their time, than resort to adolescent name-calling and racial/cultural slurs. Neither did I think I should ignore it, in the way that I would ignore a bunch of misbehaving 4-year-olds who aren't mature enough to know better. I assume, (similar to 4-year-olds) that apologies are out of the question as well...but anyway, onto a tangent loosely related to this issue and sci-fi: In one of my recent book/literature discussions at a local college - the question of nationalism/cultural identification came up in the context of science-fiction and speculative fiction. Apart from some literary fiction, historical pieces or political satire, (Schindlers List, Kurt Vonnegut, Karel Capek etc) , we were not able to come up with many examples, in sci-fi/fantasy/speculative fiction - let alone feminist - where this theme was a major point of a novel or short-story. Tho' Le Guin, and even Jo Clayton, came to my mind - they still *feel* like minor, not major, themes - nonetheless they have been included - but our list is woefully short. Does anyone on-list know of anything which they might suggest for my discussion group's reading list? Thanks - Y'all have a nice day now, y'hear? Julieanne (also Australian - sharpening her croc knife on the roo-bar of her trusted HJ Kingswood) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 20:23:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: you've got mail / bookstores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hear, hear! Tanya Bouwman wrote: > In a message dated 5/15/99 9:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Lurima@AOL.COM > writes: > > > AJ, cut it out. You're embarrassing the rest of us. > > > > lurima > > > > > AJ, Ruth, etc..--would you ALL please cut it out. I do not find it > embarrassing so much as I find it downright annoying! I have to deal with > childish behavior everyday from my two children. I get on this list to get > some adult conversations. > > >>"General Guidelines for ListServe Behavior: > * Don't "flame" other people - be considerate & polite"<< > > Is it truly so difficult to follow this simple guideline? Anthea, Santanico > made a sarcastic comment that stated she found all the in-depth analysis of a > movie that she thought of as a simple romance to be (in her opinion) silly. > Your reaction to that comment was as if she had personally attacked you. She > did not. You however have personally attacked her. She has not laid down > and submitted to your point of view, so you continued to attack her > personally. Ruth, you have joined in that attacking of Santanico's character > when she wasn't even speaking with you. Now, both of you, cut it out! > > Tanya ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 05:53:31 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Book listings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've had *11* postings (probably with more to come) asking me about the listing of books people have mentioned. Unfortunately neither of the listings are mine to post or to forward. I'd be grateful therefore if people interested in them would address them to the list at large rather than to me personally. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 22:37:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: listmistress: get the crap off the list Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII while the list can now rove to topics congenial to list members, it is *not* a flame forum. take the shit off the list, right away. you know who you are. i'll unsubscribe you without further warnings if i see any more bullshit on the list. (can you tell that i'm getting pissed?) y'all act like adults, now. please. Laura Quilter / lquilter@igc.apc.org "If I can't dance, I don't want to be in your revolution." -- Emma Goldman *** NEW TRIAL FOR MUMIA ABU-JAMAL *** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:59:18 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: List of books mentioned in my postings (very long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii [*FSFFU*] List of books mentioned in my postings (very long) FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU I think that everyone should consider posting a complete list of books mentioned in their own notes. I realise that this would clog up the list for a while but I think the effort and inconvenience would be more than justified in the vast number of "new" books for people to mull over. To start the ball rolling, I'm posting mine. You should note that, like Arthur C Clarke, I believe that the prime purpose of fiction is to entertain so my ratings - where given - refer only to how much I enjoyed the book(s). I'm afraid there is some repetition and some books which are not sf/f. Some of the latter were left in deliberately, others through my carelessness. Books marked with + are ones I've not read yet. -------------------------------------- Anderson, Rachel: _The purple heart throbs : the sub-literature of love_ Asaro, Catherine: _The radiant seas_ (****_), _Catch the lightning_ (****-), "Aurora in four voices" [in _Analog_ Dec 1998] (****-) Atwood, Margaret: _The handmaid's tale Bacon-Smith, Camille : _Eyes of the Demon_ (*****), _Eyes of the Empress_ (****-) (mystery/fantasy) Bradley, Marion Zimmer: The falcons of Narabedla_ (***--), _The forbidden tower_ (***--), _The door through space_ (****-), _Sword & sorceress 1 & _ (only edited by MZB but some good stories), _The sword of Aldones_ (****-), _Hunters of the Red Moon_ (***--), _The survivors _ (**---), _The Ruins of Isis_ (*****), _Survey Ship_ (***--), _Planet savers_ (****-), _The Bloody Sun_ (****-), _Star of danger_ (****-), _Winds of Darkover_ (*****), _Return to Darkover_ (***** a.t. _Exile's song_), _Sharra's exile_ _Heritage of Hastur_ (****-), Bradley, Marion Zimmer: _Gravelight_ (***--), _City of Sorcery_ (***--), _Exile's Song_ (**---), _The fall of Atlantis_ (**---), _Ghostlight_ (****-), _The gratitude of kings_ (***--), _The Mists of Avalon_, _Lady of Avalon_ Briggs, Patricia: _When Demons Walk_ (****-) (mystery/fantasy) Bujold, Lois McMaster : _Barrayar_, _The Vor Game_, _Falling free_, _Ethan of Athos_ Butler, Octavia: _Clay's Ark_ (*----) Carr, Jayge: _Leviathan's deep_ (*----), _Treasure in the heart of the maze_(*----), _Rabeliasian Reprise_ (**---), _Navigator's Sindrome_ (*----) Cherryh, CJ: _Serpent's reach_ (****-), _Merchanter's luck_ (****-), _Wave without a shore_, _The fortress in time's eye_ (*****), _The fortress of the eagles_ (****-), _The fortress of the owls_ (***--), _Skyfall_ (***--), _Port Eternity (****-), _Cyteen_, _The pride of Chanur_, _Chanur's venture_, _The kif strike back_, _Chanur's homecoming_, _Chanur's Legacy_, _Tripoint_, _Downbelow Station_, The fortress of dragons+_ (to be published in December), _Foreigner_, _Invader_, _Inheritor_, _Precursor+_ (To be published in 2000) Conrad, Robert: _Children of God's Fire: A History of Black Slavery in Brazil_ Cooper, Louise: _The king's demon_ (***--), _Revenant_ (****-) Crean, Michelle Shirey: _Dancer of the Sixth_ (pleasant space opera) Drake, David: _Crisis of Empire_ Egan, Doris: _The gate of Ivory (***--), _Two-bit heroes (***--), _Guilt-edged Ivory_ (****-). Elliott, Kate : _Jaran_ (*****) Fancher, Jane: _Ring of lightning_ (****-), _Ring of intrigue_ (***--) Forsyth, Kate : The Witches of Eileanan (*----) Friesner, Esther: _The Sherwood game_ (***--), _Here be demons_ (***--), _Demon blues_ (***--), _Hooray for Hellywood_ Gentle, Mary: _Grunts!: a fantasy with attitude_ (*****), _Scholars and soldiers_ (****-), _Rats and gargoyles_, _Architecture of desire_, _Ancient Light_, _Hawk in Silver+_ and _Golden witchbreed+_ Gibson, William: _Neuromancer_ Greenland, Colin: _Take back Plenty_, _Seasons of Plenty_ Greer, Germaine: _Slip-shod sybils : recognition, rejection and the woman poet_, _The whole woman_ Griffith, Nicola: _Ammonite_, _The Blue Place_, _Slow River_ (*****) Hamer, R L: _Romantic fiction and the modern woman_ Hobb, Robin: _Assassin's apprentice (****-), Royal assassin_ (*****), _Assassin's quest_ (****-), _Ship of magic_ (****-) Hopkinson, Nalo: _Brown girl in the ring_ (**---) Jensen, Kris: _FireLord_, Mentor_, _Healer_ Judd, Cyril (C M Kornbluth and Judith Merril):_Gunner Cade_ Kerr, Katharine: _Daggerspell_ (****-), _Darkspell_ (***--), _Dawnspell_ (**---), _Dragonspell_ (***--), _The red wyvern_ (****-) Kress, Nancy: _An Alien Light_ LeGuin, Ursula: _Fisherman of the inland sea_ (*----), _The disposessed_, _The left hand of darkness_, _Four Ways to Forgiveness_ Maxwell, Ann: _Fire dancer_ (***--), _Dancer's luck_ (***--), _Dancer's Illusion_ (***--) May, Julian: _The many-coloured land_ (***--), _The golden torc_ (***--), _The non-born King_ (***--), _The adversary_ (***--) McCaffrey, Anne: _The ship who searched_ [with Mercedes Lackey] (*----), _Generation warriors_ [with Elizabeth Moon] (***--), _The ship who searched_, _The ship errant_, _The city who fought_ [with S M Stirling], _Acorna: the unicorn girl_, _Freedom's landing_ (****-), Freedom's choice_ (***--), _Freedom's challenge (***--)_, _Partnership_, _The ship who sang_, _The ship who won_ McKenna, Juliet E: _The thief's gamble_ (****-) Moon, Elizabeth: _Hunting party_, _Once a hero_, _The Deed of Paksenarrion_ (omnibus volume containing: _Sheepfarmer's Daughter_, _Divided Allegiance_, _Oath of Gold_) Morton, Andrew: _Monica's story_ Morton, Andrew Queen: _Literary detection : how to prove authorship and fraud in literature and documents_ O'Rourke, P J: _Eat the rich [a treatise on economics]_ (hilarious) Orwell, George: _1984_ Park, Severna: _Speaking Dreams_ (*----), _Hand of Prophecy_ (*----) Patton, Fiona: _The Painter Knight_ (*----) Radford, Irene: _The Glassdragon_ (*****), _The last battlemage_ (****-) Resnik, Mike (editor): Alternate tyrants [differing destinies for deviant despots]_,The _Alternate..._ series (_~ Presidents_, _~ Kennedys_, _~ Warriors_, _~Outlaws_) Routley, Jane : _Mage Heart_ (****-),_Fire Angels_ (***--) Rusch, Kristine Kathryn: "Faith", _The New Rebellion - Star Wars_ (very enjoyable), _Alien influences_ Russ, Joanna : _What we are fighting for: Sex, race, class and the Future of feminism_, _The female man_ Russell, Mary Doria _The sparrow_, _The Children of God_ (*---- Ugh!) Sargent, Pamela: _The shore of women_ (****-) Stirling, S M: _Drakon (*****), _The Rose Sea_ [with Holly Lisle] (*****), _The ship avenged_ (*****), _Island in the sea of time_ (*****), _Marching through Georgia_, _The stone dogs, _ Sullivan, Tricia: _Dreaming in smoke_ (****-) Tepper, Sheri S: _Still life_ (**---) West, Michelle: Hunter's Oath_ (***--), _Hunter's Death_ (***--) Williams, Jon: _Hardwired_, _Voice of the Wind_ Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 07:22:28 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Personal comments: *Ditto* - plus Request for Info: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/17/99 3:24:10 AM, Julieanne wrote from her perch in beautiful Oz: <> Not major theme, but important parts of the plots/stories... The Honor Harrington series (again! sorry!); Asaro's Catch the Lightning; Bujold's Cordelia's Honor... in these, cultural and/or national identity is a plot complication and used as well for character and world-building development. best, phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:10:52 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stefanie Jenssen Subject: eurocon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Is anyone from this list going to the Eurocon in Dortmund (May 21-24)? It seems there is not much going on there regarding feminist sf and it could be nice to get together and bring the topic up in some of the discussions. Please mail me if you are going, Regards, Stefanie Jenssen, Luxembourg ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 20:51:23 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: impact of megastores on indies / Julie Jones / BLUE PLACE / Jo Clayton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd: Have the chains impacted MG? You bet. We just celebrated our sixth year of business, and are hopeful but not positive we will be here next May to celebrate our seventh. ---- IMO if there is any moral high ground associated with the support of good indies, it has to do with maintaining a broad spectrum of interrlectual properties, and supporting a level playing field in business rather than supporting unfair and immoral if not illegal business practices. ------ Sheryl: Do you have a particular focus in your old books? Or are you eclectic? Most collectors I know tend to have running themes -- movable books, flora or fauna, medical texts, railroads, etc. -------- Sant.: I guess my bigest problem with "You've Got Mail" was that it was hugely popular, and I think a lot of people left thinking it had informed them of the chain/indy situation and reassured them that if chains take over and indies disappear, it's okay. I hope I haven't confused you by responding to your comment rather than attacking your country of residence or gender neutral sig... :P ======= Mike: Which J.V. Jones have you read? Her original trilogy? ------ BTW, if it hasn't already been mentioned, Nicola's THE BLUE PLACE shared this year's Lambda Award for Best Lesbian Mystery. Yay, Nicola! @@@@@@ I think cultural identity is a fairly major theme in most of Jo Clayton's works. Maybe that's a misjudgement just because I find her aliens so complex, believable and fascinating? Pax, Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 16:44:55 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alexandra Soltow Subject: Re: Book listings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, all - I've just joined the list, and my curiosity was tweaked by the mention of a listing of books. If such a thing exists, how do I get my hands on it? Alex (a major Sheri S. Tepper fan) Alexandra Soltow pamra@rockland.net <*><*><*><*><*><*> Meandering to a different drummer. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:28:12 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christen Smith Subject: Re: Sheri Tepper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have just started reading Sheri Tepper recently and I love all the books I've read. The first one I read was Gate to Woman's Country. I did some research on feminist utopias last spring and when I found that I was really interested. Just recently I read Beauty and Grass, and I have A Plague of Angels waiting for me to get time to read it. Marge Piercy has been a favorite of mine for a while, but in the past few months both Sheri Tepper and Octavia Butler have joined her. Christen Smith --- Alexandra Soltow wrote: > Hi, all - > > I've just joined the list, and my curiosity was > tweaked by the mention of a > listing of books. If such a thing exists, how do I > get my hands on it? > > Alex (a major Sheri S. Tepper fan) > > Alexandra Soltow > pamra@rockland.net > > <*><*><*><*><*><*> > > Meandering to a different drummer. > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:16:22 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: *FSFFU*] J V Jones Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 16 May 99, at 20:51, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Which J.V. Jones have you read? Her original trilogy? I've now read five including the trilogy; I don't know whether that's all she's written. I delayed commenting on her work (most of which I've read over the last two months) until I'd read the last of the trilogy. I must point out that, like Arthur C Clarke, I believe that the prime purpose of fiction is to entertain so my ratings - where given - refer only to how much I *personally* enjoyed the book. Some people dislike "non-standalone" books, so I've made comments on that also. _A Cavern of Black Ice_ [The Sword of Shadows, Book 1] (****-). If you haven't read Jones before this is probably the best book to start with. This is a typical book of its kind but set in a powerfully developed, richly textured, almost "real" world ranging from the bleak, cold north (where most of the action takes place) to the warm fertile south; the bizarre cultures are described magnificently (Jones' trademark). It's the story (primarily) of a young warrior, Raif, who discovers his murdered father and chief, and of his tribulations under a new, sinister chief. Aided by a mysterious stranger, he encounters Ash March who's discovered an "ancient evil" which allows her "father" to steal magic and together they penetrate the Black Cavern... The book appears to be "standalone" although there are NUMEROUS threads left hanging for a sequel. _The Barbed Coil_ (****-) The book is not as well drawn as _A Black Cavern of ice_ but is still very good. It's the story of a young woman living on Earth, suffering from tinnitus (ringing in the ears), who finds a ring which transports her to a fantasy world in which she has magic powers. She uses these powers to try to defeat a king who wears a crown (a larger version of her ring) by which he is "controlled" and through which he controls his subjects and enemies. It's a peculiar mixture of inspired and pedestrian writing but I found it enjoyable because her descriptive powers are astounding. I also sympathize with the heroine; I myself suffered from tinnitus for three months after I got the bends during a scuba rescue and it drove me up the wall. It's "standalone" but again far too many loose threads. _The Book of Words Trilogy (_The Baker's Boy_- ****--, _A Man Betrayed_ -**---, _Master and Fool_ ***--) Caveat: I strongly suggest that you consider these books as one work - so you EITHER read *all* three OR read none. None of the books are remotely "standalone"; the second is totally unintelligible unless you've read the first and the third is only marginally better. Unfortunately the author either didn't have a coherent plan to start with or changed her mind for the second book and again for the third so there are abrupt shifts in storyline. Don't let this put you off though, reading *all three books as one* acts like synergy - the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The trilogy hinges round a kitchen boy, Jack, with strange powers who (in the first book) aids a princess, Melliandra, to escape an unwelcome marriage while perfecting the powers which will (one day) save the world. In the second book, Jack and Melliandra (who's developing powers of her own) have to defeat Mad Prince Kylock who's scheming to take over the world while wooing the Insane Sorceress, Catherine. The final book is the culmination of the battle between Jack and Mad Prince Kylock to avoid the end of the world as Jack knows it. In summary: subject to my caveat, an excellent author whose books are well worth reading. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 11:52:20 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: J V Jones Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 18 May 99, at 12:16, Mike Stanton wrote: >I've now read five including the trilogy; I don't know whether that's all >she's written. I delayed >commenting on her work (most of which I've read >over the last two months) until I'd read the last of the trilogy. It must cost you a fortune in books. The other night I left out Louise Marley. I think she's written 3 books with another due out soon. The books out are _Sing the light_, _Sing the Warmth_ and _Sing the gift_. Kristin Britain, who I think has only written one book called _Green Rider_, seems to be your type of writer. Also Delia Marshall Turner who i've read 2 books by, _Nameless Magery_ and _Of swords and spells_. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:28:15 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: J V Jones Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Claudia wrote: > It must cost you a fortune in books. Not really Claudia. I probably don't spend any more than, say the average US family. I believe that the sort of familiy I'm thinking of would spend about, what, 5% of their income on reading material ; given an average income of, say, US$100-120K that's only US$5K. Frankly I wonder if the cost of reading is really that large an item in most family budgets; it just looks big when one's looking around for something to cut back on. > The other night I left out Louise Marley. I think > she's written 3 books with another due out soon.... I tried to read _Sing the light_ but no go. It was about the magic of singing (put crudely) and I prefer more conventional action. > Kristin Britain ... [and] ... Delia Marshall Turner I haven't heard of either of those two. I must check them out next week. You'll be amused to note that after my mention of moving over to mainstrean sf, I promptly got an email listing of books extracted from a mainstream sf list. There's a lot of stuff available now. I'm also considering going back to crime etc fiction. I'm now pretty out of date and the stuff has been piling up. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:24:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Heather MacLean Subject: Re: average US incomes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:28 PM 5/18/99 +0100, you wrote: >Not really Claudia. I probably don't spend any more than, say the average >US family. I believe that the sort of familiy I'm thinking of would spend >about, what, 5% of their income on reading material ; given an average >income of, say, US$100-120K that's only US$5K. *CHOKE* Average income??? As an ex-academic (now parttime academic), I'm lucky if my average income was above 30K. I -know- I'm in the wrong field for money, but really--I didn't imagine the average income for the US in anywhere above 50K... Am I that gladly mistaken? Heather =) .. http://www.zipcon.net/~hlm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:35:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: average US incomes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Family income in even such wealthy locales as Fairfax County, VA, or Bryn Mawr, PA probably trends a bit lower than 100K... -----Original Message----- From: Heather MacLean [mailto:h.maclean@ZIPCON.NET] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 6:25 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] average US incomes At 09:28 PM 5/18/99 +0100, you wrote: >Not really Claudia. I probably don't spend any more than, say the average >US family. I believe that the sort of familiy I'm thinking of would spend >about, what, 5% of their income on reading material ; given an average >income of, say, US$100-120K that's only US$5K. *CHOKE* Average income??? As an ex-academic (now parttime academic), I'm lucky if my average income was above 30K. I -know- I'm in the wrong field for money, but really--I didn't imagine the average income for the US in anywhere above 50K... Am I that gladly mistaken? Heather =) .. http://www.zipcon.net/~hlm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:48:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sophia Hegner Subject: Re: average US incomes In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990518153324.49e72b6a@zipcon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't think so. As far as I know the average isn't over $70K. $100K-$120K is high income. It's a fortune as far as I am concerned. At 03:24 PM 5/18/99 , you wrote: >At 09:28 PM 5/18/99 +0100, you wrote: > >>Not really Claudia. I probably don't spend any more than, say the average >>US family. I believe that the sort of familiy I'm thinking of would spend >>about, what, 5% of their income on reading material ; given an average >>income of, say, US$100-120K that's only US$5K. > >*CHOKE* Average income??? > >As an ex-academic (now parttime academic), I'm lucky if my average income >was above 30K. I -know- I'm in the wrong field for money, but really--I >didn't imagine the average income for the US in anywhere above 50K... Am I >that gladly mistaken? > >Heather >=) > > > >.. >http://www.zipcon.net/~hlm > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 19:00:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: jenn mottram Subject: Re: J V Jones In-Reply-To: <80256775.0071C7CF.00@nun.postmaster.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:28 PM 5/18/99 +0100, you wrote: >Not really Claudia. I probably don't spend any more than, say the average >US family. I believe that the sort of familiy I'm thinking of would spend >about, what, 5% of their income on reading material ; given an average >income of, say, US$100-120K that's only US$5K. Frankly I wonder if the cost >of reading is really that large an item in most family budgets; it just >looks big when one's looking around for something to cut back on. er... I'd not say that the average income is anywhere near that high. In Amherst, NH (which seems to be a rich town) the Median Household Income is $62,568 and an average house costs $261,000. I'm sure you'll receive a lot of comments from people about their respective incomes... I know that our household income is $68,000 with 6 people in the house, and I don't feel particularly wealthy. And I couldn't afford 5% of my income to books (but I suspect I spend that much anyhow! ;-) ). Also, the average family isn't going to spend anywhere near that amount on books --- remember, this is the land where the average person doesn't read at all, where 3 books a year is considered substantial. *sigh* jenn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:11:49 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: average US incomes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" According to the US Census bureau web site, the AVERAGE US household income in 1996 was $47,101; MEDIAN was $35,172. (based on "March Current Population Surveys", whatever that means) -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Sophia Hegner [mailto:shegner@MAIL.SDSU.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 3:48 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] average US incomes > > > I don't think so. As far as I know the average isn't over > $70K. $100K-$120K > is high income. It's a fortune as far as I am concerned. > > At 03:24 PM 5/18/99 , you wrote: > >At 09:28 PM 5/18/99 +0100, you wrote: > > > >>Not really Claudia. I probably don't spend any more than, > say the average > >>US family. I believe that the sort of familiy I'm thinking > of would spend > >>about, what, 5% of their income on reading material ; given > an average > >>income of, say, US$100-120K that's only US$5K. > > > >*CHOKE* Average income??? > > > >As an ex-academic (now parttime academic), I'm lucky if my > average income > >was above 30K. I -know- I'm in the wrong field for money, > but really--I > >didn't imagine the average income for the US in anywhere > above 50K... Am I > >that gladly mistaken? > > > >Heather > >=) > > > > > > > >.. > >http://www.zipcon.net/~hlm > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 19:25:37 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: average US incomes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ahh yes, that elusive average American income... A surgeon friend of mine also believed most American households earned $100,000 or so each year. She also had only pedigreed Siamese cats as mousers in her horse barn, and recommended that all her patients do the same. Think she's retired now; dreaming what dreams; on what planet? lightly, lightly, phoebe Phoebe Wray zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 05:29:40 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I hope that anyone on the list going to see the new (possibly overhyped) Star Wars film later today will give us a brief review as soon as they can. I've got a chance to go to see the film followed by a late supper (at exhorbitant cost) on Tuesday in Boston so I'd like to be forewarned enough to weasel out if it's bad. A review in _Time_ recently didn't look that promising. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:51:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: average US incomes In-Reply-To: <199905182244.PAA15706@mail.sdsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I can't quote exact figures, but I doubt if average per household income in the U.S. is more than about $40,000-$50,000 a year, and median household income is probably lower than that. Mike Levy On Tue, 18 May 1999, Sophia Hegner wrote: > I don't think so. As far as I know the average isn't over $70K. $100K-$120K > is high income. It's a fortune as far as I am concerned. > > At 03:24 PM 5/18/99 , you wrote: > >At 09:28 PM 5/18/99 +0100, you wrote: > > > >>Not really Claudia. I probably don't spend any more than, say the average > >>US family. I believe that the sort of familiy I'm thinking of would spend > >>about, what, 5% of their income on reading material ; given an average > >>income of, say, US$100-120K that's only US$5K. > > > >*CHOKE* Average income??? > > > >As an ex-academic (now parttime academic), I'm lucky if my average income > >was above 30K. I -know- I'm in the wrong field for money, but really--I > >didn't imagine the average income for the US in anywhere above 50K... Am I > >that gladly mistaken? > > > >Heather > >=) > > > > > > > >.. > >http://www.zipcon.net/~hlm > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:11:11 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: average US incomes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Earlier I wrote: "I probably don't spend any more than, say the average US family. I believe that the sort of familiy I'm thinking of would spend about, what, 5% of their income on reading material ; given an average income of, say, US$100-120K that's only US$5K" In talking about "average family" I obviously wasn't including *all* families. Clearly my comment "the sort of family I'm thinking of" implies that I'm thinking of *my* type of family since it would be meaningless to 'compare apples and pears'. If I've offended anyone by implicitly suggesting that *my* type of family was also *their* type of family I apologise. I actually plucked the figures out of my head but they are roughly what we used earlier this year in setting salaries to be offered to new recruits (although I wish we could have got people at these levels ). For these, I used Carstairs 1998's figures (for 1997) updated by 6% compounded annually to 1999. My family falls into Carstairs' category 5.7a (includes partners/owners of a business) but I'm giving Category 5.5a (employed salary earners - the 'a' indicates that there are two wage earners in the same category). In Table 27, the mean ('average') income is given as US$96311, giving US$108215 for 1999. Using the median gives US90331, updating to US101496. The '6% compounded annually' is Carstairs' recommended figure (p. ix). Incomes of these levels may also be derived from (US) Bureau of Census Report 'Money income...", although since the categories aren't the same as Carstairs', I've given the lower and upper limits and the mean for you to take your pick. Looking at this report (pt. 18, Table 5 'Selected characteristics of families - total money income'), we see that the mean incomes for households with masters and professional degrees are US$96519 and US$144709 (mean US$120614) respectively. Updating by 4.1% compounded annually to 1999, gives US$104596 and US$156818 (mean US$130707). Using the median we get US$81734 and US$106942 (mean: US$94338) updating to US$88574 and US$115891 (mean: US$102233). For some reason, people with doctorates earn less than professionals but more than Masters'. The '4.1% compounded annually' is my own estimate (from the 1.9% real income growth in the reference and 1.2% real inflation). Some people, of course, have Masters'/professional degrees which are not sought after in the market place; others have highly sought afer degrees but prefer lesser-paying socially-significant jobs. Both these will bring down the income level quite sharply. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) References Carstairs, J C 1998. _Headhunting Abroad : a guide to recruitment ouside the United Kingdom : Part 3: The USA including Puerto Rico)_. London : Harbour Business Reports. 588p. US Bureau of the Census, Current Population Reports, P60-200. _Money income in the United States: 1997 (With separate data on Valuation of Non-cash Benefits), US Government Printing Office, Washington DC, 1998. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:09:37 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: J V Jones Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 18 May 99, at 19:00, jenn mottram wrote: > And I couldn't afford 5% of my income to books (but I suspect I > spend that much anyhow! ;-) ). Jenn I said "reading material" which I meant to include books, magazines/journals and newspapers etc. If you sit down and work out HONESTLY what you actually spend on reading material (as I did earlier this morning), the total will probably shock you as much as it did me. I don't pay for newspapers or magazines/journals even remotely connected with my work because the company gives them to me (they actually belong to our library not to me personally). This includes business mags like _Fortune_ and news mags like _Time_ or _NewsWeek_. BUT for other mags (essentially my hobbies and interests), my annual subscription costs this year will be US840; 6 writing and photography/photojournalism mags like _Writer's Digest_ and _Photojournalism_ alone cost over US$230. The odd one-off newspaper or magazine bought at newstands to read at an airport etc must add considerably to this. I'm an impulse book buyer. I go into a used bookshop with a full wallet "just looking" and come out broke with lots of books; I stop in a airport bookshop for a ballpoint and come out with books; I see ads of a booksale halfway across town and I'm instantly hailing a taxi; someone offers me a complete set of Judge Dee first editions, and my credit card starts begging for mercy. And I doubt if I'm the only life-long "bookaholic" on this list. "Bookaholism" is one disease for which, thank God, there is no cure. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 07:49:07 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/19/99 4:35:36 AM, Mike S wrote: <> Possibly overhyped!!??? I'm amazed by the magnitude of it! Drowning in phantom stuff, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 06:17:08 -0700 Reply-To: camiller@gte.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cathie Miller Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All i know is that the Newsweek review was not very good. i'm pretty ho-hum about the whole thing anyway, and if i had to pay exhorbitant prices, i definitely would expect a miracle from that film. IMO Mike Stanton wrote: > I hope that anyone on the list going to see the new (possibly overhyped) > Star Wars film later today will give us a brief review as soon as they can. > I've got a chance to go to see the film followed by a late supper (at > exhorbitant cost) on Tuesday in Boston so I'd like to be forewarned enough > to weasel out if it's bad. A review in _Time_ recently didn't look that > promising. > > Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:04:38 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: CMUNSON Subject: Re[2]: [*FSFFU*] Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Comments: To: Cathie Miller Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a hurry to see an adolescent male fantasy with only one woman character? No thanks. I'll save my popcorn for Crusade, which starts next month. Did anybody hear Ursula Le Guin on NPR yesterday? Chuck0 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Author: Cathie Miller at Internet Date: 5/19/99 6:17 AM All i know is that the Newsweek review was not very good. i'm pretty ho-hum about the whole thing anyway, and if i had to pay exhorbitant prices, i definitely would expect a miracle from that film. IMO Mike Stanton wrote: > I hope that anyone on the list going to see the new (possibly overhyped) > Star Wars film later today will give us a brief review as soon as they can. > I've got a chance to go to see the film followed by a late supper (at > exhorbitant cost) on Tuesday in Boston so I'd like to be forewarned enough > to weasel out if it's bad. A review in _Time_ recently didn't look that > promising. > > Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:35:21 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Help on 17/18 digest, please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mine arrived truncated part way through the first post, Mike's discussion of Julie Jones' books. Could some kind person please send me the entire thing? TIA. Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:53:54 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christen Smith Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I saw it last night (yes. At midnight. I'm NOT obsessed. Really.) I tried to go in without expecting anything. (I've actually managed to avoid a lot of the hype.) Despite the obvious sexism in the originals, I really enjoy them. And Phantom Menace didn't try to be anything more than the originals did, I was glad to see. There were more women in this one, but unfortunately, still only one female main character. What really peeved me, though, was that there were no women Jedis. Now, it's obviously possible for women to BE Jedis, since Yoda told Luke that Leia could be one. But we have yet to see one. In Phantom Menace they show the Jedi council.. about a dozen or so jedis. No women. Also, most of hte members of the senate that are shown are men. It's not horribly sexist. The women that are in it are strong characters. But, as is typical of almost all movies, the sexism comes in the form of very few women. Really, I think the originals are overrated, but enjoyable, and if you don't expect anything more than that --- CMUNSON wrote: > In a hurry to see an adolescent male fantasy > with only one woman > character? No thanks. I'll save my popcorn for > Crusade, which starts > next month. > > Did anybody hear Ursula Le Guin on NPR > yesterday? > > Chuck0 > > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator > _________________________________ > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Star Wars: The Phantom Menace > Author: Cathie Miller at > Internet > Date: 5/19/99 6:17 AM > > > All i know is that the Newsweek review was not very > good. i'm pretty ho-hum > about the whole thing anyway, and if i had to pay > exhorbitant prices, i > definitely would expect a miracle from that film. > > IMO > > Mike Stanton wrote: > > > I hope that anyone on the list going to see the > new (possibly overhyped) > > Star Wars film later today will give us a brief > review as soon as they can. > > I've got a chance to go to see the film followed > by a late supper (at > > exhorbitant cost) on Tuesday in Boston so I'd like > to be forewarned enough > > to weasel out if it's bad. A review in _Time_ > recently didn't look that > > promising. > > > > Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 14:10:28 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "S.M. Stirling" Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/19/99 11:53:56 AM Mountain Daylight Time, womenofkali@YAHOO.COM writes: << What really peeved me, though, was that there were no women Jedis. Now, it's obviously possible for women to BE Jedis, >> -- actually, there is a woman in the Jedi Council scene -- I noticed that specifically. Wonderful eye candy, that movie. It's now possible to do visually pretty well anything that can be imagined. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 13:22:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace: Stirling Comments: cc: Melissa Holt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Now if only we had more people with imagination who have access to that technology! --Yours for the first serious attempts to film Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, and Phyllis Eisenstein fantasies...if ever... -----Original Message----- From: S.M. Stirling [mailto:JoatSimeon@AOL.COM] In a message dated 5/19/99 11:53:56 AM Mountain Daylight Time, womenofkali@YAHOO.COM writes: << What really peeved me, though, was that there were no women Jedis. Now, it's obviously possible for women to BE Jedis, >> -- actually, there is a woman in the Jedi Council scene -- I noticed that specifically. Wonderful eye candy, that movie. It's now possible to do visually pretty well anything that can be imagined. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:00:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Caroline Couture Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace In-Reply-To: <19990519175354.6296.rocketmail@web135.yahoomail.com> from "Christen Smith" at May 19, 99 10:53:54 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Attribution lost, sorry. > than the originals did, I was glad to see. There were more women in > this one, but unfortunately, still only one female main character. > What really peeved me, though, was that there were no women Jedis. Now, > it's obviously possible for women to BE Jedis, since Yoda told Luke > that Leia could be one. But we have yet to see one. In Phantom Menace > they show the Jedi council.. about a dozen or so jedis. No women. > Also, most of hte members of the senate that are shown are men. > It's not horribly sexist. The women that are in it are strong > characters. But, as is typical of almost all movies, the sexism comes > in the form of very few women. > I'm putting in a bit of spoiler space; I don't describe action but I do describe the female characters I recall seeing. If you don't want to read about them STOP NOW. Just a bit more space. Actually there was *one* woman on the Jedi council; she was sitting next to the "cone-headed" man if I recall correctly. I noticed her because she was one of the few women in the movie. I saw Amidala and her handmaidens, Anakin's mother, serveral women in the senate scene, and one woman Naboo(ian?) pliot. There were also a few "decorative" women with Jabba But I have to agree that there really weren't any strong women characters; I liked Amidala but from the marketing its clear that she's there as the character for the little girls so that they won't be shut out of the action figure market. I think the demographics at the screening I attended brought that out. I was at the 12:15 am showing. The audience was overwhelming male (late teens to mid-twenties I'd guess) with very few women. There were a few children but it was, after all, a midnight show on a school night. My main problem with the movie was that I found it just too derivative; I know old time movie serials had an "arc" but this was just too much like the other movies for my tastes. The music was great however and I'll buy the cd now that I don't care about the spoilers it contained. Caroline ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 17:00:19 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Horror and other fantastic television from 1999-2000 schedule ann ouncements: NBC and ABC Comments: To: Horror in Film and Literature , Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" So, ABC has announced No new speculative fiction programming, although their new David ALLY MCBEAL/PRACTICE/CHICAGO HOPE/PICKET FENCES Kelleyshow starring Gina Gershon sounds disenhearteningly VIP-esque. NBC has one associational program, and two midseason items that fall within our field(s), even if just barely: STARK RAVING MAD -- Tony Award nominee Tony Shalhoub ("Conversations with My Father," "Big Night," "Wings") and Neil Patrick Harris ("Doogie Howser, M.D.," "Rent") return to series television in this new comedy series from Steven Levitan, the creator of NBC's hit comedy "Just Shoot Me." Harris stars as Henry NcNeely, an obsessively meticulous book editor assigned to work with the dark and chaotic best-selling horror writer Ian Stark (Shalhoub). As Henry struggles to overcome his aversion for Stark's practical jokes and irascible, macabre temperament, he must help Stark break through the writer's block that threatens to turn the author into a one-book wonder. Forcing himself into Stark's "netherworld," a spooky loft apartment located above a downtown restaurant, Henry finds their collaboration hampered by the distractions of Stark's bizarre writing assistant, Jake Donovan (Eddie McClintock, "Felicity"), and Maggie Cooper (Jessica Cauffiel, "The Out of Towners"), the waitress/actress from downstairs. Multi-Emmy winner James Burrows ("Cheers," NBC's "Frasier," NBC's "Friends") directed the pilot written by Levitan, who is also the executive producer of this production from Steven Levitan Productions in association with 20th Century Fox Television. NBC MIDSEASON SERIES FOR 1999-2000 GOD, THE DEVIL AND BOB -- Centering on the modern day problems of an ordinary Detroit auto worker, this half-hour animated comedy features a stellar cast including the voices of Emmy winner James Garner ("The Rockford Files"), Oscar nominee Robert Downey, Jr. ("Chaplin"), French Stewart (NBC's "3rd Rock from the Sun") and Emmy winner Laurie Metcalf ("Roseanne"). In a deal with the Devil (Downey, Jr.) Bob Alman (Stewart) has been hand-picked by God (Garner) to prove that mankind is still worth saving. As Bob copes with the daily stress of work and family, which includes his wife, Donna (Metcalf), his teenage daughter, Megan (Emmy winner Nancy Cartwright, "The Simpsons"), and five-year-old son, Andy (Kath Soucie, "Rugrats, The Movie"), he must wage a constant battle between good and evil in order to save the world. Unfortunately for Bob, he's not quite sure what God expects him to do, and he's easily influenced by the Devil -- who pops up at the most unexpected moments and in a variety of human guises. "God, the Devil and Bob" is from NBC Studios, Inc., Vanity Logo Productions and CW Animation, LLC. Matthew Carlson ("Men Behaving Badly") is the executive producer/writer and Harvey Myman ("Men Behaving Badly"), Marcy Carsey, Tom Werner and Caryn Mandabach (shared credits for "3rd Rock from the Sun," "Roseanne," "Cosby") are executive producers. THE OTHERS -- This suspenseful one-hour drama series, laced with humor and romance, focuses on a diverse group of people bound by their powers to connect with the spirit world. John Brancato ("The Game," "The Net") and Michael Ferris ("The Game," "The Net") are the writers and executive producers of this paranormal thriller starring Julianne Nicholson ("One True Thing") as Marian Kitt, a nave co-ed adjusting to her new academic and social life after transferring to a New England college. Her life-long gift for seeing into the past and the afterlife attracts the attention of "The Others," a secret society whose members are linked by their various abilities to reach into the supernatural realm. While she grapples with her "gift," she reluctantly joins this group, which leads her down a path of mystery and adventure. Starring as members of "The Others" are Gabriel Macht ("The Object of My Affection"), Crider ("Murder One"), Bill Cobbs ("I'll Fly Away") and John Billingsley ("The Sky's on Fire"). Mick Garris ("The Stand," ABC's "The Shining") directed the pilot of this production from DreamWorks Television in association with NBC Studios. MEDIA CONTACTS: Shirley Powell, Senior Vice President, NBC Entertainment Publicity, 818-840-3511 Rebecca Marks, Vice President, NBC Entertainment Publicity, 818-840-3914 Curt King, Director, Primetime Series, NBC Entertainment Publicity, 818-840-3659 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:12:54 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tanya Bouwman Subject: Re: average US incomes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This not a thread I can resist. First as to average income--My husband and I live in a wealthy community in Massachusetts. We have recently learned that the average income for our town is $92,000. The average house costs over $300,000. We are so lucky have our housing provided by my husband's employer, otherwise we would never be able to afford to live here. (And our income is around $50,000) Second, to spending 5% of income on books--Oh I wish! I feel like I'm taking food out of my children's mouths when I spend money on a book. It's a good thing I got most of books when I was young, unmarried, and without children. I would rarely, if ever, get new books if not for the fact that my father works at a bookstore! Thank goodness for well-stocked libraries and inter-library loans, otherwise I'd go nuts with nothing new to read for months! Tanya :) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:05:39 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: average US incomes: summary Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Judging by this list, I was completely wrong about the "average income for US families which contain one or more book-buying feminist sf/f readers". To summarise the public and private notes I've had: the mean income appears to be US$ 46229 (median US$ 48407). But see below. Normally if we look at a lot of income reports, we find that some people have low incomes, most people have moderate incomes and a very few people have very high ones. So if we plot a graph of incomes, the shape of the curve isn't symmetrical; it's distorted and the "bulge" or peak is pushed to the low income side of the graph (called "highly skewed" by statisticians). In such cases, the median income is always *lower* than the mean income. In the figures I give for this list, the median is *higher* than the *mean* so this indicates that most of the people who reported have incomes which are higher than the list average and that the lower income members have remained mute. Judging by US Bureau of Census distribution curves, I would *suggest* that the list mean income is about US$42000 (median US$38000). For your amusement: I had our program "The Venerable Bede" search through the postings since lst June 98 to find out whether we could estimate who had the highest paying job. I'm not going to give a name but the person concerned is doing a job which if she worked for a particular German civil engineering firm (only figures I have for her job title) would earn her US$280K (exclusive of bonuses). Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:06:38 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Vance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 19 May 99, at 13:22, Todd Mason wrote: > Jack Vance Is this a feminist sf/f writer? I've often seen his books (especially _Nightlamp_) in shops but haven't bothered to buy. Have I been ignoring "diamonds in my own backyard"? Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:12:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Jack Vance: Stanton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Vance is not to my recollection particularly pro- nor antifeminist, arguably (perhaps inarguably) more jaundiced than average in his view of humanity as a whole. He is one of the best prosaists in speculative fiction--a disciple of Clark Ashton Smith who has clearly surpassed his model. I'm not familiar with NIGHTLAMP, but can recommend THE DYING EARTH, THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD (which is set in the same world, but focuses upon the thief Cugel, self-dubbed "the Clever," and a few other stories written since about Cugel collected in a Baen book with OVERWORLD as CUGEL THE CLEVER), and much of his shorter work, such as the Hugo-winning "The Dragon Masters". I've been meaning to get around to reading THE LANGUAGES OF PAO, LYONESSE and THE GREEN PEARL for a while...having them in the same state with me might help. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Stanton [mailto:m_stanton@POSTMASTER.CO.UK] On 19 May 99, at 13:22, Todd Mason wrote: > Jack Vance Is this a feminist sf/f writer? I've often seen his books (especially _Nightlamp_) in shops but haven't bothered to buy. Have I been ignoring "diamonds in my own backyard"? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:40:51 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: J.V. Jones original trilogy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike: I tend to agree with you that the original trilogy really must be read as one long story, with the second volume not standing alone at all well. That said, I very much liked the fact all three books were in print in the US within 16 months -- really an extraordinary schedule, which could actually allow people to read them as they came out without a significant loss of the story line in between, IMO. For reviews of all of Julie's books (she is a local author, and a good friend as well as a good writer) check out the SF reviews on our web site (soon to be updated). Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:48:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Looking for feminist fantasy?: Stanton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Aside from the many obvious and less-so suggestions made so far, let me recommend yet again A. A. Attanasio, a profeminist male writer whose work is at least as easy to pick up in the UK as in his native land (KINGDOM OF THE GRAIL and THE MOON'S WIFE [not the author's title] particularly, despite the patriarchal ring of both titles!) and all the short fiction I've read so far by Rachel Pollack. And Fritz Leiber and Phyllis Eisenstein, and... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:50:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Michael Marc Levy Subject: Re: Vance In-Reply-To: <80256777.0028889E.00@nun.postmaster.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Generally speaking Vance's politics is conservative or, perhaps, libertarian. He's strongly opposed to all elements of, for example, the welfare state, and didn't have much respect for the counter-culture of the 70s. Actually he tends to satirize almost any organization or movement that appears in one of his books. His protagonists tend to be cynical loners, his own extremely ironic version of the Heinlein Competent Man sort of hero. His characters are often ethically ambiguous, and frequently seem to believe that the ends justify the means. Often they're bent on revenge against clearly defined villains. Rather than calling him a misogynist, I'd define him as a misanthrope very much in the style of Jonathan Swift, although many, perhaps most of his portraits of female characters are negative. Having said all of this, I'll also admit that I think he's a very talented, very funny writer. He writes some of the best ironic dialog in the field and is a superb stylist. Nightlamp is an excellent recent novel. If I remember correctly, he received the Hugo for two earlier short novels, The Dragon Masters and The Last Castle. The Dying Earth, To Live Forever, and Araminta Station are other strong novels. Mike Levy Michael M. Levy levym@uwstout.edu Department of English levymm@uwec.edu University of Wisconsin-Stout off. ph: 715-834-6533 Menomonie, WI 54751 hm. ph: 715-834-6533 On Thu, 20 May 1999, Mike Stanton wrote: > On 19 May 99, at 13:22, Todd Mason wrote: > > > Jack Vance > > Is this a feminist sf/f writer? I've often seen his books (especially > _Nightlamp_) in shops but haven't bothered to buy. Have I been ignoring > "diamonds in my own backyard"? > > > Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:18:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Vance: Levy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Michael Marc Levy [mailto:levymm@UWEC.EDU] Actually he tends to satirize almost any organization or movement that appears in one of his books. His protagonists tend to be cynical loners, his own extremely ironic version of the Heinlein Competent Man sort of hero. His characters are often ethically ambiguous, and frequently seem to believe that the ends justify the means. ---I think this last is a function of the Swiftian satire you ascribe to Vance, rather than any kind of endorsement (his characters will natter on as hypocritically as their real-life counterparts, when it seems advantageous to do so). I suspect you suspect the same. Vance's Desperate, Cunning Man (usually) may well be in part a lampoon of RAH's trope. Suspicion of all organizations and movements is not only reasonable but necessary, of course. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:41:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: average US incomes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit According to the Bureau of the Census, the average household income for a family of 4 is $50,000--doesn't say how many in the household are working--could be 2 FTE and 2 teens at Mickey D's. Marsha Valance Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells Street Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436 >>> Heather MacLean 05/18 5:24 PM >>> At 09:28 PM 5/18/99 +0100, you wrote: >Not really Claudia. I probably don't spend any more than, say the average >US family. I believe that the sort of familiy I'm thinking of would spend >about, what, 5% of their income on reading material ; given an average >income of, say, US$100-120K that's only US$5K. *CHOKE* Average income??? As an ex-academic (now parttime academic), I'm lucky if my average income was above 30K. I -know- I'm in the wrong field for money, but really--I didn't imagine the average income for the US in anywhere above 50K... Am I that gladly mistaken? Heather =) .. http://www.zipcon.net/~hlm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:05:43 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Green Subject: Re: average US incomes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Old joke: a priveleged child begins a story: "Once upon a time there was a very poor family. The father was very poor, the mother was very poor, the children were very poor, but poorest of all were the three butlers." Frances On Tue, 18 May 1999 19:25:37 EDT Phoebe Wray writes: >Ahh yes, that elusive average American income... A surgeon friend of >mine >also believed most American households earned $100,000 or so each >year. She >also had only pedigreed Siamese cats as mousers in her horse barn, >and >recommended that all her patients do the same. > >Think she's retired now; dreaming what dreams; on what planet? > >lightly, lightly, >phoebe > >Phoebe Wray >zozie@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:03:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Vance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jack Vance is probably the premier stylist wriing SF today--he was a major influence on Roger Zelazny and George R.R. Martin, to name just two. His books aren't actively feminist--both men and women are formed by their various cultures, which may or may not lead to strong female roles. His protagonist is usually a young man--the format is often the quest motif. You read Jack Vance for the quality of his writing and and his imagination--or I do, at least. Marsha Valance Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells Street Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436 >>> Mike Stanton 05/20 2:06 AM >>> On 19 May 99, at 13:22, Todd Mason wrote: > Jack Vance Is this a feminist sf/f writer? I've often seen his books (especially _Nightlamp_) in shops but haven't bothered to buy. Have I been ignoring "diamonds in my own backyard"? Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:02:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace I thought THE PHANTOM MENACE was great! I've seen it twice. I went to the midnight showing in Atlanta with my kids, and they loved it, too. Then we went to see it again the next afternoon. It gets better each time. Queen Amidala is an excellent strong female character. I think she lets herself be led a little too much by her male senator, but then she decides to leave against his advice to be with her people (I don't think that reveals too much of the plot). Did anyone notice that all the Jedi on the Council were male? Every master was male and every apprentice was male. The only other female was a female protocol droid who served drinks :-(. So, I'm not sure whether this film is a feminist victory or not. What do you think? Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com // /// \\\ \\ cms@star-nets.com cms@romancatholic.org Delay not your conversion to the LORD, Put it not off from day to day Ecclesiasticus/Ben Sira 5:8 Read the mailing list Bible@dragon.com Read the mailing list Literature@dragon.com Read the mailing list nt-trans@dragon.com (Greek New Testament) Read the mailing list ot-trans@dragon.com (Hebrew Old Testament) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:18:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: The most annoying thing about the Nicholls/Clute ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SF Comments: To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ...(and, by extension, the Clute/Grant ENCY OF FANTASY) is the preference given to novelists and others who have published books, over those who have not yet had their work collected. While one would think that any significant writer in the field has published at least one collection, this is not completely true, at least when one weighs, say, the three-decade career of Vance Aandahl, mostly if not entirely as a contributor to F&SF, is not considered in the E OF SF edition I have, versus someone who has published only # 763 of PERRY RHODAN, only #95 in the THOSE DAMNED TRIBBLES series, or a single dystopian vision of the world run by Jewish Freemasons through their infernal ether-harvesting combine (1920 dos), who gets their admittedly small squib. A few people, such as Robert Rohrer, perhaps the most prolific of the teen contributors to the professional SF magazines of the early '60s, may be more significant for what their qualified success said about the market of the time than for their work itself, but their influence (even in such odd ways as being referenced blind by Kurt Vonnegut in his rather famous essay "Science Fiction" [reprinted in WAMPETERS, FOMA, AND GRANFALLOONS]) is certainly worthy of some note, if the kind of extremely peripheral people I lampoon above are (I don't have my copy of E OF SF at hand to see if there is a Rohrer entry, but I remember there not being one...I definitely would like one on F&SF mystery-contributor Wilma Shore, or Calvin W. Demmon if I remember his name correctly, who I believe was an "actifan" and published some gratifying vignettes in F&SF during Avram Davidson's tenure as editor. Obviously, F&SF is the champion of bringing in the odd-folks-out). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:35:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: The most annoying thing about the Nicholls/Clute EN CYCLOPEDIA OF SF Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Let's try "weighs how Aandahl's career is treated versus..." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 05:42:18 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: J.V. Jones original trilogy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 19 May 99, at 19:40, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > I tend to agree with you that the original trilogy really > must be read as one long story, with the second volume not > standing alone at all well. That said, I very much liked > the fact all three books were in print in the US within 16 > months -- really an extraordinary schedule, which could > actually allow people to read them as they came out > without a significant loss of the story line in > between, IMO. Thanks Maryelizabeth. I like Jones and I'm going to keep up with her books. I like to "catch" an author early on so that making a complete collection of his/her works is neither too difficult nor too costly. She's a "fun" author with an unusually powerful ability to bring landscapes alive and to people them with interesting creatures. Her _A Cavern of Black Ice_ is, I think, by far her best, most "mature" book. I think succeeding books will improve on this; if so, we're looking a major talent. Has she written any travel books? Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 05:40:25 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Vance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks for the comments on Jack Vance. I've managed to get _Night lamp_ and _Ports of call_ (must be his latest). Hopefully they'll enliven the most boring airtrips in Europe (to Dublin on Thursday night and London on Friday night). Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 01:41:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:02 PM 20/05/99 -0500, you wrote: >I thought THE PHANTOM MENACE was great! I've seen it twice. I went to >the midnight showing in Atlanta with my kids, and they loved it, too. >Then we went to see it again the next afternoon. It gets better each time. >Queen Amidala is an excellent strong female character. I think she lets >herself be led a little too much by her male senator, but then she decides >to leave against his advice to be with her people (I don't think that >reveals too much of the plot). Did anyone notice that all the Jedi on >the Council were male? Every master was male and every apprentice was >male. The only other female was a female protocol droid who served drinks :-(. >So, I'm not sure whether this film is a feminist victory or not. >What do you think? Wait, wasn't there also a female Twi'lek Jedi on the Council? You know, the aliens with the head-tails? I seem to recall seeing a still of the trailer scene in which Anakin goes before them, and there she was in the background. Well, okay, it's not exactly the spotlight, but still, I'm sure she was there. I could be wrong; the actual film hasn't premiered yet around here. Also, it's been confirmed that a female fighter pilot by the handle of Bravo Five - played by Celia Imrie, whom any Highlander fans will remember as "Kate" from the first movie - will be in the upcoming movies, which is something to look forward to! Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:17:38 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marianne Reddin Aldrich Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Verily verily I say unto you: There were at least 2 human female Jedis on the council (I'm not Star-Wars educated enough to recognize non-human females unless they are made 'obvious'.) I *would* have liked to see one of them given a line or two, instead of cone-headed alien though. It's like they put them in there for show, but didn't want to actually let them say anything. Much like the little kids on Tatooine. They were mixed male/female, but only the boys were given lines. Sigh. Ah well, I still enjoyed the movie, and will be seeing it again. Marianne > >At 05:02 PM 20/05/99 -0500, you wrote: > >I thought THE PHANTOM MENACE was great! I've seen it twice. I went to > >the midnight showing in Atlanta with my kids, and they loved it, too. > >Then we went to see it again the next afternoon. It gets better each >time. > >Queen Amidala is an excellent strong female character. I think she lets > >herself be led a little too much by her male senator, but then she >decides > >to leave against his advice to be with her people (I don't think that > >reveals too much of the plot). Did anyone notice that all the Jedi on > >the Council were male? Every master was male and every apprentice was > >male. The only other female was a female protocol droid who served >drinks :-(. > >So, I'm not sure whether this film is a feminist victory or not. > >What do you think? > >Wait, wasn't there also a female Twi'lek Jedi on the Council? You know, the >aliens with the head-tails? I seem to recall seeing a still of the trailer >scene in which Anakin goes before them, and there she was in the >background. >Well, okay, it's not exactly the spotlight, but still, I'm sure she was >there. I could be wrong; the actual film hasn't premiered yet around here. > >Also, it's been confirmed that a female fighter pilot by the handle of >Bravo >Five - played by Celia Imrie, whom any Highlander fans will remember as >"Kate" from the first movie - will be in the upcoming movies, which is >something to look forward to! > >Sant. > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:44:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Fox, UPN, and CBS 99-00 season announcements and 26 May POLITICAL LY INCORRECT Comments: To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT , HORROR@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Comments: cc: Frederic Bush , "jecedit@aol.com" , "alektra@aol.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" On May 26, the lineup for the political discussion show POLITICALLY INCORRECT includes Harlan Ellison, illusionist/actor/fringefan Penn Jilette, punk/publisher Henry "Rollins," and model Cindy Margolis. And here's what three of the nets are offering in fantastic-fiction television...FBC first... HARSH REALM - Chris Carter, the award-winning creator of "The X-Files" and "Millennium," steps into a new arena with another innovative, ground-breaking television event -- HARSH REALM. Based on the comic book series, HARSH REALM explores a highly-advanced virtual reality world -- where anything is possible. After seeing the horrors of war in Sarajevo, Lt. Thomas Hobbes (Scott Bairstow) is finally ready to settle down with his fianci Sophie (Samantha Mathis). But the military has one more assignment for Hobbes: test out the newest in military combat training -- a top secret computer simulation known as "Harsh Realm." Inside Harsh Realm, Hobbes immediately finds himself fighting for his life, forming an uneasy alliance with a virtual character, Mike Pinnochio (D.B. Sweeney). But as he pursues his "mission" -- beating the highest scoring player, Omar Santiago (Terry O' Quinn) -- Hobbes begins to realize that Harsh Realm is more than just a game. And what's worse: he's trapped inside this world, which is without rules and without mercy. ***and if that wasn't enough, Fox has in reserve (to replacement early failures): DARK ANGEL - DARK ANGEL, a futuristic drama from Academy Award-winner James Cameron ("Titanic," "True Lies," "Terminator," "T2") and Emmy Award-winner Charles Eglee ("Murder One," "Moonlighting"), stars Jessica Alba ("Never Been Kissed," "10 Things I Hate About You," "Idle Hands") in the role of Max, a genetically-enhanced human prototype hunted by her former military handlers through the edgy, underground street life of 21st century San Francisco. Eighteen-year-old Max is aided in her quest -- both to avoid capture and reunite with her "siblings" scattered in the aftermath of their escape -- by Logan Clarke, an idealistic cyber-journalist battling repression and corruption in post-apocalypse America. Max initially resists Logan's attempts to enlist her unique skills and abilities in his struggle, preferring instead to maintain the ultra-cool demeanor of detached, alienated youth. Eventually, Logan calls her to the higher part of her being and Max becomes his samurai as the pair takes on the ruthless power-brokers of the new millennium. Alternately dark, moving, funny and irreverent, Max and Logan's odyssey leads them closer to the secret of her past, deepening and complicating their relationship in the process. Production Company: Lightstorm Television; Executive Producers: James Cameron, Charles Eglee ***UPN gets nostalgic with the Austin Powers and Will "James West" Smith fans:: "SECRET AGENT MAN" (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET/PT) This new, ultra-cool retro spy series, brimming with a healthy dose of confidence, style and wit, centers on a trio of covert, jet-setting agents of P.O.I.S.E., a top-secret arm of the government that monitors high-stakes global espionage. There's Monk, a guy who does it with panache, high-tech gadgetry, and if necessary, physical strength. He's partnered with the highly skilled, no-nonsense beauty Holliday and together, they shepherd the agency's newest recruit, Parker, whose straight-laced manner is in stark contrast to Monk's freewheeling style. Starring are Costas Mandylor ("Picket Fences") as Monk; Dondre T. Whitfield ("Between Brothers") as Parker; and Dina Meyer ("Starship Troopers") as Holliday. The executive producers are Barry Sonnenfeld ("Get Shorty," "Men in Black," "Wild Wild West"), Barry Josephson ("Wild Wild West," "The Last Boy Scout"), Richard Regen and Rick Kellard. The series is a production of Sonnenfeld Josephson Worldwide Entertainment in association with Columbia TriStar Television. ***UPN also threatens (one night later than this season, and with a new intracorporate title, to make room for Wrestling, itself very kinda associational these days--and PLEASE NOTE THE LAST SENTENCE of the following paragraph, and shudder, ye who remember PROJECT MOONBASE): Fridays BLOCKBUSTER VIDEO'S SHOCKWAVE CINEMA (8:00-10:00 p.m., ET/PT) UPN brings fantasy, science fiction and thrilling adventure -- three highly successful motion pictures genres -- together under one banner with a brand new slate of 22 original, innovative television movies. Paramount Network Television, Viacom Productions, Wilshire Court Productions and Warner Bros. International bring to UPN a mix of creative talent including Neil Moritz ("Cruel Intentions", "I Know What You Did Last Summer"); Robert Duncan McNeill ("Star Trek: Voyager"); Bennett Cohen ("Chameleon"); Ian Barry ("Inferno"); Parker Stevenson ("Baywatch"); and Glen Larson, creator of "The Six Million Dollar Man," who brings the next generation of bionics to life with "Platinum Man." Also scheduled, from the legendary science fiction author Robert Heinlein ("Starship Troopers"), his only original television screenplay "The Novo Bomb." And CBS regurgitates thus: NOW & AGAIN (Friday, 9:00-10:00 PM, ET/PT), created by Glenn Gordon Caron ("Moonlighting"), is an action-drama about a schleppy middle-aged insurance salesman who is literally rebuilt into a six-million dollar man for a new age. When a freak accident leaves Ben (Eric Close) Wiseman's body completely obliterated (with the exception of his brain, which remains fully intact), the government covertly makes him an offer he can't refuse -- they'll save his life if he agrees to become a government agent. With his brain transplanted into the scientifically perfected body of a rugged guy 20 years younger, Ben must now carry out missions for his country as dictated by his employer, Theo (Dennis Haysbert). Unfortunately, for security reasons, Ben is also told he must give up his old life, including his wife, Lisa (Margaret Colin), daughter, Heather (Heather Matarazzo), and friend and former co-worker, Roger (Gerrit Graham). Although Ben belongs to the government now, he still retains one major weakness -- he and those around him are realizing that the new Ben can't stay away from his old life. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:04:06 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: Fox, UPN,and CBS 99-00 season announcements and 26 May POLITICAL LYINCORRECT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I assume the descriptions are verbatim from network sources? Todd Mason wrote: > On May 26, the lineup for the political discussion show POLITICALLY > INCORRECT includes Harlan Ellison, illusionist/actor/fringefan Penn Jilette, > punk/publisher Henry "Rollins," and model Cindy Margolis. > > And here's what three of the nets are offering in fantastic-fiction > television...FBC first... > > HARSH REALM - Chris Carter, the award-winning creator of "The X-Files" and > "Millennium," steps into a new arena with another innovative, > ground-breaking television event -- HARSH REALM. Based on the comic book > series, HARSH REALM explores a highly-advanced virtual reality world -- > where anything is possible. After seeing the horrors of war in Sarajevo, > Lt. Thomas Hobbes (Scott Bairstow) is finally ready to settle down with his > fianci Sophie (Samantha Mathis). But the military has one more assignment > for Hobbes: test out the newest in military combat training -- a top secret > computer simulation known as "Harsh Realm." Inside Harsh Realm, Hobbes > immediately finds himself fighting for his life, forming an uneasy alliance > with a virtual character, Mike Pinnochio (D.B. Sweeney). But as he pursues > his "mission" -- beating the highest scoring player, Omar Santiago (Terry O' > Quinn) -- Hobbes begins to realize that Harsh Realm is more than just a > game. And what's worse: he's trapped inside this world, which is without > rules and without mercy. > > ***and if that wasn't enough, Fox has in reserve (to replacement early > failures): > > DARK ANGEL - DARK ANGEL, a futuristic drama from Academy Award-winner James > Cameron ("Titanic," "True Lies," "Terminator," "T2") and Emmy Award-winner > Charles Eglee ("Murder One," "Moonlighting"), stars Jessica Alba ("Never > Been Kissed," "10 Things I Hate About You," "Idle Hands") in the role of > Max, a genetically-enhanced human prototype hunted by her former military > handlers through the edgy, underground street life of 21st century San > Francisco. Eighteen-year-old Max is aided in her quest -- both to avoid > capture and reunite with her "siblings" scattered in the aftermath of their > escape -- by Logan Clarke, an idealistic cyber-journalist battling > repression and corruption in post-apocalypse America. Max initially resists > Logan's attempts to enlist her unique skills and abilities in his struggle, > preferring instead to maintain the ultra-cool demeanor of detached, > alienated youth. Eventually, Logan calls her to the higher part of her > being and Max becomes his samurai as the pair takes on the ruthless > power-brokers of the new millennium. Alternately dark, moving, funny and > irreverent, Max and Logan's odyssey leads them closer to the secret of her > past, deepening and complicating their relationship in the process. > Production Company: Lightstorm Television; Executive Producers: James > Cameron, Charles Eglee > > ***UPN gets nostalgic with the Austin Powers and Will "James West" Smith > fans:: > > "SECRET AGENT MAN" (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET/PT) This new, ultra-cool retro spy > series, brimming with a healthy dose of confidence, style and wit, centers > on a trio of covert, jet-setting agents of P.O.I.S.E., a top-secret arm of > the government that monitors high-stakes global espionage. There's Monk, a > guy who does it with panache, high-tech gadgetry, and if necessary, physical > strength. He's partnered with the highly skilled, no-nonsense beauty > Holliday and together, they shepherd the agency's newest recruit, Parker, > whose straight-laced manner is in stark contrast to Monk's freewheeling > style. Starring are Costas Mandylor ("Picket Fences") as Monk; Dondre T. > Whitfield ("Between Brothers") as Parker; and Dina Meyer ("Starship > Troopers") as Holliday. The executive producers are Barry Sonnenfeld ("Get > Shorty," "Men in Black," "Wild Wild West"), Barry Josephson ("Wild Wild > West," "The Last Boy Scout"), Richard Regen and Rick Kellard. The series is > a production of Sonnenfeld Josephson Worldwide Entertainment in association > with Columbia TriStar Television. > > ***UPN also threatens (one night later than this season, and with a new > intracorporate title, to make room for Wrestling, itself very kinda > associational these days--and PLEASE NOTE THE LAST SENTENCE of the following > paragraph, and shudder, ye who remember PROJECT MOONBASE): > > Fridays > BLOCKBUSTER VIDEO'S SHOCKWAVE CINEMA (8:00-10:00 p.m., ET/PT) UPN brings > fantasy, science fiction and thrilling adventure -- three highly successful > motion pictures genres -- together under one banner with a brand new slate > of 22 original, innovative television movies. Paramount Network Television, > Viacom Productions, Wilshire Court Productions and Warner Bros. > International bring to UPN a mix of creative talent including Neil Moritz > ("Cruel Intentions", "I Know What You Did Last Summer"); Robert Duncan > McNeill ("Star Trek: Voyager"); Bennett Cohen ("Chameleon"); Ian Barry > ("Inferno"); Parker Stevenson ("Baywatch"); and Glen Larson, creator of "The > Six Million Dollar Man," who brings the next generation of bionics to life > with "Platinum Man." Also scheduled, from the legendary science fiction > author Robert Heinlein ("Starship Troopers"), his only original television > screenplay "The Novo Bomb." > > And CBS regurgitates thus: > > NOW & AGAIN (Friday, 9:00-10:00 PM, ET/PT), created by Glenn > Gordon Caron ("Moonlighting"), is an action-drama about a > schleppy middle-aged insurance salesman who is literally rebuilt > into a six-million dollar man for a new age. When a freak accident > leaves Ben (Eric Close) Wiseman's body completely obliterated (with > the exception of his brain, which remains fully intact), the > government covertly makes him an offer he can't refuse -- they'll > save his life if he agrees to become a government agent. With his > brain transplanted into the scientifically perfected body of a > rugged guy 20 years younger, Ben must now carry out missions for > his country as dictated by his employer, Theo (Dennis Haysbert). > Unfortunately, for security reasons, Ben is also told he must give > up his old life, including his wife, Lisa (Margaret Colin), > daughter, Heather (Heather Matarazzo), and friend and former > co-worker, Roger (Gerrit Graham). Although Ben belongs to the > government now, he still retains one major weakness -- he and those > around him are realizing that the new Ben can't stay away from his > old life. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:19:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Fox, UPN,and CBS 99-00 season announcements: Samuel son MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yes. Remarkable what people are paid to do, isn't it? -----Original Message----- From: Dave Samuelson [mailto:dnsmlsn@CSULB.EDU] I assume the descriptions are verbatim from network sources? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 18:19:13 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Vance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 20 May 99, at 11:03, Marsha Valance wrote: > Jack Vance is probably the premier stylist wriing SF today--he > was a major influence on Roger Zelazny and George R.R. Martin, > to name just two. His books aren't actively feminist--both men > and women are formed by their various cultures, which may or > may not lead to strong female roles. His protagonist is usually a > young man--the format is often the quest motif. You read Jack > Vance for the quality of his writing and and his imagination--or I > do, at least. Marsha I've only read one of his books (_Night lamp_) but I was astonished at, and intrigued by, his writing. The comments you and others have made were 100% correct but one thing nobody mentioned is that he's instantly addictive. By the time I'd finished "Towards the far edge of the Cornu Sector of Ophiuchus, Robert Palmer's Star shone brilliant white, its corona flaring with films of blue, red and green color", I was hooked. By the time I'd started "Hilyer and Althea Fath were Associate Professors at Thanet Institute on the world Gallingale..." I'd decided to start collecting his work; even the thought of having to put up more shelves isn't going to deter me . "Actively feminist" or not, I was impressed by his development of the character of Skirlet (Shkirazaksein) Hutsenreiter who, I thought, was a heroine worthy of any feminist work. Someone said to me privately that his heros tend to be cold, suspicious loners but that certainly not my impression of Jaro Fath. And this impression is certainly borne out by the very warm relationship that develops between the four protagonists (Jaro, Skirlet, Gaing and Maihac). Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:32:33 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Vance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Mike Stanton wrote: >Thanks for the comments on Jack Vance. I've managed to get _Night lamp_ >and _Ports of call_ (must be his latest). Hopefully they'll enliven the >most boring airtrips in Europe (to Dublin on Thursday night and London on >Friday night). Your "trip" wouldn't have something to do with the World Cup Cricket would it? My husband hates travelling but, *purely by coincidence*, he just happened to have important business near Lords on the 14th, in Canterbury on the 19th, near the Oval tomorrow and at Trent Bridge on the 25th. If England get into the Super Six, I won't see hide nor hair of him in June. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:39:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Vance: Stanton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, Mike, get ready to drop a bundle, because Vance has also been remarkably prolific, and even his minor work tends toward elegance when it doesn't revel in it. A bookcase rather than a shelf...and one that might have to include issues of THRILLING WONDER STORIES and PLANET STORIES among others if you choose to be a completist (I don't think all of his early work was reprinted in book form; he's also written some crime fiction). Really, also try Attanasio, and Pollack's short fiction. The best fake Vance I've ever read was a short story by Glen Cook, most of whose books show a debt, but in the one story in the March 1978 F&SF he had it cold... -----Original Message----- From: Mike Stanton [mailto:m_stanton@POSTMASTER.CO.UK] I've only read one of his books (_Night lamp_) but I was astonished at, and intrigued by, his writing. The comments you and others have made were 100% correct but one thing nobody mentioned is that he's instantly addictive. By the time I'd finished "Towards the far edge of the Cornu Sector of Ophiuchus, Robert Palmer's Star shone brilliant white, its corona flaring with films of blue, red and green color", I was hooked. By the time I'd started "Hilyer and Althea Fath were Associate Professors at Thanet Institute on the world Gallingale..." I'd decided to start collecting his work; even the thought of having to put up more shelves isn't going to deter me . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:56:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Vance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike, I wouldn't call his protagonists cold and suspicious, but rather naive young men thrust into antagonistic situations which force them to become wary--a hero's journey/coming-of-age motif, in fact. I highly recommend him--in fact, I named a horse after him. Marsha Valance Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells Street Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436 >>> Mike Stanton 05/21 12:19 PM >>> On 20 May 99, at 11:03, Marsha Valance wrote: > Jack Vance is probably the premier stylist wriing SF today--he > was a major influence on Roger Zelazny and George R.R. Martin, > to name just two. His books aren't actively feminist--both men > and women are formed by their various cultures, which may or > may not lead to strong female roles. His protagonist is usually a > young man--the format is often the quest motif. You read Jack > Vance for the quality of his writing and and his imagination--or I > do, at least. Marsha I've only read one of his books (_Night lamp_) but I was astonished at, and intrigued by, his writing. The comments you and others have made were 100% correct but one thing nobody mentioned is that he's instantly addictive. By the time I'd finished "Towards the far edge of the Cornu Sector of Ophiuchus, Robert Palmer's Star shone brilliant white, its corona flaring with films of blue, red and green color", I was hooked. By the time I'd started "Hilyer and Althea Fath were Associate Professors at Thanet Institute on the world Gallingale..." I'd decided to start collecting his work; even the thought of having to put up more shelves isn't going to deter me . "Actively feminist" or not, I was impressed by his development of the character of Skirlet (Shkirazaksein) Hutsenreiter who, I thought, was a heroine worthy of any feminist work. Someone said to me privately that his heros tend to be cold, suspicious loners but that certainly not my impression of Jaro Fath. And this impression is certainly borne out by the very warm relationship that develops between the four protagonists (Jaro, Skirlet, Gaing and Maihac). Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:07:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Vance: Valance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This, of course, is true of some of the work, but not, for example, of the Cugel stories...but I doubt you'd ever name a horse Cugel (even if lightly dusted with sugar and cinnamon)... -----Original Message----- From: Marsha Valance [mailto:Mvalan@MPL.ORG] I wouldn't call his protagonists cold and suspicious, but rather naive young men thrust into antagonistic situations which force them to become wary--a hero's journey/coming-of-age motif, in fact. I highly recommend him--in fact, I named a horse after him. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:23:06 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Vance: Stanton Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 21 May 99, at 12:39, Todd Mason wrote: > Well, Mike, get ready to drop a bundle, because Vance has > also been remarkably prolific, and even his minor work tends > toward elegance when it doesn't revel in it. A bookcase > rather than a shelf...and one that might > have to include issues of THRILLING WONDER STORIES and > PLANET STORIES among others if you choose to be a completist ... Todd I think that trying to be a completist with Vance would be an impossible task. I just don't have enough time during my US trips to track down "obscure" books etc. The trouble it took me to get a complete collection of Cherryh has, I must admit, cooled my ardour for another such effort; it's taken me weeks to get up the courage to tackle MZB. But still, I expect to get a representative collection of Vance's work over the three weeks that I'm in Boston. It's not the money that worries me as much as trying to find the time to read the stuff. I don't know where you and people like you get the time to keep up to date. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:23:57 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Vance / Mysterious Galaxy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 21 May 99, at 10:32, Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: > Your "trip" wouldn't have something to do with the World > Cup Cricket would it? My husband hates travelling but, > *purely by coincidence*, he just happened to have important > business near Lords on the 14th, in Canterbury > on the 19th, near the Oval tomorrow and at Trent Bridge on > the 25th. If England get into the Super Six, I won't see > hide nor hair of him in June. I respectfully decline to answer that question on the grounds I might incriminate myself . I won't be able to see any more matches after this weekend because I'll be in the US from Monday until at least 15th June because our US business is booming. The US economy worries me, I don't see that it can go on overheating like this - still the longer it goes on the more books I'll be able to afford. At the rate I'm getting recommendations, I'm going to need the money. By-the-bye, I can *thoroughly* recommend Maryelizabeth Hart's Mysterious Galaxy website (http://www.mystgalaxy.com). In addition to sf/f, this well-structured site also contains lots of info on thrillers, mysteries etc. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk)