Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9905E" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 07:28:17 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "All show and no substance" was what I thought of this film when I saw it on Tuesday. I enjoyed the special effects which were magnificent but after the first 30 minutes, I'd discounted them and concentrated on the story (adequate), the plot development (good), the characterisation (OK but vaguely disappointing), the dialogue ("Did somebody get *paid* for writing this?"), the acting (variable but largely wooden), and the settings (sumptuous but claustrophobic after a while). After all the hype and George Lucas' demented marketing I expected much more. Frankly I'd have been better off staying in the office and completing network installation; it would have been a lot cheaper and more fun. Still the late supper was excellent. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 07:30:28 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Recent reading - May Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Once again my latest reading although this month I haven't really had much time to read. You should note that, like Arthur C Clarke, I believe that the prime purpose of fiction is to entertain so my ratings refer only to how much I *enjoyed* the book(s); to avoid problems, I've excluded the two "books with a message" I read during the month. I've also tried to indicate which books *I thought* are "stand alone" by using "SA" for "stand alone", "NSA" for "not stand alone" and "?SA" for when it was difficult to decide because although there were loose ends the book was reasonably complete; I *personally* tend NOT to buy or read books marked "NSA" unless I can get the entire series; I *usually* give a "NSA" book a lower rating. Other people may differ. Elliott, Kate: King's Dragon [Crown of Stars Series , Vol 1] (****- ?SA), _An Earthly Crown_ (*---- SA) Gentle, Mary: _Hawk in Silver_ (**--- ?SA), _Golden witchbreed (**--- ?SA) Hambly, Barbara : _The Time of the Dark (****- SA), _The Walls of Air_ (****- ?SA), _The Armies of Daylight_ (****- NSA), _Mother of Winter_ (**--- ?SA), _Icefalcon's Quest_ (**--- NSA), _Dragonsbane_ (****- SA), _Dragonshadow_ (**--- NSA) Hobb, Robin: _Mad ship_[Live ship Traders Bk 2] (***-- NSA) Roberson, Jennifer : Sword-Dancer_ (***-- NSA), _Sword-maker_ (**--- NSA) Lisle, Holly: _Diplomacy of Wolves [Secret Texts Bk 1] (****- SA) Marston, Ann : Kingmaker's Sword [Blade Trilogy Bk 1] (*** NSA) I've now acquired an almost complete collection of MZB books and 13 Jack Vance books (which I hope to augment this weekend); God knows when I'm going to get time to read them. I can also recommend Peter Bernstein's _Against the Gods : the remarkable story of risk_ for anyone interested in the absorbing subject. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 05:13:13 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 29 May 99, at 7:28, Mike Stanton wrote: >I enjoyed the special effects which were magnificent but after the first 30 >minutes, I'd > discounted them The Phantom Menace hasn't been released here but I think we're all getting blase about special effects. Early this week I saw The Matrix which is almost all special effects and nothing else. After the first 30 minutes I got bored. All I could think about was how derivative it was ... an uneasy blend of Viruosity, Brazil, Conspiracy Theory, Hackers and the Lawnmower Man. I think sooner or later scriptwriters are going to have to try (this is a very novel concept) to make films interesting by including interesting characters and unhackneyed plots. Rosetta, which I saw last week must have cost one thousandth of The Matrix was far better in every way (except special effects). >the dialogue ("Did somebody get *paid* for writing this?") Obviously another film buff but I think you got the quote wrong {(;-)} >Frankly I'd have been better off staying in the office and >completing network installation; it would have been a lot >cheaper and more fun. Still the late supper was excellent. I thought you just sat back and cracked the whip at the slaves. Don't tell me you had to actually work with your own lily-white hands? Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 05:14:27 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Recent reading - May Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 29 May 99, at 7:30, Mike Stanton wrote: >Hambly, Barbara : _The Time of the Dark (****- SA), _The Walls of Air_ >(****- ?SA), _The Armies of Daylight_ (****- NSA), _Mother of Winter_ >(**--- ?SA), _Icefalcon's Quest_ (**--- NSA), _Dragonsbane_ (****- SA), >_Dragonshadow_ (**--- NSA) Before I forget, Barbara Hambly's also written a mystery about ancient Rome (The Quirinal Hill Affair), similar but not as good as those books by Lindsay Davis that I recommended 2 weeks ago. Have you tried Laura Resnick's In Legend Born? The comments you made on J V Jones reminded me of Resnick's book which, in some ways, appears to resemble Jones' Cavern of Black Ice. Unfortunately it's also the start of a series but it's pretty much stand alone. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 05:15:37 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: SF mysteries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; I'm fond of sf/f mysteries and I've found a few over the last few months that many of you may not have seen. The first two are edited by Mike Resnick ("Whatdunits" and "More Whatdunits"). They may not seen like feminist sf but they're actually anthologies with stories by well known feminist writers (among others) like Pat Cadogan, Esther Friesner, and Judith Tarr. Tanya Huff has written at least 3 books about an investigator, Victoria "Otherworldly Crimes A Speciality" Nelson. I've read the first three, "Blood Price", "Blood Trails" and Blood Lines". They're all pretty good. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 12:48:37 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: The Matrix In-Reply-To: <19990529121314.22993.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:13 AM 5/29/99 PDT, Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: >Early this week I saw The Matrix which is almost all special effects >and nothing else. After the first 30 minutes I got bored. All I could >think about was how derivative it was ... an uneasy blend of >Viruosity, Brazil, Conspiracy Theory, Hackers and the Lawnmower >Man. I had a very different reaction to the Matrix -- it's one of my favorite movies in quite a while. It's true that it hearkens back to other movies, but I think it ends up being better than most of the movies it references (for instance, in your above list, *Brazil* is the only movie I would say is better than Matrix, and in a completely different way). You aren't the first to say that it is only about special effects, but I am still baffled to hear it -- I thought this movie had, for a science fiction film, a very well realized, interesting plot, almost Philip K. Dick-ian in its questioning of perceived reality. And it's one of the better treatments of Buddhist enlightenment that I have seen on screen. It had its silly ideas (humans-as-batteries is right up there) but overall I was very impressed. And ObFemSF: Trinity kicked ass! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: XTC -- Apple Venus Volume 1 "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 18:13:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Jaran, Star Wars, and ethnic stereotypes In-Reply-To: <199904221150.NAA14011@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:49 PM 04/22/99 +0000, Petra wrote, about Jaran: >The Chappali. Their description reminded me of how Europeans and >North Americans perceive Asians, especially Japanese and Chinese. The >different set of values and rules, difficult to comprehend and to >make out, the different ways to loose face, etc. I am bothered - I >wear my policital correctness hat again - that they are presented in >such an unsympathetic, despising way, so very much from the outside. I am usually on the lookout for what ethnic group might serve, positively or negatively, as a basis for an SF alien species. Sort of a "spot the species" game. I didn't catch the "inscrutable asian" stereotype but you're right in that it might apply. In this case I think it's a stretch, though. I read in some newspaper lately about such accusations leveled against the new star wars film, which I have not seen. Evidently the actor playing the jar-jar character used a vaguely caribbean accent for the voice, and someone suggested the ears look like dreadlocks. Anyone have any comment about this, having seen it, and not being filtered through a US news media which I do not trust at all? Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 01:22:05 CDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Barbara Benesch-Granberg Subject: Re: Star Wars, and ethnic stereotypes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Jennifer Krauel wrote: >I read in some newspaper lately about such accusations leveled >against the >new star wars film, which I have not seen. Evidently >the actor playing >the jar-jar character used a vaguely caribbean >accent for the voice, and >someone suggested the ears look like >dreadlocks. Anyone have any comment >about this, having seen it, and >not being filtered through a US news media >which I do not trust at >all? I haven't seen anything in the media about racial stereotyping accusations leveled at The Phantom Menace, so I admit to speaking before I have all the facts (not that I really rely on the media to supply them, but....). However, in jeopardy of revealing myself naive, I have to point out that the fellow who was the 'stand-in' for all of the scenes Jar Jar is in, the same fellow who did Jar Jar's voice, is a dread-locked young black man named Ahmed Best. His resume includes being a member of the percussion group Stomp (he may still be a member, I haven't heard one way or another), and I do know that at least one member of Stomp (when I saw them on some talk show - possibly Rosie O'Donnell) has a Carribean sort of accent. Is it too far-fetched to assume the appearance of Jar Jar is something along the lines of The Incredible Mr. Limpet's resemblance to Don Knotts? I mean, if the ears on the Gungan's *are* in fact supposed to resemble dread-locks (I hadn't really thought of it when I saw it, but looking back I can kind of see how a person might think so), couldn't it be in recognition of the guy who played the lead Gungan? Okay, please don't flame me into oblivion telling me I'm dangerously naive - I'm really *not* a danger to myself or others (grin!). The other thing I'd like to point out, without spoiling the movie for others, is - aren't the Gungans good guys? I don't remember seeing them portrayed in a negative light, really. Some of them weren't too quick, and yes, they all do talk funny, but so does Jabba the Hutt. From what I could see, Jar Jar the goofy was kind of singular for his race. Most of them seemed pretty serious and capable. Okay, okay, I probably am going to get roasted over the coals for not seeing the diabolical schemes and terribleness of the white Baby Boomer rich-guy George Lucas. I'm going to shut my mouth soon before I get into much more trouble, but on the subject of the bad reviews of The Phantom Menace, my personal theory on the bad reviews is that the reviewers went in forgetting that the movie wasn't made for them - it was made for grade-school kids. It's a fun movie, but it's not supposed to really be much more than that - just some fun. And I think the reviewers went in there expecting something much more grown up. Having gotten myself into enough trouble for now, Signing off, Barbara Benesch-Granberg _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 08:10:05 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 29 May 99, at 5:13, Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: > Early this week I saw The Matrix which is > almost all special effects and nothing else. > After the first 30 minutes I got bored. All I > could think about was how derivative it was > ... an uneasy blend of Viruosity, Brazil, Conspiracy > Theory, Hackers and the Lawnmower Man. When I read your comments, I was immediately reminded of some remarks I made on _The Sparrow_ and _Children of God_. Like those two stories, _The Matrix_ appears to ponder a profound question about our lives and times. But when one strips the verbiage and special effects, one realises how poverty-stricken the scriptwriters' concept was. You might also have included _The Fifth Element_, another silly pretentious film, in your list because I felt there were strong resemblances between the "Messiah" theme in both films. > I think sooner or later scriptwriters are going > to have to try (this is a very novel concept) > to make films interesting by including interesting > characters and unhackneyed plots. Rosetta, > which I saw last week must have cost one thousandth > of The Matrix was far better in every > way (except special effects). I also think that _L'Humanite_ contained much greater depth of feeling and originality. The cloying, twisted sense of evil pervading the film was produced by artistry rather than resorting to risible, bug-eyed laser-carrying monsters. Couldn't help laughing when I saw the electronic squids swing into action - reminiscent of the leucocytes in _The fantastic voyage_! Did you see _The emperor and the assassin_? Bloke in the seat next to me on Monday thought that Chen Kaige's film was a "work of genius". I'd like to have gone to the Festival this year (I've been unsuccessfully trying to make time for 6 years); it must have been pleasant without the usual big studio hype. > Obviously another film buff but I think you got the quote wrong {(;-)} I can never remember the quotes from films. My film favourite quote is the "tarantula" from the same film, but I can never recall the exact words. > I thought you just sat back and cracked the > whip at the slaves. Don't tell me you had to > actually work with your own lily-white hands? An unfortunate disadvantage of the "all-professional", "employee-less" or "out-sourced" office is that, once in a while, the professional has to get down to a bit of manual labour. Still at least one knows the job has been done properly. But you're partly right about the whip cracking; as usual, I hired some grad students who did, also as usual, a first-rate job so all I really had to do was the final setup. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 01:02:18 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Star Wars and The Matrix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 30 May 99, at 1:22, Barbara Benesch-Granberg wrote: >... my personal theory on the bad reviews is that >the reviewers went in forgetting that the movie wasn't made for them - it >was made for grade-school kids. It's a fun movie, but it's not supposed >to really be much more than that - just some fun. That's exactly it and I fell into the same trap myself in saying what I did about The Matrix. The Matrix was made to make money so the makers had to put in a little bit of everything to attract the widest possible audience AND still make it fun to watch. I think they succeeded. There was plenty of action for the martial arts and wrestling lovers, a hint of philosophy for the pseudo-intellectuals, good looking stars for the teenagers, fantastic special effects for the technojunkies and a healthy dose of technophobia for the rest of us. Anything to get people talking about the film and then going to see it again and again and again ... as happened in the teenage girl audience which boosted the ratings of Titanic. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 03:33:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: The Matrix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:48 PM 29/05/99 -0400, you wrote: >And ObFemSF: Trinity kicked ass! Yeah - for about fifteen minutes in the beginning, before being relegated for the rest of the movie to the role of Faithful Sidekick. Sigh... Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 03:40:50 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 30 May 99, at 8:10, Mike Stanton wrote: >You might also have included _The Fifth Element_, another silly >pretentious film, in your list because I felt there were strong >resemblances between the "Messiah" theme in both films. Youre right there. The "Messiah" theme, though, is so common as to be the lazy scriptwriter's answer to thought. Off hand, I can think of a dozen s/f films (including the original Star Wars trilogy) with the same motif. The proportion of sf books, especially in feminist fantasy, must be even greater. I also left Dark City off my list which was a mistake because it combined the "Messiah" and the "secret conspiracy" themes in exactly the same way as The Matrix. >I also think that _L'Humanite_ contained much greater depth of feeling and >originality. The cloying, twisted sense of evil pervading the film was >produced by artistry rather than resorting to risible, bug-eyed >laser-carrying monsters. Couldn't help laughing when I saw the electronic >squids swing into action - reminiscent of the leucocytes in _The fantastic >voyage_! Sort of like the US Cavalry gone bad. I thought the same and it spoilt that part of the film for me ... like seeing Koko the clown pop up in the middle of Germinal and do a quick two-step on the coal trucks. >Did you see _The emperor and the assassin_? Bloke in the seat next to me >on Monday thought that Chen Kaige's film was a "work of genius". I'd like >to have gone to the Festival this year (I've been unsuccessfully trying to >make time for 6 years); it must have been pleasant without the usual big >studio hype. I was lucky enough to see all the prize winners although I only saw The Letter after its win was announced. I was not impressed with Almodovar's stuff though ... too much like some of his earlier films. I didn't think that Chen Kaige's work was "genius" either although it was good. This year I didn't think there were any really outstanding films, perhaps next year will be better. My brother-in-law lives in Nice so I've been able to visit the Festival 8 times in the last 10 years. This year it was very subdued and I thought the absence of the big studios left it much poorer. >An unfortunate disadvantage of the "all-professional", "employee-less" or >"out-sourced" office is that, once in a while, the professional has to get >down to a bit of manual labour. Still at least one knows the job has been >done properly. I wish we could go the same way but there're no suitable out-sources here. Surely though since your HQ is in Europe and you have people commuting back and forth across the Atlantic, youre going to need at least some local employees for continuity? It must be impossible to be completely "employee-less". Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 11:39:57 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Star Wars and The Matrix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Claudia wrote: > There was plenty of action for the martial arts and > wrestling lovers, a hint of philosophy for the > pseudo-intellectuals, good looking stars for the > teenagers, fantastic special effects for the > technojunkies and a healthy dose of technophobia for > the rest of us. Funny you should couple martial arts and wrestling because I've always felt that rabid wrestling fans and fanatic martial arts enthusiasts are really just the extremes of the same continuum with Karate as the "religious", "intellectual" equivalent of the grunt-and-groan brigade. Perhaps Bruce Lee was the Tertullian or Kierkegaard of Kung Fu! In some ways "martial arts" are even more dishonest than WWF wrestling, because at least wrestling makes no pretence that there are secret philosophical arts which allow a 5' 2", 90lb, out-of-shape elderly woman to beat up a 6' 4", 200lb, fit youngish man. Have you noticed how many "martial arts" gurus are coming out of the east these days? I'm sure that somewhere in the depths of China (perhaps at Lop Nor) there's a "The East Is Red Ever Victorious Institute For The Invention Of Martial Arts To Fool Gullible Westerners". Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.cp.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 14:25:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: Star Wars and The Matrix In-Reply-To: <80256781.003C2B2D.00@nun.postmaster.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:39 AM 5/30/99 +0100, Mike Stanton wrote: >In some ways "martial arts" >are even more dishonest than WWF wrestling, because at least wrestling >makes no pretence that there are secret philosophical arts which allow a 5' >2", 90lb, out-of-shape elderly woman to beat up a 6' 4", 200lb, fit >youngish man. So are you saying that this is impossible? As far as hand-to-hand fighting goes, technique can certainly overcome brawn, though your example seems designed to make us scoff at the possibility. I can't imagine that there are many 5'2" elderly ladies enrolled in karate classes, and what number there are probably are not out-of-shape. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: XTC -- Apple Venus Volume 1 "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 14:37:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: The Matrix In-Reply-To: <199905300833.DAA75494@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:48 PM 29/05/99 -0400, I wrote: >And ObFemSF: Trinity kicked ass! At 03:33 AM 5/30/99 -0500, Santanico wrote: >Yeah - for about fifteen minutes in the beginning, before being relegated >for the rest of the movie to the role of Faithful Sidekick. Sigh... I sure would have liked to see more of her, but I don't think she can really be called a "sidekick". Neo never controls her. When he tries near the end to prevent her from entering the matrix with him she chews him out for telling her what to do! Of course, the "loving female" theme at the end is tiresomely familiar, but it may be partially redeemed by the fact that if she had not fallen in love with Neo he certainly would have died and it all would have been for nothing. Some hardcore fans of the film in rec.arts.movies have even claimed that "The One" is not Neo himself, but the trio of Morpheus, Neo and Trinity, a la Babylon 5's "One" consisting of Sheriden, Sinclair and Delenn. I wouldn't go that far, but it's an interesting idea. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: XTC -- Apple Venus Volume 1 "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 20:08:37 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 30 May 99, at 3:40, Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: > Youre right there. The "Messiah" theme, though, is > so common as to be the lazy scriptwriter's answer > to thought. Perhaps the advantage to the scriptwriter that since Western civilisation is based on "Christian" values - even in these godless days - people are "conditioned" enough to accept the plausibility of a "Messiah" even in the implausible setting of a sf film. > I also left Dark City off my list which was a mistake > because it combined the "Messiah" and the "secret > conspiracy" themes in exactly the same way as The > Matrix. _Dark City_ is of course a very close analogy to _The Matrix_. Do you know if there was any overlap in production / scriptwriting etc? > Surely though since you have people commuting > back and forth across the Atlantic, youre going to > need at least some local employees for continuity? > It must be impossible to be completely > "employee-less". We use a serviced suite and temps from a good agency; planning and innovation takes care of the rest. It's just not worth hiring people who don't contribute directly to the bottom line. Our business - like that of all others - is making profits not providing employment. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 10:32:19 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Matrix MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I really enjoyed as was very frustrated by the Matrix at the same time. The mystifying lectures by Morpheus in the whiteout place just left me cold. Wrapping up a simple sentence like "Your reality up to now has been created by machines while your body lies in a pod" into pseud-philosophical gobbledegook for the masses - yuk. Trinity having to kiss Neo alive at the end was soooo cliched. Why couldn't _she_ be "the one". (I love the christmas card which reads "The birth of a man who thinks he's god is an everyday event".) It feels to me that the male-as-norm theme has got stronger and stronger in popular culture over the last decade, and I am developing an allergic reaction to it. What I _did_ enjoy was the chase scenes, both Trinity's and Neo's near the end, the takeoff on the CIA agents as terminal-violent-nerds, and the theme that our reality is created by machines to keep us happy while they feed off us. Now I see that as a lift from Marx, as much as the X-files. Okay, humans as food does not compute. But our reality being created by others to control us - that I like. Jenny Rankine ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 19:17:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: Star Wars, and ethnic stereotypes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The first time I heard that there were "racial stereotype" accusations being levelled at SWE1:TPM, that's all I heard; the news snippet didn't go any farther to mention WHICH character was supposedly a racial sterotype. As I was watching it a few days after that, the only character that jumped out at me as a possibility was the Trade Federation's Viceroy. He's portrayed very negatively (one of the first lines of the movie talks about what cowards the trade federation's leaders are), and his accent about half the time is very definitely oriental (if that's the correct label to use - would "asian" be better/more accurate?) - when he goes into his "smooth-talking" routine, trying to convince the queen and then the white-bearded guy to go along with his plan. Did anybody else get that? I never saw Jar-Jar as anything more than a really annoying character with particularly unconvincing walking movements. Thinking back on it, it occurs to me now that I think they really REALLY should have used Hensen Studios' expertise and not done him completely CG; at least with the ewoks and yoda, I was convinced they could be real creatures. The Gungans never struck me as anything but unconvincing CG creations. Of course, Jim Hensen and Frank Oz and Kevin Clash are so close to god-hood in my mind that they may as well be. I grew up watching Sesame Street and the Muppet show, and Elmo and the Baby (in "Dinosaurs", the tv show) are two of my favorite "kid" characters. So I might be biased in thinking they could have done a better job than the computer guys did. :) -Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 23:20:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: The Matrix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:37 PM 30/05/99 -0400, you wrote: >I sure would have liked to see more of her, but I don't think she can >really be called a "sidekick". Neo never controls her. When he tries near >the end to prevent her from entering the matrix with him she chews him out >for telling her what to do! Of course, the "loving female" theme at the end >is tiresomely familiar, but it may be partially redeemed by the fact that >if she had not fallen in love with Neo he certainly would have died and it >all would have been for nothing. Some hardcore fans of the film in >rec.arts.movies have even claimed that "The One" is not Neo himself, but >the trio of Morpheus, Neo and Trinity, a la Babylon 5's "One" consisting of >Sheriden, Sinclair and Delenn. I wouldn't go that far, but it's an >interesting idea. It's possible, especially considering that the Wachowski brothers recently revealed that "The Matrix" was intended as part one of a trilogy (hmmmm...Wonder if they'd have chosen to reveal this had the movie been a flop? Ah, well, never mind). However, from the looks of things, it seems Neo's going to be the One and only, a la Luke Skywalker (yeah, he had Leia and Han, but he was still the Big Kahuna of the universe, right?). I dunno...Myself, I'd probably have led the audience to believe that it was going to be Neo - since that's what we were all thinking right from the first five minutes anyway - then have it revealed to be Trinity. Speaking of whom, I'm afraid I have to disagree; the "love theme" at the end didn't seem at all necessary. In fact, it seemed positively bizarre, especially considering that both Trinity and Neo haven't displayed a whole lot of emotion towards each other beforehand, and that this kind of movie genuinely does not need a Romantic Subplot (TM) to support itself - it was cruising along just fine on its own energy prior to this odd "Suddenly, Neo, I Realise I Love You For No Apparent Reason! Callooh, Callay!" development. Not to mention that it kind of casts Trinity in a rather shallow light - she only fell for Neo because, it seemed, that she'd told herself ages ago that she would fall in love with the One, whoever he might be. Neo himself not turning out to have much in the way of personal charisma (he's played by Keanu Reeves, after all), you really have to wonder whether she 'loves' him because he's such a wonderful guy and all, or because he's the One and it's expected of her. Of course, I could be just misinterpreting the whole thing; I only saw the movie once, so I'm probably neglecting a whole lot of details and such... Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 22:02:22 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 30 May 99, at 20:08, Mike Stanton wrote: >Perhaps the advantage to the scriptwriter that since Western civilisation >is based on "Christian" values - even in these godless days - people are >"conditioned" enough to accept the plausibility of a "Messiah" even in the >implausible setting of a sf film. It also, I think, makes it easier for people to understand something if that something is given in a metaphor that they are familiar with from childhood. On those lines didn't Tolstoy believe that all true art had to be available to **everyone**, especially the "peasant", not just to an elitist minority? If I remember correctly, on these grounds he condemned not only all his own work but music like Beethoven's 9th saying something like "I can't imagine normal people being able to understand more than a few snatches of this incomprehensible work". I've never been able to work out whether he was being honest or just boasting about his own intellect in comparison to that of a "normal person". So far from being childish, films aimed at the lowest common denominator like the Phantom Menace or The Matrix are really a much higher form of art than Rosetta or L'Humanite which might well leave the "peasant" flabbergasted! Your comments on the triteness of the themes in The Sparrow and Children of God, far from being harsh criticisms, were really the highest form of compliment {;-)} Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 00:16:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:08 PM 30/05/99 +0100, you wrote: >Perhaps the advantage to the scriptwriter that since Western civilisation >is based on "Christian" values - even in these godless days - people are >"conditioned" enough to accept the plausibility of a "Messiah" even in the >implausible setting of a sf film. Actually, the "Messiah" theme isn't exclusively a Christian concept. Norse mythology had Baldur, a paragon of perfection in pretty much every respect, jealously murdered by Loki (who should've taken comfort in the fact that he was more interesting anyway). Greek mythology had Hercules, the literal 'son of (a) God' who had to endure all sorts of nasty stuff before finally getting to Mount Olympus. The general theory, I think, is that the Messiah theme was in fact adopted by the Christians during the early days of converting pagans to Christianity - they stole a lot of the more powerful themes in order to make the conversion easier. >_Dark City_ is of course a very close analogy to _The Matrix_. Do you know >if there was any overlap in production / scriptwriting etc? No, I don't think so. "Dark City" was made about a year or two before "The Matrix". Though the fact that both productions were mainly based here in Sydney is food for thought. Maybe this place just induces paranoid techno-fantasies in visiting American film-makers? Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:26:54 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 31 May 99, at 0:16, Santanico wrote: > The general theory, I think, is that the Messiah > theme was in fact adopted by the Christians > during the early days of converting pagans to > Christianity - they stole a lot of the more > powerful themes in order to make the conversion > easier. Clearly I badly overestimated Western society's knowledge of its Christian roots! The "Messiah theme" in Christianity (a "descendent" of Judaism) was supposedly the fulfillment of the prophecies (in Isaiah 9:6-7 for example) about the coming of a saviour or "Messiah" who would lead the Jewish people out of foreign domination back to Palestine where an ideal kingdom, with Jerusalem as its capital, would be founded. Early Christians didn't "steal" these ideas; they didn't have to because the early Christians (Jesus himself and the disciples) *were* Jews. Indeed at first Christianity seemed nothing more than another messianic Jewish sect like those that had arisen in the past (and were to arise in the future). Baldur wasn't a saviour in any form - personal or otherwise. Hercules (son of Zeus and Alcmene) was one of many children of the (Greek) Gods and in no way represented a "Messiah". You're probably thinking of Mithras! Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 04:29:22 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 31 May 99, at 0:16, Santanico wrote: >Greek mythology had Hercules, the literal 'son of (a) God' who >had to endure all sorts of nasty stuff before finally >getting to Mount Olympus. Hercules didn't resemble Christ or any other messiah for that matter. For one thing, in a fit of madness brought on by Hera, he murdered Megara, the first of his three wives, and their children ... his famous 12 tasks were undertaken as penance for these crimes. He committed suicide on a funeral pyre because of the pain caused by a poisoned tunic sent to him by his jealous, second wife, Deianira (who, incidently, Hercules won from Antaeus, the son of another god Poseidon). You shouldn't believe everything you see in Disney cartoons! >The general theory, I think, is that the Messiah theme was > in fact adopted by the Christians during the early days of converting >pagans to Christianity - they stole a lot of the more powerful themes in >order to make the conversion easier. Oh no it isn't. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 07:27:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:26 AM 31/05/99 +0100, you wrote: >Clearly I badly overestimated Western society's knowledge of its Christian >roots! Well, you know, I never did claim to represent the entirety of Western society...But if anyone wants to elect me as official representative, who am I to argue? The "Messiah theme" in Christianity (a "descendent" of Judaism) was >supposedly the fulfillment of the prophecies (in Isaiah 9:6-7 for example) >about the coming of a saviour or "Messiah" who would lead the Jewish people >out of foreign domination back to Palestine where an ideal kingdom, with >Jerusalem as its capital, would be founded. Early Christians didn't "steal" >these ideas; they didn't have to because the early Christians (Jesus >himself and the disciples) *were* Jews. Indeed at first Christianity seemed >nothing more than another messianic Jewish sect like those that had arisen >in the past (and were to arise in the future). But even this proves that the Messianic theme isn't exclusive to Christianity - it couldn't be, if it originated with Judaism. Whereas your earlier statement seemed to be that Messiah themes _originated_ with Christians, period. >Baldur wasn't a saviour in any form - personal or otherwise. Well, actually, in the Ragnarok mythology (I could be wrong here, though, since my recollections of Norse mythology ain't what it used to be), isn't he supposed to make some kind of triumphant comeback, to lead the Aesir against Loki's hordes? Of course, since everything gets destroyed in the end no matter what (cheerful people, those ancient Norse), it's a little redundant, but still... Hercules (son >of Zeus and Alcmene) was one of many children of the (Greek) Gods and in no >way represented a "Messiah". You're probably thinking of Mithras! Nor are my Greek mythology recollections what they used to be. But then again, you try pulling an ancient Greek savior out of your hat when you're flu-addled... Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 07:39:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Criminy, who'd have thought this would spark such a heated debate? At 04:29 AM 31/05/99 PDT, you wrote: >Hercules didn't resemble Christ or any other messiah for that matter. For >one thing, in a fit of madness brought on by Hera, he murdered Megara, the >first of his three wives, and their children ... his famous 12 tasks were >undertaken as penance for these crimes. He committed suicide on a funeral >pyre because of the pain caused by a poisoned tunic sent to him by his >jealous, second wife, Deianira (who, incidently, Hercules won from Antaeus, >the son of another god Poseidon). Yes, yes, I knew all that, okay? I was just trying to think of a Greek parallel. You try it when you've got the flu. >You shouldn't believe everything you see in Disney cartoons! I never saw that cartoon. I can't stand Disney. Gives me cavities. >Oh no it isn't. Depends who you ask, doesn't it? Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 06:29:34 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 31 May 99, at 7:27, Santanico wrote: >But even this proves that the Messianic theme isn't exclusive to >Christianity - it couldn't be, if it originated with Judaism. Whereas your >earlier statement seemed to be that Messiah themes _originated_ with >Christians, period. What he said was "Western civilisation is based on 'Christian' values"; he said nothing about the *origin* of the "Messiah" theme The comments you quote from his second note make it clear that he wasn't suggesting that the "Messiah" theme was exclusive to Christianity. >Well, actually, in the Ragnarok mythology (I could be wrong here, though, >since my recollections of Norse mythology ain't what it used to be), isn't >he supposed to make some kind of triumphant comeback, to lead the Aesir >against Loki's hordes? Of course, since everything gets destroyed in the >end no matter what (cheerful people, those ancient Norse), it's a little >redundant, but still... In fact, in the myth, Lif and Lifthrasir sleep through Ragnarok, awakening after to found a new race of men. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 08:49:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:29 AM 31/05/99 PDT, you wrote: >What he said was "Western civilisation is based on 'Christian' values"; he >said nothing about the *origin* of the "Messiah" theme The comments you >quote from his second note make it clear that he wasn't suggesting that the >"Messiah" theme was exclusive to Christianity. Ah. Then I misinterpreted; _I_ thought he was claiming that Christians alone concieved of the Messiah Theme. My mistake. >In fact, in the myth, Lif and Lifthrasir sleep through Ragnarok, awakening >after to found a new race of men. Yes - but this only occurs after everything's destroyed, as I said. Sant.