Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG9906A" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 07:47:36 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: average US incomes: corrected summary Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On the 20th May, I made a summary of the family incomes of US list members reported to me in public or private mail. Since then I have received a fair number of updates so here are the final figures: The mean for the 23 reports is US$38277/year and the median is US$35934/year. Based on the same sort of reasoning I gave last time, I'd *suggest* that the true list mean is probably about US$35000/year and the median about US$31000/year. The estimated median amount spent on buying *books* is US$430/year (about 1% of median income). The 7 quantitative reports all come from people in the higher incomes group so I'd *suggest* that the true median is MUCH lower than this (probably of the order of US$250/year assuming similar proportions). The total amount spent on reading material (reported by only 2 people) is almost double this at US$805/year; this is certainly a GROSS overestimate of the true median. At a guess, I'd say that the average person on this list buys 1-2 new books and/or 3-4 used books per month although it's highly unlikely that purchases are spread evenly thoughout the year. A factor common to all spending reports - including those where cash amounts were not given - is the complaint that respondents tend to spend more than they can afford on reading matter. Most people, however, said explicitly or implicitly that they'd rather starve than stop reading. I was *very* badly wrong with my initial guess and I apologise yet again for this. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 08:37:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Star Wars, and ethnic stereotypes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Barbara, I must disagree. I saw TPM last Wednesday, and I was almost concerned enough about Jar-Jar to write a letter to Lucas--the character seemed to me to incorporate the worst characteristics of all the roles Stepin Fetchit ever played. The only character that seemed to have any hint of character development was the young queen, and the actress portraying her did an excellent job. The scene where she came running thru the palace with a pistol, however, seemed blatantly to prefigure Leia running thru the Death Star, just as that totally unbelievable scene where 10-year-old Anakin blows up the battle cruiser prefigured his son Luke at the Death Star. Samuel Jackson and the other actors in bit parts were totally wasted--even Liam Neeson walked thru his part, as nothing was given him with which to develop the character. I'm sorry, but for me this was the weakest of the 4--the only redeeming portion being the young queen and the actress portraying her. Marsha Valance Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells Street Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436 >>> Barbara Benesch-Granberg 05/30 1:22 AM >>> Jennifer Krauel wrote: >I read in some newspaper lately about such accusations leveled >against the >new star wars film, which I have not seen. Evidently >the actor playing >the jar-jar character used a vaguely Caribbean >accent for the voice, and >someone suggested the ears look like >dreadlocks. Anyone have any comment >about this, having seen it, and >not being filtered through a US news media >which I do not trust at >all? I haven't seen anything in the media about racial stereotyping accusations leveled at The Phantom Menace, so I admit to speaking before I have all the facts (not that I really rely on the media to supply them, but....). However, in jeopardy of revealing myself naive, I have to point out that the fellow who was the 'stand-in' for all of the scenes Jar Jar is in, the same fellow who did Jar Jar's voice, is a dread-locked young black man named Ahmed Best. His resume includes being a member of the percussion group Stomp (he may still be a member, I haven't heard one way or another), and I do know that at least one member of Stomp (when I saw them on some talk show - possibly Rosie O'Donnell) has a Carribean sort of accent. Is it too far-fetched to assume the appearance of Jar Jar is something along the lines of The Incredible Mr. Limpet's resemblance to Don Knotts? I mean, if the ears on the Gungan's *are* in fact supposed to resemble dread-locks (I hadn't really thought of it when I saw it, but looking back I can kind of see how a person might think so), couldn't it be in recognition of the guy who played the lead Gungan? Okay, please don't flame me into oblivion telling me I'm dangerously naive - I'm really *not* a danger to myself or others (grin!). The other thing I'd like to point out, without spoiling the movie for others, is - aren't the Gungans good guys? I don't remember seeing them portrayed in a negative light, really. Some of them weren't too quick, and yes, they all do talk funny, but so does Jabba the Hutt. From what I could see, Jar Jar the goofy was kind of singular for his race. Most of them seemed pretty serious and capable. Okay, okay, I probably am going to get roasted over the coals for not seeing the diabolical schemes and terribleness of the white Baby Boomer rich-guy George Lucas. I'm going to shut my mouth soon before I get into much more trouble, but on the subject of the bad reviews of The Phantom Menace, my personal theory on the bad reviews is that the reviewers went in forgetting that the movie wasn't made for them - it was made for grade-school kids. It's a fun movie, but it's not supposed to really be much more than that - just some fun. And I think the reviewers went in there expecting something much more grown up. Having gotten myself into enough trouble for now, Signing off, Barbara Benesch-Granberg _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:10:48 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marianne Reddin Aldrich Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Mike Stanton wrote: >Baldur wasn't a saviour in any form - personal or otherwise. Okay, I will grant that my knowledge of Norse mythology is almost completely confined to Roger Lancelyn Green, which oughta disqualify me, but I asked my 'Master of Arts in History', mythology-teaching mother-in-law, and she remembers the same version: There is a saga in which Odin has a vision of Ragnarok. At the end of the vision, after everything has been destroyed (and for what it's worth, there are plenty of Christians, supported by the Book of Revelation, that also believe in an apocalyptic, destructive endtime), the Odin-viewing (as opposed to Odin-view, who died horribly during the battle) is standing in the middle of the devastated battlefield. The earth opens, and Baldur (along with a cohort of assorted Valhallian heroes and some of the youngest gods/goddesses) climbs out and walks over to Odin. Simultaneously, the earth starts to recover, so that by the time Baldur reaches Odin, they are standing in the middle of a grassy, treed meadow. Baldur leans over and whispers a word in Odin's ear. The word? "Rebirth." Now, that seems pretty darn messianic to me. But, maybe we are using different definitions. As an aside, I think that the vehement putting-down of other people's theories on this is somewhat obnoxious. I mean, we are dealing with mythologies here. Even at their original time of use, they weren't fixed, concrete, and 'factual' - ie all believers in Greek mythology believed that 'Hercules' stood for 'this person of this origin who did exactly these things and no others'. Different groups used different gods/heroes in different ways, no? A little forbearance, please. Marianne _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:43:45 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Star Wars vs. Wagner's Ring Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here in San Francisco, this summer we're blessed with Wagner's "Ring" cycle of operas. Promoted with all the hype you might expect, just an action figure short of Star Wars. In the Sunday paper the music critic wrote a piece comparing the Ring to Star Wars. I thought list members might be amused at this intersection of popular SF and classical arts. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:30:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: The Matrix In-Reply-To: <199905310420.XAA62174@piglet.cc.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:20 PM 5/30/99 -0500, Santanico wrote: >I'm afraid I have to disagree; the "love theme" at the end didn't seem >at all necessary. In fact, it seemed positively bizarre, especially >considering that both Trinity and Neo haven't displayed a whole lot of >emotion towards each other beforehand, and that this kind of movie genuinely >does not need a Romantic Subplot (TM) to support itself - it was cruising >along just fine on its own energy prior to this odd "Suddenly, Neo, I >Realise I Love You For No Apparent Reason! Callooh, Callay!" development. I agree that in terms of character development it comes out of nowhere. There is very little buildup of anything in a psychological sense. What I meant was that according to the plot Neo would have died during the final confrontation with Agent Smith if Trinity had not felt for him as she did and given him the ol' kiss of life (TM). Somewhat of a reversal of the Sleeping Beauty tale, come to think of it. Though I seriously doubt the Washowski brothers were consciously doing that. >Not to mention that it kind of casts Trinity in a rather shallow light - she >only fell for Neo because, it seemed, that she'd told herself ages ago that >she would fall in love with the One, whoever he might be. Neo himself not >turning out to have much in the way of personal charisma (he's played by >Keanu Reeves, after all), you really have to wonder whether she 'loves' him >because he's such a wonderful guy and all, or because he's the One and it's >expected of her. It's pretty clear from dialogue at the beginning and elsewhere that Neo is not the only person who has been a potential "One". There have been others who simply haven't worked out. I imagine that Trinity didn't fall in love with any of them and that that's why she takes her feelings for Neo as proof that he *is* the One. As for Keanu... generally, his acting is pretty terrible, but for this movie, I thought his style of non-acting fit pretty well. Sort of like the Buddhist state of "no-self"! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: XTC -- Apple Venus Volume 1 "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:29:13 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Star Wars: The Phantom Menace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 1 Jun 99, at 16:10, Marianne Reddin Aldrich wrote: >Baldur leans over and whispers a word in Odin's ear. >The word? "Rebirth." > >Now, that seems pretty darn messianic to me. But, > maybe we are using different definitions. There's no need to resort to "different definitions". "Messiah" is a simple English word which according to the *Oxford Dictionary of the English Language* means "The Hebrew title (= 'annointed') applied in the O.T. to the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation, hence to Jesus of Nazareth as such deliverer. Hence transfer. an expected deliverer of an oppressed people or country. (Written with a capital M)." The important point is "deliverer", - "a person who comes and, through his own efforts or sacrifice, leads [usually chosen] people out of slavery or oppression etc" (from Siegel's *A Concise Dictionary of Theology*), nothing about "rebirth". Baldur did not come as a saviour or to lead people out of oppression, thus he could NOT have been a Messiah. Revelations 1:1 states "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John". Revelations does NOT refer to the "coming of a Saviour", but to the "apocalyptic, destructive endtime" accompanying the *Second Coming* of the Messiah, to the arrival of the "Day of Judgment". Ragnarok can, in this context, be *roughly* equated to the "Day of Judgment" NOT to the coming of the Saviour. There ARE plenty of Messiahs in non-Christian literature. It's just that neither Baldur nor Hercules is one. >As an aside, I think that the vehement putting-down of other people's >theories on this is somewhat obnoxious. No one was "vehemently pulling-down" anyone else's theories. Santanico contradicted something Mike said by saying that "the general theory" was that Christians had stolen the Messiah theme. Mike corrected her - politely - by giving the true version, I corrected her version of the Hercules and, later, Baldur myths. That's all - simple disagreement over what are largely matters of fact. The word "obnoxious" is not one that should have been made in any context. We've been meticulously trying to avoid using such words about other people's comments. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 03:45:40 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: Star Wars vs. Wagner's Ring Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 1 Jun 99, at 12:43, Jennifer Krauel wrote: >Here in San Francisco, this summer we're blessed with Wagner's "Ring" >cycle of operas. Promoted with all the hype you might expect, just an >action figure short of Star Wars. In the Sunday paper the music critic >wrote a piece comparing the Ring to Star Wars. I thought list members >might be amused at this intersection of popular SF and classical arts. A very interesting article which also shows that there's nothing really new under the sun. I thought that the "-- R2-D2 = the Woodbird -- A friendly little critter who can pass on lots of useful information to any character able to understand what it's saying" was specially funny. I don't think that this is the first or even the 10th time that the comparison's been made. I can remember back in 1983 when The Return of the Jedi came out, there was an article in the Guardian which said the same thing ... although it did point out that Stars Wars ended on an upbeat note, not as "Gotterdammerung". I especially remember that article saying something to the effect that the happy ending was exactly the way the Ring cycle would have ended if Wagner had been born in California {;-)}. Ive also seen Star Wars compared to other things, including the Grail Quest legends. The obvious personal question: are you going to see the cycle? If so I envy you. I've seen Die Walkure and Siegfried only on video, and Das Rheingold and Gotterdammerung not at all. I'd love to see them all live - even if I ended up with a permanently numbed bottom! Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 03:46:53 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: average US incomes: corrected summary Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; On 1 Jun 99, at 7:47, Mike Stanton wrote: >At a guess, I'd say that the average person on this list buys 1-2 >new books and/or 3-4 used books per month although it's highly >unlikely that purchases are spread evenly thoughout the year. If youre right about this and your figures certainly *seem* reasonable, it means that, on average, people on this list buy about 20 books a year. Even the most devoted feminist sf admirer isn't likely to buy ONLY femsf books and the average person on the list would probably only buy 5 or 6 femsf books a year. I buy a lot more than 20 books a year, but Ive bought only 7 femsf books over the last year although I must have bought at least 5 times as many mysteries and thrillers which my husband and I both enjoy. Im not surprised that specialist bookstores in the US, like Maryelizabeth's place, Mysterious Galaxy, are having a tough time staying open. I suppose libraries in the US must by a lot of femsf for their clients but I doubt if that does small bookstores any good because US libraries are probably the same as European ones which always buy direct from the distributers where they get big discounts. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:31:26 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alison Hendon Subject: Re: average US incomes: corrected summary In-Reply-To: <19990602104653.77796.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Claudia wrote: . > > Im not surprised that specialist bookstores in the US, like Maryelizabeth's > place, Mysterious Galaxy, are having a tough time staying open. I suppose > libraries in the US must by a lot of femsf for their clients but I doubt if > that does small bookstores any good because US libraries are probably the > same as European ones which always buy direct from the distributers where > they get big discounts. Science fiction/fantasy is usually one of the smallest sections in the libraries where I've worked. I don't know which comes first, the low circulation or the small section, but the circulation is low and hence fewer books are bought for that area. Alison Alison Hendon ahendon@amanda.dorsai.org "Though my soul may set in darkness, It will rise in perfect light, I have loved the stars too fondly To be fearful of the night...." - Sarah Williams, "The Old Astronomer to His Pupil" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 07:14:55 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Star Wars vs. Wagner's Ring In-Reply-To: <19990602104541.16326.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My own take on that is a far-future sequel to Wagner's Ring cycle with the tenor singing Frodo and the bass singing Gollum. ;} Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:55:47 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: Star Wars vs. Wagner's Ring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" You say you want to see "the Ring"? Check this out, then; you've got two years (or six!) to plan on how to get to Seattle, and to save up for the tickets! :) They're doing a whole new production, to debut in 2001. http://www.seattleopera.org/Ring/index.shtml I grew up in Seattle; I was born in 1970 and left town in 1988 after I graduated from HS, and I never realized that it was strange for a local opera company to put on the Ring every single summer. I never saw it, though; I probably should have. I'm thinking about seeing it in 2001 or 2005, though; I've got my sabbatical coming up in 2001; I could handle spending a week or two of it in Seattle. :) I don't remember ever seeing much hype about it, though. I'll have to ask my mom when the new one gets closer if they're hyping it up (she still lives in the Seattle area). I can't tell for sure from the web site, but it doesn't look like they're doing both english and german this time (there's only one cast list, and the history section mentions different singers for the different languages when they did both before)....does anyone know for sure, and if they are doing just one langage, which one? (I'm _assuming_ German, but it doesn't seem to say for sure). The "Wagner" part of the "great composers" series that was on PBS last month showed some clips from Seattle's productions, including the post-modern one; they interviewed one of the Seattle fire chiefs, talking about how sitting backstage to watch over the pyro was one of the favorite duties to draw for his crews, and that they all come back big Wagner fans. :) -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > From: Claudia Lyndhurst [mailto:clyndhurst@HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 3:46 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Star Wars vs. Wagner's Ring > > > On 1 Jun 99, at 12:43, Jennifer Krauel wrote: > > >Here in San Francisco, this summer we're blessed with Wagner's "Ring" > >cycle of operas. Promoted with all the hype you might > expect, just an > >action figure short of Star Wars. In the Sunday paper the > music critic > >wrote a piece comparing the Ring to Star Wars. I thought > list members > >might be amused at this intersection of popular SF and > classical arts. > > A very interesting article which also shows that there's > nothing really new > under the sun. I thought that the "-- R2-D2 = the Woodbird -- > A friendly > little critter who can pass on lots of useful information to > any character > able to understand what it's saying" was specially funny. I > don't think that > this is the first or even the 10th time that the comparison's > been made. I > can remember back in 1983 when The Return of the Jedi came > out, there was an > article in the Guardian which said the same thing ... > although it did point > out that Stars Wars ended on an upbeat note, not as > "Gotterdammerung". I > especially remember that article saying something to the > effect that the > happy ending was exactly the way the Ring cycle would have > ended if Wagner > had been born in California {;-)}. Ive also seen Star Wars > compared to other > things, including the Grail Quest legends. > > The obvious personal question: are you going to see the > cycle? If so I envy > you. I've seen Die Walkure and Siegfried only on video, and > Das Rheingold > and Gotterdammerung not at all. I'd love to see them all > live - even if I > ended up with a permanently numbed bottom! > > > > Claudia > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:18:05 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Margery Kempe Subject: Re: average US incomes: corrected summary Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; I find this topic very interesting but I've just joined this list and don't have to posts leading up to it. Can someone please send me the main posts on this topic. Margery Kempe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:32:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: WB network two new "primetime" speculative fiction shows...plus o ne animated. Comments: To: HORROR@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU, Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" from the WB press releases: Tuesdays 9:00-10:00 p.m. "ANGEL" Joss Whedon, the executive producer and creator of The WB's first bona fide hit, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," combines supernatural adventure and dark humor in the next chapter of this mythology. Just as Whedon brought the monsters of adolescence to life with 'Buffy,' this new one-hour series will explore early adulthood with the same irony with which he viewed the high school years. The centuries-old vampire, Angel (David Boreanaz, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"), cursed with a conscience, has left the small town of Sunnydale and taken up residence in the City of Angels. Between pervasive evil and countless temptations lurking beneath the city's glittery facade, Los Angeles proves to be the ideal address for a fallen vampire looking to save a few lost souls. With the help of Cordelia (Charisma Carpenter, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer") and a disreputable mentor, Doyle (Glenn Quinn, "Roseanne"), Angel has one last chance to save his own soul by restoring hope to those impressionable young people locked in a losing battle with their own demons. From executive producers Whedon and David Greenwalt, the series is produced by Mutant Enemy, Inc. in association with Twentieth Century Fox Television. Wednesdays 9:00-10:00 p.m. "ROSWELL" A suspenseful and touching new drama that combines science fiction with the realities of young adulthood, this genre-bending one-hour series comes from writer/executive producer Jason Katims ("Relativity, "My So-Called Life") and director/co-executive producer David Nutter ("The X-Files," "Disturbing Behavior"). In the tiny, but notorious, southwestern town of Roswell, New Mexico, teenagers Liz (Shiri Appleby) and Max (Jason Behr, "Dawson's Creek") forge an otherworldly connection that saves her life and risks his. Max, his sister Isabel (Katherine Heigl, NBC's "The Tempest") and his friend Michael (Brendan Fehr, "Disturbing Behavior") share an unbelievable secret - they were orphaned on Earth after the infamous 1947 crash of an alien spaceship - and are passing unnoticed as "normal" Roswell teenagers. That is, until Liz experiences Max's powers firsthand, and the extraterrestrial trio must learn to trust Liz and her group of friends in order to keep their identity safe and stay one step ahead of local officials. Majandra Delfino, Colin Hanks, Nick Wechsler and William Sadler ("Disturbing Behavior") also star. Written by Katims, who serves as executive producer along with Kevin Kelly Brown (HBO's "Soul of the Game"), Jonathan Frakes ("Star Trek: The Next Generation") and Lisa J. Olin, the series is produced by Twentieth Century Fox Television and Regency Television. -----from the former MST3K guy and his ex-SIMPSONS partner... Thursdays 9:00-9:30 p.m. "THE DOWNTOWNERS" From Emmy Award-winning writer/producers Bill Oakley and Josh Weinstein ("The Simpsons") comes "The Downtowners," the first animated series about the world of teens and twentysomethings. The new half-hour comedy explores the lives of a hip 24-year-old and his sheltered suburban teenage brother, who moves in with him and his roommates in a big city loft. Wallace Langham ("The Larry Sanders Show," "Veronica's Closet") stars as the voice of Andy French, whose life is thrown into disarray when his parents move to Wyoming and he's forced to care for his 17-year-old brother ( the nave, nerdy Kevin (voiced by Scott Menville, "The Wonder Years"). Rounding out Kevin's bizarre new family are Andy's eccentric best friend Jim Kuback (voiced by Brian Posehn, "Mr. Show") and whimsical roommate Posey Tyler (voiced by Vicki Lewis, "NewsRadio"). The series is produced by Castle Rock Entertainment. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:21:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: BDG: Slow River discussion starts next Monday Comments: To: feministsf-lit@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Next Monday we begin discussion of our June BDG selection, Nicola Griffith's _Slow River_. Of course you can continue to discuss Grass, this is just a reminder to anyone (like me) who has put off re-reading until the last minute. Please note this discussion will take place on the FeministSF-Lit list, not the original list. I am cross-posting this reminder to both lists, but the discussion itself will only be on the new list. If you haven't signed up for it yet, please do by sending a message to: listserv@uic.edu in the body of the message say: subscribe feministsf-lit Myfirstname Mylastname example: subscribe feministsf-lit Laura Quilter Before then I thought it might be helpful to review a few points about the discussion. Most of this is covered on our fabulous BDG web site: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/index.html The book discussion group's objective is to focus discussion on a particular book at a particular time to get as many people participating and enjoying the group as possible. It's not meant to change the nature of the list, just focus the discussion. New book discussions begin monthly on the first Monday of the month, directly on the FeminstSF-lit list. Other works can of course be discussed at the same time on the list. Also, it's fine to discuss a book before the scheduled date, just remember to include spoilers in your early postings. If you want to initiate discussion about a book the group has already discussed that's OK as well, but it's polite to look through the archives first. Book group discussion messages should include the string "BDG" (for Book Discussion Group) in the subject. It would also be helpful to include the title or initials of the title in the subject, so that particularly enthusiastic discussions can spill over into the next month. Spoiler disclaimers are not necessary once discussion has begun. Members are encouraged to follow the general list rules such as quoting only the necessary parts of original messages in responses to reduce excess bandwidth. Discussion can be literary and theoretical or more concrete discussions about plot or character development. There's enough of a mix of people on the list that we can each participate in the aspects that interest us and ignore those aspects that don't. Remember, the group's purpose is to encourage rather than discourage discussion. Please assume that authors of the books are on the list, whether they announce their presence or not. This does NOT mean you should edit your comments to only say nice things. It DOES mean you should avoid personal attacks and be as specific in your comments as possible. Members (that's you!) are encouraged to suggest a bibliography of essays or other works pertaining to the book currently under discussion or the following month's book. Upcoming discussions: July 5 Connie Willis: To Say Nothing of the Dog Aug 2 Octavia Butler: Wild Seed Jennifer jkrauel@actioneer.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:57:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: And from the syndicated market... Comments: To: Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT Comments: cc: Virginia Ely MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" My colleague Virginia Ely warns us: The producers of Herc/Xena have a new show coming next January called "Cleopatra 2525" about a cryogenically frozen stripper(!) defrosted in a future subterranean society which she sets out trying to change for the better. (Check msn.com entertainment news if you think I'm kidding.) I guess if the dumb sitcoms aren't working anymore, they'll try anything. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:07:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: And from the syndicated market... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:57 AM 3/06/99 -0500, you wrote: >My colleague Virginia Ely warns us: > >The producers of Herc/Xena have a new show coming next January called >"Cleopatra 2525" about a cryogenically frozen stripper(!) defrosted in a >future subterranean society which she sets out trying to change for the >better. (Check msn.com entertainment news if you think I'm kidding.) I guess >if the dumb sitcoms aren't working anymore, they'll try anything. Can't you just hear the pitch made for this one? "Get this - it's 'Twin Peaks'...meets 'Futurama'...meets 'Earth 2'... meets 'VIP'!" Sant. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:25:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: PBS's small new contribution to fantastic television next season. .. Comments: To: sf in film and literature , "HORROR@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU" , Multiple recipients of list SF-LIT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" seems at the moment to be restricted to a show for very young children, DRAGON TALES, and a speculative science program (unless I misinterpret the title), LIFE BEYOND EARTH. Less relevant to us here, but welcome to me, is a revival of the AMERICAN PLAYHOUSE title, this time as an umbrella for a 10-part series about an "interracial" family called AN AMERICAN LOVE STORY. Still waiting for info on the syndicated market, and cable beyond the CRUSADE series on TNT to sequel BABYLON 5, and such continuing monuments as Showtime's EMMANUELLE IN SPACE. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 07:11:30 +0000 Reply-To: mystgalaxy@ax.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: mixed genres MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Claudia: Actually, it's people like you who help keep us in business. :) After all, not only do we carry FemSF, but General SF, and even the dreaded media tie ins. Also, the Mysterious part refers to the fact we carry mysteries and suspense and horror as well as SF. Our tag line, which is what I originally wanted to name the store but we felt was too long to say everytime we answered the telephone, is "Books of Martians, Murder, Magic and Mayhem." Next time you and hubby are out here, drop by! Maryelizabeth -- *********************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 619.268.4747 3904 Convoy Street, #107 Fax: 619.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@ax.com *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:46:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: PBS's small new contribution to fantastic television next season Todd Mason wrote: >>seems at the moment to be restricted to a show for very young children, DRAGON TALES, and a speculative science program (unless I misinterpret the title), LIFE BEYOND EARTH. Less relevant to us here, but welcome to me, is a revival of the AMERICAN PLAYHOUSE title, this time as an umbrella for a 10-part series about an "interracial" family called AN AMERICAN LOVE STORY.>> Hmm, unless someone plans to submit the story of Jael and Davy, I don't think this will be very science fiction-like, but it does sound interesting. Joyce >From the Web-Lab newsletter: Web Lab is creating a Web site inspired by "An American Love Story," a major series scheduled to air on PBS in September 1999. The series documents 1 1/2 years in the life of the Wilson-Sims family. Bill Sims (a black man) and Karen Wilson (a white woman) fell in love in 1967 and they've worked together for 30 years to overcome problems caused by their differences. The site will feature many different American Love Stories, stories about couples who have established intimate relationships that cross not just racial differences, but religious, ethnic, geographical, age and other boundaries as well. If you -- or someone you know well -- are in a relationship that bridges major differences, please consider submitting a story. http://www.pbs.org/lovestories ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 18:10:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Plumage from Pegasus and its discontent Comments: To: Fred Ollinger Comments: cc: SCIENCEFICTION-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Paul Di Fillipo writes this attempted-humor column for F&SF; like most of his work I've seen, it tends to get on my nerves. The installment in the July issue is better than most, taking as its launching point that Louis Armstrong was formerly quoted on the back-cover house ad the magazine ran in the early '60s, going on to suggest an alternate history in which jazz musicians and SF writers were incarcerated along with Japanese Americans and the two artforms became (rather shambolically) linked in a sort of soccer-team synergy. So far, cute enough...little typical PDF touches undermine it--a citation of Dave Brubeck as a prisoner before authorities were likely to know of his proclivities, the assassination of FDR in his third term leading to the elevation of Truman to the presidency (hard luck for the 3rd term VP, Henry Wallace)...I suppose these could be claimed to be alternate history rejigging; I suspect they are not. But perhaps I'm uncharitable. Certainly Neal Barrett, Jr.'s humor column in AMAZING, "Ask Dr. Sciense" (sic), is probably worse so far, particularly considering how much better a writer NB is. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:23:38 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: mixed genres Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed On 3 Jun 99, at 7:11, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: >Next time you and hubby are out here, drop by! I'd really love to Maryelizabeth. The difficulty with living in the middle of a sea is that because I read "minority" genres I never have anyone to talk to about it so I almost never get a chance to talk about feminist sf. Ive found it very easy to keep up to date with crime etc fiction because a friend sends me copies of the DOROTHYL digests but feminist sf/f isvery difficult. I've found your website very useful and it does make up in many ways. I'd also love to visit the US Pacific Coast but unfortunately travelling with a baby is difficult at the best of times so we'll have to put off any long trips until she's 2 or 3. Although if the Cricket World Cup had been in San Diego this year instead of England, I'm sure my husband would have thought of some compelling reason why we all had to be there {:-)} Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 17:23:58 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: mixed genres / Gwyneth Jones Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 5 Jun 99, at 9:23, Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: > Although if the Cricket World Cup had been > in San Diego this year instead of England, I'm sure > my husband would have thought of some > compelling reason why we all had to be there {:-)} I'm sure after the way England played, you'd now be back on your way home! I was hoping to see the final on the 20th but unfortunately I have to stay out here, probably until 29-30 June. Yesterday evening I read and, somewhat to my surprise, enjoyed Gwyneth Jones' _Northwind_ (****-). Although this is the middle book of a trilogy (the other two are _White Queen_ [1st] and _Phoenix cafe_ [3rd]), it's virtually stand-alone because references to the previous book in the trilogy are explained well. I (obviously) cannot recommend Jones *generally* because I've only read the one book, but her first book won the James Tiptree award (of which I know nothing other than that it's apparently given for books dealing with gender in innovative ways). I should warn you, however, that the person who lent me the book regarded it as ambiguous and in ways difficult to read; I didn't, but that may be because I missed the subtleties. Set at a time when a gender war is raging on the earth on a future Earth which has been "invaded" by a race of hermaphroditic aliens called "Aleutians", it's the story of Bella a young, crippled librarian and Carton, her keeper who virtually worships the Aleutians, two seekers after a McGuffin (in this case, a secret "Beam me up Scotty" matter transmitter) which may hold the key to saving civilisation. The gender was is complicated by the hatred that humans and the aliens have for each other. Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 00:15:31 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: Re: mixed genres / Gwyneth Jones Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed On 6 Jun 99, at 17:23, Mike Stanton wrote: >I was hoping to see the final on the 20th but unfortunately I have to stay >out here, probably until 29-30 June. Shouldn't you be at home supporting your wife in this difficult time instead of gallivanting around watching cricket {:-)} ? >Yesterday evening I read and, somewhat to my >surprise, enjoyed Gwyneth Jones' _Northwind_ >(****-). Although this is the middle book of a trilogy (the other two are >_White Queen_ [1st] and _Phoenix cafe_ [3rd]), it's >virtually stand-alone because references to the previous book in the >trilogy are >explained well. I agree with you, Mike. I read _White Queen_ a few years ago but for some reason didn't make the effort to keep up with her work. I found it fairly complex. The work, which reminds me *vaguely* of William Gibson (but not as nearly good or "realistic"), is a cyberpunk novel about a man who is a carrier of a virus which destroys computer "cores". Hermaphroditic aliens with unknown intentions from a large multigeneration starship land near the man's home. A reporter who's started an anti-alien society (called "White Queeen") contacts him and... [any more would spoil it]. It's not only complex but also ambiguous and the writing is neither clear nor easily followed. Her sentence structure is often (in some parts usually) irritating and this more than the complexity often makes the story line hard to follow which means one has to re-read a few pages at times. I found her work though to be so good that it's worth persisting with it in spite of her unnecessarily irritating way of writing. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 00:17:36 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Lyndhurst Subject: BDG: Slow River Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jennifer Krauel posted a note last week saying that the discussion of Nicole Griffith's Slow River was due to start today. I'm not on the "on topic" list because from what I hear it's far too academic but I enjoyed Slow River and thought that we might consider discussing it here. I don't think it would be unnecessary duplication because were not likely to see the book in the same way as femistsf-lit people. I still think that Mike's idea of a "light" book discussion group was a good one. Claudia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 08:34:15 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mike Stanton Subject: mixed genres / Slow River Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 7 Jun 99, at 0:15, Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: > Shouldn't you be at home supporting your wife in this difficult time > instead of gallivanting around watching cricket {:-)} ? Indeed but, while I *should* support my wife, I *have* to obey my boss so I'm on the horns of a dilemma - do I support the woman or obey the manager ? And it's worse than it appears - I'll have to fly directly from here to Berlin for employment interviews of 1-3 July! On _Slow River_: I think it's a good idea to discuss this book. As you imply, we're much more likely to take a lighter, more "populist" view of the book than the on-topic list although I think both approaches have their merits. Do you want the (somewhat dubious) honour of leading off, Claudia? Mike Stanton (m_stanton@postmaster.co.uk) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:38:47 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Janice E. Dawley" Subject: Re: mixed genres / Slow River MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: > Jennifer Krauel posted a note last week saying that the discussion of > Nicole Griffith's Slow River was due to start today. I'm not on the > "on topic" list because from what I hear it's far too academic but I > enjoyed Slow River and thought that we might consider discussing it > here. I don't think it would be unnecessary duplication because were > not likely to see the book in the same way as femistsf-lit people. Mike Stanton wrote: > On _Slow River_: I think it's a good idea to discuss this book. As you > imply, we're much more likely to take a lighter, more "populist" view > of the book than the on-topic list although I think both approaches > have their merits. Believe me, the FemSF-Lit list is no more "academic" than this one, it's just *on-topic*. Both of your insights would be welcome there! -- Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: XTC -- Apple Venus Volume 1 "Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:56:15 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer Krauel Subject: Re: mixed genres / Slow River In-Reply-To: <375BCB67.1C1F685B@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Claudia and Mike, I too would love to see you join in the discussion on Slow River. As Janice said, the new list is not necessarily more academic, just on topic. You may recall I've taken flames on-line for promoting a non-academic perspective! I hope you'll join me in helping to generate some lighter, populist discussion (that we all know everyone will enjoy regardless of their "orientation".) I believe that splitting the discussion over two lists will confuse most people, so I would rather push for making a broader discussion work on a single list. I hope you will join me in trying to make that work. If it doesn't work, then we can figure out how to do multiple-list discussions. Here's the instructions for signing up for the on-topic list -- send a message to: listserv@uic.edu in the body of the message say: subscribe feministsf-lit Myfirstname Mylastname example: subscribe feministsf-lit Laura Quilter Thanks, Jennifer At 09:38 AM 06/07/99 -0400, you wrote: >Claudia Lyndhurst wrote: >> Jennifer Krauel posted a note last week saying that the discussion of >> Nicole Griffith's Slow River was due to start today. I'm not on the >> "on topic" list because from what I hear it's far too academic but I >> enjoyed Slow River and thought that we might consider discussing it >> here. I don't think it would be unnecessary duplication because were >> not likely to see the book in the same way as femistsf-lit people. > >Mike Stanton wrote: >> On _Slow River_: I think it's a good idea to discuss this book. As you >> imply, we're much more likely to take a lighter, more "populist" view >> of the book than the on-topic list although I think both approaches >> have their merits. > >Believe me, the FemSF-Lit list is no more "academic" than this one, it's >just *on-topic*. Both of your insights would be welcome there! > >-- >Janice E. Dawley ............. Burlington, VT >http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ >Listening to: XTC -- Apple Venus Volume 1 >"Reality is nothing but a collective hunch." - Lily Tomlin >