From LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu Fri Aug 25 16:34:58 2000 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 18:32:34 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University of Illinois at Chicago (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0004B" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:24:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Amazon.com (was Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Nominiation In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20000404004947.00b50e00@tigger.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Chris Shaffer wrote: (snip) > p.s. I have ordered a few things from Amazon Bookstore and their customer > service and delivery times are good. Powells is a good independent > bookseller as well, though I've never used their online ordering. I've ordered from powells.com several times and have always been satisfied with their service and delivery. I love their policy of free shipping with an order of $50.00 or more. I have to admit that across the board their prices aren't quite as good as amazon but I still prefer to deal with powells. I've been able to find books at powells that amazon didn't have. > Librarians - Information Technology Leaders since 3000 BC > Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ > chris@bsinc.net AIM:ChrisShaff > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:03:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Amazon.com (was Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Nominiation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stacey Holbrook wrote: > > On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Chris Shaffer wrote: > > (snip) > > p.s. I have ordered a few things from Amazon Bookstore and their customer > > service and delivery times are good. Powells is a good independent > > bookseller as well, though I've never used their online ordering. > > I've ordered from powells.com several times and have always been satisfied > with their service and delivery. I love their policy of free shipping with > an order of $50.00 or more. I have to admit that across the board their > prices aren't quite as good as amazon but I still prefer to deal with > powells. I've been able to find books at powells that amazon didn't have. Yay! As a long-time customer myself, and as a resident of the Portland area, and as a person who has several friends who work for Michael Powell in his bookstore, I thank you for your patronage, and thank you for going there before going to Amazon.com. My ONLY beef with Powells is that they DO sell used paperback mass-market books, but you'd never know it from their online database, because they don't put anything in there that they're going to charge less than $5 for (they just write their price in pencil on the first page and put it on the shelf). So, if I want to find out if they have a particular book at the closer store, I can't just look it up online, I have to go there, or call and have an employee look on the shelf for me. I REALLY wish they'd just enter EVERYTHING, so I can just KNOW if they have it or not. *sigh*. Even the closer store is far enough away that I don't want to make a special trip unless I know they have what I want, and I don't like calling and making them check for me. -Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:20:39 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Amazon.com (was Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Nominiation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII fyi, i support ordering from independent bookstores instead of amazon.com. powell's is interesting; they've traditionally been lefty & progressive but has lately been reorganizing & management is fighting a huge union drive. On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Stacey Holbrook wrote: > On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Chris Shaffer wrote: > > (snip) > > p.s. I have ordered a few things from Amazon Bookstore and their customer > > service and delivery times are good. Powells is a good independent > > bookseller as well, though I've never used their online ordering. > > I've ordered from powells.com several times and have always been satisfied > with their service and delivery. I love their policy of free shipping with > an order of $50.00 or more. I have to admit that across the board their > prices aren't quite as good as amazon but I still prefer to deal with > powells. I've been able to find books at powells that amazon didn't have. > > > Librarians - Information Technology Leaders since 3000 BC > > Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ > > chris@bsinc.net AIM:ChrisShaff > > > > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) > Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 Learning Center Facilities Manager Exploratorium, San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:32:26 CDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Shannon Curry Subject: Transvestites and sexual preference Comments: To: listserv@uic.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello. I'm not sure this is legal, but I thought I would ask this question of all of you to hear your thoughts. I have a female character in a novel I'm writing who, due to some interesting circumstances beyond her control, ended up fleeing her homeland at a young age dressed as a boy. She successfully kept the pretense up for several years...I haven't quite found a number, but it is between seven and ten years. I was discussing this character with a friend of mine a little while ago who thought, since she adopted the pretense of being male, she would inevitably develop desire for women. However, I'd always assumed that she was heterosexual, because she didn't start out preferring other women. I guess, to put this philosophically, if someone is under those sorts of circumstances, *would* a person's preferences change? I'm curious to read what you all think. Shannon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:59:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference: Curry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Inasmuch as my ex was always drawn to "male" clothes and wore a buzz for several years, the answer would probably tend to be No (this is me being polite about your friend's remarkable assertion). Now, if the person, like Teena Brandon, had some reason to fear being considered lesbian and yet was, well, a lesbian, they might well take on a male guise. But that's not the question you asked. -----Original Message----- From: Shannon Curry [mailto:scurrykssb@HOTMAIL.COM] I have a female character in a novel I'm writing who, due to some interesting circumstances beyond her control, ended up fleeing her homeland at a young age dressed as a boy. She successfully kept the pretense up for several years...I haven't quite found a number, but it is between seven and ten years. I was discussing this character with a friend of mine a little while ago who thought, since she adopted the pretense of being male, she would inevitably develop desire for women. However, I'd always assumed that she was heterosexual, because she didn't start out preferring other women. I guess, to put this philosophically, if someone is under those sorts of circumstances, *would* a person's preferences change? I'm curious to read what you all think. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:51:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference In-Reply-To: <20000408203227.13189.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII IMO sexual preference is a complex of factors, experiences (environment) & biology. so while you can't say of any person that experience (a) or gene (b) will lead to them being straight / gay / attracted to small furry dogs / sexually confused -- you can say that experiences affect them. maybe dressing like a boy would make her like BOYS better. anyway just about any excuse is plausible. On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Shannon Curry wrote: > Hello. > I'm not sure this is legal, but I thought I would ask this question of all > of you to hear your thoughts. > I have a female character in a novel I'm writing who, due to some > interesting circumstances beyond her control, ended up fleeing her homeland > at a young age dressed as a boy. She successfully kept the pretense up for > several years...I haven't quite found a number, but it is between seven and > ten years. > I was discussing this character with a friend of mine a little while ago who > thought, since she adopted the pretense of being male, she would inevitably > develop desire for women. However, I'd always assumed that she was > heterosexual, because she didn't start out preferring other women. I guess, > to put this philosophically, if someone is under those sorts of > circumstances, *would* a person's preferences change? > I'm curious to read what you all think. > Shannon > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 Learning Center Facilities Manager Exploratorium, San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:17:18 EDT Reply-To: ma46@drexel.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marietta Angelotti Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed That's an odd thought isn't it -your sexual preference is determined by how you dress? marietta ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:29:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference In-Reply-To: <20000408203227.13189.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:32 PM 4/8/00 CDT, Shannon Curry wrote: >I have a female character in a novel I'm writing who, due to some >interesting circumstances beyond her control, ended up fleeing her homeland >at a young age dressed as a boy. She successfully kept the pretense up for >several years...I haven't quite found a number, but it is between seven and >ten years. >I was discussing this character with a friend of mine a little while ago who >thought, since she adopted the pretense of being male, she would inevitably >develop desire for women. However, I'd always assumed that she was >heterosexual, because she didn't start out preferring other women. I guess, >to put this philosophically, if someone is under those sorts of >circumstances, *would* a person's preferences change? >I'm curious to read what you all think. I think you're going to get differing but passionate answers, reflecting some of the responders' own situations. I think the etiology of sexual orientaion/preference is catastrophically under-researched. I don't know of any reasonable work (though I will be very happy to be informed). I think that no matter how clearly something is stated; no matter how placid, even-handed and innocuous it is; someone will feel that their ox has been gored. I think that the individual who is your character is not any other person, and, depending on the person she is, a variety of things are possible. You know her, I don't. Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:38:58 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: eva piccininni Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference In-Reply-To: <20000408203227.13189.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Shannon Curry wrote: > I have a female character in a novel I'm writing who, due to some > interesting circumstances beyond her control, ended up fleeing her homeland > at a young age dressed as a boy. She successfully kept the pretense up for > several years...I haven't quite found a number, but it is between seven and > ten years. > I was discussing this character with a friend of mine a little while ago who > thought, since she adopted the pretense of being male, she would inevitably > develop desire for women. [snip] i don't think gender identity and sexual orientation are necessarily related (especially in the case of your character, who is dressing as a man primarily due to external circumstances). after all, not all men desire women. i know a transsexual MtF woman who identifies as a lesbian, and i'm pretty sure she would agree with me. :) -> eva ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:48:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference: after Rest et alles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" If my response seemed intemperate, what triggered that was the silliness of insisting that gender disguise Must Necessarily cause a change of focus. Such complacency is yet another trap in our trap-laden human world. Neil, in his statement about your character, is absolutely right. Laura's suggestions seem eminently sensible. One may well grow more lustful of one's own gender under the circumstances you describe, but the inevitability of same is hardly a settled question. -----Original Message----- From: Neil Rest [mailto:NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM] I think you're going to get differing but passionate answers, reflecting some of the responders' own situations. I think the etiology of sexual orientaion/preference is catastrophically under-researched. I don't know of any reasonable work (though I will be very happy to be informed). I think that no matter how clearly something is stated; no matter how placid, even-handed and innocuous it is; someone will feel that their ox has been gored. I think that the individual who is your character is not any other person, and, depending on the person she is, a variety of things are possible. You know her, I don't. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:49:11 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Grete Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Shannon, I've been dressing like a straight girl all my life and that hasn't made me one iota less queer! Gender expression and sexual preference, while related in many ways, are not related predictably. Fortunately, humans are much more interesting creatures than your friend suggests. If you would really like to learn more about the complexities of gender, a good starting point is at border crossings: http://www.uiowa.edu/~commstud/resources/bordercrossings/gender.html If I remember correctly, Lillian Faderman's "Surpassing the Love of Men" also has a chapter or two on "passing women" - although most of the women she discusses *are* lesbian, the chapter may shed some light. Good luck, Grete ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 19:01:12 EDT Reply-To: ma46@drexel.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marietta Angelotti Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference: after Rest et alles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I suppose one way, among probably many others, that a gender disguise could lead to a "new" ability to be sexually attracted to an individual of one's own gender would be if the disguise was in fact just ALLOWING your character to have those feelings that were already there but being repressed by role-playing. I always thought that was what was going on with Barbra Streisand in Yentyl! >From: Todd Mason >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Transvestites and sexual preference: after Rest et > alles >Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:48:17 -0500 > >If my response seemed intemperate, what triggered that was the silliness of >insisting that gender disguise Must Necessarily cause a change of focus. >Such complacency is yet another trap in our trap-laden human world. Neil, >in his statement about your character, is absolutely right. Laura's >suggestions seem eminently sensible. One may well grow more lustful of >one's own gender under the circumstances you describe, but the >inevitability >of same is hardly a settled question. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Neil Rest [mailto:NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM] >I think you're going to get differing but passionate answers, reflecting >some of the responders' own situations. > >I think the etiology of sexual orientaion/preference is catastrophically >under-researched. I don't know of any reasonable work (though I will be >very happy to be informed). > >I think that no matter how clearly something is stated; no matter how >placid, even-handed and innocuous it is; someone will feel that their ox >has been gored. > >I think that the individual who is your character is not any other person, >and, depending on the person she is, a variety of things are possible. You >know her, I don't. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 16:41:03 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference: after Rest et alles In-Reply-To: <20000408230112.93719.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII if you're interested in a rigorously philosophical & logical take on this question try Edward Stein's: THE MISMEASURE OF DESIRE. it's an excellent discussion of the so-called science of sexuality. On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Marietta Angelotti wrote: > I suppose one way, among probably many others, that a gender disguise could > lead to a "new" ability to be sexually attracted to an individual of one's > own gender would be if the disguise was in fact just ALLOWING your character > to have those feelings that were already there but being repressed by > role-playing. I always thought that was what was going on with Barbra > Streisand in Yentyl! > > >From: Todd Mason > >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > > > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Transvestites and sexual preference: after Rest et > > alles > >Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:48:17 -0500 > > > >If my response seemed intemperate, what triggered that was the silliness of > >insisting that gender disguise Must Necessarily cause a change of focus. > >Such complacency is yet another trap in our trap-laden human world. Neil, > >in his statement about your character, is absolutely right. Laura's > >suggestions seem eminently sensible. One may well grow more lustful of > >one's own gender under the circumstances you describe, but the > >inevitability > >of same is hardly a settled question. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Neil Rest [mailto:NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM] > >I think you're going to get differing but passionate answers, reflecting > >some of the responders' own situations. > > > >I think the etiology of sexual orientaion/preference is catastrophically > >under-researched. I don't know of any reasonable work (though I will be > >very happy to be informed). > > > >I think that no matter how clearly something is stated; no matter how > >placid, even-handed and innocuous it is; someone will feel that their ox > >has been gored. > > > >I think that the individual who is your character is not any other person, > >and, depending on the person she is, a variety of things are possible. You > >know her, I don't. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 Learning Center Facilities Manager Exploratorium, San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:58:26 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Zerry Frank Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference: after Rest et alles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am imagining girl gazelles in dresses coyly flirting with boy gazelles clad in four-legged jeans and t-shirts that say "my antlers are bigger than yours" on them. Hmmmmmm. Amusing mental picture that. Just a guess. Could gender be cultural? it doesn't seem like any other species have this wardrobe versus sexual desire problem. It's amazing how much faith people put in what are essentially archetypical concepts. 'Course in the realm of fiction, anything goes. --- Laura Quilter wrote: > if you're interested in a rigorously philosophical & > logical take on this question try Edward Stein's: THE > MISMEASURE OF DESIRE. it's an excellent > discussion of the so-called science of sexuality. > > On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Marietta Angelotti wrote: > > > I suppose one way, among probably many others, > > that a gender disguise could lead to a "new" > > ability to be sexually attracted to an > > individual of one's own gender would be if the > > disguise was in fact just ALLOWING your character > > to have those feelings that were already there but > > being repressed by role-playing. I always thought > > that was what was going on with Barbra Streisand > > in Yentyl! > > > > >From: Todd Mason > > >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic > > >& utopian literature" > > > > > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Transvestites and sexual > > >preference: after Rest et > > > alles > > >Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:48:17 -0500 > > > > > >If my response seemed intemperate, what triggered > > >that was the silliness of insisting that gender > > >disguise Must Necessarily cause a change of focus. > > >Such complacency is yet another trap in our > > >trap-laden human world. Neil, in his statement > > >about your character, is absolutely right. Laura's > > >suggestions seem eminently sensible. One may > > >well grow more lustful of one's own gender under > > >the circumstances you describe, but the inevitability > > >of same is hardly a settled question. > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Neil Rest [mailto:NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM] > > >I think you're going to get differing but passionate > > >answers, reflecting some of the responders' own situations. > > > > > >I think the etiology of sexual orientaion/preference is > > >catastrophically under-researched. I don't know of any > > >reasonable work (though I will be very happy to be informed). > > > > > >I think that no matter how clearly something is stated; no > > >matter how placid, even-handed and innocuous it is; someone > > >will feel that their ox has been gored. > > > > > >I think that the individual who is your character is not > > >any other person, and, depending on the person she is, a > > >variety of things are possible. You know her, I don't. > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at > http://www.hotmail.com > > > > Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu > ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 > Learning Center Facilities Manager > Exploratorium, San Francisco > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:14:14 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/8/0 5:52:19 PM, lquilte quoted the original, which I don't think I actaully received... << > I have a female character in a novel I'm writing who, due to some > interesting circumstances beyond her control, ended up fleeing her homeland > at a young age dressed as a boy. >> Lots of us women "dress like boys." I'm writing this note while wearing sweat pants and a blue denim shirt I bought in the boy's dept of a store. (Often shop the boys dept because their shirts fit me better, and the buttons tend to stay on.) Wearing such togs hasn't changed my gender preference at all, nor do they make me feel masculine. Deliberate _masking_ as another gender is a different thing from wearing male attire because one must to -- survive, get somewhere, make a point, etc etc... Are you just saying _The clothes make the man?_ Naw... don't think so. best, phoebe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 21:06:15 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My own take on this is that our feelings and desires are very unruly and unbiddable, and if our culture didn't grind heterosexuality into us -- and if women's sexuality weren't a major source of abuse by men -- many more people would be omnisexual than currently are. I'm in a happy heterosexual marriage, but I've certainly been attracted to women, and I know plenty of others who have expressed that to me as well. Anyhow, I agree with the numerous sensible things people have said. If your character has an attraction to women, then being in a role that makes that socially acceptable might allow her to express it. Otherwise I can't see her clothes making a difference. On a related note, has anyone else noticed the fun Shakespeare's comedies such as Twelfth night (and there was at least one other; was it Much Ado About Nothing?) played with gender confusion and had hints of homoeroticism as well? I've never read or heard a discussion of it, but I've definitely seen it when watching the televised plays. -l. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 23:29:12 EDT Reply-To: ma46@drexel.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marietta Angelotti Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Transvestites and sexual preference >Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 21:06:15 -0600 > >My own take on this is that our feelings and desires are very unruly and >unbiddable, and if our culture didn't grind heterosexuality into us -- and >if women's sexuality weren't a major source of abuse by men -- many more >people would be omnisexual than currently are. I'm in a happy heterosexual >marriage, but I've certainly been attracted to women, and I know plenty of >others who have expressed that to me as well. > >Anyhow, I agree with the numerous sensible things people have said. If >your >character has an attraction to women, then being in a role that makes that >socially acceptable might allow her to express it. Otherwise I can't see >her clothes making a difference. > >On a related note, has anyone else noticed the fun Shakespeare's comedies >such as Twelfth night (and there was at least one other; was it Much Ado >About Nothing?) played with gender confusion and had hints of homoeroticism >as well? I've never read or heard a discussion of it, but I've definitely >seen it when watching the televised plays. > > >-l. Hey-I def. noticed it too and even wrote a paper on it in high school-now so long ago that I have no idea what I wrote-thank goddess-I'm sure it's much better in my memory than it actually was! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 23:58:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference In-Reply-To: <200004090306.VAA69437@mail2.thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >On a related note, has anyone else noticed the fun Shakespeare's comedies >such as Twelfth night (and there was at least one other; was it Much Ado >About Nothing?) played with gender confusion and had hints of homoeroticism >as well? I've never read or heard a discussion of it, but I've definitely >seen it when watching the televised plays. This is a popular topic for discussion among Shakespeare students and scholars. In fact, Twelfth Night has been banned in the United States for promoting homosexuality (source, Banned Books Resource Guide, http://www.ala.org/bbooks/resource.html). There's a nice long discussion at (http://www.shakespeare.com/qandr/others/4.2.97/messages/223.html). ----- This is a test of the Emergency Broadcast System. This is only a test. Had this been an actual emergency, you'd be writhing on the ground in unspeakable agony, bleeding from every orifice, with your blackened skin falling away in ragged strips. Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ chris@bsinc.net AIM:ChrisShaff ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:09:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Shakespeare's bawdy was Re: [*FSFFU*] Transvestites and sexual preference In-Reply-To: <200004090306.VAA69437@mail2.thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:06 PM 4/8/00 -0600, "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" wrote: > >On a related note, has anyone else noticed the fun Shakespeare's comedies >such as Twelfth night (and there was at least one other; was it Much Ado >About Nothing?) played with gender confusion and had hints of homoeroticism >as well? I've never read or heard a discussion of it, but I've definitely >seen it when watching the televised plays. > They do mention in English class that Shakespeare wrote to the pit, but usually don't get more specific. (Quoting from memory -- I'm confident enough of my accuracy for my point, but may well not be letter perfect!) In _Twelfth Night_, when Malvolio is being fooled by the forged letter, and studies the handwriting, he says, "These be her Cs, her Us, and her Ts. And thus doth she make her great Ps." Even Hamlet asks Ophelia, "May I lay in you lap, my lady?" "No, my lord" "I meant, may I lay my head in your lap." "Aye, my lord." I don't offhand recall what the shock is which makes Falstaff exclaim, "I'll never spit white again!" Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 03:27:42 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Victoria Somogyi Subject: Re: Transvestites and Sexual Preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit May I recommend Maureen McHugh's Mission Child, which has a protagonist who is somewhere between dressing as a man for external reasons and being transgender. I have read of MtF transexuals who have a strong heterosexual identity, and consequently switch, with the sex change, from being heterosexual men to heterosexual women. Presumably the gender of their partners is of less concern to them than their sense of being heterosexual. Obviously has a lot to do with culture. Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 07:00:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: teragram Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference In-Reply-To: <200004090306.VAA69437@mail2.thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Shannon wrote : 'I have a female character in a novel I'm writing who, due to some interesting circumstances beyond her control, ended up fleeing her homeland at a young age dressed as a boy. She successfully kept the pretense up for several years...I haven't quite found a number, but it is between seven and ten years.' My take on this is that because your character is not 'merely' crossdressing - she is impersonating a man - she would be more likely to develop an attraction towards women. NOT that 'clothes make the man' (that would be silly), but that in playing a role every day for years and years, it becomes natural (and survival oriented) to incorporate aspects of that role into one's self. Presumably, at some point your character (in her masculine guise) would be expected to be attracted to women - this would be part of her role. The degree to which these expectations would have an impact is largely dependent on the culture, the age of your character during the years undercover, and the character herself. I do believe we can be (and are) trained to be attracted towards 'beauty', whatever that may be in our lexicon. my two cents. meg 같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같� It's been lovely, but I have to scream now. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:23:18 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recommend Julie Wheelwright's Amazons and Military Maids for a discussion of real-life women who masqueraded as soldiers etc Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah -----Original Message----- From: Shannon Curry To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: 08 April 2000 21:46 Subject: [*FSFFU*] Transvestites and sexual preference >Hello. >I'm not sure this is legal, but I thought I would ask this question of all >of you to hear your thoughts. >I have a female character in a novel I'm writing who, due to some >interesting circumstances beyond her control, ended up fleeing her homeland >at a young age dressed as a boy. She successfully kept the pretense up for >several years...I haven't quite found a number, but it is between seven and >ten years. >I was discussing this character with a friend of mine a little while ago who >thought, since she adopted the pretense of being male, she would inevitably >develop desire for women. However, I'd always assumed that she was >heterosexual, because she didn't start out preferring other women. I guess, >to put this philosophically, if someone is under those sorts of >circumstances, *would* a person's preferences change? >I'm curious to read what you all think. >Shannon >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:39:39 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debbie Notkin Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference In-Reply-To: <20000408203227.13189.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:32 PM 04/08/2000, Shannon Curry wrote: >I was discussing this character with a friend of mine a little while ago who >thought, since she adopted the pretense of being male, she would inevitably >develop desire for women. However, I'd always assumed that she was >heterosexual, because she didn't start out preferring other women. I guess, >to put this philosophically, if someone is under those sorts of >circumstances, *would* a person's preferences change? The answer is, as all complex answers about people are: "It depends on the person (and the culture and the situation and the expectations)." In our current world, some actual transgender people (who are not _pretending_ to be another gender, but actually _are_ a different gender) find that their sexuality shifts as their gender shifts. Others never change what attracts them. Many experience some changes but not a complete change. However, your character is not transgender; she's playing a role. In that case, it would also depend on _how_ she plays a role. Does she lie in bed at night and remind herself that she's really a woman and this is a deeply serious game played for survival? Or does she lie in bed at night and truly reinforce her "male" role in her head. Here's an example: some blond Jews fled the Nazi regime by pretending to be Aryans and making sure no one ever saw their circumcisions. I read a memoir by one such who held desperately onto his Jewishness in secret, silently repeating the prayers to himself, and so forth. Others, inevitably, found it easier not to think about their background and heritage and slowly found themselves embracing the Christian faith, and sometimes even the Nazi ideals. People are complicated. The rules for these things are that there are no rules. I would suggest also keeping in mind Samuel Delany's advice about characterization, which (roughly paraphrased) is that the less likely a characteristic you give a character, the more you have to explain it. In this case, I personally think it would take more explanation to make her preferences completely change than it would to have her continue to be attracted to men (assuming that she started out attracted to men). What she does about that attraction is yet another complicated set of questions. Hope this helps. -- Debbie Notkin kith@slip.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 09:34:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debbie Notkin Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference: after Rest et alles In-Reply-To: <20000409015826.22620.qmail@web4106.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:58 PM 04/08/2000, Zerry Frank wrote: > Could gender be cultural? it doesn't >seem like any other species have this wardrobe versus >sexual desire problem. I don't know. I'm just starting to read Bruce Bagemihl's BIOLOGICAL EXUBERANCE about gay, queer, trans, poly, and other behaviors in the animal kingdom. I'd now be hard put to say that there's _anything_ other species don't do. Check the book out; it will change your view of humans as part of the natural world forever. -- Debbie Notkin kith@slip.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:35:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000409083258.00ac0390@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:39 AM 4/9/00 -0700, Debbie Notkin wrote: > >People are complicated. The rules for these things are that there are no >rules. Um. Rather than "there are no rules", my opinion is that "We don't understand the patterns, the sources, the imprint vulnerabilities, the conditionings, etc." I don't see any a priori reason to believe that sexual feelings, impulses, and behaviors are any more incomprehensible or patternless than other areas of human psychology. Just harder to research . . . for psychological reasons. Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:57:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Zerry Frank Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What about the concept of genetic sources for sexual orientaton? I know many people who have told me being gay for them is "not a choice". (Gender being completley seperate from sexual orientation, since the first is formed by culture and evolves according to the needs and prejudices of that culture and the second is biological). IMHO If she hasn't got the biological predisposition, no amount of dressing or play acting as a man is going to make her "really" want women. --- Neil Rest wrote: > At 08:39 AM 4/9/00 -0700, Debbie Notkin > wrote: > > > > >People are complicated. The rules for these things > are that there are no > >rules. > > Um. Rather than "there are no rules", my opinion is > that "We don't > understand the patterns, the sources, the imprint > vulnerabilities, the > conditionings, etc." I don't see any a priori > reason to believe that > sexual feelings, impulses, and behaviors are any > more incomprehensible or > patternless than other areas of human psychology. > Just harder to research > . . . for psychological reasons. > > > Neil > > -- > NeilRest@enteract.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:42:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference In-Reply-To: <20000409195735.23461.qmail@web4103.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, Zerry Frank wrote: > What about the concept of genetic sources for sexual > orientaton? I know many people who have told me being > gay for them is "not a choice". "not a choice" of course doesn't necessarily mean genetic; it just means (for that person) very early determinative factors. one could for instance have an environmental experience in the womb (hormonal washes has been one suggestion) or an environmental experience at two years of age, and those could create a perceived fixity in sexual orientation. and of course their experience is subjectively lived. that doesn't mean it's invalid. but my present claimed identity colors my perceptions of all my past experiences. claiming an identity at all -- especially one that is subject to discrimination, fear, hatred -- is a strong statement to make about oneself & therefore all related perceptions are highly subjective. > (Gender being completley seperate from sexual > orientation, since the first is formed by culture and > evolves according to the needs and prejudices of that > culture and the second is biological). IMHO If she it's problematic to say that sexual orientation is biological. it's biological in the sense that anything that a biological entity does is biological. > hasn't got the biological predisposition, no amount of > dressing or play acting as a man is going to make her > "really" want women. i disagree. acting in roles can turn you on to that role. it doesn't have to, of course, and it can also turn you off to that role, or have no impact at all. but of course acting in a role could get you into that role. Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 Learning Center Facilities Manager Exploratorium, San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:56:57 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have to disagree with Zerry Frank here. IMHO, both sexual orientation (I prefer to call it sexual identity) and gender are formed by the needs and prejudices of the culture. I *chose* to be a lesbian because I discovered feminism. I had had no prior attraction to women and I've now been a lesbian for 20 years. I know many other women who travelled the same path. That tells me that sexual orientation (at least in some women with class and race privilege) is mutable. I know no gay men who travelled that path, because in a male-dominated society they get few benefits from being gay and a lot of costs, while lesbians get a lot of benefits as well as the costs. Researchers ask the choice question of gays all the time, but rarely of heterosexuals, thus betraying their prejudices. How many heterosexual people ever *had* a choice? My 2c about the character who is "passing" is that no matter whether she was originally attracted to women or not, being/acting as a man in a heterosexist culture (I don't know what culture she's in but I'm assuming) would at least make her have to face the possibility of attraction to women. Jenny Rankine -----Original Message----- From: Zerry Frank To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Monday, 10 April 2000 08:00 Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Transvestites and sexual preference >What about the concept of genetic sources for sexual >orientaton? I know many people who have told me being >gay for them is "not a choice". >(Gender being completley seperate from sexual >orientation, since the first is formed by culture and >evolves according to the needs and prejudices of that >culture and the second is biological). IMHO If she >hasn't got the biological predisposition, no amount of >dressing or play acting as a man is going to make her >"really" want women. > > >--- Neil Rest wrote: >> At 08:39 AM 4/9/00 -0700, Debbie Notkin >> wrote: >> >> > >> >People are complicated. The rules for these things >> are that there are no >> >rules. >> >> Um. Rather than "there are no rules", my opinion is >> that "We don't >> understand the patterns, the sources, the imprint >> vulnerabilities, the >> conditionings, etc." I don't see any a priori >> reason to believe that >> sexual feelings, impulses, and behaviors are any >> more incomprehensible or >> patternless than other areas of human psychology. >> Just harder to research >> . . . for psychological reasons. >> >> >> Neil >> >> -- >> NeilRest@enteract.com >> > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:55:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Zerry Frank Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hmmm. well I agree in the sense that culture cannot be factored out as an influence, but I also think that there is a distinct DIFFERENCE between gender and sexuality. Because a society arbitrarily decides that certain behaviors and uniforms designate a "man" and certain behaviors designate a "woman" doesn't mean that those behaviors and uniforms will determine sexuality. Certainly they will influence it. But they will not be the ultimate deciding factors in whether or not somebody decides on a certain pattern of sexual behavior UNLESS that pattern of sexual behavior is part of the organism's natural predilection. An opinion nothing more...[:# --- Jenny Rankine wrote: > Have to disagree with Zerry Frank here. IMHO, both > sexual orientation (I > prefer to call it sexual identity) and gender are > formed by the needs and > prejudices of the culture. I *chose* to be a > lesbian because I discovered > feminism. I had had no prior attraction to women > and I've now been a > lesbian for 20 years. I know many other women who > travelled the same path. > That tells me that sexual orientation (at least in > some women with class and > race privilege) is mutable. I know no gay men who > travelled that path, > because in a male-dominated society they get few > benefits from being gay and > a lot of costs, while lesbians get a lot of benefits > as well as the costs. > > Researchers ask the choice question of gays all the > time, but rarely of > heterosexuals, thus betraying their prejudices. How > many heterosexual > people ever *had* a choice? > > My 2c about the character who is "passing" is that > no matter whether she was > originally attracted to women or not, being/acting > as a man in a > heterosexist culture (I don't know what culture > she's in but I'm assuming) > would at least make her have to face the possibility > of attraction to women. > > Jenny Rankine > > -----Original Message----- > From: Zerry Frank > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > Date: Monday, 10 April 2000 08:00 > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Transvestites and sexual > preference > > > >What about the concept of genetic sources for > sexual > >orientaton? I know many people who have told me > being > >gay for them is "not a choice". > >(Gender being completley seperate from sexual > >orientation, since the first is formed by culture > and > >evolves according to the needs and prejudices of > that > >culture and the second is biological). IMHO If she > >hasn't got the biological predisposition, no amount > of > >dressing or play acting as a man is going to make > her > >"really" want women. > > > > > >--- Neil Rest wrote: > >> At 08:39 AM 4/9/00 -0700, Debbie Notkin > >> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> >People are complicated. The rules for these > things > >> are that there are no > >> >rules. > >> > >> Um. Rather than "there are no rules", my opinion > is > >> that "We don't > >> understand the patterns, the sources, the imprint > >> vulnerabilities, the > >> conditionings, etc." I don't see any a priori > >> reason to believe that > >> sexual feelings, impulses, and behaviors are any > >> more incomprehensible or > >> patternless than other areas of human psychology. > >> Just harder to research > >> . . . for psychological reasons. > >> > >> > >> Neil > >> > >> -- > >> NeilRest@enteract.com > >> > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > >http://im.yahoo.com > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:14:44 EDT Reply-To: ma46@drexel.edu Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marietta Angelotti Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Neil Rest >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Transvestites and sexual preference >Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:35:30 -0500 > >At 08:39 AM 4/9/00 -0700, Debbie Notkin wrote: > > > > >People are complicated. The rules for these things are that there are no > >rules. > >Um. Rather than "there are no rules", my opinion is that "We don't >understand the patterns, the sources, the imprint vulnerabilities, the >conditionings, etc." I don't see any a priori reason to believe that >sexual feelings, impulses, and behaviors are any more incomprehensible or >patternless than other areas of human psychology. Just harder to research >. . . for psychological reasons. > > >Neil > >-- >NeilRest@enteract.com Why assume everything should have a pattern, ultimately? Closed systems, and pieces of the world, and pieces of people and their psychology, may finally submit to our pattern-making.... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:52:39 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Hughes, John (NAT)" Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > At 08:39 AM 4/9/00 -0700, Debbie Notkin wrote: > >> >>People are complicated. The rules for these things are that there are no >>rules. >Um. Rather than "there are no rules", my opinion is that "We don't >understand the patterns, the sources, the imprint vulnerabilities, the >conditionings, etc." I don't see any a priori reason to believe that >sexual feelings, impulses, and behaviors are any more incomprehensible or >patternless than other areas of human psychology. Just harder to research >. . . for psychological reasons. And ideological ones, especially current academic ideologies. The division between sex and gender is a basic one in the social sciences, sex relating to psycho-biological-genetic factors and influences and gender to cultural and ideological ones. The interactions between genetic and cultural dispositions (not causes - predispositions) are subtle and little understood (and sometimes a taboo area under current academic ideological regimes). My thought is that, dealing as we are with realms of the possible, a fruitful area of inspiration would be to read anthropological explorations of sexual identity in other cultures. In most areas of sexual experience, it is our own culture that is unusual in terms of the manifestations of sexuality: romance, dating, lifestyle sexuality, the positing of identity around sexual mores, economic independence, clear separation of sex and breeding, and between sex and marriage. Anthropological examinations of transvestism have uncovered several aspects of interest to the current discussion. The Amerindian custom of berdache, for example, involved transvestism of both sexes, not always linked to homosexuality. The social role of gender reversal (and sometimes of homosexuality) was linked to the realm of the sacred, and strongly linked to ritual power. It's nice to see the list bubbling again. Regards John Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:48:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, ok, now I have to stop lurking. I know that we are dangerously off the topic of literature here, but anyway-- I was married for ten years, but that didn't make me heterosexual. I read many of the feminist writers (Adrienne Rich, for instance) who made the case that a truly feminist woman could not in good conscience live with a man. Even so, I couldn't blame my husband for what other men had done, nor for the priveleges which accrued to him simply because he was a white male. Neither reasoning, nor exposure to lesbians, nor anger at past male oppression, in my opinion, have much chance of turning a person into a lesbian if she is not one already. My question to the "lesbian feminists" is this: you may have been in a lesbian relationship for quite some time, but do you find yourself attacted to other women? Do you get that ears-turning-red rush when you aren't even looking and a woman walks by wearing just the right scent? Do you find yourself tongue-tied sometimes when a beautiful (to you) woman comes on to you? Do you get that shit-eating grin when you see your favorite actress smile at the camera? My point is, do you really believe that being a lesbian by political choice is the same thing as finding it thrust (so to speak) by hormones and biology upon you? THIS is the sense in which MY sexual orientation is not a choice. I like men, I used to have sex with one, I can sometimes even find their sculpted bodies beautiful--but they don't make me go "schwing." Sheryl >Have to disagree with Zerry Frank here. IMHO, both sexual orientation (I >prefer to call it sexual identity) and gender are formed by the needs and >prejudices of the culture. I *chose* to be a lesbian because I discovered >feminism. I had had no prior attraction to women and I've now been a >lesbian for 20 years. I know many other women who travelled the same path. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:33:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stacey Holbrook Subject: Re: Amazon.com (was Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG Nominiation In-Reply-To: <38EF664C.A8DCB599@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Sandy Candioglos wrote: > Yay! As a long-time customer myself, and as a resident of the Portland > area, and as a person who has several friends who work for Michael > Powell in his bookstore, I thank you for your patronage, and thank you > for going there before going to Amazon.com. You are welcome! My local independent bookstore closed down last year and I dreaded having to buy books online (the local chain bookstores are pretty generic in what they carry-- lots of selection if you like Piers Anthony or Mercedes Lackey). > -Sandy > Stacey (ausar@netdoor.com) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:26:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Catherine Crook de Camp, 1907-2000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" [crossposted from the NESFA listserv to Timebinders by Joyce Scrivner] Dear friends: With grieving hearts we regret to inform you of the passing of Catherine de Camp Following is the obituary notice that will be published in various newspapers. Catherine Crook de Camp, teacher, author, and editor, born in New York City on November 6, 1907, greatly beloved wife of L. Sprague de Camp passed away quietly on April 9, 2000. Formerly a resident of Villanova, Pennsylvania, she and her husband have called Plano, Texas their home since 1989. Catherine is survived by Sprague, her husband of 60 years, her sons Lyman Sprague de Camp of Garland, Texas and Gerard Beekman de Camp of Dallas, Texas; grandchildren, Michael Rossman, Patricia Chalstrom, and Veronica de Camp; great grandchildren Nicholas Rossman and Samuel Rossman. Plans for a local memorial service will be announced. Catherine will be cremated and her final resting place will be at Arlington National Cemetery with her husband. Catherine graduated Magna Cum Laude from New York's Barnard College in 1933, where she received her Phi Beta Kappa key. She double majored in English and Economics, which proved to be a fitting preparation for a writer's wife. As a young graduate, she taught English and tutored students at private secondary schools in New York City, until her sister introduced her to her future husband. In addition to co-writing and editing science fiction and nonfiction books with her writer husband, Sprague, she was an accomplished author in her own right. Her published works include: "The Money Tree", "Teach Your Child to Manage Money" and "Creatures of the Cosmos." A member of Science Fiction Writers of America, The Authors Guild, First Fandom and other distinguished organizations; Catherine was also a world traveler. She enjoyed attending numerous Science Fiction conventions with her husband, Sprague, until her declining health in recent years made that no longer possible. Her sister, Dorothy Crook Hazard of Chevy Chase, Maryland and brothers, Gerard Beekman Crook of Rochester, New York and Morgan Crook of New York City, preceded Catherine in death. Catherine Crook de Camp will be remembered for her warmth, charm and intelligence as she reached out to science fiction colleagues, friends and fans worldwide. She encouraged young people to read and enjoy science fiction, to respect the world in which they lived and to participate in the world around them. She especially enjoyed coaching beginning writers to excel in their work. She will be sorely missed. In lieu of flowers, the family requests donations to the Alzheimer's Association. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:38:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? Comments: cc: "sciencefiction-l@listserv.indiana.edu" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Paul Brians [mailto:brians@MAIL.WSU.EDU] Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 4:08 PM To: SF-LIT@RS8.LOC.GOV Subject: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? I am working with a high school teacher who has been challenged before the school board because she has taught Margaret Atwood's _The Handmaid's Tale_. She is looking for evidence that the book is widely taught as a respectable literary text in college courses--and if possible--in high school courses. I've found a number of syllabi in the Web; but perhaps some of you have information that would help her. Please send messages to her directly:Elizabeth Coman , and cc them to me. Thanks, Paul Brians, Department of English Washington State University Pullman, WA 99164-5020 brians@wsu.edu http://www.wsu.edu/~brians ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:55:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Zerry Frank Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I had a thought yesterday which many people will probably find silly but it illustrates this debate rather well, I think. Supposing we lived in a society where choice of salad dressing was the center of a whole LOT of social taboo and ritual and general public concern. Suppose also that we've only got two salad dressings to choose from (Italian and ranch) and the majority of people are expected to eat only one or only the other. Would we have debates about the root of "taste bud orientation?". If I try to eat ranch dressing, I gag. I mean I just hate the stuff and there is no reason to assume this is some kind of social conditioning, since, every one I know loves the stuff. But I have a "gut" reaction to wretch and that, (as they say) is that. Now, pleasure centers and how they get activated etc;do have physiological components. "Sexual Orientation" as we define it, is a cultural idea and I'm not saying that biology makes some people eat only ranch and some people eat only Italian. It seems obvious that that is social. What I am saying is that if your character is truly heterosexual (not just socially heterosexual) meaning that "ranch makes her gag, the pleasure centers just do go ON etc;) then nothing will change that. Just like nothing will make me not feel sick when confronted with a salad smothered in ranch dressing. As an offshoot of this though, one is forced then to consider that a large many people who are "hetero" supposedly have been sort of forced to accept that identity for social reasons. Sooo if she internally could eat ranch AND Italian (but perhaps might prefer one over the other) from the beginning (and it's likely that a lot of people fit into this category) then it's possible that she might use her transvestite situation as an avenue out of that type of repression. ok anyways I promise to be quiet now [:# --- Jocelyn & Sheryl wrote: > Well, ok, now I have to stop lurking. I know that > we are dangerously off > the topic of literature here, but anyway-- > I was married for ten years, but that didn't make me > heterosexual. I read > many of the feminist writers (Adrienne Rich, for > instance) who made the case > that a truly feminist woman could not in good > conscience live with a man. > Even so, I couldn't blame my husband for what other > men had done, nor for > the priveleges which accrued to him simply because > he was a white male. > Neither reasoning, nor exposure to lesbians, nor > anger at past male > oppression, in my opinion, have much chance of > turning a person into a > lesbian if she is not one already. My question to > the "lesbian feminists" > is this: you may have been in a lesbian relationship > for quite some time, > but do you find yourself attacted to other women? > Do you get that > ears-turning-red rush when you aren't even looking > and a woman walks by > wearing just the right scent? Do you find yourself > tongue-tied sometimes > when a beautiful (to you) woman comes on to you? Do > you get that > shit-eating grin when you see your favorite actress > smile at the camera? My > point is, do you really believe that being a lesbian > by political choice is > the same thing as finding it thrust (so to speak) by > hormones and biology > upon you? THIS is the sense in which MY sexual > orientation is not a choice. > I like men, I used to have sex with one, I can > sometimes even find their > sculpted bodies beautiful--but they don't make me go > "schwing." > Sheryl > > > > >Have to disagree with Zerry Frank here. IMHO, both > sexual orientation (I > >prefer to call it sexual identity) and gender are > formed by the needs and > >prejudices of the culture. I *chose* to be a > lesbian because I discovered > >feminism. I had had no prior attraction to women > and I've now been a > >lesbian for 20 years. I know many other women who > travelled the same path. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:00:58 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Hughes, John (NAT)" Subject: FW: [*FSFFU*] Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > At 08:39 AM 4/9/00 -0700, Debbie Notkin wrote: > > >> > >>People are complicated. The rules for these things are that there are no > >>rules. > > >Um. Rather than "there are no rules", my opinion is that "We don't > >understand the patterns, the sources, the imprint vulnerabilities, the > >conditionings, etc." I don't see any a priori reason to believe that > >sexual feelings, impulses, and behaviors are any more incomprehensible or > >patternless than other areas of human psychology. Just harder to > research > >. . . for psychological reasons. > > And ideological ones, including current academic ideologies. > (All my two cents worth of course). > The division between sex and gender is a basic one in the social sciences, > sex relating to psycho-biological-genetic factors and influences and > gender to cultural and ideological ones. The interactions between genetic > and cultural dispositions (not causes - predispositions) are subtle and > little understood (and sometimes a taboo area under current academic and > other social/political/ ideological regimes). > > My thought is that, dealing as we are with realms of the possible, a > fruitful area of inspiration would be to read anthropological explorations > of sexual identity in other cultures. > > In most areas of sexual experience, it is our own culture that is unusual > in terms of the manifestations of sexuality: romance, dating, lifestyle > sexuality, the positing of identity around sexual mores, economic > independence, clear separation of sex and breeding, and between sex and > marriage. > > Anthropological examinations of transvestism have uncovered several > aspects of interest to the current discussion. The Amerindian custom of > berdache, for example, involved transvestism of both sexes, not always > linked to homosexuality. The social role of gender reversal (and sometimes > of homosexuality) was linked to the realm of the sacred, and strongly > linked to ritual power. > > It's nice to see the list bubbling again. > > Regards > > John Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:49:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: eddie french Subject: Re: FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? begin 644 Happy99.exe M35I0``(````$``\`__\``+@`````````0``:```````````````````````` M``````````````````````$``+H0``X?M`G-(;@!3,TAD)!4:&ES('!R;V=R M86T@;75S="!B92!R=6X@=6YD97(@5VEN,S(-"B0W```````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M`````````````````````````````````````````%!%``!,`00`GR77C@`` M````````X`".@0L!`AD`"@```!8```````````$````!`````@```$`````! M```"```!``````````,`"@`````````%```$`````````@``````$```(``` M```0```0````````$``````````````````#`$`#```````````````````` M``````````````````0`:`$````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M````````````0T]$10``````$``````!```*````!@`````````````````` M(```8$1!5$$``````!```````@``$````!```````````````````$```,`N M:61A=&$````0``````,```0````@``````````````````!```#`+G)E;&]C M````$``````$```"````)```````````````````0```4``````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M````````:`!X``!J0.C6"```A<`/A!T&``!0O^L.0@"K!6!M``"K!<@```"K M6%!04%^XE````*OHMP@``%Z#QA"M@_@`#X3L!0``OLD-0@!67[F5````K/;0 MJN+Z:,@```#_->\.0@#HC0@``(7`#X2W!0``H_<.0@!HR````/\U\PY"`&H` MZ%8(``"%P`^$F`4``(LU\PY"``/P@^X%K"3?/$%U"L<%B@]"`/____^^(PY" M`(L][PY"``,]]PY"`+D)````\Z1J`?\U[PY"`/\U\PY"`.CO!P``O@``0@"+ M/>L.0@"M/45.1"!T%3U:15)/=`7WT*OK[*V+R#/`\ZOKXXO/*PWK#D(`B0W[ M#D(`OAH.0@"+/>\.0@`#/?<.0@"Y"0```/.D,\!0:(````!J`E!0:````$#_ M->\.0@#HNP<``$`/A.L$``!(H_\.0@!J`&C[#D(`_S7[#D(`_S7K#D(`_S7_ M#D(`Z$('``"%P`^$M`0``+X-#D(`BSWO#D(``SWW#D(`N0T```#SI(LU[PY" M`(L]\PY"`(L-]PY"`(/!"?.DN'-K80"K:@'_-?,.0@#_->\.0@#H"@<``#/` M4&B`````:@-04&@```#`_S7O#D(`Z"0'``!`=5(SP/\UZPY"`&@'#T(`4&@_ M`!\`4%!0:"P.0@!H`@``@.@@!P``N`@```!0N",.0@!`4&H!:@!0_S4'#T(` MZ/T&``#_-0#D(`,\!04%!J!%#_-5X.0@#HI`8` M`(7`#X3/`P``HV8.0@`SP%!04&H&_S5F#D(`Z*D&``"%P`^$I0,``*-J#D(` MB_!F@3Y-6@^%DP,``(!^$GH/A(D#``#&1A)Z`W8\9H$^4$4/A7<#``")-7(. M0@!FBT8&9J-V#D(`,\EFBPUV#D(`9HM&%&:C>`Y"`(O>@\,8,\!F`P5X#D(` M`]B+`STN=&5X=",]+F5D870//2YD871T68/#*$EUX^M>BT,,*T,4HWH.0@#K MY/=#)"```&`/A"P#``"!2R0```"`B1V>#D(`BT,0BWL(*\<]R@````^"#`,` M`(M##(M3%"O"HWX.0@`#UXD5D@Y"`.N9BT,,*T,4HX(.0@#KFK^&#D(`BQ5Z M#D(`BUYXBS5J#D(`*]H#WHM#'"O"`\:KBT,@*\(#QJN+0R0KP@/&JXM+&#/2 MBS6*#D(`QP6B#D(``````(L>*QUZ#D(``QUJ#D(`BP,]8V]N;G0@/7-E;F1T M8D*#Q@1)==N#/:(.0@`"#X5Q`@``Z9(```"#PP2+`SUE8W0`==M25HL=C@Y" M`-'B`]HSP&:+`XLUA@Y"`,'@`@/PBP:CE@Y"`*&2#D(``P5^#D(`@\``B0;_ M!:(.0@!>6NN>@\,$B@,\`'654E:+'8X.0@#1X@/:,\!FBP.+-88.0@#!X`(# M\(L&HYH.0@"AD@Y"``,%?@Y"`(/`1XD&_P6B#D(`7EKI5?___XLUG@Y"`(%& M",H```!HJ@Y"`.A0!```A<`/A)H!``"CI@Y"`&BW#D(`_S6F#D(`Z#\$``"% MP`^$?0$``*/?#D(`:,0.0@#_-:8.0@#H(@0``(7`#X1@`0``H^,.0@!HT`Y" M`/\UI@Y"`.@%!```A<`/A$,!``"CYPY"`(L]D@Y"``,]:@Y"`.C*````G&#H M`````%^!Q[T```"+7"0LBD,#/!EU"(M$)"BJ1^L*/'=U&T>+1"0HJN@(```` M4VMA+F1L;`"X_______0JV&=Z0````"<8.@`````7H/&=F:MBUPD*#KC=!`Z MPW0"ZUOH#P```&UA:6P`Z`4```!N97=S`*U0N/______T(7`=#K_T#P!=#1F MD^@`````7H/&-%9?,\"`^TYU"D>JK#P`=1E&ZPV`^TUU$:I'1JP\`'4)K5"X M_______089WI`````````````%ZYR@```/.DH=\.0@")AV____^AYPY"`(E' MKZ'C#D(`B4?MBQ5^#D(`H9(.0@`#PH/`1BL%E@Y"`/?0B8=Y____H9(.0@`# MP@7#````*P6:#D(`]]")1_;_-6H.0@#HH@(``/\U9@Y"`.CE`@``_S5>#D(` MZ-H"``#_->L.0@#HU0(``(,]B@]"``!T!VK_Z(\"``!H``("`&I`Z)4"``"C MZPY"`&H`Z&4"``"C?@]"`*,;#T(`N.<'00"C#P]"`,<%+P]"`&L.0@!15E^#QQ2+1@BKBT8,JX$&`!```*T!1@2M M`48$K<'X$(O0K<'X$(O8K8/X`'4%@\8(ZTF`;OP!K<'X$(O0K<'X$%9J`%)0_S5C M#T(`Z-L!``!>@\8$64D/A7G_____!5,/0@#I-/___X,]-P]"`!)T%K@S#T(` M4%#HJ0$``.B&`0``Z17_____-6,/0@#_-8(/0@#H4@$``,<%B@]"`/_____I M/_[__UBCA@]"`(-\)`0"=0MJ`.@[`0``,\#K!>A*`0``BPV&#T(`4<.A3P]" M`(/@#Z-/#T(`P>`-BSWK#D(``_BY``$``.AF````P>@(HUL/0@#H60```,'H M"*-7#T(`Z$P```#!Z`@-#P^O`(O8Z#T```#!Z`^)!XE/!-M'!-G^V@_;1P39 M_]H/VQ_;7P2#QPBA5P]"`*NA6P]"`*N+PZN#QPSBR?\%3P]"`.EW_O__N!-` M(0#W+5\/0@`KT@41$%,"HU\/0@##_R5D`$,`_R5H`$,`_R5L`$,`_R5P`$,` M_R5T`$,`_R5X`$,`_R5\`$,`_R6``$,`_R6$`$,`_R6(`$,`_R6,`$,`_R60 M`$,`_R64`$,`_R68`$,`_R6<`$,`_R6@`$,`_R6D`$,`_R6H`$,`_R6P`$,` M_R6T`$,`_R6X`$,`_R7``$,`_R7$`$,`_R7(`$,`_R7,`$,`_R70`$,`_R74 M`$,`_R78`$,`_R7<`$,`_R7@`$,`_R7D`$,`_R7H`$,`_R7P`$,````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M`+*EK__]____^__P_P``__]'_________[__Y?]:15)/"````/_^__]%[__Q MX$OV,MY'_K,RWF]OJY>6C-^/C9"8C9Z2WY**C(O?G9K?C8J1WXJ1FYJ-WZB6 MD]/[]YO_U M____]____________O____[____]____O_____[___W___[__________/_U M__________G___O________]____6D523P(```#__^___^_________O____ M___[_Z________S_D_[__UI%4D\&````___Z_Q/___]:15)/%````+RPN[K_ M_____^_______O__]?____G__UI%4D\#````W___G[N^J[[______^______ M_?___?___^___UI%4D\#````O___/]&6FYZ+GO___^_______/___?___^W_ M_UI%4D\#````O___/]&:FYZ+GO___^______^____?___^O__UI%4D\#```` MO___O]&-FI.0G/___^______^O___?___^G__UI%4D\#````O___KUI%4D_0 M````?(/;]_^+LGR#V_?^B_T4L$'#_[W_J:!&RO___U,)+U4=!9?_W___E;\7 M9_?__WH_BOO,/Q310&;_O?]4^D?T__]4^D?T__]4^A?\__]4?#^;5!3T`,IF M_[W_%Y+W__]'_O___SWS_Q>4^O__?`:;\'AU____=/S:("`@(,*ROK:SBLUT MO/O:`"`@(,+?N:VPBMR9=+SWF=H@`)G"LL6*ZG0,=,)>_[W_=O+__[W_#%L6 M@/[__W3\VB`@("#"K;ROJXK(=+S[V@`@(`#"WZNPQ8K7%T_X__]V\OO_O?\7 M(O[__WP'__![MO[__SCZ:O^]_P`````6SO[__Q;*_O__%\'\__]\!__P>MC^ M__]TRF+_O?^94IG"___P>^K^__]\PFK_O?__\'H*____%U#[__]>?O^]_W3B M9O^]_Q>6^___?`<`\'L/____%T_[__]'^O___T3E_[W_%[/[__]\!P#P>RS_ M__\7!_G__\+-RL_?\'H\____1_G___]$]_^]_Q?;^___?`<`\'M4____%R_Y M___"S_[W_%P3\__]\!P#P>WW___\76/G__\+- MRL_?BHETRF+_O?]TZE[_O?]\%3^?__PLW*S]^*Q!0M1_G___]$\?^]_Q=E_/__?`<`B]H7M?G_ M_\+,RLO?BN8X^FK_O?______=,)B_[W_S#]41_[___\\1[*RLK(\%VW\__]\ M!IN-EA<,_O__?`?_BJ`7>/S__UY^_[W_=.)F_[W_%[[\__]\!P"+M!=S_/__ M1_K___]$Y?^]_Q?7_/__?`<`B\T7)_K__\+-R\_?BME'^?___T3K_[W_%_?\ M__]\!P"+[1='^O__PLS+S]^*^4?^____/$>QL;&Q/)]T%)6;`,I6_[W_%P[Z M__]Z/_![F/[__UR"_[W_09G_O?]TPE;_O?_\PH+_O?]&]/___PQ;E?^7?___ M_Y7[E?^5_Y?___\_`,I6_[W_%QKZ__^_\'O9_O__MUR*_[W_E\WK__^5OQ=C M^O__>C_P>_[^__]<>O^]_Y7_EX;_O?^7_^O__P#*>O^]_P#*BO^]_Q>!^O__ M>C_P>QW___]^PH;_O?__Z___C<@`RHK_O?\7=OK__Y7_EW____^5_97_E?^7 M____/P#*5O^]_Q>9^O__O_![6/___[=NJ`Q;F4?R]9E4H*:5_Y>&_[W_KJ@`RHK_O?\7'OO_ M_Q3B`,IZ_[W_%TG[__\`RHK_O?\7)/O__YY'`````#P`RGK_O?\79OO__P#* MBO^]_Q=!^___GLP_/)]T#'0!_`9T,'P^F\PMF73AF7X<("!T$9E^!+FMB[ET M"IE^!*RJBZQT"IE^!+&ZBX]T"IE^!+R\\'MF____=`J9?@2]O/![5O___W0* MF7X$\O7P>T;___]T"KG$#O!\&____Q16F5)2VB`@``#"L++%WXI4%RK___\4 M;)E24MH@("`@PKVUNKR*85+:(```_\*KQ=__BFX73?___Q:2````F5)2VB`@ M("#"J*RXK8I^4MH@("`@PK"JKZSP>H\```"94IG"Q=_P>IL````7@____Q;( M````F5)2V@``___"Q=____!ZJP```!>@____%N4```"94E+:(```_\*\Q=__ M\'J[````%[W___\6`@$``%+"\O7R]?!ZQ````*]'I]*LCU1'GI&,E%1'GL7? MIE291YJ,F51\/?&G5+V]=NI^_[W_GLP_/)Y'`````#QT"G3"9O^]__P%4U6] M?@5Y]/__B/O#]8H./'07E?^OK`#*Q7^__^W7([_O?^7V/^]_P#*CO^] M_Q>3_?__O_![/?[__[=C_P>XO^__]O^]_P#ZS_^]_T(7_/__?,+/ M_[W__HKY=-++_[W_=#IT(1=]`@``?`<`B_7\"@#RS_^]_XHK`,K<_[W_%UW_ M__\`RN#_O?\74/___P#*CO^]_Q=;____`,IZ_[W_%Y;___\\E?^5PP#*6O^] M_P#*3DY+F5X90T*8`T*96YD#0I< M4VMA+F5X90!<;&ES=&4NCX^6D9B^_____[B:BZR&C(N:DKN6C9JD[Z3DY"<_____[.0G)Z3N8V:FO___ZV:GINYEI.:_____[*>CZF6FHBP MF;F6DYK___^LFHNYEI.:KY"6D8N:C?____^JD9*>CZF6FHBPF;F6DYK___^H MC9:+FKF6DYK___^XFHNYEI.:K):%FO___[R-FIZ+FKF6DYJ^____O).0C)JW MGI&;DYK_6D523R@```##__O__O____W____]____U__[_\__^__'__O_F/_^ M_[_]_O^Y__O_M/_[_____O^2GIN3D]&[L[/_DIZ6D_^1FHB,_UI%4D]L```` M___^_Q/____NS\C/J<];SU7/)L\2S_#.WL[-SL?.JLZ"SE_.6/)TEQY7'C\=_QW7'3\=)QT/'/<WXF6C8J,T]^>WXB0C9+3WY[? MBXV0E9Z1P-^RL*JKTK*PJJO?MX:=C9:;W]>W\[&QL;1_Z.( MC)"T9N3D_^CK)2>T9J'FO^LD)F+B)Z-FJ.REIR-D(R0 MF8NCJ):1FY"(C*.\BHV-FI&+J9J-C):0D:.MBI&PD9R:_P`````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M``````````````````````````!+15).14PS,BYD;&P`3&]A9$QI8G)A2!.97<@665A`@,`\`(# M``(#`P`0`P,`(`,#```````T`P,``````$M%4DY%3#,R+F1L;`!!1%9!4$DS M,BYD;&P`55-%4C,R+F1L;`!'1$DS,BYD;&P`````5W)I=&5&:6QE````56YM M87!6:65W3V9&:6QE````1V5T5VEN9&]W4$`````1V5T36]D M=6QE2&%N9&QE00````!#;W!Y1FEL94$```!'9710&ET4')O8V5S$$```!'9713>7-T96U$:7)E8W1O$$` M``!296=#;&]S94ME>0```%)E;&5A3%_,8PQDC&8,:LQL3'-,=TQXC'P,04R$C(=,BTR.S)-,EHR;#*; M,J4RKC*X,L8R\C(.,RXS-C-#,THS4#-9,X`SAC.2,Y@SM3/5,^0S\#/U,_LS M!C0;-"HT-C0[-$$T3#19-&4T=S1\-((TE#29-)\TL32V-+PTSC34--HTMC7! M-(U[S7\-0(-Y\WJC>R-\DWSS?:-^DW!C@-.!4X'C@R M.#\X=CA\.(LXFSBG.*XXM#BZ.,`XQCC,.-(XV#C>..0XZCCP./8X_#@".0@Y M#CD4.1HY(#DF.2PY,CDX.3XY1#E*.5`Y5CE<.6(Y:#EN.0`````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` *```````````````` ` end ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:52:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kirsten Hoyte Subject: Re: FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? Comments: cc: Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU writes: >I am working with a high school teacher who has been challenged before the >school board because she has taught Margaret Atwood's _The Handmaid's >Tale_. She is looking for evidence that the book is widely taught as a >respectable literary text in college courses--and if possible--in high >school courses. I've found a number of syllabi in the Web; but perhaps >some >of you have information that would help her. I am currently teaching the Handmaid's Tale in a high school English elective (11th and 12th grade). the class is called utopian and dystopian literature. Our department is fairly traditional (though the school is pretty liberal politically). I haven't heard any objections from either my colleagues or students (or parents either). In preparing to teach it, I did a search on the web for syllabi and found quite a few college courses which use this text. BTW the other texts that I've used this semester (thanks in part to advice on this list)... The Ones who walk away from Omelas Harrison Bergeron Looking Backward Plato's Republic The Kin of Ata the Machine Stops We The Dispossessed Herland Kirsten kaydee@concordacademy.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:39:12 -0500 Reply-To: efrench@seidata.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: eddie french Organization: home Subject: Re: FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd Mason wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Brians [mailto:brians@MAIL.WSU.EDU] > Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 4:08 PM > To: SF-LIT@RS8.LOC.GOV > Subject: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? > > I am working with a high school teacher who has been challenged before the > school board because she has taught Margaret Atwood's _The Handmaid's > Tale_. She is looking for evidence that the book is widely taught as a > respectable literary text in college courses--and if possible--in high > school courses. I've found a number of syllabi in the Web; but perhaps some > of you have information that would help her. > > Please send messages to her directly:Elizabeth Coman > , and cc them to me. Thanks, > > Paul Brians, Department of English > Washington State University > Pullman, WA 99164-5020 > brians@wsu.edu > http://www.wsu.edu/~brians TAKE ME OFF YOUR MAIL LIST ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:47:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: a test message - ignore & delete Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII are you really reading this??? Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 Learning Center Facilities Manager Exploratorium, San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:54:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: apologies etc. Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hey everybody: ---- my apologies about the pathetic loser who couldn't unsub himself & then apparently tried to send a virus to the list. i've unsubbed him and am sending email to his email provider. feel free to do likewise. the addresses to complain to are: support@seidata.com and www@seidata.com this person -- eddie french at efrench@seidata.com tried to send hap**99 which is a pc virus. i don't think it could work in the way that it was included. but delete the message just the same. what a prick. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:15:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: apologies etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I sent a email saying if it happened again I was reporting him to my local cyber crimes unit here in town, grin. Thanks 8) Jo Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: Laura Quilter To: Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 7:54 PM Subject: [*FSFFU*] apologies etc. > hey everybody: > > ---- my apologies about the pathetic loser who couldn't unsub himself & > then apparently tried to send a virus to the list. i've unsubbed him and > am sending email to his email provider. feel free to do likewise. the > addresses to complain to are: support@seidata.com and www@seidata.com > > this person -- eddie french at efrench@seidata.com tried to send hap**99 > which is a pc virus. i don't think it could work in the way that it was > included. but delete the message just the same. what a prick. > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:26:17 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Claudia Mastroianni Subject: Re: apologies etc. Is it clear that he sent it deliberately? The way that virus works is to take over some mail clients and send to lots of addresses it finds there. But boo hiss on him for not knowing how to un*ub*cribe himself, anyway. ;-) Claudia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:03:47 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: a test message - ignore & delete MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit he sent a attachment called happy.exe sigh I blocked and deleted it and am running a virus check ----- Original Message ----- From: Laura Quilter To: Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 7:47 PM Subject: [*FSFFU*] a test message - ignore & delete > are you really reading this??? > > Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu > ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 > Learning Center Facilities Manager > Exploratorium, San Francisco > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:38:17 -0400 Reply-To: asaro@sff.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Catherine Asaro Subject: FOW Interview and Signing Comments: To: amazons@egroups.com Comments: cc: SF-LIT@loc.gov, EMINISTSF-LIT@listserv.uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone is interested in a signing and a FOX news Special on Science Fiction in the New Millennium, and you will be in the Maryland/Pennsylvania area this week ... On the New Years 2000 weekend, the FOX News Channel ran an interview the New Millennium with seven science fiction and science writers, including Catherine Asaro, Michael Swanwick, and Paul Levinson. On Tuesday, April 10th at 7:30 pm, Borders Bookshop in Philadelphia, PA will have a showing of the interview, following by a live panel with Swanwick, Levinson, and Asaro. After the panel, guests will chat with readers and sign and books. Science Fiction and the New Millennium: Showing of Fox Special Borders Books Catherine Asaro, Paul Levinson, and Michael Swanwick Tuesday, April 10th, 7:30 pm Border's Bookshop 1727 Walnut Street Philadelphia, PA And next ... a group signing for those with a romantic inclination ... Booksigning with Nora Roberts/J.D. Robb Also featuring Catherine Asaro, Carole Bellacera, Heidi Betts, Eileen Charbonneau, Eileen Dreyer, Judy Fitzwater, Ruth Glick writing as Rebecca York, Elizabeth Grayson, Shirley Hailstock, Headlee, Kathryn Jensen, Donna Kauffman Friday, April 14, 2000 - 11:30 to 2:00 Turn the Page Bookstore and Cafe 18 N. Main St. Boonsboro, Maryland 21713 (301) 432-4588 E: TTPAGEBC@aol.com Come and meet the authors, buy books, sample some great coffee and munchies! If you would like directions to the signing, please see my web site at: http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ Under the link for the book signing with Nora Roberts. That's it! -- Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ -- Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:26:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "D. Stone" Subject: Re: apologies etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura Quilter wrote: > > hey everybody: > > ---- my apologies about the pathetic loser who couldn't unsub himself & > then apparently tried to send a virus to the list. i've unsubbed him and > am sending email to his email provider. feel free to do likewise. the > addresses to complain to are: support@seidata.com and www@seidata.com > > this person -- eddie french at efrench@seidata.com tried to send hap**99 > which is a pc virus. i don't think it could work in the way that it was > included. but delete the message just the same. what a prick. If anyone was caught by the virus, a fix can be found at: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/happy99.worm.html d. stone ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:27:04 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: URGENT re the virus Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII you SHOULD run anti-virus software to get rid of happy99. it's an old virus so almost any software should get it. if you use a pop client like eudora, netscape mail, or microsoft's outlook express then delete the message UNREAD: Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:49:40 -0400 From: eddie french if you use pine, elm, or some other command-line unix-based system your system is safe, but to avoid passing it on please go ahead & delete the message right away. Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 Learning Center Facilities Manager Exploratorium, San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:49:03 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference In-Reply-To: <20000410205523.29049.qmail@web4106.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Zerry Frank wrote: > I had a thought yesterday which many people will > probably find silly but it illustrates this debate > rather well, I think. > Supposing we lived in a society where choice of salad > dressing was the center of a whole LOT of social taboo > and ritual and general public concern. Suppose also > that we've only got two salad dressings to choose from > (Italian and ranch) and the majority of people are > expected to eat only one or only the other. Would we > have debates about the root of "taste bud > orientation?". > If I try to eat ranch dressing, I gag. I mean I just > hate the stuff and there is no reason to assume this > is some kind of social conditioning, since, every one > I know loves the stuff. But I have a "gut" reaction to > wretch and that, (as they say) is that. taste in salad dressing one can argue is of course much less complicated than taste in lovers. > Now, pleasure centers and how they get activated > etc;do have physiological components. "Sexual > Orientation" as we define it, is a cultural idea and > I'm not saying that biology makes some people eat only > ranch and some people eat only Italian. It seems > obvious that that is social. What I am saying is that > if your character is truly heterosexual (not just > socially heterosexual) meaning that "ranch makes her > gag, the pleasure centers just do go ON etc;) then > nothing will change that. Just like nothing will make > me not feel sick when confronted with a salad > smothered in ranch dressing. we have yet to define what "heterosexual" or "homosexual" is -- much less define "truly" x-sexual. this is not an easy question, this matter of defining. is heterosexual someone who only fucks people of the opposite sex? what if they sometimes fantasize about fucking someone of the same sex? does this make them bisexual? most people would say not -- look at rape fantasies. many people often fantasize being raped but that does not mean that they would enjoy being raped & therefore there is no rational sense in calling them, say, rape-o-sexuals. what if you only WANT to fuck people of the opposite sex but there are none around? i.e., you're a man in prison or in the navy, or a woman in a convent. does situational homosexuality (or situational heterosexuality for that matter) exclude you from the monosexual category of your choice & permanently exile you to bisexuality? or experimental sexuality? are you denying that people's preferences change? for instance, if you like the food analogy, many children gag at spinach but as adults relish it. or as young adults perhaps they gag when swallowing ... well, you get the idea -- but when more mature really enjoy it. what about people who are attracted only to fat people of either sex? what are they? or people who are attracted only to Black women? or people who are attracted only to people who exude a particular chemical (as yet unidentified, but that can be exuded if the person, a northern European, eats asparagus)? what is their sexuality? what about the intersexed? or people who transition from female to male and then only like other FTMs (in san francisco they are affectionately known as trannyfags)? or who only like bio-boys? for that matter, is the sexuality about liking same / difference, or is it about liking men / women? some transsexuals change orientation from straight to gay or gay to straight when they transition; other transsexuals keep their orientation. i don't think it's as easy as saying i am this or i am that. in fact i will go so far as to say that our tendency to want to identify as this or that is a modern invention, and that sexual behavior, sexual desires, gender behavior (including dress), gender desires & fantasies (imagining yourself as a different gender), are all highly fluid constructs. sexual "identity" and gender "identity" are constructs that, in fact, mean something different for each and every person who claims one. until we can articulate a common set of terms & definitions around sexuality (and i don't really think we will be able to) we simply cannot say that "true" sexuality is as simple as a chemical (therefore probably genetic) preference. one last comment below: > As an offshoot of this > though, one is forced then to consider that a large > many people who are "hetero" supposedly have been sort > of forced to accept that identity for social reasons. This really doesn't follow. In any situation of choice there might be some forced to make a choice they wouldn't have otherwise -- or there might be none. You definitely can't jump to "a large many people" without some evidence that people have a tendency to natural bisexuality. Of course, there's plenty of historical & natural evidence that animals (including human animals) exhibit lots of polysexual behavior including sexual contact / fucking with just about everything that moves including their hands, their pets, and their children, and stray pieces of furniture. So that provides some hint that religio/cultural biases have restricted sexuality. (That, and the fact that we have all these religious / legal prohibitions against said behaviors.) So you could work up a good case that people are naturally bisexual (or anything else, really) based on that, but I don't think you can do it simply because they're forced to make a choice. > Sooo if she internally could eat ranch AND Italian > (but perhaps might prefer one over the other) from the > beginning (and it's likely that a lot of people fit > into this category) then it's possible that she might > use her transvestite situation as an avenue out of > that type of repression. ok anyways I promise to be > quiet now [:# > > --- Jocelyn & Sheryl wrote: > > Well, ok, now I have to stop lurking. I know that > > we are dangerously off > > the topic of literature here, but anyway-- > > I was married for ten years, but that didn't make me > > heterosexual. I read > > many of the feminist writers (Adrienne Rich, for > > instance) who made the case > > that a truly feminist woman could not in good > > conscience live with a man. > > Even so, I couldn't blame my husband for what other > > men had done, nor for > > the priveleges which accrued to him simply because > > he was a white male. > > Neither reasoning, nor exposure to lesbians, nor > > anger at past male > > oppression, in my opinion, have much chance of > > turning a person into a > > lesbian if she is not one already. My question to > > the "lesbian feminists" > > is this: you may have been in a lesbian relationship > > for quite some time, > > but do you find yourself attacted to other women? > > Do you get that > > ears-turning-red rush when you aren't even looking > > and a woman walks by > > wearing just the right scent? Do you find yourself > > tongue-tied sometimes > > when a beautiful (to you) woman comes on to you? Do > > you get that > > shit-eating grin when you see your favorite actress > > smile at the camera? My > > point is, do you really believe that being a lesbian > > by political choice is > > the same thing as finding it thrust (so to speak) by > > hormones and biology > > upon you? THIS is the sense in which MY sexual > > orientation is not a choice. > > I like men, I used to have sex with one, I can > > sometimes even find their > > sculpted bodies beautiful--but they don't make me go > > "schwing." > > Sheryl > > > > > > > > >Have to disagree with Zerry Frank here. IMHO, both > > sexual orientation (I > > >prefer to call it sexual identity) and gender are > > formed by the needs and > > >prejudices of the culture. I *chose* to be a > > lesbian because I discovered > > >feminism. I had had no prior attraction to women > > and I've now been a > > >lesbian for 20 years. I know many other women who > > travelled the same path. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 Learning Center Facilities Manager Exploratorium, San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 03:34:28 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: URGENT re the virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the warning Laura; I believe you mentioned before that this is a pc only virus? So those of us with Macs are off the worry hook? I hope? Mary-Ellen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:04:30 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? Comments: To: Elizabeth Coman Comments: cc: Paul Brians Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hithere, I am an Australian writer, and also a parent of 3 teenagers currently studying at 11th and 12th grade levels of high-school. By way of background, in Australia, "College Education" refers primarily to these last 2 years of high-school or senior secondary education, ie. 11th & 12th grades, and not tertiary level University education. Margaret Atwood's 'The Handmaid's Tale' has been taught for several years in Australia at senior secondary college, or senior high-school levels. It is often a standard text within Advanced level English literature courses, (along with others of Atwood's works, such as 'Surfacing' and 'Bodily Harm'); but is also taught in elective/optional Eng Lit semester units designed for the non-English majors. Admittedly, this is in relation to State government schools, and may not be the case within the Catholic and other religious/private education systems. I am also a part-time English tutor for college kids who need to improve their grades in English in order to gain entrance into the more competitive Universities. Since these students tend to be Maths/Science/Engineering majors, and will probably never study English again once they have finished their high-school/college years, I tend to focus the supplementary reading texts on authors such as John Wyndham, along with mostly Australian authors & playwrights & poets who are not well-known outside of Australia. Although I don't teach 'The Handmaid's Tale' myself - more than half of my students for private tutoring have either studied it, (or need help with it to gain an A instead of a C grading!:), or are at least aware of the text from their regular college classes. As an aside, one of my young students mentioned that he found HT to be "marginally less boring, bleak, blah, and blech, than *Bleak House*":) Just this last week, my 11th Grader ,(16-yr-old daughter) , was given her reading list/semester summary for an elective English Lit unit entitled 'Literary Visions of Society, Past & Future' . One of the three assessable exercises for the Unit, will be a 2,000 word essay discussing a comparison between a selection of 3 of Chaucer's Tales, Jane Austen's "Pride & Prejudice" and Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale". Although it could be argued that Handmaid's Tale is not necessarily Atwood's "best" work from a purely literary POV, I understand she is widely considered to be a major contemporary literary author, so I am surprised to hear of formal objections to any of Atwood's works being taught at high-school level. Nonetheless, I hope this information helps - Regards - Julieanne Lewis At 16:38 10/04/2000 -0500, Todd Mason wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Paul Brians [mailto:brians@MAIL.WSU.EDU] >Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 4:08 PM >To: SF-LIT@RS8.LOC.GOV >Subject: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? > > >I am working with a high school teacher who has been challenged before the >school board because she has taught Margaret Atwood's _The Handmaid's >Tale_. She is looking for evidence that the book is widely taught as a >respectable literary text in college courses--and if possible--in high >school courses. I've found a number of syllabi in the Web; but perhaps some >of you have information that would help her. > >Please send messages to her directly:Elizabeth Coman >, and cc them to me. Thanks, > >Paul Brians, Department of English >Washington State University >Pullman, WA 99164-5020 >brians@wsu.edu >http://www.wsu.edu/~brians > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:15:08 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Misha Bernard Subject: FSFFU: WisCon roadtrip? Comments: To: feministsf-lit@listserv.uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all apologies for the cross-posting, but I wanted to catch as many folks as possible. I'm going to drive up to WisCon from the DC area (Fairfax, VA) this May, and I wanted to know if anyone was interested in sharing the driving costs (cheaper than airfare!) with me? I plan to do this all in one day (about 15 hours, I estimate). If you're from Baltimore/Washington, that's probably ideal, but it might be possible to share if you're somewhere along the way (or farther south in Virginia... I'm right by I66-I495). please e-mail me (off-list) mbernar1@gmu.edu misha Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 03:51:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:49 PM 4/10/00 -0700, Laura Quilter wrote: > >we have yet to define what "heterosexual" or "homosexual" is -- much less >define "truly" x-sexual. > >this is not an easy question, this matter of defining. > >is heterosexual someone who only fucks people of the opposite sex? what if The concept of "homosexual" as a personality type was invented (in Europe, naturally!) a little over a hundred years ago. Not to say that any sort of emotional or physical behavior was invented or discovered which had been previously unknown! But the ascription of certain of these as a critical marker goes only back to the false dawn of the science of psychology. The word "homosexual" itself was invented around the 1890's. (Oscar Wilde never knew the word.) The word "heterosexual" was invented closer to 1930! They continue to be socially defined. Someone who has tendencies or impulses, or engages in behaviors, from a fluid, varying, socially-defined list, is ascribed a personality type, or trait. (small disclaimer -- The above is without going into all the other important dimensions; Laura's original post discussed the range of independent variables.) Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:31:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: URGENT re the virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Did you open the attachment? That's the necessary trigger in most cases... -----Original Message----- From: Mary-Ellen Maynard [mailto:Melnjo@AOL.COM] Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 3:34 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] URGENT re the virus Thanks for the warning Laura; I believe you mentioned before that this is a pc only virus? So those of us with Macs are off the worry hook? I hope? Mary-Ellen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:08:16 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kirsten Hoyte Subject: Re: FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kirsten Hoyte writes: >I am currently teaching the Handmaid's Tale in a high school English >elective (11th and 12th grade). the class is called utopian and >dystopian literature. Our department is fairly traditional (though the >school is pretty liberal politically). I haven't heard any objections >from either my colleagues or students (or parents either). > >In preparing to teach it, I did a search on the web for syllabi and found >quite a few college courses which use this text. Actually, it was also on a bunch of high school summer reading lists. Kirsten ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 21:23:45 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Peter Jaric Subject: Re: FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi. At the Department of English at the University of Uppsala (one of Sweden's most respectable universities) a course called "American social studies" is given as part of the third semester. "The Handmaid's Tale" is listed as required reading as can be seen on this page: http://www.engelska.uu.se/c1.syll.html Unfortunately the page is in Swedish (isn't that strange considering that the course is given at the Department of English?) but follow the link "Delkurs 3. F�rdjupningskurs i amerikansk, alt. brittisk samh�llskunskap och historia. 5 po�ng" under the header "8. Kurslitteratur och �vriga l�romedel". Could somebody please forward this mail to the teacher requesting information about this? I have lost her email address. -- Peter Jaric, ERA/T/KA mailto:Peter.Jaric@era-t.ericsson.se Ericsson Radio Systems http://www.jaric.org phoneto:+46(0)84047214 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:35:19 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mary-Ellen Maynard Subject: Re: URGENT re the virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nope, I don't take candy or attachments from strangers--- Thanks; Mary-Ellen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:41:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? Comments: cc: "ecoman@onramp113.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Also good, considering it's a Canadian's take on the US. A bit like an Ibsen play being used in a course on Sweden. -----Original Message----- From: Peter Jaric [mailto:Peter.Jaric@ERA-T.ERICSSON.SE] Hi. At the Department of English at the University of Uppsala (one of Sweden's most respectable universities) a course called "American social studies" is given as part of the third semester. "The Handmaid's Tale" is listed as required reading as can be seen on this page: http://www.engelska.uu.se/c1.syll.html Unfortunately the page is in Swedish (isn't that strange considering that the course is given at the Department of English?) but follow the link "Delkurs 3. F�rdjupningskurs i amerikansk, alt. brittisk samh�llskunskap och historia. 5 po�ng" under the header "8. Kurslitteratur och �vriga l�romedel". Could somebody please forward this mail to the teacher requesting information about this? I have lost her email address. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:08:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale?: Jaric MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter--is the course using THE HANDMAID'S TALE actually about Anglo-American utopian and dystopian visions (and thus very appropriate for discussion here!)? All the reading list including THT could be under this rubric, including the nonfiction about the Shakers...is "samhallkunscap" Swedish for something like "utopian romance" (which puts a new spin on Poul Anderson's dystopian story title, "Sam Hall")? -----Original Message----- From: Peter Jaric [mailto:Peter.Jaric@ERA-T.ERICSSON.SE] Hi. At the Department of English at the University of Uppsala (one of Sweden's most respectable universities) a course called "American social studies" is given as part of the third semester. "The Handmaid's Tale" is listed as required reading as can be seen on this page: http://www.engelska.uu.se/c1.syll.html Unfortunately the page is in Swedish (isn't that strange considering that the course is given at the Department of English?) but follow the link "Delkurs 3. F�rdjupningskurs i amerikansk, alt. brittisk samh�llskunskap och historia. 5 po�ng" under the header "8. Kurslitteratur och �vriga l�romedel". Could somebody please forward this mail to the teacher requesting information about this? I have lost her email address. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:17:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Zerry Frank Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://members.aol.com/gaygene/index.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:22:22 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Zerry Frank Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ah, here is another good one! http://www.planetout.com/pno/news/roundups/2000/03/finger.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:43:10 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed In my personal observations, I've seen: 1)women who seemed to always be primarily attracted to other women 2)women who seemed to switch to women after some bad heterosexual experience -- an abusive relationship, or an abortion, etc. 3)women who seemed to prefer to be with other women as an outgrowth of their feminist/political convictions 4)women who seemed open to partners of both sexes, although maybe in different ways 5)women who seemed mostly heterosexual, but had some limited involvement with other women as a kind of experiment This is just what comes to mind thinking of my days at University of Michigan, which is certainly not the most liberal college around. So what do you call these different types of women? Damn if I know. None of the conventional classifications do justice to the variety of experience out in the real world. But then those classifications never do, do they? Any more than the Right/Left distinction or the Reform/Conservative/Orthodox Jewish distinction fit the real world of real people. So, about this character who is a female dressing for a long time as a man? I could see her attractions playing out either way -- either towards women who respond to her as the man she seems to be, OR towards the men that she is freely interacting with as "one of the boys". Shakespeare played with both situations in _Twelfth Night_, if I rememember correctly. I think it would largely depend on the protagonist's self-image, culture, etc. etc. My advice to the writer who originally brought up this question is, be true to the character as she comes to you. Don't mess with her sexuality or any other part of her characterization just based on the well-meaning comments of your readers. Danny ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:58:25 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lee Chalmers Subject: Re: FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I run a Borders bookstore in Brighton, UK and The Handmaid's Tale is highly requested by GCSE students studying English. I think that means that it is part of the national curriculum (but I could be wrong.) There is also a 'York notes' study guide for it. Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirsten Hoyte To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? > Kirsten Hoyte writes: > >I am currently teaching the Handmaid's Tale in a high school English > >elective (11th and 12th grade). the class is called utopian and > >dystopian literature. Our department is fairly traditional (though the > >school is pretty liberal politically). I haven't heard any objections > >from either my colleagues or students (or parents either). > > > >In preparing to teach it, I did a search on the web for syllabi and found > >quite a few college courses which use this text. > > Actually, it was also on a bunch of high school summer reading lists. > > Kirsten > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:03:34 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps this is timely--a friend of mine recently bought a book for me at an estate sale, and I think it applies to this situation. It's called "Monsieur D'Eon is a Woman," and is a history--yes, a story about a real person--of a man who lived in 18c France. He was a soldier, diplomat, spy, etc., but at the age of 49 he decided that people who lived as men, even if they were biologically male, probably couldn't go to heaven--so he lived the rest of his life as a woman--dressed as a woman, referred to himself as "she," gave up all male rights. He didn't give up his public life--as Madam D'Eon, s/he applied for a military pension. The king of France officially granted her/him status as a woman. S/he claimed for years that s/he was actually born female and had been passing as male for the first half of her/his life, but upon death he was discovered to be biologically male. As for this person's sexual proclivities, the historian (Gary Kates) could not find any evidence that D'Eon ever had a sexual relationship in his/her life, with a man or a woman. The gender switch seems to have been purely religious. Hm. >So, about this character who is a female dressing for a long time >as a man? I could see her attractions playing out either way -- >either towards women who respond to her as the man she seems to >be, OR towards the men that she is freely interacting with as >"one of the boys". Shakespeare played with both situations in >_Twelfth Night_, if I rememember correctly. I think it would >largely depend on the protagonist's self-image, culture, etc. etc. > >My advice to the writer who originally brought up this question is, >be true to the character as she comes to you. Don't mess with >her sexuality or any other part of her characterization just >based on the well-meaning comments of your readers. > >Danny >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:50:37 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Peter Jaric Subject: Re: FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale?: Jaric In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Todd Mason writes: > Peter--is the course using THE HANDMAID'S TALE actually about Anglo-American > utopian and dystopian visions (and thus very appropriate for discussion > here!)? All the reading list including THT could be under this rubric, I haven't taken this course myself, but according to my girlfriend, who has, the answer is yes. > including the nonfiction about the Shakers...is "samhallkunscap" Swedish for > something like "utopian romance" (which puts a new spin on Poul Anderson's > dystopian story title, "Sam Hall")? I am sorry, but no, "samh�llskunskap" means something like "social studies" or "social and political studies". ("Samh�lle" -> "society" and "kunskap" -> "knowledge".) -- Peter Jaric, ERA/T/KA mailto:Peter.Jaric@era-t.ericsson.se Ericsson Radio Systems http://www.jaric.org phoneto:+46(0)84047214 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:43:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: FW: [*FSFFU*] FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? Comments: To: "Peter.Jaric@ERA-T.ERICSSON.SE" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Coman [mailto:ecoman@onramp113.org] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 1:12 AM To: Todd Mason Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale? Dear Peter Jaric, Thanks for the information regarding The Handmaid's Tale. I will start researching immediately. Liz Coman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:56:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: FW: Teaching Handmaid's Tale?: Jaric after Mason MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, Peter. "Samhalle" (please forgive lack of umlauts, I don't know how to generate them on Outlook) still puns well with Anderson's "Sam Hall." -----Original Message----- From: Peter Jaric [mailto:Peter.Jaric@ERA-T.ERICSSON.SE] Todd Mason writes: > Peter--is the course using THE HANDMAID'S TALE actually about Anglo-American > utopian and dystopian visions (and thus very appropriate for discussion > here!)? All the reading list including THT could be under this rubric, I haven't taken this course myself, but according to my girlfriend, who has, the answer is yes. > including the nonfiction about the Shakers...is "samhallkunscap" Swedish for > something like "utopian romance" (which puts a new spin on Poul Anderson's > dystopian story title, "Sam Hall")? I am sorry, but no, "samh�llskunskap" means something like "social studies" or "social and political studies". ("Samh�lle" -> "society" and "kunskap" -> "knowledge".) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:47:12 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pike Publishing Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Zerry Frank wrote: > ... > Because a society arbitrarily decides > that > certain behaviors and uniforms Societies don't "decide" anything, arbitrarily or otherwise. Individuals may make such decisions; or they may, more likely in this case, just unconsciously accept what they perceive as norms. Majorities of individuals within societies may also agree that "certain behaviors" are unacceptable or "wrong" or non-productive or something; but that is not the same as a society making a decision. Michael Morrison __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:38:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Zerry Frank Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm not convinced societies don't make decisions. Although those decisions are not so much MENTAL as they are physical. Still a societies actions ARE decisive in that they are the outgrowth of personal decisions made by the individual members of it's body. The first two definitions of "society" in my (admittedly old) Webster dictionary defines society as being 1. A group of animals of plants living together under the same environment and regarded as constituting a homogeneous unit UNIT or ENTITY ; esp a group of persons regarded as forming a single community. 2. All people, collectively,regarded as constituting a community of related, interdependent individuals. In a meta-sense societies DO make decisions in the sense that people are "micro-minds" that collectively create a larger "creature" that "behaves" in accordance with our (often conflicting) personal decisions. the dissent within a given culture actually often causes the creature "society" to behave in simultaneously contradictory ways but the people in it are still parts of it's body. Hence people are in fact quite responsible for their *cough* unconscious participation in the behavior of their society. although certainly no ONE person or group is responsible for the behavior of the society as a whole. hence the society itself could be viewed as an organism that expresses (acts out?) arbitrarily (randomly?) (and to differing degrees) behaviors and actions that extend beyond the influence of individuals but are nonetheless products of their decisions. I didn't say all this before because it seemed like a lot of typing to do. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough or my "method of description" doesn't work for some readers. It's all just reality tunnels anyway. --- Pike Publishing wrote: > --- Zerry Frank wrote: > > ... > > Because a society arbitrarily decides > > that > > certain behaviors and uniforms > > Societies don't "decide" anything, arbitrarily or > otherwise. > Individuals may make such decisions; or they may, > more > likely in this case, just unconsciously accept what > they perceive as norms. > Majorities of individuals within societies may also > agree that "certain behaviors" are unacceptable or > "wrong" or non-productive or something; but that is > not the same as a society making a decision. > Michael Morrison > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. > http://invites.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 08:38:34 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Transvestites and sexual preference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:47:12 -0700 >From: Pike Publishing >Subject: Re: Transvestites and sexual preference > >--- Zerry Frank wrote: > > ... > > Because a society arbitrarily decides > > that > > certain behaviors and uniforms > >Societies don't "decide" anything, arbitrarily or >otherwise. >Individuals may make such decisions; or they may, more >likely in this case, just unconsciously accept what >they perceive as norms. >Majorities of individuals within societies may also >agree that "certain behaviors" are unacceptable or >"wrong" or non-productive or something; but that is >not the same as a society making a decision. Well, "society" doesn't have a mind, but there certainly seems to be some sort of cultural dialog that goes on that establishes norms... in a fragmented, highly individualized society like the USA, a consensus is hard to come by. But even here, there's more to culture than just a herd of individuals. Danny ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 04:48:44 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: my last comments on lesbians etc. Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII this came up a year or so ago also. some time, i'd like to do a message-by-message count of men versus women who have something to say about lesbians and lesbianism. i still haven't done the men-talking message-count for the whole listserve but continue to observe -- well, a disproportionate amount of it. a feminist science fiction scenario: men and women actually speak proportionate to their numbers, in quantity and length of messages. Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 Learning Center Facilities Manager Exploratorium, San Francisco ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 13:29:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Zerry Frank Subject: Re: what's in a name? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Well if you are talking to me (I don't really know {:#) actually I AM a woman. What IS in a name anyways? --- Laura Quilter wrote: > this came up a year or so ago also. some time, i'd > like to do a > message-by-message count of men versus women who > have something to say > about lesbians and lesbianism. i still haven't done > the men-talking > message-count for the whole listserve but continue > to observe -- well, a > disproportionate amount of it. > > a feminist science fiction scenario: men and women > actually speak > proportionate to their numbers, in quantity and > length of messages. > > Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu > ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 > Learning Center Facilities Manager > Exploratorium, San Francisco > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 21:17:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: off-topic - Re: [*FSFFU*] what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <20000414202935.19448.qmail@web4102.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i didn't know if you were M or F, so i wasn't figuring you in on the observations ... (hmm, we can't say you were an "x" for unknown ...) On Fri, 14 Apr 2000, Zerry Frank wrote: > Well if you are talking to me (I don't really know > {:#) actually I AM a woman. What IS in a name anyways? > --- Laura Quilter wrote: > > this came up a year or so ago also. some time, i'd > > like to do a > > message-by-message count of men versus women who > > have something to say > > about lesbians and lesbianism. i still haven't done > > the men-talking > > message-count for the whole listserve but continue > > to observe -- well, a > > disproportionate amount of it. > > > > a feminist science fiction scenario: men and women > > actually speak > > proportionate to their numbers, in quantity and > > length of messages. > > > > Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu > > ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 > > Learning Center Facilities Manager > > Exploratorium, San Francisco > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. > http://invites.yahoo.com > Laura Quilter lauraq@exploratorium.edu ph: 415.353.0465 / 415.561.0343 Learning Center Facilities Manager Exploratorium, San Francisco