From LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu Fri Jan 26 13:40:22 2001 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:58:56 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0008D" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:37:08 +1000 Reply-To: beth@dreamstone.com.au Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bethany Leditschke Subject: Re: Hello In-Reply-To: <000822003121HS.00480@weba4.iname.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I discovered and Earthsea short story in a collection of short stories set in well known worlds ..anyone help with its title I cannot find it on my shelves at present probably loaned to somone Beth Bethany Leditschke Dreamstone a wonderful world of Science Fiction, Fantasy and Space- art prints, art books and resin sculptures go to www.dreamstone.com.au -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Lydia Lynsdaughter Sent: Tuesday, 22 August 2000 2:31 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Hello Once a year, in the dead of winter, I allow myself the time to curl up and just re-read the Earthsea Trilogy (there are four of them) from beginning to end! What a pleasure! For those interested, in order, they are: The Wizard of Earthsea The Tombs of Atuan The Farthest Shore Tehanu The Farthest Shore is my least favorite, too much male adventuring, but still readable. The others are gems! Lydia ------------------------------------------------------ Get the Latest News at CNN Interactive: http://CNN.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 23:32:19 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ron Avitzur Subject: Re: Hello :) In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000821221211.00abf570@pop.starwhores.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hello all, On the topic of Le Guin, I highly recommend her nonfiction collections. _Dancing at the Edge of the World: Thoughts on Words, Women, Places_ is a delightful collection of essays on feminism, social responsibility, literature, writing, and travel. _The Language of the Night_ has a rare sort of literary self-criticism giving an insight into the author's world. Of her fiction, my favorite earlier works are her short stories in _The Wind's Twelve Quarters_ which is a more traditional SF in the sociological vein. _Very Far Away from Anywhere Else_ is a sweet coming of age story I stumbled across in my junior high library ages ago, not SF at all. Here are links to some short bits I liked enough to quote: from _Four Ways to Forgiveness_ , A Left-Handed Commencement Address Le Guin was on PBS interviewed by Bill Moyer a couple nights ago when the movie _The Lathe of Heaven_ was rebroadcast for the first time after twenty (?) or so years in limbo. Yes, I'm a huge fan. I take great pleasure in Le Guin's facility with words. Sometimes reading her, I can't help but read aloud to appreciate the sound of the words. btw, I'm new here, too. I joined a few months ago but it's been a quiet summer. It's nice to see more activity in the list. Best regards, Ron -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 23:43:06 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ron Avitzur Subject: Re: Hello Comments: To: beth@dreamstone.com.au In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I discovered and Earthsea short story in a collection of short stories set >in well known worlds ..anyone help with its title I cannot find it on my >shelves at present probably loaned to somone Hello, There's a couple Earthsea short stories in _The Wind's Twelve Quarters_: "The Word of Unbinding" and "The Rule of Names". Two of my favorites! Ron -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 03:30:00 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lydia Lynsdaughter Subject: Don't You Hate It When ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last summer I was reading a fantasy novel, the main storyline was of a group of modern day college students who get lured into an alternate universe where they are supposed to do something to save a kingdom or something like that. I can't remember the title or author, maybe someone can help me out here? Anyway, I was enjoying the novel until near the end where one of the young women is kidnapped and subjected to the most disgusting, diseased, violent rape! And it went on for page after page! Needless to say, I threw the book across the room and swore I'd never read any more of that series! I believe the author was a man (I remember looking at the cover to see.) Rape happens, okay. But to glorify it that way and drag it out and juicify it? I wanted to throw up! I still do! Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Lydia ------------------------------------------------------ Get the Latest News at CNN Interactive: http://CNN.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 09:49:36 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Peter Jaric Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not sure if this is the right one (long time since I read it) but can it be The Summer Tree by Guy Gavriel Kay (or one of the other two books in the same trilogy)? -- Peter Jaric mailto:peter@jaric.org http://www.jaric.org > Needless to say, I threw the book across the room > and swore I'd never read any more of that series! > I believe the author was a man (I remember > looking at the cover to see.) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 04:10:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julia Lyall Subject: Fearless Women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks to all who flooded me with no less than 14 likely prospects to read up on. I remember Usrula leGuin's Earthsea trilogy and how I loved her lyrical style. The 'Left Hand of Darkness' confused me rather than enlightened me, but then again, I was only in my teens at the time. I think I've got a few C H Cherryh, Samuel Delaney and Joan Vinge somewhere. I'll have to dig them out and re-read them with a fresh perspective. I have bought an interesting book of folklore and fairy tales that portray women who take an active control of their lives (and not necessarily in the evil role). It's called "Fearless Women". I'm going to get a copy and give it to my niece when she's a little older (she's just turned 4). When I was first starting reading, I couldn't find very many strong feminine role models who weren't cast in the wicked stepmother or evil witch mould. Most of the "good" girls seem to be the ones who passively waited to be rescued (invariably by a man). It may be partly the reason why half the girls in my class at 16 (this was about 20 years ago), left to get engaged and were mothers by the time they were 18. I still wonder how they would have fared if they had decided to explore their own potentials, instead of pursuing the traditional role. ------------------------------- Beam to http://www.StarTrek.com The official site of the Star Trek universe -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 04:19:07 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lydia Lynsdaughter Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, that's it. I remember the picture of the tree on the cover ... >I'm not sure if this is the right one (long time since >I read it) but can it >be The Summer Tree by Guy Gavriel Kay (or one of the >other two books in the same trilogy)? > >-- >Peter Jaric ------------------------------------------------------ Get the Latest News at CNN Interactive: http://CNN.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 04:34:21 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julia Lyall Subject: Tabloid props MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Lydia that the subject of rape be it fact or fiction disturbs me. It's a regrettable fact that some writers seem to feel gratuitious sex and violence are required to 'spice' up their storyline, so as to create a wider appeal for their work. I guess monetary greed sometimes triumphs over better sense. Personally, I feel that such an event should be sparingly used in any work and perhaps only briefly , after all the imagination is a better graphic painter than any written word. It should also be for a reason, eg it shows the cruelty in the societal setting or the villian of the piece, it spurs the survivor to revenge, to take charge of her destiny, or be the catalyst of a critical point in the storyline. It would be nice if such books came with warning labels on the cover, so that we can choose to avoid them! ------------------------------- Beam to http://www.StarTrek.com The official site of the Star Trek universe -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 04:16:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Hello :) In-Reply-To: <200008220511.AAA70298@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kate Dall wrote: > Since I'm in a mood for starting arguments this morning, > > Cristen wrote: > >I'm ashamed to admit I really disliked Ursula LeGuin though. So > >much so that I can't even remember the name of the book. I want to > >say it was "Dark Side of the Moon" but I know that's a Pink Floyd > >album. ;) > > Was it by any chance "The Left Hand of Darkness"? Because if it was, I > can't stand it either. An extraordinarily painful book which for some > unknown reason keeps cropping up on those classics of feminist SF > course lists. I only made it to the end because its reputation > convinced me it must get better. It didn't. Why on earth are > everlasting treks through icy wastelands considered interesting and/or > feminist? Doris Lessing gives it a go in one of her _Shikasta_ books > and it's just as awful there. And all those dreadful Winter planets. > What do all you Le Guin et al fans see in this crap? Wow, opinions definitely differ. I *loved* Left Hand of Darkness and honestly can't stand either The Handmaid's Tale or any of Octavia Butler's novels (I find Butler to be more of an axe-grinder than a storyteller). The key to LeGuin's TLHoD is loving lavish descriptions of cultures and examining the role of an outsider in such a culture. LeGuin's father was an anthropologist and this influence shows in her novels. Having an MA in anthro I love this level of rich detail. OTOH, if you don't most of her longer works aren't for you. It's somewhat dated now, but so is almost any piece of 60s or early 70s feminist SF. Can anyone thing of any exceptions? -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 23:19:14 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Tabloid props In-Reply-To: <00082204342164.11100@weba4.iname.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:34 22/08/2000 -0400, Julia Lyall wrote: >I agree with Lydia that the subject of rape be it fact or fiction disturbs me. It's a regrettable fact that some writers seem to feel gratuitious sex and violence are required to 'spice' up their storyline, so as to create a wider appeal for their work. I guess monetary greed sometimes triumphs over better sense. > >Personally, I feel that such an event should be sparingly used in any work and perhaps only briefly , after all the imagination is a better graphic painter than any written word. It should also be for a reason, eg it shows the cruelty in the societal setting or the villian of the piece, it spurs the survivor to revenge, to take charge of her destiny, or be the catalyst of a critical point in the storyline. I also agree - I remember a very popular series of novels from many years ago, about some guy with leprosy who kept flipping over into a fantasy world for a jaunt in an epic heroic saga ...one of the books began with a rape scene and I have refused to read anything by that author ever since. Its been so successful, I've forgotten his name and the names of the books in that series. Though they were enormously popular at the time, and are common stock in 2nd-hand bookshops. On the other hand, there is one book I have never forgotten which began with an horrific rape scene in the first few pages. As it turns out, this scene is integral to the entire story. The main woman character is walking home one afternoon, when she is approached by a guy looking for help with a flat, he abducts her, rapes & beats her almost to death, however this entire scene is described from the victim's point-of-view. Although extremely unpleasant, in graphic detail, it is very well written and conveys the full horror quite vividly. The last thing the woman victim feels/sees is her rapist pouring petrol over her and lighting a match.... She wakes immediately, and almost dies again from shock, finding herself trapped in a completely different body, her rapists' body - and surrounded by people walking away, who we find out are shape-changers....they have magic, they can change their human shape - but few of them can control the shape-changing magic. Apparently, they are forced to change shape if they are within one day's walking distance of any murder or violent death. As they try to live reclusively in the hills of California, near SF, this "forced" shape-changing happens a lot:) Unfortunately, they are also dying out as shape-changing children cannot survive a shape-change until they are over a year old. Mothers with infants are forced to move far away from any human habitation until the child is old enough to survive the changes. We later find as the story unfolds, that these shape-changing, but otherwise normal humans, do not ever change gender when they change bodies. One of the few powerful shape-changers who can influence the blood magic, was experimenting magically at the site of the initial rape/murder scene, resulting in the victim to not only change bodies, but changing her gender, to that of the last person the victim saw at the moment of her "death", (ie. the rapist) Thus begins a very bizarre magic fantasy/murder mystery (where the victim has to solve her own murder - searching for the guy who "murdered" her, (mostly to get revenge, and she does eventually) - all while imprisoned in a carbon copy of his body, with the cops after her/him as well. As well, she desperately wants to be changed back, so also searches far & wide for a shape-changer who has magic powerful enough to reverse what has happened to her. The book is "Afterimage" by Kristine Kathryn Rusch in collaboration, a very disturbing novel, and although not feminist per se, it sure does have some interesting twists on gender. Cheers - Julieanne:) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:49:22 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cristen Subject: Re: Tabloid props In-Reply-To: <00082204342164.11100@weba4.iname.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I agree with Lydia that the subject of rape be it fact or fiction disturbs >me. It's a regrettable fact that some writers seem to feel gratuitious sex >and violence are required to 'spice' up their storyline, so as to create a >wider appeal for their work. I guess monetary greed sometimes triumphs >over better sense. I was, and still am horrified by the movie version of The Handmaid's Tale. In the novel, Atwood kind of distances the reader from the ongoings between the Commander and Offred. And in that way I never got the feeling it was "all-out rape" for lack of a better term. But watching the movie... it was all I could do not to get up and turn it off, which I almost did several times. It was like sitting there watching someone be raped. I was really just horrified. I remember laying there in bed that night, unable to sleep, clutching my boyfriend and shivering. Cristen ------------------------------------------- Cristen Curley cristen@starwhores.org dangerkitty.com - not a porn site, but the next best thing "Kissing you for the first time on a date is like eating unlabeled candy." - Lewin A.R.W. Edwards "Smelling of October and rust, smelling of October and rust... Churches purple burning and dust. She goes in, she goes in. I wanna be where she goes in." Lame, "Brynn" ____________________________ Free Email/SMTP/POP, http://www.bn3.com, Hosting yourname@yoursite.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 09:49:28 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chuck Munson Subject: Re: Believable Role Models Comments: To: kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM 08/21/00 07:47PM >>> It's a couple of years since I've been on this list [due to lack of internet access rather than interest], and it's good to be back. But where have all the arguments gone? I remember this list as a site of wide-ranging debates and strong opinions expressed in a friendly environment. So I reckon it's time to start a fight. I'll start by picking on Lyle, cause I know he'll forgive me if I buy him enough tequila. This list kind of died out when a bunch of people left to start a moderated list (which I never joined). As a staunch loyalist to listmistress Laura, I've stuck around. I read very little fiction these days--the result of being an online content provider--but I did enjoy reading Neal Stephenson's *Crytponomicon* earlier this summer. Chuck0 Chuck Munson AAAS -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 07:59:30 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Tabloid props In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000821231914.009d7560@pop.ozemail.com.au> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 8/21/00 7:19 AM, Julieanne at jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU wrote: > I also agree - I remember a very popular series of novels from many years > ago, about some guy with leprosy who kept flipping over into a fantasy > world for a jaunt in an epic heroic saga ...one of the books began with a > rape scene and I have refused to read anything by that author ever since. > Its been so successful, I've forgotten his name and the names of the books > in that series. Though they were enormously popular at the time, and are > common stock in 2nd-hand bookshops. Stephen R. Donaldson's Thomas Covenant trilogy. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 09:07:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Roxanne Korpal Subject: Re: Fearless Women In-Reply-To: <0008220410044M.12452@weba4.iname.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have always much liked Lessa, of McCaffrey's DragonFlight. She was also quite interesting in the DragonQuest, The White Dragon, and the later book All the Weyrs of Pern. I think she is an excellent example of growth and change in someone's life. And the elements of time and manipulation in DragonFlight make it all the more interesting and lead right into another favorite subject of mine. =) I shall definitely look for the book "Fearless Women". Thanks for the suggestion! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 09:16:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Roxanne Korpal Subject: Re: Tabloid props In-Reply-To: <00082204342164.11100@weba4.iname.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Beautiful idea!! I am an avid gamer and its been a bit disturbing that video games have been getting such a bad rap recently when it comes to violence and gore. If television, games and other forms of entertainment will be given labels, all forms of entertainment should receive it. Time to compile a list to be given warning labels I guess. Books, music, web pages, newspapers (ooh this gets complicated), plays, movies, television, sporting events.. I'm sure there's more. Thanks for the idea! I'll spend a few minutes later ranting on my favorite message board with this theme. =) Roxy http://www.its.ilstu.edu/rmkorpa On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Julia Lyall wrote: > It would be nice if such books came with warning labels on the cover, so that we can choose to avoid them! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 09:37:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: Believable Role Models In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >This list kind of died out when a bunch of people left to start a >moderated list (which I never joined). As a staunch loyalist to >listmistress Laura, I've stuck around. The semi-moderated list is also run by listmistress Laura (and myself as emergency listowner) - see http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/ for more information. ----- "Eating kittens is just plain wrong!" --The Tick Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ chris@bsinc.net AIM:ChrisShaff -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:02:26 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Neville Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed So all this talk of role-models and graphic rape scenes in books had me thinking. Are their any science fiction/fantasy books that portray regular, reasonably healthy sexual/ intimate relationships? Ones that are not based on rape or clearly based on a 14 year old boy's sexual fantasies, or straight out of a fairy tale complete with the happily ever after? I tried to come up with a book that has such a relationship but drew a blank. -Rebecca ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:13:24 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: couple of new books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the mode of NOT ONE DAMSEL IN DISTRESS from Jane Yolen earlier this year comes THE SERPENT SLAYER collected by Katrin Tchana. Fairy and folk tales from around the world about strong, clever, triumphant women. And Trina Schart Hyman, whose work I've long adored, provided the beautiful illustrations. In the coming soon category, an interesting counterpart to KISSING THE WITCH. Francesca Lia Block has retold fairy tales in THE ROSE AND THE BEAST. Beautiful stuff. Her new erotic collection from Circlet, NYMPH, also just hit the shelves. Pax, Maryelizabeth -- --- Maryelizabeth Hart Publicity Manager ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:30:36 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Reitz Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rebecca wrote: So all this talk of role-models and graphic rape scenes in books had me thinking. Are their any science fiction/fantasy books that portray regular, reasonably healthy sexual/ intimate relationships? Ones that are not based on rape or clearly based on a 14 year old boy's sexual fantasies, or straight out of a fairy tale complete with the happily ever after? I tried to come up with a book that has such a relationship but drew a blank. My reply: Hey, Rebecca, I'm a Rebecca too! For a healthy, loving, relationship between a man and a woman check out Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed". The hero, Shevek, has a good thing going with his partner (forgot her name). They are the 7th generation of anarchists who have settled on the moon. Yes, I am one of those devoted Le Guin fans. I love the way she creates entire worlds and the humans in them. On another note: for those who like the "Fearless Women" books: I have gotten my 7 year old daughter the entire series of GIRLS TO THE RESCUE, edited by Bruce Lansky. Clever, courageous resourceful girls having funny and exciting adventures. - REBECCA -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:34:54 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debbie Notkin Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:02 PM 8/22/00 +0000, Rebecca Neville wrote: >So all this talk of role-models and graphic rape scenes in books had me >thinking. Are their any science fiction/fantasy books that portray regular, >reasonably healthy sexual/ intimate relationships? Ones that are not based >on rape or clearly based on a 14 year old boy's sexual fantasies, or >straight out of a fairy tale complete with the happily ever after? I tried >to come up with a book that has such a relationship but drew a blank. There are dozens if not hundreds: Elizabeth Lynn's Tornor trilogy (now back in print) comes immediately to mind. How about the relationship of Miles and Ekaterin in the late Bujold books (or for that matter, even Miles and Sergeant Taura, or Miles and Elli Quinn)? Vonda McIntyre focuses on just such relationships in almost all of her books, particularly the Starfarers trilogy and DREAMSNAKE. Members of this list, such as Laura Mixon-Gould and Phoebe Reeves have exemplars in their work as well. Examples by men: well, most work by John Varley (or at least where there are nasty sexual relationships it's clear that he understands the distinction). Nadia and Arkady in the Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy (until he dies)- -lots of other examples there as well. Joan Vinge's "Tin Soldier." And so many more--they're just drowned out by the counterexamples. -- Debbie Notkin kith@slip.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:41:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tracy A Mitchell/Raleigh/Contr/IBM Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Rebecca commented: >> So all this talk of role-models and graphic rape scenes in books had me >> thinking. Are their any science fiction/fantasy books that portray regular, >> reasonably healthy sexual/ intimate relationships? Ones that are not based >> on rape or clearly based on a 14 year old boy's sexual fantasies, or >> straight out of a fairy tale complete with the happily ever after? I tried >> to come up with a book that has such a relationship but drew a blank. There are several short stories in "Bending the Landscape: Science Fiction" that would qualify. Some of my favorites are 'Time Gypsies', 'On Vacation' and 'Silent Passion'. There are other science fiction novels which I started to list here until I realized that they had rape scenes in them: "China Mountain Zhang" by Maureen McHugh and "Halfway Human" by Carolyn Ives Gilman. "Half Human" particularly bothered me. I thought the abuse of the main character was unnecessarily graphic and added little to the readers understanding of that character. Any thoughts from others who have read it? Tracy Rebecca Neville @LISTSERV.UIC.EDU> on 08/22/2000 11:02:26 AM Please respond to "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sent by: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Don't You Hate It When ... So all this talk of role-models and graphic rape scenes in books had me thinking. Are their any science fiction/fantasy books that portray regular, reasonably healthy sexual/ intimate relationships? Ones that are not based on rape or clearly based on a 14 year old boy's sexual fantasies, or straight out of a fairy tale complete with the happily ever after? I tried to come up with a book that has such a relationship but drew a blank. -Rebecca ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:49:05 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dianne Kraft <103234.3341@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: good sex in sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi everyone, couldn't resist delurking to talk about reasonable sexual relationships in sf. Catherine Asaro's books have some, and are also pretty strong in feminist themes and characters (several of her cultures are matriarchal, and her protagonists are very strong, independent women, for the most part). I'm reading a delightful book right now called "In the Garden of Iden" by Kage Baker which has some nice sex, and involves time travel, immortality, cyborgs and the English Renaissance -- what a combo, eh! Is it a coincidence that most of the sf I can think of with good sex in them has been written by women? Is that true, or a function of my selective (and imperfect) memory? Dianne -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:31:24 -0600 Reply-To: rudileon@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Healthy sexual relationships In-Reply-To: <13.9ce714e.26d3f69c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Oh my, Oh my, Oh My! Shevek as paragon? No nO No NO! vehement shudder! He splooges all over that woman who takes him on as a friend, because he can't see her as just that and feels that he has some right to sexualize her! Oh, when I taught this book, the students were ready to rip the pages out! And I agree with them. And that's not even looking at one of my pet peeves: authors set up a world where non-monogamy is an acceptable norm, whether its an option or the only norm, and then Our Hero(ine) establishes a healthy (in *our* universe) monogamous relationship, thereby obviating the challenge of creating likable characters who might be perceived as promiscuous -- a *bad* thing, even though the book at some level is about how it *isn't* a bad thing! Enter Shevek, who establishes a monogamous relationship, outside of the norm, has his child stay with the monogamous couple (outside the norm), and then, in this so-called gender-equal society, expects His Woman to remain so while he runs off Exploring Other Worlds Without Her. eeerrrggghhhhhh! Please understand, this isn't a personal attack, it's just that _The Dispossessed_ made me *crazy*! OTOH, Starhawk's _Fifth Sacred Thing_ (which I adore) had a wide variety of healthy sexual relationships, varying ages and genders and numbers of participants. Not fairy tale by a long shot, plenty of ups and downs, in past and present. She's thought a lot about this though, and it shows in her books. How about Piercy's _Woman on the Edge of Time_? The future world (yah, fa'sure) seemed to have a lot of healthy relationships. Odd that I can't think of any more recent books..... On 22 Aug 2000, at 11:30, Rebecca Reitz wrote: Rebecca wrote: So all this talk of role-models and graphic rape scenes in books had me thinking. Are their any science fiction/fantasy books that portray regular, reasonably healthy sexual/ intimate relationships? Ones that are not based on rape or clearly based on a 14 year old boy's sexual fantasies, or straight out of a fairy tale complete with the happily ever after? I tried to come up with a book that has such a relationship but drew a blank. My reply: Hey, Rebecca, I'm a Rebecca too! For a healthy, loving, relationship between a man and a woman check out Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed". The hero, Shevek, has a good thing going with his partner (forgot her name). They are the 7th generation of anarchists who have settled on the moon. Yes, I am one of those devoted Le Guin fans. I love the way she creates entire worlds and the humans in them. On another note: for those who like the "Fearless Women" books: I have gotten my 7 year old daughter the entire series of GIRLS TO THE RESCUE, edited by Bruce Lansky. Clever, courageous resourceful girls having funny and exciting adventures. - REBECCA -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:44:49 -0600 Reply-To: rudileon@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: good sex in sf In-Reply-To: <200008221154_MC2-B07D-551A@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 22 Aug 2000, at 11:49, Dianne Kraft wrote: > Hi everyone, > couldn't resist delurking to talk about reasonable sexual relationships in > sf. Catherine Asaro's books have some, and are also pretty strong in > feminist themes and characters (several of her cultures are matriarchal, > and her protagonists are very strong, independent women, for the most > part). > I was trying to think if I found any of the Asaro relationships to be healthy, and I couldn't really say yes. Is there any one in particular that seemed good to you? The one between Sauscony(?) and the heir to the mindpit guys is so based on that Rhon link that I'm not comfortable thinking of it as possible, and therefore a model of Healthy. Same for the Aunt (the third key) and uncle who seem so loving, and for Sauscony's parents as well. As for the adventures of Keldric (the Bronze God who crashed on that matriarchal planet), well, Asaro's romance writing is perhaps a little too strong for me to see any of *those* relationships as good. And his final great love is also based on the Rhon link.... I'm way open to being disagreed with, though. Rudy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:00:12 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joell Smith Subject: Re: Healthy sexual relationships Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A book that shows both healthy adult relationships AND sexualities that aren't gender based (and I defined that as meaning that the gender or sex of the other person is not the most important criterion in determining their suitability for a potential relationship) is James Alan Gardner's Vigilant. Disclaimer: It's been about two years since I read it, and I freely admit that I often forget sometimes major details. The main character, Faye, is involved in a group marriage in a culture where that was once an accepted practice, but at the current time just isn't done. There's plenty of personal history, and you get to see how the family evolves from the teenagers they were when they got married to a busy child-rearing extended family. Faye eventually falls for another woman from off-planet, and brings her home to the family. Her relationships are not really the central point of the story, which I liked--I hate it when authors make a huge deal of highlighting anything that deviates from traditional white western heterosexual relationships. Anyway, if you're interested, Gardner has four books set in the same universe: Expendable (which is about Festina, the woman Faye falls for), Vigilant, Commitment Hour, and Hunted. That last one just came out last month, and is the only one I haven't read and therefore can't personally recommend whole-heartedly. Joell (another newbie pouncing) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:59:22 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joell Smith Subject: Re: Healthy sexual relationships Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A book that shows both healthy adult relationships AND sexualities that aren't gender based (and I defined that as meaning that the gender or sex of the other person is not the most important criterion in determining their suitability for a potential relationship) is James Alan Gardner's Vigilant. Disclaimer: It's been about two years since I read it, and I freely admit that I often forget sometimes major details. The main character, Faye, is involved in a group marriage in a culture where that was once an accepted practice, but at the current just isn't done. There's plenty of personal history, and you get to see how the family evolves from the teenagers they were when they got married to a busy child-rearing extended family. Faye eventually falls for another woman from off-planet, and brings her home to the family. Her relationships are not really the central point of the story, which I liked-I hate it when authors make a huge deal high-lighting anything that deviates from traditional white western heterosexual relationships. Anyway, if you're interested, Gardner has four books set in the same universe: Expendable (which is about Festina, the woman Faye falls for), Vigilant, Commitment Hour, and Hunted. That last one just came out last month, and is the only one I haven't read and therefore can't personally recommend whole-heartedly. Joell (another newbie pouncing) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:41:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... In-Reply-To: from "Rebecca Neville" at Aug 22, 2000 03:02:26 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rebecca Neville writes: > >So all this talk of role-models and graphic rape scenes in books had me >thinking. Are their any science fiction/fantasy books that portray regular, >reasonably healthy sexual/ intimate relationships? Ones that are not based >on rape or clearly based on a 14 year old boy's sexual fantasies, or >straight out of a fairy tale complete with the happily ever after? I tried >to come up with a book that has such a relationship but drew a blank. I suppose it depends upon what you mean by 'regular' and 'reasonably healthy'. I can think of a lot of books in which the individuals in a relationship are both pretty messed up, but the relationship itself is what I would consider healthy -- two confused people trying to make the best of things without hurting each other. So what is 'healthy?'. Is there an objective definition beyond 'not abusive'? I'm sure some of my younger friends think the relationships portrayed in Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar books are lovely and healthy, but to me they seem like glorified high school 'does he or doesn't he' situations, and even when that question is resolved (he does!), there's still a lot of hiding things to avoid upsetting the other person etc etc -- behaviors which I don't consider healthy. Also, there's the difficulty that it's common for protagonists to be working on issues which keep them from having healthy relationships, so while a book may resolve in one it seems rare that a healthy relationship is part of an ongoing story. Some authors to consider: Barbara Hambly (the Time of the Dark books have some good relationships despite the usual attendant angst) Sean Stewart (as I recall, _Mockingbird_ had a good relationship, and _Resurrection Man_ had the hint of one towards the end) Nicola Griffith (I'm thinking of the couple in _Ammonite_) Lois McMaster Bujold (especially the later ones) Doris Egan (_Two-Bit Heroes_ and _Guilt-Edged Ivory_ Alis Rasmussen (_The Labyrinth Gate_ has a wonderful married couple as the protagonists) Sharon Lee & Steve Miller (the relationships are, perhaps, a little too perfect) Robin McKinley (_The Hero and the Crown_ and _The Outlaws of Sherwood_ both count in my mind) Stephen Gould (_Wildside_ a bit more than _Jumper_, I think) Francesca Lia Block (the Weetzie Bat books rather than her others) Books which I ruled out due to inclusion of graphic rape/torture scenes: Mary Doria Russell (_The Sparrow_, for all its flaws, had several good long-term relationships, but also a rape) S.M. Stirling (_Island in the Sea of Time_ had at least three very good relationships. It also had a plethora of *really* icky scenes) Finally... I'm of two minds about all of this, anyway. I do love books which portray healthy relationships, and I think the world needs more of them. I dislike reading graphic rape scenes, and I vehemently *hate* books which romanticise rape. On the other hand, rape is a large part of American life, and I tend to think that if that's ever going to change the more people who are writing about it and thinking about it in a sensitive & realistic way, the better. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:35:34 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Deborah A. Oosterhouse" Subject: Handmaid's Tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cristen wrote: > I was, and still am horrified by the movie version of The Handmaid's Tale. In > the novel, Atwood kind of distances the reader from the ongoings between the > Commander and Offred. And in that way I never got the feeling it was "all-out > rape" for lack of a better term. But watching the movie... it was all I could > do not to get up and turn it off, which I almost did several times. It was > like sitting there watching someone be raped. I was really just horrified. I > remember laying there in bed that night, unable to sleep, clutching my > boyfriend and shivering. I was far more horrified by the book than by the movie. There was a good amount of time after I saw the movie before I read the book, but I remember the movie being an incredibly watered-down version of the situation that Atwood sets up in the book. The bizarre religious/sexual ritual for producing children was certainly disturbing, but I think I was most horrified by the naming of the Handmaids according to the men's names -- something that didn't really strike me as significantly as it did when I saw the movie. Not being in possession of your own body and sexuality is certainly a terrifying and abhorrent situation, but not even being allowed your own identity as a person -- being only an extension of this man to whom you've been given and the potential mother of his wife's child -- seems to me even worse. Deborah (must be the week for the newbies to come out of the woodwork) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:03:33 +1000 Reply-To: beth@dreamstone.com.au Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Bethany Leditschke Subject: Re: Fearless Women In-Reply-To: <0008220410044M.12452@weba4.iname.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try Wild women who run with the wolves It is an exploration of fairytales and folklore and their meanings and the way in which the original tales have been watered down. Beth Bethany Leditschke Dreamstone a wonderful world of Science Fiction, Fantasy and Space- art prints, art books and resin sculptures go to www.dreamstone.com.au -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Julia Lyall Sent: Tuesday, 22 August 2000 6:10 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] Fearless Women Many thanks to all who flooded me with no less than 14 likely prospects to read up on. I remember Usrula leGuin's Earthsea trilogy and how I loved her lyrical style. The 'Left Hand of Darkness' confused me rather than enlightened me, but then again, I was only in my teens at the time. I think I've got a few C H Cherryh, Samuel Delaney and Joan Vinge somewhere. I'll have to dig them out and re-read them with a fresh perspective. I have bought an interesting book of folklore and fairy tales that portray women who take an active control of their lives (and not necessarily in the evil role). It's called "Fearless Women". I'm going to get a copy and give it to my niece when she's a little older (she's just turned 4). When I was first starting reading, I couldn't find very many strong feminine role models who weren't cast in the wicked stepmother or evil witch mould. Most of the "good" girls seem to be the ones who passively waited to be rescued (invariably by a man). It may be partly the reason why half the girls in my class at 16 (this was about 20 years ago), left to get engaged and were mothers by the time they were 18. I still wonder how they would have fared if they had decided to explore their own potentials, instead of pursuing the traditional role. ------------------------------- Beam to http://www.StarTrek.com The official site of the Star Trek universe -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:39:46 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/22/2000 4:03:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gadfly@BEEN-THERE.COM writes: << ape happens, okay. But to glorify it that way and drag it out and juicify it? I wanted to throw up! I still do! Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Lydia >> Have no idea what book you're talking about. But that's part of the reason why I stopped reading romance novels. I read where the male protagonist rapes the heroine because he think she was a doxy putting up an act. And then she falls for him. Gesh! I guess the problem of making people take rape seriouly has progressed as much as I hoped. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:47:01 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Tabloid props MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/22/2000 9:17:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes: << also agree - I remember a very popular series of novels from many years ago, about some guy with leprosy who kept flipping over into a fantasy world for a jaunt in an epic heroic saga ...one of the books began with a rape scene and I have refused to read anything by that author ever since. Its been so successful, I've forgotten his name and the names of the books in that series. Though they were enormously popular at the time, and are common stock in 2nd-hand bookshops. >> Sounds like you're describing the Leibwitz books. (Canticle for Saint Lebiwitz). I'm sorry but I know I mispelled the name. I love Rusch! Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:50:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Francesca Lia Block (the Weetzie Bat books rather than her others) Hmmmm...Bit doubtful, this one. I seem to recall that in "Weetzie Bat", Weetzie's boyfriend, upon discovering that she's pregnant (after a threesome with two gay guys), runs off and gets another woman pregnant - and THEN abandons HER for Weetzie! The worst part is the way that Block tries to make out that it's all the Other Woman's fault - because she, literally, put a spell on him. Uh huh. Then, in "Cherokee Bat and the Goat Guys", Cherokee's boyfriend Raphael cheats on her (again due to a supposed enchantment - this time from a pair of magic pants. Yes, magic pants. Interesting metaphor there). Does Cherokee leave him? Does she even confront him on this? Nope - she develops anorexia and nearly dies, which of course forces him to come to his senses, realise that she's the one for him, blah blah blah. You know, the worst part is that I really DO like FLB. "I Was A Teenage Fairy" was excellent stuff, and she writes beautifully. But stuff like this really, really annoys me upon reflection (plus, I seem to recall that she's been quoted as saying that we need a "less harsh" word for feminism. Whatever, Francesca). So, no, the Weetzie Bat relationships (with the exception of Dirk and Duck, the aforementioned gay guys, who do seem to be pretty healthy) are not really what I would call model relationships. Sant. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:51:53 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/22/2000 11:03:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rebecne@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << So all this talk of role-models and graphic rape scenes in books had me thinking. Are their any science fiction/fantasy books that portray regular, reasonably healthy sexual/ intimate relationships? Ones that are not based on rape or clearly based on a 14 year old boy's sexual fantasies, or straight out of a fairy tale complete with the happily ever after? I tried to come up with a book that has such a relationship but drew a blank. -Rebecca >> Rusch's Fey books Willliam Horwood's books Some of Mercedes Lackey books, ie the Oathbound books Jennifer Roberson's Tiger and Del books, and LAdy of the Forest Tanya Huff's Blood Books Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's Count Saint Germain Terry Pratchett (believe me, look at Angua and Carrot) Patrica C. Wrede in Tam Lin and The Enchanted Forest Chronicles and many others Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:54:40 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/22/2000 4:43:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, diony@IDIOM.COM writes: << o all this talk of role-models and graphic rape scenes in books had me >thinking. Are their any science fiction/fantasy books that portray regular, >reasonably healthy sexual/ intimate relationships? Ones that are not based >on rape or clearly based on a 14 year old boy's sexual fantasies, or >straight out of a fairy tale complete with the happily ever after? I tried >to come up with a book that has such a relationship but d >> How about Orson Scott Card? I love the way he wrote the novelization for the Abyass Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:58:52 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/22/2000 4:43:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, diony@IDIOM.COM writes: << o all this talk of role-models and graphic rape scenes in books had me >thinking. Are their any science fiction/fantasy books that portray regular, >reasonably healthy sexual/ intimate relationships? Ones that are not based >on rape or clearly based on a 14 year old boy's sexual fantasies, or >straight out of a fairy tale complete with the happily ever after? I tried >to come up with a book that has such a relationship but drew a blank. >> Thought of another. Kim Newman. In Anno-Dacula the realtionship is between a vampire woman and a british gent. In his novella "The Other Side of Midnight" the reader finds out that they stayed together until his death. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 02:54:21 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julia Lyall Subject: Mother-daugjter relationships MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My mother was the 13th child from the 2nd wife (polygamy still being a status symbol in that part of Asia at the time). To this day, I regret being only 7 when my grandmother died and not having the opportunity to ask her what it was like for her in that feudal setting. She then survived the Japanese Occupation and stole food from the Japanese to feed the family. Shades of 'Wild Swans' and 'Joy Luck Club' are familar stories with what I gather from my older aunts and uncles. I remember being told by my mother to take care of my looks and obey my husband when I was a child. These days, she tells me to be self-sufficient and not wait around to be rescued. When I think about her, I marvel at how she's adapted to what must have been tremendous social and economic changes in her lifetime. She was conditioned to expect the Man to be in charge, yet in her 30s, with 3 children, she found herself being the sole breadwinner for the family. It wasn't an easy transition, but we all made it through those days. So perhaps, I'm fortunate in that I know some pretty interesting strong women, from whom I can draw inspiration in character portrayals. ------------------------------- Beam to http://www.StarTrek.com The official site of the Star Trek universe -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 06:59:37 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: LeGuin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed To the person who wrote: >THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS is =the= book I'd take with me if I got >stranded >on a desert island. (That, or THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS.) That's where you LeGuin fans are going wrong. Better choices are _Edible Plants of the Pacific Islands_ and _Boat Building for Beginners_. But more seriously, John Snead wrote: >Wow, opinions definitely differ. I *loved* Left Hand of Darkness and >honestly can't stand either The Handmaid's Tale or any of Octavia >Butler's novels (I find Butler to be more of an axe-grinder than a >storyteller). The key to LeGuin's TLHoD is loving lavish >descriptions of cultures and examining the role of an outsider in >such a culture. LeGuin's father was an anthropologist and this >influence shows in her novels. Having an MA in anthro I love this >level of rich detail. OTOH, if you don't most of her longer works >aren't for you. >It's somewhat dated now, but so is almost any piece of 60s or >early 70s feminist SF. Can anyone thing of any exceptions? John, I agree with you that anthropological description is LeGuin's strong point - it nearly saved _The Word for World is Forest_, which I still can't dislike even though it's somewhat naive politics irritate me. I suppose my problems with _The Left Hand of Darkness_ originated partly because of its dated qualities [that "he" for supposedly androgynous lifeforms is a big stumbling block - LeGuin herself has written an interesting essay on the problems this causes, which can be found in her collection _Dancing on the Edge of the World_ if anyone is interested], and partly because I simply didn't like the culture involved. It's probably a result of growing up in the tropics, but I just don't get all that heroic battling in snow and ice stuff. Give me rainforest-dwelling ewoks any time. The pronoun problems and the snow combined made it very difficult for me to empathise with any of the characters, which is probably why I couldn't sustain any interest in the plot. For less dated 70s feminist SF, I still like Marge Piercy's _Woman on the Edge of Time_ and Joanna Russ' _The Female Man_. But then again, I think Octavia Butler is one of the best writers I've ever read, so you probably shouldn't listen to me. Particularly since she's a lot less of an "axe-grinder" than Piercy or Russ. I haven't read _The Handmaid's Tale_ since it came out when I was around fourteen or so, but I remember I found it absolutely chilling at the time. With the way conservative politics are going here in Australia, Atwood's dystopia is becoming more and more relevant by the minute. [For non-Aussies, our parliament is currently debating whether or not to change the sex-discrimination act to enable the states to deny infertility treatment to single women and lesbians]. Kate ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 00:34:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... In-Reply-To: <200008230502.AAA18422@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Rebecca Neville wrote: > So all this talk of role-models and graphic rape scenes in books had > me thinking. Are their any science fiction/fantasy books that portray > regular, reasonably healthy sexual/ intimate relationships? Ones > that are not based on rape or clearly based on a 14 year old boy's > sexual fantasies, or straight out of a fairy tale complete with the > happily ever after? I tried to come up with a book that has such a > relationship but drew a blank. Megan Lindholm's Ki & Vandian series (Harpy's Flight, The Windsingers, The Limbreth Gate , Luck of the Wheels). Melissa Scott also generally goes quite well, _Night Sky Mine_ features both an well-done adolescent romance and a long-term romantic relationship. However, the relationships in her books are rarely as foregrounded as the one in the Ki & Vandian books is. The two main characters are very much in love and are in one of the best-portrayed egalitarian romantic relationships I've ever seen in fiction. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:07:02 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... In-Reply-To: <200008230250.VAA49278@listserv.uic.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 8/22/00 8:50 PM, Santanico at trekkie@NLC.NET.AU wrote: > like this really, really annoys me upon reflection (plus, I seem to recall > that she's been quoted as saying that we need a "less harsh" word for > feminism. Whatever, Francesca). -l. -- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:08:36 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Role models, rape, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Another good relationship is in Tim Power's _Anubis Gates_ -- actually, a lot of the Tim Powers books have good relationships at their core. IIRC, they are all heterosexual -- the magic in the Tim Powers books is usually unabashedly gender-based (such as the King and Queen of Hearts in _Last Call_) I think there are a lot of books out there with gratuitious rape or torture scenes. I can only conclude that there are a lot of readers who like that stuff. John Barnes is a good enough writer that I read his books anyway, even though I frequently find parts of them distasteful. Terry Goodkind is a poor writer IMO, and puts these weird S&M sex magic scenes into his fantasy. Susan Matthews wrote this series about a torturer that I cannot bear, because of the constant miasma of sexualized violence that pervades them. And Poppy Z. Brite... well, let's just leave it right there. But all of these authors are successful, particularly Goodkind, who probably has the worst prose style of any... I just don't get it. Danny ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:09:44 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Mother-daugjter relationships In-Reply-To: <000823025421G6.20299@weba4.iname.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 8/23/00 12:54 AM, Julia Lyall at juliall@STARTREKMAIL.COM wrote: > I remember being told by my mother to take care of my looks and obey my > husband when I was a child. These days, she tells me to be self-sufficient and > not wait around to be rescued. When I think about her, I marvel at how she's > adapted to what must have been tremendous social and economic changes in her > lifetime. She was conditioned to expect the Man to be in charge, yet in her > 30s, with 3 children, she found herself being the sole breadwinner for the > family. It wasn't an easy transition, but we all made it through those days. What an inspiring story, Julia. -l. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:55:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jesse the K Subject: Cold Treks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I'm up for a wrangle. I love everlasting treks through icy wastelands because *they are part of my experience.* Hey! I live in Wisconsin! There is beauty in Winter, if one seeks it out. For all those other lurkers out there with Sorel boots and hats you actually wear in the winter and forty-three layers of wool and fleece, here's a reccy on another everlasting trek novel: _Mission Child_ by Maureen McHugh. While distinct gender roles are certainly examined and challenged, I found its central issue to be colonialism. Made me cry muchly. PS: I also loved the _Left Hand of Darkness_ because I read it when it first came out. It introduced me to writers who were willing to play with gender roles, and power issues (off/on planet). It may be difficult to recreate the thrill of that discovery for a Heinlein-obsessed kid. (Libertarianism is all very well but RAH's seem to allow only exceptionally-powerful and bold women freedom. Must admit though that Moon's heroine's decision not to have children was the very first time I'd encountered that possibility, which I immediately embraced and have never regretted, 30 years on.) At 1:35 AM +0000 8/22/00, Kate Dall wrote: >Why on earth are everlasting treks through icy wastelands >considered interesting and/or feminist? Doris Lessing gives it a go in one >of her _Shikasta_ books and it's just as awful there. And all those dreadful >Winter planets. -- Jesse the K -- Madison Wisconsin USA -- Diagonally parked in a parallel universe. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:16:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Alex Joyce Subject: Re: Role models, rape, etc. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Terry Goodkind is a poor writer IMO, and puts these weird S&M sex >magic scenes into his fantasy. He's a terrible writer, and he ripped off his plot from a Terry Brooks. Personally i thought the only good (and original) writing he did was the S&M scenes. If you want to avoid really horrific sci-fi, stay away from David Wingrove's "Broken Wheel" series. I picked 'em up on a whim in a used bookstore. I got through the first, and part of the second book before throw them out with the garbage. I was too horrified to sell them back to the bookstore. He seems to be one of those writers who either genuinely enjoys graphic, pointless violence, or thinks he can't sell books without it. On another note, Sheri Tepper occasionally writes about things that turn my stomach, but they're always important to the story and i consider her to be a feminist writer. Alex -- Alex Joyce, catnip@lazykitty.com on 08/23/2000 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:27:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Roxanne Korpal Subject: Re: Role models, rape, etc. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just had to comment because I'm a Goodkind fan.. even more so than a Robert Jordan fan. (and less so than a McCaffrey fan). On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, Daniel Krashin wrote: > I think there are a lot of books out there with gratuitious rape or > torture scenes. I can only conclude that there are a lot of readers > who like that stuff. > Terry Goodkind is a poor writer IMO, and puts these weird S&M sex > magic scenes into his fantasy. I'm sorry you feel that way about his writing. I'm not going to even attempt to sway/correct you since, as you stated, its purely opinion. "like" and "dislike" are personal and I'd be surprised if ever ANYTHING comes out that everyone will universally agree with. I think that the psychological aspects/meanings behind these scenes are being missed. Control, self control, self pity, self destruction.. all very important parts of plot and character development in many stories, of any genre (movie, written, enacted, spoken). > But all of these authors are successful, particularly Goodkind, who > probably has the worst prose style of any... I just don't get it. > > Danny Wouldn't it be the media-monster, and the publisher who was responsible for what is ultimately released to the public? I think we'd have a never ending loop if we tried analyzing the reader-publisher-media-sales circle. =) Anyways, read on and enjoy! Roxy http://www.its.ilstu.edu/rmkorpa "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Krishnamurti -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:56:07 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Cold Treks In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 8/23/00 8:55 AM, Jesse the K at jesse@MAILBAG.COM wrote: > I'm up for a wrangle. > > I love everlasting treks through icy wastelands because *they are > part of my experience.* Hey! I live in Wisconsin! There is beauty in > Winter, if one seeks it out. > I have to admit, I love wintry stuff, too. In fact my next book is set on an icy moon of a jovian giant. Lots of snow and ice. :) I think I did it partly to contrast with PROXIES, which is set in an overheated Earth. I'm doing the rewrites now, and it sure is a good tonic for the New Mexico desert's blistering summer heat. *snip* > > PS: I also loved the _Left Hand of Darkness_ because I read it when > it first came out. It introduced me to writers who were willing to > play with gender roles, and power issues (off/on planet). It may be > difficult to recreate the thrill of that discovery for a > Heinlein-obsessed kid. (Libertarianism is all very well but RAH's > seem to allow only exceptionally-powerful and bold women freedom. > Must admit though that Moon's heroine's decision not to have children > was the very first time I'd encountered that possibility, which I > immediately embraced and have never regretted, 30 years on.) I'm with you, Jesse, on all counts. Gender-exploring stuff is much more common now than it was then. I disliked the use of the male pronoun to represent gender-neutrality, myself, but LeGuin was doing things NO ONE was doing, back then. It really blew me away. And while many of Heinlein's books (especially the later ones) so straitjacketed women that I couldn't stand reading them, I loved how he toyed with concepts of group marriage in MOON. (I think the thing that was hardest for me, vis-a-vis Heinlein, was that he =was= challenging the stereotypical cardboard-cutout females, in some ways.) What I find encouraging is that we've made enough progress in what gets published, that women growing up later than those of us whose opinions were shaped by what we read in the 60s/70s can't get what we found so exciting about works like LHOD. That is rather remarkable. -l. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:45:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Tabloid Props >From: Christine Ethier >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Tabloid props >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >In a message dated 8/22/2000 9:17:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes: ><< also agree - I remember a very popular series of novels from many years > ago, about some guy with leprosy who kept flipping over into a fantasy > world for a jaunt in an epic heroic saga ...one of the books began with a > rape scene and I have refused to read anything by that author ever since. > Its been so successful, I've forgotten his name and the names of the books > in that series. Though they were enormously popular at the time, and are > common stock in 2nd-hand bookshops. >> >Sounds like you're describing the Leibwitz books. (Canticle for Saint >Lebiwitz). I'm sorry but I know I mispelled the name. No, the novel _A Canticle for Leibowitz_ was written by Walter M. Miller, Jr. and contains no rape scene and neither does the sequel, to the best of my knowledge, though I haven't read all of it and am unsure of the name, but it's something like, _Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman_. The novel to which I believe you're referring is Stephen Donaldson's White Gold Wielder series, and the first volume, _Lord Foul's Bane_ does indeed contain a rape scene. The name of the first trilogy is _The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever_ and Covenant, the anti-hero and rapist, goes on a journey with the mother of the victim because the mother of the victim vowed to save her people and the only way she can save her people is by helping Covenant. For what it's worth, she savagely berates him the whole journey and tells him what a savage beast he is, etc. >I love Rusch! >Chris Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:14:07 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... In-Reply-To: <200008230250.VAA49278@listserv.uic.edu> from "Santanico" at Aug 22, 2000 09:50:56 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Santanico writes: > >>Francesca Lia Block (the Weetzie Bat books rather than her others) > > You know, the worst part is that I really DO like FLB. "I Was A >Teenage Fairy" was excellent stuff, and she writes beautifully. But stuff >like this really, really annoys me upon reflection (plus, I seem to recall >that she's been quoted as saying that we need a "less harsh" word for >feminism. Whatever, Francesca). So, no, the Weetzie Bat relationships (with >the exception of Dirk and Duck, the aforementioned gay guys, who do seem to >be pretty healthy) are not really what I would call model relationships. Ouch. Thank you. I read these books in one three-hour sitting and was swept away by the language -- I don't remember a thing you've mentioned here, but I have no doubt that it's all there. I'll have to pay more attention when I reread them. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:05:06 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Role models, rape, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/23/2000 10:12:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dkrashin@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << erry Goodkind is a poor writer IMO, and puts these weird S&M sex magic scenes into his fantasy. >> Liked Goodkind yet his last novel because I liked his female characters. However I thought that the main female lead was too accepting of her lovers supposed "marriage". {Marriage in name only, ritual type thing} Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 23:19:29 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Role models, rape, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/23/2000 11:26:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, catnip@LAZYKITTY.COM writes: << Terry Goodkind is a poor writer IMO, and puts these weird S&M sex >magic scenes into his fantasy. He's a terrible writer, and he ripped off his plot from a Terry Brooks. Personally i thought the only good (and original) writing he did was the S&M scenes. >> Only good book Brooks did was the first Shannra novel Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 04:17:00 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Role models, rape, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed ><< Terry Goodkind is a poor writer IMO, and puts these weird S&M sex > >magic scenes into his fantasy. > He's a terrible writer, and he ripped off his plot from a Terry > Brooks. Personally i thought the only good (and original) writing he > did was the S&M scenes. > >> >Only good book Brooks did was the first Shannra novel > >Chris > And that was the dodgiest _Lord of the Rings_ rip off I've ever seen. Kate ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:11:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Cold Treks In-Reply-To: <200008240501.AAA53154@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" wrote: > on 8/23/00 8:55 AM, Jesse the K at jesse@MAILBAG.COM wrote: > > > I'm up for a wrangle. > > > > I love everlasting treks through icy wastelands because *they are > > part of my experience.* Hey! I live in Wisconsin! There is beauty in > > Winter, if one seeks it out. > > > > I have to admit, I love wintry stuff, too. In fact my next book is > set on an icy moon of a jovian giant. Lots of snow and ice. :) I > think I did it partly to contrast with PROXIES, which is set in an > overheated Earth. I'm doing the rewrites now, and it sure is a good > tonic for the New Mexico desert's blistering summer heat. Yep, me too. Reading about tropical jungles makes me itch (I loathe hot weather, and have little interest in ever visiting the tropics). However, I lived for 4 years in Wisconsin (Madison) and love stories of ice flows, snow, and blizzards. Such are different tastes. > *snip* > > > > PS: I also loved the _Left Hand of Darkness_ because I read it when > > it first came out. It introduced me to writers who were willing to > > play with gender roles, and power issues (off/on planet). It may be > > difficult to recreate the thrill of that discovery for a > > Heinlein-obsessed kid. (Libertarianism is all very well but RAH's > > seem to allow only exceptionally-powerful and bold women freedom. > > Must admit though that Moon's heroine's decision not to have > > children was the very first time I'd encountered that possibility, > > which I immediately embraced and have never regretted, 30 years on.) > > I'm with you, Jesse, on all counts. > > Gender-exploring stuff is much more common now than it was then. I > disliked the use of the male pronoun to represent gender-neutrality, > myself, but LeGuin was doing things NO ONE was doing, back then. It > really blew me away. > > And while many of Heinlein's books (especially the later ones) so > straitjacketed women that I couldn't stand reading them, I loved how > he toyed with concepts of group marriage in MOON. (I think the thing > that was hardest for me, vis-a-vis Heinlein, was that he =was= > challenging the stereotypical cardboard-cutout females, in some ways.) Sad but *very* true. Most SF writers back then could not write female characters worth a damn. I enjoyed Poul Anderson's work as a child, but even when I was 12 I realized he had problems wrt gender. Witness the last lines of _A Circus of Hells_ [Anderson, 1970] "He watched her, shrugged, sighed- 'Women! The aliens among us!'- and sauntered alone towards the shuttle into town, where he could properly celebrate his victory." The worst 50s mentality even in 1970... However, the worst eample I know of this is in a book I really like. I found Gordon R. Dickson's _Time Storm_ to be interesting and well written, but in one way it was quite sad. Unlike the vast majority of his other work, Dickson clearly tried to include powerful female characters. However, wrt charaterization he totally failed. The female leader of Hawaii was clearly a slighly less cardboard version of the hackneyed "frigid bitch" sterotype, and the main character's female side-kick was a standard 50sesque passive female sterotype with a bit more characterization added. It's bad enough when male authors of that era didn't both to try to include deep or complex female characters, but to see one attempt to do so and fail so utterly is IMHO even worse. From everything I've read the 50s and early 60s must have been a truly horrific era to produce such a deep and lasting degree of gender separation. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:11:53 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Role models, rape, etc. In-Reply-To: <200008240501.AAA53154@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Daniel Krashin wrote: > Another good relationship is in Tim Power's _Anubis Gates_ -- > actually, a lot of the Tim Powers books have good relationships at > their core. IIRC, they are all heterosexual -- the magic in the Tim > Powers books is usually unabashedly gender-based (such as the King and > Queen of Hearts in _Last Call_) > > I think there are a lot of books out there with gratuitious rape or > torture scenes. I can only conclude that there are a lot of readers > who like that stuff. > > John Barnes is a good enough writer that I read his books anyway, even > though I frequently find parts of them distasteful. > > Terry Goodkind is a poor writer IMO, and puts these weird S&M sex > magic scenes into his fantasy. I do think it is useful to distinguish the types of sexualized violence and power that are in a story. Rape scenes and similar non- consensual sex scenes usually really disgust me (I've seen them used in worthwhile ways, but this is rare, and always involves them being short and not described in detail). OTOH, consensual S&M and similar kinks are a whole different matter. While such things are not to some people's taste, I don't see their presence as being vile, disgusting, or the sign of a morally dubious writer. Btw, as many other people have said, the rape scene in the first Thomas Covenant book was very offensive but then again, the whole series was quite terrible. Donaldson is best avoided as a writer. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:32:53 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: Don't You Hate It When ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Ouch. Thank you. I read these books in one three-hour sitting and >was swept away by the language -- I don't remember a thing you've >mentioned here, but I have no doubt that it's all there. I'll have >to pay more attention when I reread them. You know, that's the way I suspect FLB affects _everyone_. You read her stuff, the sheer beauty of the language entrances you - and about two hours later, you realise that, politically speaking, her stories are pretty darn screwed up. A bit like biting into a big, juicy red apple and finding a worm. Still, her writing style is so addictive that I suppose I can continue to overlook her politics... Sant. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:04:42 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Handmaid's Tale In-Reply-To: <39A2F225.ABFA5B33@wmis.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Deborah A. Oosterhouse wrote: > I was far more horrified by the book than by the movie. (snip) > but I think I was most horrified by the > naming of the Handmaids according to the men's names -- something that didn't > really strike me as significantly as it did when I saw the movie. Not being in > possession of your own body and sexuality is certainly a terrifying and > abhorrent situation, but not even being allowed your own identity as a person > -- being only an extension of this man to whom you've been given and the > potential mother of his wife's child -- seems to me even worse. > What else is the designation "Mrs. John Smith"? Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:18:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kirsten Hoyte Subject: recent discussions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wow! I really enjoy belonging to this list, but I have been finding it so odd because in general, I vehemently disagree with so many opinions. So often, I find books that I adore being criticized so strongly and then so many that I don't like are so clearly enjoyed by others. Oh well. Different strokes.... blah blah. I love Ursula LeGuin, particularly the Dispossessed. Shevek is an incredibly flawed character, one who struggles because he has learned to look at everything through the lens of an ideology which can never encompass the whole of human experience. I read the text that he wanted his wife to accompany him and she chose not to because there was no meaningful work for her on the other planet. Their culture and politics dictated that each separate in order to do the work most meaningful to them and that comes before family. Exactly the unhappy scenario which lead to some of Shevek's alienation in the first place when his parents separated and left him. I found the Sparrow (and somewhat less so its sequel) incredibly moving. I also really enjoy most of Octavia Butler's books. I rarely read or enjoy fantasy but Guy Gavriel Kay's Summer Tree trilogy is one of my favorites. As far as rape scenes etc go. I wish they weren't there. I was also very turned disturbed by the one scene in Halfway Human. However, I won't put down the book because it has one unless the author keeps on repeatedly writing gratuitous scenes for no point or the violence or rape is unrealistically eroticized or made nice. I feel about those scenes in science fiction much the way I feel about gun and war violence in sci-fi books and movies. I don't want to read it, but if I eliminated every single book which contains those scenes, I would miss a lot of science fiction. And I am torn on the question of "heathy" relationships. Yes I like to see them, but to be frank. most people I know are flawed. Many relationships that I witness are about people struggling to be healthy despite their flaws. I don't want to constantly read about willfully unhealthy people, but relationships are hard and are complicated by personality, power, sex, self-esteem, general confusion and other stuff. I like to see the whole spectrum. Kirsten -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:12:31 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Cold Treks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi everyone, Many apologies to anyone offended by my comments on icy wastelands. Three months of winter has obviously made me a bit more harsh than I meant to be on this topic. I would never deny that there is a great deal of beauty in icy landscapes. What I don't like is the seemingly quite common use of such landscapes to symbolise a psychological "enemy" which burns away shallow concerns to expose the "pure" human [or alien] spirit during the completion of a quest. Doris Lessing's _The Making of the Representative for Planet 8_ is actually much more irritating in this way than _The Left Hand of Darkness_, but LeGuin uses this theme too, IMO. This doesn't mean I can't stand any novel with ice treks in it. I'm rather fond of Kim Stanley Robinson's _Antarctica_ for instance, which I think treats the landscape with more respect, as and for itself, rather than for the sake of purifying the characters. Actually, I'm not overly fond of the symbolic use of rainforest for politically or psychologically dubious purposes either. I think LeGuin does this in _The Word for World is Forest_ too, it's just that in the case of that book, the forest symbolises an innocent, gentle and co-operative way of life - which I find politically naive, but doesn't actively repulse me. On the other hand, it has absolutely nothing to do with real rainforests, as (I assume)the purification stuff has very little to do with real ice. Kate. Jesse, Laura and John wrote: >I'm up for a wrangle. > >I love everlasting treks through icy wastelands because *they are >part of my experience.* Hey! I live in Wisconsin! There is beauty in >Winter, if one seeks it out. > > I have to admit, I love wintry stuff, too. In fact my next book is > > set on an icy moon of a jovian giant. Lots of snow and ice. :) I > > think I did it partly to contrast with PROXIES, which is set in an > > overheated Earth. I'm doing the rewrites now, and it sure is a good > > tonic for the New Mexico desert's blistering summer heat. >Yep, me too. Reading about tropical jungles makes me itch (I >loathe hot weather, and have little interest in ever visiting the >tropics). However, I lived for 4 years in Wisconsin (Madison) and >love stories of ice flows, snow, and blizzards. Such are different >tastes. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:41:12 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Cold Treks In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 8/24/00 6:12 PM, Kate Dall at kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > Many apologies to anyone offended by my comments on icy wastelands. Kate, FWIW, I certainly wasn't offended by your remarks. -- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 21:48:58 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Role models, rape, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/24/2000 12:24:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << And that was the dodgiest _Lord of the Rings_ rip off I've ever seen. Kate ______________ >> Wasn't it? At least McKeirnan moved on to write good stuff. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:04:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julia Lyall Subject: Re: Role models, rape, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I admit I'm rather partial to some of Sheri Tepper's work, particularly her 'Jinian' series and 'The Enigma Score'. Some do frighten me, eg 'Grass', 'Blood Heritage', 'The Bones' and 'Still Life'. But I do remember an interesting point where the female protagonist in 'The Bones', Mahlia, tries to deny her witchcraft, so as to be politically correct for her new husband (hmm, shades of 'Bewitched'). But it simply causes her no end of trouble and she has to use her gifts to save her children. Because a woman's gotta do what a woman's got to do. I was less than entranced with 'Beauty' because of the rape scene in it. It was very briefly mentioned and only used to paint the savagery in society, and how inner beauty can win despite ugly natures. It was still very painful to skim through and I could only manage one reading of it. Yes, I know, I'm screamish but I think we should never allow ourselves to be imbued by violence of any kind. Julia ---- you wrote: > On another note, Sheri Tepper occasionally writes about things that > turn my stomach, but they're always important to the story and i > consider her to be a feminist writer. > > Alex > > -- Alex Joyce, catnip@lazykitty.com on 08/23/2000 ------------------------------- Beam to http://www.StarTrek.com The official site of the Star Trek universe -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:36:04 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Juno Gregory Subject: Off Topic Request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone. I'm a list lurker here, and have very much enjoyed it. I led a discussion of "The Sparrow" on the Salon Table Talk discussion forum last year which generated a lot of controversy, and that is what -- eventually --led me here. I'm a free-lance journalist on the literature beat, and, for example, I did a piece for Salon.com in May on the notorious "Gor" novels and the way their fans had tried to bring the "philosophy" in them into their real lives. Here's the URL for that article, called "Chain Gang": http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2000/05/18/gor/index.html What I'm posting here for today is something so off topic that I have hesitated over it for a few days. But here goes. I'm trying a Six Degrees of Separation method to get in touch with Andrea Dworkin or any of her friends/acquaintances. I have been assigned to read her new book, "Scapegoat: The Jews, Israel and Women's Liberation" for Salon, and in researching it I came across a controversy in the British press about her. In June she published an account of being drugged and raped in a European hotel room last year, and afterward a British columnist named Catherine Bennett called the incident into question in an article titled "Doubts about Dworkin." A recriminatory pile-on ensued in the press. It seems that no one wants to believe that the rape actually occurred. I found this especially interesting in view of the subject of her book, scapegoating, and the parallels she draws between the situation of women and the situation of the Jews in history. I might be able to draw parallels between Andrea being disbelieved in the press and the "Holocaust deniers" she discusses in her book -- depending on what I can discover about the situation. So...does anyone here have any contacts that might lead me to Andrea and/or the truth of her situation, and/or how this media disbelief has affected her? In fact, any Internet leads at all bearing on the subject would be most appreciated. My deadline is next Friday. (It would probably be best if any replies were offlist.) Thank you, Judith Greer/"Julia Gracen" -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:14:10 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: recent discussions In-Reply-To: from "Kirsten Hoyte" at Aug 24, 2000 03:18:14 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirsten Hoyte writes: > >I found the Sparrow (and somewhat less so its sequel) incredibly moving. >I also really enjoy most of Octavia Butler's books. I rarely read or >enjoy fantasy but Guy Gavriel Kay's Summer Tree trilogy is one of my >favorites. I don't think the Sparrow was very good science-fiction (ie: the science in places was very bad), but I did find it to be an extremely moving book. I'm also not sure if I think it was a *good* book or not; it was so emotionally powerful for me that I wasn't able to make that sort of judgement. I loved The Fionavar Tapestry (Kay's trilogy) when I read it at 13, and I loved it when I read it at 19. I haven't read it since; I'd like to think that I'd still love it but I'm not sure. I suspect I need to be in a particular sort of mood to enjoy that kind of high fantasy. >As far as rape scenes etc go. I wish they weren't there. I was also very >turned disturbed by the one scene in Halfway Human. However, I won't put >down the book because it has one unless the author keeps on repeatedly >writing gratuitous scenes for no point or the violence or rape is >unrealistically eroticized or made nice. I feel about those scenes in >science fiction much the way I feel about gun and war violence in sci-fi >books and movies. I don't want to read it, but if I eliminated every >single book which contains those scenes, I would miss a lot of science >fiction. I am, still, torn about rape scenes. On the one hand, they're upsetting. On the other hand, if they're well done they can be a very powerful way of talking about something which a lot of women have experienced. It all depends on how & why it was done. Similarly, I on the one hand share the frustration a lot of women seem to feel about Yet Another Abuse Surviving Protagonist... but on the other hand, can't it be powerful and encouraging for abuse survivors to read about those women? Again, it depends on how & why it was done. >And I am torn on the question of "heathy" relationships. Yes I like to >see them, but to be frank. most people I know are flawed. Many >relationships that I witness are about people struggling to be healthy >despite their flaws. I don't want to constantly read about willfully >unhealthy people, but relationships are hard and are complicated by >personality, power, sex, self-esteem, general confusion and other stuff. >I like to see the whole spectrum. I agree! Real relationships are difficult things, beset by many problems. This doesn't, in my mind, make them unhealthy. I love seeing realistic relationships in books, especially books in which people handle the problems in a sensible manner, or figure out how to during the course of the story. I've been mulling over this whole issue of healthy relationships in books, and I've determined that what _really_ gets to me is when an author portrays an unhealthy relationship as a healthy one. I don't mean where a character thinks they're in a good relationship but is really in a bad one, but rather where the author uses their narrative voice to give a Stamp of Approval to the type of relationship being seen. It doesn't matter in my mind *how* the relationship is unhealthy; whether it's abusive and chock full of romanticised sexual violence, or it's merely full of stupid miscommunications and a lack of good boundaries. In either case, having the author tell you (explicitly or implicitly) that this is an Excellent Relationship often causes me to fling the book across the room. Those are the sorts of books I wouldn't want my children (if I had any, which I don't yet) to read until they were old enough to have involved discussions with me about it; I'd really need the chance to explain to them that just because the characters lived 'happily ever after' doesn't mean that's how it actually works if you treat someone like that. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 15:17:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: Role models, rape, etc. In-Reply-To: <00082422040220.15397@weba6.iname.net> from "Julia Lyall" at Aug 24, 2000 10:04:02 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julia Lyall writes: > >I admit I'm rather partial to some of Sheri Tepper's work, particularly >her 'Jinian' series and 'The Enigma Score'. Some do frighten me, eg >'Grass', 'Blood Heritage', 'The Bones' and 'Still Life'. But I do remember >an interesting point where the female protagonist in 'The Bones', Mahlia, >tries to deny her witchcraft, so as to be politically correct for her >new husband (hmm, shades of 'Bewitched'). But it simply causes her no >end of trouble and she has to use her gifts to save her children. Because >a woman's gotta do what a woman's got to do. The whole idea of "women's work" and that in the end it's the women's job to get their hands dirty seems prevelant in Tepper's work -- except I for the life of me cannot think of a single specific incident, although I'm sure there are some. I know I just read _Gibbon's Decline and Fall_; is it my imagination that this topic came up and was discussed by the female leads of the book? -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:01:57 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: recent discussions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/25/2000 6:14:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, diony@IDIOM.COM writes: << I am, still, torn about rape scenes. On the one hand, they're upsetting. On the other hand, if they're well done they can be a very powerful way of talking about something which a lot of women have experienced. It all depends on how & why it was done. Similarly, I on the one hand share the frustration a lot of women seem to feel about Yet Another Abuse Surviving Protagonist... but on the other hand, can't it be powerful and encouraging for abuse survivors to read about those women? Again, it depends on how & why it was done. >> This discussion of rape scenes has me wondering if anyone else has read the first Sword and Sorceress collection (ed. by Zimmer Bradley)? I remember when I first brought and read the introduction by Bradley, where she said she didn't want the standard rape and revenge story, but for the collection she got rape stories and she accpeted them because they had twists. A good example would be that one stories goes that the woman gets raped, gives birth to the child, and then her rapist comes to claim the child. She then goes off to rescue the child. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:55:37 -0600 Reply-To: rudileon@earthlink.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rudy Leon Subject: Re: Lathe of Heaven Comments: To: Feministsf-lit@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <200008252217.PAA83896@idiom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello all! I'm not sure if this is national, but PBS in Denver is showing _The Lathe of Heaven_ on Saturday Sept. 2, 8:00 mountain time. As far as I know, this is their first airing of it since its re-release last Spring. I'm thrilled, because I thought I was never going to get to see it! Rudy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.