From LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu Fri Jan 26 13:40:31 2001 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:59:01 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0010A" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 13:55:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: McKinley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Just a little sidenote on McKinley: she's recently rewritten the >Beauty and the Beast myth again in a book entitled Rose Daughter. She >changed the ending and altered some of the characterizations, but >there's enough of an echo to draw a reader of her Beauty in. She said as >she grew older the ending of Beauty just didn't work for her anymore. >I'd also recommend The Door in the Hedge, a book of short stories, and >there's also Deerskin, although it's been so long since I read Deerskin >that I don't honestly remember if I liked it or not. Just else something >for McKinley readers to enjoy! >Joanne Campbell Tidwell I liked Beauty better than Rose Daughter, but I seemed to have liked Rose Daughter a lot more than most other McKinley fans I've talked to. I liked that she changed the end and had so many details about roses in Rose Daughter. I thought Deerskin was excellent, but very dark. It's definitely not for young readers, but since it has Robin McKinley's name on the cover, some people think it is. I haven't read The Door in the Hedge yet, but my library system has it, so I'll probably get it soon. I've only read 5 of McKinley's books and I can't wait to read the rest of them. Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 14:47:31 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Beth Brown Subject: George R R Martin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The second book of Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series, "A Clash of Kings" has just come out in paperback. Considering the interesting development of several female characters in the first book, "A Game of Thrones", I was a little surprised to never see it mentioned here. In Game, an empire held by a part human, part dragon dynasty on a preindustrial planet was overthrown after the death of the last dragon, creating a field ripe for chaos, intrigue and general mayhem. Many male characters set themselves up as petty kings, the new emperor, and various other positions of power, and others plot to oppose and overthrow them. Two adult women, Cersei, the queen, and Catelyn, lady of House Stark (a dynasty with strong ties to a species of extra-large, extra-intelligent wolf), play leading roles in Game, exerting their power in very different ways. Two children emerge as strongly developing forces which are further developed in Clash: Arya Stark, an 8-year-old girl who evades all attempts to make her the noblewoman she was born to be, learns swordfighting and eventually survives great peril in the guise of a boy; and Daenerys, one of the few surviving members of the dragon family, who at 13 is sold in marriage by her brother but by 15 is a strong political threat to those in power, not to mention having already shaken the foundations of supernatural practices on two continents. Martin was the editor of the Wild Card Series, a mosaic novel series which was unique in having a large number of well-developed main characters, each written by a different author and then blended together. He has used a somewhat similar technique for himself with Game and Clash, writing the novels as a series of interwoven stories each from the point of view of a different major character. comments? Beth -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 14:59:24 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: m Subject: Re: mary shelley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii thanks so much for the mary shelley info...i really appreciate everyone's hlep... mandi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 21:09:50 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lydia Lynsdaughter Subject: more on McCaffrey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I first read the Dragons of Pern series, I was crazy about it, too. Of course, I wanted to impress my own dragon! While re-reading the series, though, a lot of things began to bother me and I've come to think much the same as Jennifer. One point that disturbed me a great deal was F'lar's physical abuse of Lessa. She moans, 'Oh, F'lar will be angry and he'll shake me!' and several times she can't gather her thoughts because F'lar is shaking her so hard. It's presented as a sign of his 'love and deep concern' for her. Where have I heard that before? In fact, I was also disturbed by the physical abuse in her books of children. Children are constantly being beaten or slapped and it's presented as a perfectly normal and acceptable way to deal with children. ------------------------------------------------------ Get the Latest News at CNN Interactive: http://CNN.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 21:52:25 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: George R R Martin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've read the first one, Clash of Kings, and have the second one which I plan to read soon. You're right the first was excellent with strong female characters. Except I didin't like Arya that much. After all, its partly her fault one of the dogs got killed. And she seemed to much of a standard noble female wants to be warrior character to me. I've read too many books with them and their beginning to get on my novels a litte. You don't have to be female warrior to be a strong female character. But Daenyres was extremely well writen. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 22:12:23 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: sorta off topic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Considering that earlier this month there was mentionof the treatment of women in Afganstein, I'm sending a link to the London Times. The oct 2 on-line edition has an artilce about a cartoon pre-teen girl in India who deals with social and femenist issues in that country. Just in case anyone wants to check it out. The Times www.sunday-times.co.uk Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:12:37 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Meether, Mikele" Subject: Re: intro & McCaffrey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Jennifer- Good for you for saying your piece re: McCaffrey! I've been an on again off again fan of hers for years. The Dragon Books were an early introduction to SF and for that I'll always be grateful but I discovered after reading other of her books that outside of Pern (first 6 books) and the crystal singer stories I really couldn't stand her stories -- same basic formula -- blah blah blah..........I also realized that as I got older her writing style was much more annoying (sometimes you just have to love the maturation process!) FYI- I tend to lurk on the list, enjoying from a distance but on this one I had to weigh in :) -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer R. J. [mailto:jenjavar@SUPERIOR.NET] Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 3:07 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] intro & McCaffrey Chris, If it's okay, I'll just answer both of your posts in one. >LEt's see. Well, first off I've only ever read McCaffery's Dragon books, and >_The Colurea_ and I though those books were pretty good. I think part of my McCaffrey problem is that I read way too many of her books. I've sort of burned myself out on her books. >As for Lackney, when she is on, she is great. _THe Black Swan_ is an >excellent book. But at times, her romances between her characters seemed >forced. For Elspeth and the hawk brother (I can't remember his name). I agree about Lackey. I loved the Last Herald Mage and Arrows books, liked the Tarma and Kethry books and By the Sword and thought the rest of the Velgarth series was just okay. I haven't read the last 4 Velgarth books yet though. The only other book of hers that I've read so far is The Ship Who Searched which she co-wrote with Anne McCaffrey. I have a bunch of her books to read yet, but I don't want to get sick of her books too. I'm not sure how I felt about Elspeth's romance. I know I liked Vanyel's, Talia's, and Kethry's a lot more though. >Bradley is excellent as well, just sometimes I wish she didn't make her men, >for the most part, so weak. I've only read two MZB books so far, so I really can't judge her style totally, but I did love both of the books I read and I have a lot more on my to read list. >McKinely, in my opinion, is finely being seen and not overlooked. About >time. I read _The Hero and the Crown_ so much in by 7 grade (i got it in >6th) the cover was falling off. >Chris I love Robin McKinley's books! I've met a lot of McKinley fans online, so maybe you're right and she's gaining some readers. I hope so. I highly recommended her books to my best friend. I first read Hero, The Blue Sword, and Beauty when I was in 7th grade. I just reread Beauty and I will be rereading Hero and The Blue Sword soon. I've forgotten so much about them in the past 13 years. >Would disagree about Lessa, just a little. I was disappointed in her >treatment of Lessa after the first one. But it seemed to be McCaffery lost >interst in her, not that she did anything intersting. I think she lost interest too. It would have been really interesting if she had pursued Lessa's psychic abilities more in later books instead of either tying them in with becoming a dragonrider or forgetting about them in later books. But because she seemed so often to pretty much end a character's main story line once the person fell in love and got married, I see her as doing it to Lessa too because it's so common with her other characters. Like I said, it's a pet peeve of mine that she moves on from one character to another so quickly, but I guess she feels the need to write about young people most of the time. >As for the rape scene, >admitting haven't haven't read that one in awhile, but yes, you're right. >There was a strong feeling of rape. In fact, it is rape. I remember reading >the first time, and wondering "well that doesn't sound very nice". I was 13 >want do you except? >Chris I was 13 also, and I don't even think I really noticed it the first time, but the second time, I got very angry. And it wasn't until a discussion on an online forum that I really realized that F'nor did the same thing to Brekke. Then again, the fact that most blue and green riders were gay went completely over my head when I was 13 too, but when I was 18 or so, I understood it all. I think my growing up had a lot to do with my loss of interest in McCaffrey; also, finding new authors who resonated with me more in some way pushed McCaffrey's books farther from me. Jennifer- finally able to rant about this without fear of being told to shut up because I'm stupid; I know some people may argue with me, but at least I won't be silenced here; and I think I'm done ranting about this now -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 11:46:11 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: George R R Martin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WOW! You sum it all up beautifully! I adore this series---just got the UK edition of Storm of Swords---can't wait! Amy > The second book of Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series, "A Clash of Kings" > has just come out in paperback. Considering the interesting development of > several female characters in the first book, "A Game of Thrones", I was a > little surprised to never see it mentioned here. > > In Game, an empire held by a part human, part dragon dynasty on a > preindustrial planet was overthrown after the death of the last dragon, > creating a field ripe for chaos, intrigue and general mayhem. Many male > characters set themselves up as petty kings, the new emperor, and various > other positions of power, and others plot to oppose and overthrow them. > > Two adult women, Cersei, the queen, and Catelyn, lady of House Stark (a > dynasty with strong ties to a species of extra-large, extra-intelligent > wolf), play leading roles in Game, exerting their power in very different > ways. Two children emerge as strongly developing forces which are further > developed in Clash: Arya Stark, an 8-year-old girl who evades all attempts > to make her the noblewoman she was born to be, learns swordfighting and > eventually survives great peril in the guise of a boy; and Daenerys, one of > the few surviving members of the dragon family, who at 13 is sold in marriage > by her brother but by 15 is a strong political threat to those in power, not > to mention having already shaken the foundations of supernatural practices on > two continents. > > Martin was the editor of the Wild Card Series, a mosaic novel series which > was unique in having a large number of well-developed main characters, each > written by a different author and then blended together. He has used a > somewhat similar technique for himself with Game and Clash, writing the > novels as a series of interwoven stories each from the point of view of a > different major character. > > comments? > > Beth > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 12:30:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Subject: Re: McCaffrey/Scarborough In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Has anyone read the "Powers to Be" trilogy by McCaffrey and Elizabeth Ann Scarborough? I bought it because I like Elizabeth Ann Scarborough's works so much, especially her recent "Lady of the Loch". I have never read anything by McCaffrey. Terri -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:31:40 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Meether, Mikele" Subject: Re: McCaffrey/Scarborough MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I think it is the "Powers that Be" - I made it through the first 2 but came to a dead stop on the third - the story line got very repetitive and lacked originality. I hadn't read Scarborough's work in a long time but was disappointed because I remembered her as having a much better sense of humor and I really felt that McCaffrey was writing by the numbers for a paycheck. of course just my humble thoughts Mikele -----Original Message----- From: Terri [mailto:terriergraphics@CYBERTOURS.COM] Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 12:30 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] McCaffrey/Scarborough Has anyone read the "Powers to Be" trilogy by McCaffrey and Elizabeth Ann Scarborough? I bought it because I like Elizabeth Ann Scarborough's works so much, especially her recent "Lady of the Loch". I have never read anything by McCaffrey. Terri -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 12:56:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: George R R Martin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George also is known for his wonderful short stories (my favorite is "The Ice Dragon") and for being executive producer/head writer on the 1980s tv show "Beauty and the Beast". Marsha Valance Regional Librarian Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells St. Milwaukee, WI 53233 >>> aharlib@WORLDNET.ATT.NET 10/01/00 10:46AM >>> WOW! You sum it all up beautifully! I adore this series---just got the UK edition of Storm of Swords---can't wait! Amy > The second book of Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series, "A Clash of Kings" > has just come out in paperback. Considering the interesting development of > several female characters in the first book, "A Game of Thrones", I was a > little surprised to never see it mentioned here. > > In Game, an empire held by a part human, part dragon dynasty on a > preindustrial planet was overthrown after the death of the last dragon, > creating a field ripe for chaos, intrigue and general mayhem. Many male > characters set themselves up as petty kings, the new emperor, and various > other positions of power, and others plot to oppose and overthrow them. > > Two adult women, Cersei, the queen, and Catelyn, lady of House Stark (a > dynasty with strong ties to a species of extra-large, extra-intelligent > wolf), play leading roles in Game, exerting their power in very different > ways. Two children emerge as strongly developing forces which are further > developed in Clash: Arya Stark, an 8-year-old girl who evades all attempts > to make her the noblewoman she was born to be, learns swordfighting and > eventually survives great peril in the guise of a boy; and Daenerys, one of > the few surviving members of the dragon family, who at 13 is sold in marriage > by her brother but by 15 is a strong political threat to those in power, not > to mention having already shaken the foundations of supernatural practices on > two continents. > > Martin was the editor of the Wild Card Series, a mosaic novel series which > was unique in having a large number of well-developed main characters, each > written by a different author and then blended together. He has used a > somewhat similar technique for himself with Game and Clash, writing the > novels as a series of interwoven stories each from the point of view of a > different major character. > > comments? > > Beth > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:29:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dianne Kraft <103234.3341@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: George R R Martin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii And let me de-lurk for a second -- George is an old friend, and is a great guy. Very sweet, funny, and though I don't think we've discussed it at length, I've always thought of him as a card carrying feminist. I love his new series, though have only read the first one, and some of his earlier stories and novellas were also excellent (A Song for Lya, for example). And to change the subject for a second, has anyone else read Kage Baker? I read a two volume collection of hers, called "On Company Time" and found them delightful. Has she (I assume she's a she?) written other stuff? Dianne Kraft -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:43:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Kage Baker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kage Baker has written 3 "novels of the Company" ¯ _In the Garden of Iden_, _Sky Coyote_, and _Mendoza in Hollywood_. They're all very good. Marsha Valance Regional Librarian Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells St. Milwaukee, WI 53233 >>> 103234.3341@COMPUSERVE.COM 10/02/00 01:29PM >>> And to change the subject for a second, has anyone else read Kage Baker? I read a two volume collection of hers, called "On Company Time" and found them delightful. Has she (I assume she's a she?) written other stuff? Dianne Kraft -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 11:06:06 +1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Rankine Subject: McCaffrey/Scarborough MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C02CBC.F67D29D0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C02CBC.F67D29D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've been interested by the discussion of McCaffrey's work. I first read McCaffrey when I was young, and like many teenagers *loved* the idea of impressing my own dragon. I kept reading because of that, but once I became a feminist I found the treatment of women grated terribly. I stopped reading McCaffrey years ago because the writing became so tired and sentimental (a pet hate). The Pern template was straight out sexist as well as heterosexist, and just so limiting to any feminist plot development. Jane Yolen has a much more egalitarian approach to the humans-impressing-dragons storyline in her *Heart's Blood* and *Dragon's Blood* novels and the *Dragonfield* short stories. The only one I've kept is Dragonsong, which I think is the one about the teenage musician who runs away from home to follow her craft, travelling outside during threadfall (it's at home and I'm at work.) A couple of years ago I picked up (The?) Rowan to see if a new series had re-energised her writing, but it was *lots* worse and I couldn't even get halfway into the book. I enjoyed the first book of the Powers that Be storyline, but couldn't finish the second or third one because they got all sentimental again. It felt like they ran out of things to say after the first book, and just had the goodies + planet battling the environmentally destructive baddies after that. *Very* black and white. A sentient planet is a powerful concept and their characterisation didn't do justice to it. I think Tepper does it *waaay* better in Raising the Stones and the other one about a planet of huge crystal formations where humans have to sing right to travel anywhere (Singer of the Song?). I thought Sassinak and Generation Warriors (McCaffrey and Moon) were good, though, but then I like all Elizabeth Moons' work and the sentimentality was kept in check in those books. Jenny Rankine Aotearoa/New Zealand -----Original Message----- From: Terri [mailto:terriergraphics@CYBERTOURS.COM] Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] McCaffrey/Scarborough Has anyone read the "Powers to Be" trilogy by McCaffrey and Elizabeth Ann Scarborough? I bought it because I like Elizabeth Ann Scarborough's works so much, especially her recent "Lady of the Loch". ------_=_NextPart_001_01C02CBC.F67D29D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [*FSFFU*] McCaffrey/Scarborough

I've been interested by the discussion of McCaffrey's = work.  I first read McCaffrey when I was young, and like many = teenagers *loved* the idea of impressing my own dragon.  I kept = reading because of that, but once I became a feminist I found the = treatment of women grated terribly.  I stopped reading McCaffrey = years ago because the writing became so tired and sentimental (a pet = hate).  The Pern template was straight out sexist as well as = heterosexist, and just so limiting to any feminist plot = development.  Jane Yolen has a much more egalitarian approach to = the humans-impressing-dragons storyline in her *Heart's Blood* and = *Dragon's Blood* novels and the *Dragonfield* short stories.

The only one I've kept is Dragonsong, which I think = is the one about the teenage musician who runs away from home to follow = her craft, travelling outside during threadfall (it's at home and I'm = at work.)  A couple of years ago I picked up (The?) Rowan to see = if a new series had re-energised her writing, but it was *lots* worse = and I couldn't even get halfway into the book.

I enjoyed the first book of the Powers that Be = storyline, but couldn't finish the second or third one because they got = all sentimental again.  It felt like they ran out of things to say = after the first book, and just had the goodies + planet battling the = environmentally destructive baddies after that.  *Very* black and = white.  A sentient planet is a powerful concept and their = characterisation didn't do justice to it.  I think Tepper does it = *waaay* better in Raising the Stones and the other one about a planet = of huge crystal formations where humans have to sing right to travel = anywhere (Singer of the Song?).

I thought Sassinak and Generation Warriors (McCaffrey = and Moon) were good, though, but then I like all Elizabeth Moons' work = and the sentimentality was kept in check in those books.

Jenny Rankine
Aotearoa/New Zealand

-----Original Message-----
From: Terri [mailto:terriergraphics@CY= BERTOURS.COM]
Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] McCaffrey/Scarborough

Has anyone read the "Powers to Be" trilogy = by McCaffrey and
Elizabeth Ann Scarborough? I bought it because I = like Elizabeth Ann
Scarborough's works so much, especially her recent = "Lady of the Loch".

------_=_NextPart_001_01C02CBC.F67D29D0-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 18:27:31 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: McCaffrey/Scarborough MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/2/00 6:12:18 PM, JRankine@HRC.GOVT.NZ writes: << I've been interested by the discussion of McCaffrey's work. >> I've been following it, too. I came to McCaffrey late, after I'd read a lot of other, more recent work, and can understand the frustration with her characters, the plots, the shaky feminist p.o.v. But really - McCaffrey was one of the first women to publish sff, and may be remembered, without guilt, for that. I don't think beating her up serves a purpose. Some of her stuff is wonderful, and I still love The Ship Who Sang with a clear consience. All the hand-wringing in the world will not change the words she wrote. She has a place. If she turns you off, don't read her. There are many on this list who might decry my love of the Honor Harrington series. But so what? My rooting for Honor does not stop me from snuggling up to Charnas's heroines, or relishing James Tiptree, Jr's stuff. This is not to put a stop to the discussion, just a reminder that what's done is done, and look how far we've come... and look how far we have to go. best wishes, phoebe w -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:50:13 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gwen Veazey Subject: Tepper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01C02CB2.5C52B960" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C02CB2.5C52B960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Response for Jenny Rankine, who wrote: Tepper does it *waaay* better in Raising the Stones and the other one = about a planet of huge crystal formations where humans have to sing = right to travel anywhere (Singer of the Song?). That was a great Tepper novel about the planet of crystals - title is = AFTER LONG SILENCE. What an imagination she has. - Gwen V. PS: Phoebe, you are brave to defend McCaffrey! I think I've only read = one of her books, and I was left with vivid, compelling images, but it's = good to expose the sugarcoating of rape and child abuse. Wonder if she = ever had a character who had an abortion and how was that treated? ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C02CB2.5C52B960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Response for Jenny Rankine, who wrote:
 
Tepper does it *waaay* better in Raising the Stones = and the=20 other one about a planet of huge crystal formations where humans have to = sing=20 right to travel anywhere (Singer of the Song?).
 
 
That was a great Tepper novel about the planet = of=20 crystals - title is AFTER LONG SILENCE.  What an = imagination=20 she has.
 
 - Gwen V.
PS:  Phoebe, you are brave to defend = McCaffrey!  I=20 think I've only read one of her books, and I was left with vivid,=20 compelling images, but it's good to expose the sugarcoating of rape = and=20 child abuse.  Wonder if she ever had a character who had an = abortion and=20 how was that treated?
------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C02CB2.5C52B960-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 01:25:53 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: George R R Martin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dianne Kraft wrote: >And to change the subject for a second, has anyone else read Kage Baker? >I read a two volume collection of hers, called "On Company Time" and found >them delightful. Has she (I assume she's a she?) written other stuff? Yep. I've just finished _In the Garden of Iden_, a very entertaining time travel/immortality romp, in which 24th century scientists have embarked on a project to save the lost treasures of the past by going back in time, saving children who would have otherwise been killed without being recorded by history; these children are then trained as scientists, art historians or whatever, and sent on undercover missions to recover lost species/works of art/books before they are destroyed (eg photocopying the entire Library at Alexandria before the fire hits). The heroine, Mendoza, has been rescued from the dungeons of the Spanish Inquisition and trained as a botanist. The story follows her first assignment, to save will-be extinct plants from a novelty garden in England. Lots of great stuff about England under Mary Tudor from a contemporary perspective. In this sense, it reminded me a little of Connie Willis' time travel stories (also highly recommended). It's all great fun, but also has some serious political overtones - for example, the problem of what will happen when the immortals actually reach the 24th century and meet their creators, a world-running corporation called Dr Zeus (love that name), who of course, are only in it for the money, since all those missing treasures of course turn up in Zeus-owned properties. Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 21:39:22 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: McCaffrey/Scarborough MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/2/2000 12:20:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, terriergraphics@CYBERTOURS.COM writes: << bought it because I like Elizabeth Ann Scarborough's works so much, especially her recent "Lady of the Loch". >> Nope, but like Scarborough. Have her Unicorn Creed series, and the lady jounralist as well as "Lady in the Loch". Despertly looking for the Godmother series. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 22:10:50 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: maccaffery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems to me that part of what people are complaining wiht Maccaffery is the fact that her pern books detail a society that subjecates women. But isn't that true for many of the fanasty novels written by women. Look at Darkover novels, some of those deals with a male dominated society, esp some of the Free Amazons novel. Even Lackney does esp with her lands outside of Valdemar. Katherine Kutrz does the same. One could agrue the same is true of _Clash of Kings_. The thing is that all the novelists (with the possible excetption of Kurtz) deal with the women confronting those rules and dealing with them. Even MaCcaffery does this with Menolly. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 02:55:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: McCaffrey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >It seems to me that part of what people are complaining wiht Maccaffery is >the fact that her pern books detail a society that subjecates women. But >isn't that true for many of the fanasty novels written by women. Look at >Darkover novels, some of those deals with a male dominated society, esp some >of the Free Amazons novel. Even Lackney does esp with her lands outside of >Valdemar. Katherine Kutrz does the same. One could agrue the same is true >of _Clash of Kings_. The thing is that all the novelists (with the possible >excetption of Kurtz) deal with the women confronting those rules and dealing >with them. Even MaCcaffery does this with Menolly. >Chris Good point Chris. I guess I see Lackey and MZB as using that type of society to tell us how wrong this is in our own society, while it seems to me that McCaffrey is trying to reinforce traditional values in her books. I see even Menolly as living a pretty traditional life. She does become a harper, balances work and family, and remains famous, and she even helps cause a bit of change because there are other female harpers after her. However, she ends up being second to her husband (although this one isn't as frustrating as Killashandra for example; Robinton already picked his successor before Menolly ever got to the Harper Hall, whereas with Killashandra, it seems like she is passed over as a leader because she is female) has a lot of children, and doesn't get much "screen" time after the two books devoted to her. Most of the mentions of her after The White Dragon involve her doing domestic chores or having children. But I do give McCaffrey credit for writing about Menolly and giving her a chance to live out her dream, and I'll always love Dragonsong and Dragonsinger. One thing I must mention. McCaffrey has taught me a lot about myself and my own writing. Analyzing her stories has lead me to realize that I will never intentionally promote traditional values for female characters, nor will I write about one character only as long as s/he is young, then move on to someone more "interesting" as soon as my other character has grown up. I will also try to give gays and lesbians important roles in my books, but since I'm straight, I'll probably mess some things up (I'm sort of afraid to write minority or homosexual characters because I know someone will be saying, "she has this all wrong" as they read my stories). Jennifer- I think this will be my last post to the list on this matter as I think I've finally distilled the main point I meant to make in my first post -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 09:18:40 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Roxanne Korpal Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001003023807.00b709d0@mail.superior.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Jennifer R. J. wrote: > >It seems to me that part of what people are complaining wiht Maccaffery is > >the fact that her pern books detail a society that subjecates women. But > >isn't that true for many of the fanasty novels written by women. *snip* > >Chris > Good point Chris. I guess I see Lackey and MZB as using that type of > society to tell us how wrong this is in our own society, while it seems to > me that McCaffrey is trying to reinforce traditional values in her > books. I see even Menolly as living a pretty traditional life. *snip* > I > will never intentionally promote traditional values for female characters, > nor will I write about one character only as long as s/he is young, then > move on to someone more "interesting" as soon as my other character has > grown up. *snip* Sigh. I will not get into a debate over this, since I think it's pretty useless. I like reading other people's impressions of books, but I keep foremost in my mind that it's all a matter of personal preference. So even though I love Anne McCaffrey's books and most likely always will, I won't argue too much with what you have to say, Jenn. I'm glad that the dark cloud had a silver lining, so to speak, and you were better able to improve your own writing. My few comments are here: a) 'traditional' is just as valuable an option for any woman as is total equality with men. I know this is the feminist list serve, and I've read feminist "reviews" on McCaffrey before. I applaud the response received that McCaffrey should not be forgotten for the work she began in the "movement" for stronger female characters in fiction books. b) Robinton, Jaxom's guardian Lytol, D'ram and Manora are excellent examples of "mature" characters in her books. I know they're few, but you can't blame the author for her plot lines. You either like it or you don't, and you read accordingly. ;-) (ever read Terry Goodkind? his character Zedd is a lovely example of an older yet strong and important character) Long life to you and good reading. Roxanne http://www.ilstu.edu/~rmkorpa not a feminist www. m-w.com feminism: 1. the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 08:41:44 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001003023807.00b709d0@mail.superior.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/3/00 12:55 AM, Jennifer R. J. at jenjavar@SUPERIOR.NET wrote: >> It seems to me that part of what people are complaining wiht Maccaffery is >> the fact that her pern books detail a society that subjecates women. But >> isn't that true for many of the fanasty novels written by women. Look at >> Darkover novels, some of those deals with a male dominated society, esp some >> of the Free Amazons novel. Even Lackney does esp with her lands outside of >> Valdemar. Katherine Kutrz does the same. One could agrue the same is true >> of _Clash of Kings_. The thing is that all the novelists (with the possible >> excetption of Kurtz) deal with the women confronting those rules and dealing >> with them. Even MaCcaffery does this with Menolly. >> Chris > > Good point Chris. I guess I see Lackey and MZB as using that type of > society to tell us how wrong this is in our own society, while it seems to > me that McCaffrey is trying to reinforce traditional values in her > books. I see even Menolly as living a pretty traditional life. Well put, Jennifer. I totally agree. I know what you mean about not wanting to write about women taking up traditional roles. And it's not that easy to avoid -- at least for me. Those memes are buried deep. In my current novel I struggle with this very issue. Of course, as a woman who opted to marry and have kids, fairly late in life after focusing for a long time on my career, I struggle with this issue of how to avoid all the many straitjacketing baggage that go with doing so....it's not surprising it should appear in my fiction. -- Laura J. Mixon | ljm@digitalnoir.com | www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------------------- PROXIES- Future-noir with a heart of gold (and buns of steel) (Tor, Oct 1999 ISBN 0812523873) http://www.digitalnoir.com/prx -------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 10:19:22 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/3/00 8:18 AM, Roxanne Korpal at rmkorpa@ILSTU.EDU wrote: > a) 'traditional' is just as valuable an option for any woman as is total > equality with men. Roxanna, awp! I have trouble with this statement on several grounds. First of all, by juxtaposing "traditional" with "total equality" as you have, this statement sounds as if you believe any woman would *choose* to be subjugated if she had any other option. I've lived abroad in a culture that was not kind to its women. They may not want to be dictated to by other cultures, but they certainly aren't happy being beaten, forced to bear children whether they're ready to have a child or not, and having the pennies they scrape together to feed their families stolen by their husbands, who use the money to buy booze and sex with prostitutes (and then bring home AIDS and other STDs to infect their wives with). I'm sorry this is NOT a valuable option by anyone's definition, except the unenlightened males who directly benefit from it. Second, what do you mean by "total equality"? What we feminists want for all women everywhere is the right to control their own reproduction and the right to contribute to larger society on their own behalf, rather than simply through the bearing and raising of children. Bearing and raising children is an honorable and necessary profession; I am a mother of small ones myself. But I don't feel I should have had to have children in order to be considered a worthwhile citizen, nor should I have to abdicate my right to continue to grow professionally and contribute to the larger social discourse, simply because I chose to have them. Both of these tenets have been a major component of "traditional" morality, as a means to pressure women into bearing the brunt of the reproductive burden (which for humans is enormous and should rightly be shared by all of society, since all of society benefits when children are born and raised well). I have trouble with the "traditional relationship" mindset in a story or book specifically when it contains unexamined assumptions about the power imbalances common in male-female couples (iow, presents a relationship in which the male is dominant and the female subservient, without any indication that the author finds this anything but acceptable and right), especially when the raising of children enters the picture. McCaffrey has some of these unexamined assumptions in her fiction. She's done some wonderful things with her fiction. I had the same love affair with the early Pern books when I first discovered them that others have described, and The Ship Who Sang. This doesn't exempt her (or any writer) from criticism over her portrayal of male-female relationships, in my book. I have lived abroad and understand the cultural complexities associated with different value systems. I don't believe we can impose our values on other cultures across the board. However, I am an absolutist when it comes to certain basic human rights, including the right for women to have reproductive freedom, as well as to have aid in raising, educating, and maintaining the health of their children. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon | ljm@digitalnoir.com | www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------------------- PROXIES- Future-noir with a heart of gold (and buns of steel) (Tor, Oct 1999 ISBN 0812523873) http://www.digitalnoir.com/prx -------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:10:59 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patricia Monk Subject: Re: McCaffrey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" wrote: > I have trouble with the "traditional relationship" mindset in a story or > book specifically when it contains unexamined assumptions about the power > imbalances common in male-female couples (iow, presents a relationship in > which the male is dominant and the female subservient, without any > indication that the author finds this anything but acceptable and right), > especially when the raising of children enters the picture. McCaffrey has > some of these unexamined assumptions in her fiction. I think we can't assume that because the "traditional relationship mindset" exists in a book that it does so because the author has included "unexamined assumptions" about it. Science fiction is speculative --- it asks "what if ...?" In the Pern books, the "what if" seems to be "what if a highly technological society, in which (as exemplified by the crew of the original ship)equality of social roles between men and women has been achieved, is suddenly thrust back into pretechnological survival conditions?" And the answer seems to be that previous history of the struggle between males and females, based largely on biology, will be repeated. I find McCaffrey's level of social analysis superficial and her answer depressing, but I can't find any evidence that makes me think that she thinks this is the way things _should be_ (science fiction is not prescriptive). -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:29:57 -0500 Reply-To: Joanne Campbell Tidwell Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joanne Campbell Tidwell Subject: McCaffrey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I thought y'all might be interested in what McCaffrey has to say for herself on the topic of feminism. She is emailable from the DelRey website (one of her publishers). She's also commented on feminism in interviews. The "Robin" she speaks of near the end is Robin Roberts, who wrote a critical guide to McCaffrey and has published other books and articles on feminism, sci fi, fantasy, postmodernism, etc. Joanne Campbell Tidwell Graduate Teaching Assistant Auburn University, Alabama Anne McCaffrey: I am not a feminist in the true sense of the word as it was established in the 60's...although the movement had much to intrigue me and certainly affected my generation and the ones that are coming now. I do perceive the changes - even here in Ireland which is still very chauvinistic. However, I was a tomboy as a young girl and had few of the female graces that my peer group had. Late starter or whatever. When I started reading 'real' science fiction (to whit: that was the label on the cover), I got quite annoyed with the way women/females were portrayed in the 50's and 60's. RESTOREE, my first novel, was a send-up of that situation - so that the female in the story actually had useful information the male hero did not and she was the catalyst. There was also a bona fide love-scene so that readers did not doubt what happened between the pair. So much previous s-f had hero and heroine walking off into the sunset, holding hands - which seemed a bit daft even in the 50's and 60's. My mother was a very strong woman, read constantly, tried to write and traveled extensively. My other role model was my Aunt Gladys McElroy, my uncle's wife whose administrative abilities were legend in her community. She turned housekeeping into an art form - which I admired in her but did not emulate. As far as Robin's notion of 'stepping out of the father's house' is concerned - it's possible - though my father was busy off fighting wars, political and martial - and I always rebelled against 'conventional' modes. I never really worry about where my heroines come from - they were interesting people and I wanted to know more about them - they moved within the story I was telling. Sincerely yours, Anne McCaffrey SFWA Authors Guild Ninc -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:03:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Roxanne Korpal Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Heh. Yikes! to prevent major OT, I'll reply singly to Laura. =) Roxy On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Laura J. Mixon-Gould wrote: > Roxanna, awp! I have trouble with this statement on several grounds. er.. what does awp stand for? Here I was thinking I knew everything.. (that was a joke). -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:03:09 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ------------------------------------------------------------ From: Wayne Harde Subject: CFP: Girlpower, FEMSPEC special issue, 01/04/2001 GIRLPOWER---FEMSPEC (Special Issue)---REVISED CALL FOR PAPERS Girl power is power that comes from within. Girl power comes from celebrating femininity in all its complexity. Girl power comes from girls breaking traditional molds and becoming who they want to be, taking control of themselves and extending that control to their environment. Currently media and texts celebrate girl power in varied and innovative ways. This special issue of FEMSPEC focuses on all aspects of girl power in media and texts, and we are calling for critical articles, creative writing, and art by young adults and professionals that address this topic. FEMSPEC is an interdisciplinary feminist journal dedicated to critical and creative works in the realms of sf, fantasy, magical realism, surrealism, myth, folklore, and other supernatural genres. Submissions on all aspects of girl power and speculative fiction are welcome. We are especially interested in submissions that focus on the following: -new developments in animations and television, such as Power Puff Girls, Sailor Moon, Charmed, Kiki's Delivery Service, Barbie and the Sensations - current television shows such as Charmed and Buffy the Vampire Slayer - speculative fiction novels/series of novels and comics featuring girl power - discussions about girls writing and publishing - submissions of writing by girls - girls' websites and home video games - female superheroes, such as Xena and the women in X-Men - anime - art or photographs Submissions should be accompanied by a cover letter, including name, address, and title of the work; submissions should include only the title of the work. Please submit 4 copies. If you are interested in writing a book review, or submitting art or photography, please contact Roxanne Harde at the address below. Deadline: 1 April 2001 Critical/analytical articles: 15 pages, MLA style Creative writing: Short fiction or plays (15 pages) and poetry (3 poems) Book reviews: 500-750 words, MLA style Send 4 copies of each submission to Donna Varga, Child & Youth Study, Mount Saint Vincent University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, B3M 2J6, DONNA.VARGA@MSVU.CA Send 2 copies of each book review to Roxanne Harde, Dept. of English, 411 Watson Hall, Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada K7L 3N6 8rh@qlink.queensu.ca help@mail.h-net.msu.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:15:24 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <39DA1323.2FA2AF23@hfx.eastlink.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/3/00 11:10 AM, Patricia Monk at pmonk@HFX.EASTLINK.CA wrote: > "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" wrote: > >> I have trouble with the "traditional relationship" mindset in a story or >> book specifically when it contains unexamined assumptions about the power >> imbalances common in male-female couples (iow, presents a relationship in >> which the male is dominant and the female subservient, without any >> indication that the author finds this anything but acceptable and right), >> especially when the raising of children enters the picture. McCaffrey has >> some of these unexamined assumptions in her fiction. > > I think we can't assume that because the "traditional > relationship mindset" exists in a book that it does so > because the author has included "unexamined assumptions" > about it. Science fiction is speculative --- it asks "what > if ...?" In the Pern books, the "what if" seems to be "what > if a highly technological society, in which (as exemplified > by the crew of the original ship)equality of social roles > between men and women has been achieved, is suddenly thrust > back into pretechnological survival conditions?" And the > answer seems to be that previous history of the struggle > between males and females, based largely on biology, will be > repeated. I find McCaffrey's level of social analysis > superficial and her answer depressing, but I can't find any > evidence that makes me think that she thinks this is the way > things _should be_ (science fiction is not prescriptive). Hmmm. I think I see a source of possible confusion here. (CAVEAT: I reread the early PERN books numerous times back when, and grew quite familiar with them, but stopped after _Moreta, Dragonrider of Pern_, and it's been quite a while since I last reread them, so I'm speaking at some remove.) (CAVEAT2, and this is directed to Roxanne, who I think make the point: I do take your point that we have to factor in a writer's cultural context, and yes, she is/was a product of her time...) Let me see if I can clarify my argument. When I say "unexamined assumptions" I'm not arguing about the way Ann McCaffrey thinks or doesn't think. I can infer her views if I read enough of her texts (a risky business but arguably possible) (though in fact she herself says, while a tomboy as a child, she is not a feminist), but when I say she has unexamined assumptions built into her stories, I'm referring strictly to what shows up in the text itself. An examination of cultural assumptions (such as the power balance between women and men, especially in child-rearing heterosexual relationships) doesn't have to be extensive. She might simply have included such things as having one of her main characters show ambivalence about how her partner is acting, or to be frustrated or in some way reflect on their own powerlessness, or recognize that by choosing to have a child in this culture she will be drastically limiting her options, even if she decides to go ahead and do so anyway -- there are a zillion different ways for a writer to indicate to the reader that some cultural norm presented in the book is worth pondering. When the author doesn't do that, s/he is taking that cultural value for granted and thus intends for the reader to as well. In McCaffrey's PERN books, she does indeed have strong women characters, but she does not examine the gender-political mores of the culture she creates, with regard to female-male relationships and child-bearing/child-rearing. Thus the text presents but does not examine the issue of gender imbalance. There's a lot to love about her books -- a friend of mine pointed out recently that most of my long works have been strongly influenced by A SHIP WHO SANG (I write a lot about telepresence). But as a reader -- and as a mother of two girls whom I want to grow up understanding the realities relationship power dynamics they can get caught in, instead of just buying wholesale into the Cinderella scenario -- I can't simply overlook what I consider a flaw in books, when they portray a highly uneven power dynamic but the women don't question the way things are and the men are portrayed as completely sympathetic despite their abusive behavior. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon | ljm@digitalnoir.com | www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------------------- PROXIES- Future-noir with a heart of gold (and buns of steel) (Tor, Oct 1999 ISBN 0812523873) http://www.digitalnoir.com/prx -------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:19:48 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <39DA1323.2FA2AF23@hfx.eastlink.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit By the way, 'scuse some of the pronoun glitches in my last post. I was posting on the fly and missed a couple. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:08:01 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <39DA1323.2FA2AF23@hfx.eastlink.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:10 PM 10/3/00 -0300, you wrote: >I think we can't assume that because the "traditional >relationship mindset" exists in a book that it does so >because the author has included "unexamined assumptions" >about it. Science fiction is speculative --- it asks "what >if ...?" In the Pern books, the "what if" seems to be "what >if a highly technological society, in which (as exemplified >by the crew of the original ship)equality of social roles >between men and women has been achieved, is suddenly thrust >back into pretechnological survival conditions?" And the >answer seems to be that previous history of the struggle >between males and females, based largely on biology, will be >repeated. I find McCaffrey's level of social analysis >superficial and her answer depressing, but I can't find any >evidence that makes me think that she thinks this is the way >things _should be_ (science fiction is not prescriptive). But it isn't just McCaffrey's Pern books that present this inequality between the sexes. It's in almost every single one of her books (except for those co-written with other authors, but I've heard that she didn't actually have too much to do with those anyway). No matter what the society is or how technological it is, the women are still subordinate to the men and end up being primarily baby machines. Maybe it's not how she really sees things, but when it keeps reappearing in all of her works, it makes me wonder. I do agree that it is depressing. I think Anne McCaffrey just writes to tell a story and to entertain people and never examines what her books might be saying to people. Considering her own life, I wouldn't think that she would think this is the way things should be because her ex-husband was abusive to her and to their children. She divorced him and made it on her own. Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:37:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: McCaffrey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've often wondered why two of the longest-term women writers in sf seen to have been so hostile to contemporary feminism (McCaffrey and Marion Zimmer Bradley); not everyone need agree with Le Guin nor Russ, but I've never quite understood hostility among intelligent, independent women. -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer R. J. [mailto:jenjavar@SUPERIOR.NET] Maybe it's not how she really sees things, but when it keeps reappearing in all of her works, it makes me wonder. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:52:47 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Please remember that McCaffrey, like a lot of other writers we have problems with, is G.I. Generation. Right now, that's about as remote from anything we know as the Victorian age. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:58:13 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Todd Mason wrote: > I've often wondered why two of the longest-term women writers in sf seen to > have been so hostile to contemporary feminism (McCaffrey and Marion Zimmer > Bradley); not everyone need agree with Le Guin nor Russ, but I've never > quite understood hostility among intelligent, independent women. > And Marion Zimmer Bradley was Silent Generation, somewhat younger than McCaffrey but older than I am, and I'm 61. Their heads were in a period so remote from our own it can only be understood by reading something written in their day. In fact, check out the pilot of Classic Trek and see the "heroine" as opposed to the female officer, who was considered horribly cold! Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:12:14 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: cynthia dunnigan Subject: Re: Tepper In-Reply-To: <003001c02cd3$e4049100$8784cbcf@vistatech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Response for Jenny Rankine, who wrote: Tepper does it *waaay* better >in Raising the Stones and the other one about a planet of huge crystal >formations where humans have to sing right to travel anywhere (Singer of >the Song?). That was a great Tepper novel about the planet of >crystals - title is AFTER LONG SILENCE. What an imagination she has. Hi Just a quick note with a personal observation re: Tepper's "imagination". It seems to me that what she has is not really imagination but rather perspective. What I see in her writing is the casting of current events in a futuristic setting so they seem fantastic but they are really things going on around us. e.g. the bag lady eco-feminist underground army in "Gibbon's Decline and Fall". Cyn Dunnigan -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:15:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: McCaffrey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Fair enough, but Alice Norton or Leigh Brackett or C. L. Moore seem to me, in all ignorance, far less threatened nor angered by the feminist tradition, which of course was embraced by Judith Merril and Virginia Kidd among others, McCaffrey and Bradley's contemporaries and seniors...but there are such counterexamples as Mary McCarthy...and counter-counterexamples such as Woolf and, of course, Friedan. And Roddenberry had his own problems, not that he was alone! -----Original Message----- From: Pat [mailto:mathews@UNM.EDU] And Marion Zimmer Bradley was Silent Generation, somewhat younger than McCaffrey but older than I am, and I'm 61. Their heads were in a period so remote from our own it can only be understood by reading something written in their day. In fact, check out the pilot of Classic Trek and see the "heroine" as opposed to the female officer, who was considered horribly cold! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:19:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joanne Campbell Tidwell Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > An examination of cultural assumptions (such as the power balance between > women and men, especially in child-rearing heterosexual relationships) > doesn't have to be extensive. She might simply have included such things as > having one of her main characters show ambivalence about how her partner is > acting, or to be frustrated or in some way reflect on their own > powerlessness, or recognize that by choosing to have a child in this culture > she will be drastically limiting her options, even if she decides to go > ahead and do so anyway -- there are a zillion different ways for a writer to > indicate to the reader that some cultural norm presented in the book is > worth pondering. When the author doesn't do that, s/he is taking that > cultural value for granted and thus intends for the reader to as well. > > In McCaffrey's PERN books, she does indeed have strong women characters, but > she does not examine the gender-political mores of the culture she creates, > with regard to female-male relationships and child-bearing/child-rearing. > One thing I'd like to point out - and something I found quite refreshing as a young adult - is that while Moreta did have children, she did not bring any of them up. All of her children were fostered, and she was never expected to display those traditional nurturing, mothering attitudes. I agree that McCaffrey does not usually examine or question attitudes in her texts - her stories are more about doing than thinking (which is what at times what makes them a fun read - there's so much theorizing and talking in this world at times that action seems unusual). Menolly does, however, think about the attitudes toward gender roles in Dragonsong, before she runs away from those cultural norms and survives on her own. Joanne Campbell Tidwell -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 00:08:59 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <200010040502.AAA38012@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Roxanne Korpal wrote: > My few comments are here: > > a) 'traditional' is just as valuable an option for any woman as is > total equality with men. I know this is the feminist list serve, and > I've read feminist "reviews" on McCaffrey before. I applaud the > response received that McCaffrey should not be forgotten for the work > she began in the "movement" for stronger female characters in fiction > books. I must disagree on both points here: 1) Other female authors of the era did a much better job of depicting strong female characters the McCaffery (MZB, Norton, & LeGuin being 3 good examples). In many ways, I find McCaffrey's strong female characters to be very similar to Heinlein's allegedly strong female characters. 2) If you mean motherhood and similar traditional female roles, then we have no disagreement (although with the caveat that motherhood honestly shouldn't be encouraged to much, given the world's population problems). However, there is no fundamental conflict between motherhood and complete equality. Also, there is a big difference between someone choosing a way of life they prefer, and having no choice in the matter. As long as anyone (male or female) can choose to be a housekeeper and stay-at- home parent, then there is no problem. The problem comes when one group is expected to do so. If you mean that you think that it is a valuable option for women to be either 2nd class citizens or pampered pets instead of fully equal members of society, then I disagree with you quite deeply and suggest you learn more about the position of women in the past and in various 3rd world nations today. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com Feminist -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 00:08:59 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <200010040502.AAA38012@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Patricia Monk wrote: > "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" wrote: > > > I have trouble with the "traditional relationship" mindset in a > > story or book specifically when it contains unexamined assumptions > > about the power imbalances common in male-female couples (iow, > > presents a relationship in which the male is dominant and the female > > subservient, without any indication that the author finds this > > anything but acceptable and right), especially when the raising of > > children enters the picture. McCaffrey has some of these unexamined > > assumptions in her fiction. > > I think we can't assume that because the "traditional > relationship mindset" exists in a book that it does so > because the author has included "unexamined assumptions" > about it. Science fiction is speculative --- it asks "what > if ...?" In the Pern books, the "what if" seems to be "what > if a highly technological society, in which (as exemplified > by the crew of the original ship)equality of social roles > between men and women has been achieved, is suddenly thrust > back into pretechnological survival conditions?" And the > answer seems to be that previous history of the struggle > between males and females, based largely on biology, will be > repeated. I find McCaffrey's level of social analysis > superficial and her answer depressing, but I can't find any > evidence that makes me think that she thinks this is the way > things _should be_ (science fiction is not prescriptive). Except that women are not merely subservient in her Pern books, they are in *all* of her books, even ones set in high tech societies. Unlike Norton, LeGuin, & MZB (all of whom were writing in the same era), McCaffrey has never written about women transcending the roles assigned to their gender. My guess is that she is not describing how things "should be", but instead feels that male- female relations innately are a certain way. Given that the way she depicts gender roles is typical of 1950s social programming, my best guess is that she bought into that sort of nonsense far more than Norton, LeGuin, or Bradley did. In her books, gender roles do not depend upon the particular society or its level of technology, they are the same in all societies regardless of their level of technology or their history. That indicates to me that she is not thinking about this issue terribly much, and is instead assuming that the standards with which she was raised are in some way innate to humanity. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:28:53 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <200010040707.DAA26804@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:08 AM 4/10/00 -0700, John Snead wrote: >Except that women are not merely subservient in her Pern books, >they are in *all* of her books, even ones set in high tech societies. >Unlike Norton, LeGuin, & MZB (all of whom were writing in the >same era), McCaffrey has never written about women transcending >the roles assigned to their gender. My guess is that she is not >describing how things "should be", but instead feels that male- >female relations innately are a certain way. > >Given that the way she depicts gender roles is typical of 1950s >social programming, my best guess is that she bought into that >sort of nonsense far more than Norton, LeGuin, or Bradley did. In >her books, gender roles do not depend upon the particular society >or its level of technology, they are the same in all societies >regardless of their level of technology or their history. That >indicates to me that she is not thinking about this issue terribly >much, and is instead assuming that the standards with which she >was raised are in some way innate to humanity. True John - all of McCaffrey's 'worlds' have at their heart a 1950s romance of strong independent women who start swooning & turning into jelly when the hero arrives, and then they fade away like a good woman should, living supposedly happily ever after. Reminds me of early Bogie & Bacall, or Kate Hepburn & Spencer Tracy films:) Anyway, I believe both McCaffrey and Zimmer-Bradley are quite honest about not having a feminist bent, from interviews etc I have read. But I agree, I don't think McCaffrey thinks much at all about the issue, the 'formula' sells - to some writers, thats all that matters. She's very popular, & makes a lotta money out of her own brand, or formula, of romantic fiction - although it may be several cuts above Mills & Boon pulp fiction, the formula is much the same. On the positive side though, McCaffrey has obviously introduced a lot of women, particularly young women readers, to an interest in sci-fi as a genre - and her value as a 'springboard' to other, and IMHO, far better women sci-fi writers is one plus in her favour. And besides the 'fall-in-love-with-your-rapist' plot lines, McCaffrey sometimes throws in some good world-building & interesting ideas, and I have to admit to having enjoyed them when I was a teenager, but I don't have any time for her now. Cheers - Julieanne:) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 01:38:38 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: McCaffrey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > And besides the 'fall-in-love-with-your-rapist' plot lines, McCaffrey > sometimes throws in some good world-building & interesting ideas, and I > have to admit to having enjoyed them when I was a teenager, but I don't > have any time for her now. I've read a lot of McCaffrey, and it didn't bother me at all until recently, but at this point, when I read her stuff, it's for those elements that I love; I've completely fallen in love with Fire Lizards, for instance...I've loved them since I first read Dragonsong almost 20 years ago. This is similar to my feelings about David Weber's stuff. I couldn't make it through the third book, after enjoying the first and going slowly through the second. That bothered me, because I absolutely LOVE treecats. Can't get enough of them. Except that slogging through all the war and guns stuff in the novels for the little treecat tidbits just about kills me. I am SO thankful for the short story collections; MUCH better stuff than the "core" series. Too bad there aren't more of the short stories, or maybe even some novels that actually explore relationships and worlds, rather than just the ships and guns and strategy. Anybody willing to tell me if maybe some of Weber's more recent Honor books are less strategy/guns heavy? Now, if Bujold's books just had a _killer_ species like fire lizards or treecats.... :) -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:39:44 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001004192853.00a5cd70@pop.ozemail.com.au> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/4/00 3:28 AM, Julieanne at jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU wrote: I really agree with both Julianne and John. Though her women-in-love elements leave a lot to be desired, and disappoint me, she has had some terrific ideas in her fiction and done lovely world-building, and her writing also has a lot of velocity and tensile spring, and she was an important early influence on me. She'll always have a place in my heart. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon | ljm@digitalnoir.com | www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------------------- PROXIES- Future-noir with a heart of gold (and buns of steel) (Tor, Oct 1999 ISBN 0812523873) http://www.digitalnoir.com/prx -------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:12:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: McCaffrey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > WOW Laura, this is as beautiful an argument in favor of Feminism as any I've ever read! Couldn't have said it batter myself or agree with you more--especially concerning portrayal of women in SF & F of any other fiction. Thanks, Amy (What are you working on now?) > First of all, by juxtaposing "traditional" with "total equality" as you > have, this statement sounds as if you believe any woman would *choose* to be > subjugated if she had any other option. I've lived abroad in a culture that > was not kind to its women. They may not want to be dictated to by other > cultures, but they certainly aren't happy being beaten, forced to bear > children whether they're ready to have a child or not, and having the > pennies they scrape together to feed their families stolen by their > husbands, who use the money to buy booze and sex with prostitutes (and then > bring home AIDS and other STDs to infect their wives with). I'm sorry this > is NOT a valuable option by anyone's definition, except the unenlightened > males who directly benefit from it. > > Second, what do you mean by "total equality"? What we feminists want for > all women everywhere is the right to control their own reproduction and the > right to contribute to larger society on their own behalf, rather than > simply through the bearing and raising of children. Bearing and raising > children is an honorable and necessary profession; I am a mother of small > ones myself. But I don't feel I should have had to have children in order > to be considered a worthwhile citizen, nor should I have to abdicate my > right to continue to grow professionally and contribute to the larger social > discourse, simply because I chose to have them. Both of these tenets have > been a major component of "traditional" morality, as a means to pressure > women into bearing the brunt of the reproductive burden (which for humans is > enormous and should rightly be shared by all of society, since all of > society benefits when children are born and raised well). > > I have trouble with the "traditional relationship" mindset in a story or > book specifically when it contains unexamined assumptions about the power > imbalances common in male-female couples (iow, presents a relationship in > which the male is dominant and the female subservient, without any > indication that the author finds this anything but acceptable and right), > especially when the raising of children enters the picture. McCaffrey has > some of these unexamined assumptions in her fiction. > > She's done some wonderful things with her fiction. I had the same love > affair with the early Pern books when I first discovered them that others > have described, and The Ship Who Sang. This doesn't exempt her (or any > writer) from criticism over her portrayal of male-female relationships, in > my book. > > I have lived abroad and understand the cultural complexities associated with > different value systems. I don't believe we can impose our values on other > cultures across the board. However, I am an absolutist when it comes to > certain basic human rights, including the right for women to have > reproductive freedom, as well as to have aid in raising, educating, and > maintaining the health of their children. > > > > -l. > -- > Laura J. Mixon | ljm@digitalnoir.com | www.digitalnoir.com > -------------------------------------------------------------- > PROXIES- Future-noir with a heart of gold (and buns of steel) > (Tor, Oct 1999 ISBN 0812523873) http://www.digitalnoir.com/prx > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:40:44 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: CFP: Angela Carter (Spain) (11/30; 3/16/01) (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 08:52:51 -0500 From: Brett Cox Reply-To: iafa-l@wiz.cath.vt.edu To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: CFP: Angela Carter (Spain) (11/30; 3/16/01) I thought this might be of interest.--Brett >>From cfp-owner@dept.english.upenn.edu Wed Oct 04 02:56:10 2000 >From: "Pilar Cuder" >To: >Subject: CFP: Angela Carter (Spain) (11/30; 3/16/01) >Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 20:39:12 +0200 >Sender: owner-cfp@dept.english.upenn.edu > > Call For Papers >ANGELA CARTER, 20TH-CENTURY FABULATOR > >A one-day conference at the University of Huelva, Spain > >16 March 2001 > >As the tenth anniversary of Angela Carter's death draws near, we feel it = >is time to give some more thought to this extraordinary writer's role in = >the innovation of late 20th-century literature. Recent studies by = >Linden Peach, Sarah Gamble and Aidan Day among others have tackled some = >of the most relevant issues concerning Carter, but much remains to be = >done. We are therefore inviting proposals for papers on Carter's = >writings, which can offer theoretical insights into her social and = >literary context (post-modernism, post-structuralism, feminism) by = >either covering several of her works, or looking at connections with = >other writers, or tracing intersections with other media (film and = >performance studies in particular). > >Plenary speakers: > >Prof. Pilar Hidalgo (U of Malaga, Spain) > >Prof. Angeles de la Concha (Open University, Madrid, Spain) > >Two-page proposals in English (500 words approximately) should be = >e-mailed to the conference conveners (see below) by 30 November 2000. = >After acceptance, full papers (15-20 pages, double-spaced, MLA format) = >should arrive in hard copy and Microsoft Word file by 31 January 2001. > >Queries and proposals: > >Pilar Cuder (picuder@uhu.es) > >Sonia Villegas (villegas@uhu.es) > >Dept. of English > >Facultad de Humanidades > >Campus del Carmen pab. 11 > >Huelva 21071 Spain > >Fax: 34-959 019 143 > =============================================== > From the Literary Calls for Papers Mailing List > CFP@english.upenn.edu > Full Information at > http://www.english.upenn.edu/CFP/ > or write Erika Lin: elin@english.upenn.edu > =============================================== > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:19:33 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: McCaffrey In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:39 AM 10/4/00 -0600, you wrote: >I really agree with both Julianne and John. >Though her women-in-love elements leave a lot to be desired, and disappoint >me, she has had some terrific ideas in her fiction and done lovely >world-building, and her writing also has a lot of velocity and tensile >spring, and she was an important early influence on me. She'll always have >a place in my heart. >Laura J. Mixon | ljm@digitalnoir.com | www.digitalnoir.com I'll second this. Julianne, John, and Laura all have said it better than I could. I know I've ranted about McCaffrey a lot here, but like Laura says, there is still a place in my heart for her. I still do like some of her books and as long as I forget what happened to the characters later on (mainly Menolly and Tirla), I can look at them as being strong and independent. I too think she has done some great world building. Also, I must thank her (and her son Todd) for writing about Crohn's disease. Anne's daughter has it, so it has made Anne want to bring it to people's attention. I also have Crohn's and it's great to see a fellow Crohn's educator. And I'm pretty sure she contributes some of her earnings to Crohn's research. ; ) Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:06:47 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: McCaffrey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Julieanne wrote: >But I agree, I don't think McCaffrey thinks much at all about the issue, >the 'formula' sells - to some writers, thats all that matters. She's very >popular, & makes a lotta money out of her own brand, or formula, of >romantic fiction - although it may be several cuts above Mills & Boon pulp >fiction, the formula is much the same. On the positive side though, >McCaffrey has obviously introduced a lot of women, particularly young women >readers, to an interest in sci-fi as a genre - and her value as a >'springboard' to other, and IMHO, far better women sci-fi writers is one >plus in her favour. Thought you might like to know I have actually come across plugs for McCaffrey _in_ Mills & Boon novels (yeah, yeah, I read them, but only when in the grip of vile hangovers, really). There's a NZ writer, Robyn Donald, who sparks my interest as a little because she seems to be rather subversively trying to persuade her readers to get into genres other than M&B - her heroines are always reading such things as _Cold Comfort Farm_ and _Dragonflight_. Perhaps we can hope that heaps of romance readers will discover McCaffrey, and then move on to real femininist SF. On the other hand, it seems to confirm Julianne's opinion of McCaffrey's formula, from the other side, as it were. Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:45:33 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Subject: Re: McCaffrey/Scarborough In-Reply-To: <8f.14c514c.270a92ca@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" You're in luck! The Godmother series has been reissued in mass paperback! I've read the first one and loved it! Real down to earth, with a great sense of humor. I thought "Lady in the Loch" completely different, very dark and complex, but also very good. Have you by any chance read The Healer's War? I understand she was a nurse in Viet Nam. Terri > >Nope, but like Scarborough. Have her Unicorn Creed series, and the lady >jounralist as well as "Lady in the Loch". Despertly looking for the >Godmother series. > >Chris > >-------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:34:41 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: McCaffrey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/4/2000 4:25:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jalc@OZEMAIL.COM.AU writes: << Reminds me of early Bogie & Bacall, >> Bocall faded into the background? Must have missed those. Chris (who only sees them on AMC and TCM) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:40:02 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: McCaffrey/Scarborough MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/4/2000 7:02:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, terriergraphics@CYBERTOURS.COM writes: << Have you by any chance read The Healer's War? I understand she was a nurse in Viet Nam. >> Nope, haven't read it. And yes she was. HAve an old interview she did with Starlog magazine somewhere. But thanks for the infro about the godmother series. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 06:03:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julia Lyall Subject: Of feminine roles & Pernese women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read with interest everyone's differing views on women's roles and such. It made my memory wander off on another tangent: can anyone think of instances where the women were disadvantaged by the society they were in but somehow managed to beat the men at their own game, ie outwit an unfair system to their advantage? Several years ago, I watched a Japanese series based on the women's palace in the Shogun period. I think it was called "O-Oku" ( or something like that). It had heaps of intrigue where the women, for all their supposed submission to the men, were actually pulling the strings behind the scenes. I don't feel in many cases that women choose to be the 2nd fiddle, but I like to take heart that for every setback, a strong and resourceful woman can use any resource at hand to defeat the odds. Never give in and never give up! ------------------------------- Beam to http://www.StarTrek.com The official site of the Star Trek universe -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:04:22 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Stephanie Dumoski Subject: Re: Of feminine roles & Pernese women Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about the women in Suzette Hadin Elgin's book _The Mother Tongue_? I very much felt that they "beat the men at their own game" when they develop their own women's language. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 06:06:26 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Of feminine roles & Pernese women In-Reply-To: <001005060303JR.07499@weba6.iname.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/5/00 4:03 AM, Julia Lyall at juliall@STARTREKMAIL.COM wrote: > Several years ago, I watched a Japanese series based on the women's palace in > the Shogun period. I think it was called "O-Oku" ( or something like that). It > had heaps of intrigue where the women, for all their supposed submission to > the men, were actually pulling the strings behind the scenes. I don't feel in > many cases that women choose to be the 2nd fiddle, but I like to take heart > that for every setback, a strong and resourceful woman can use any resource at > hand to defeat the odds. Never give in and never give up! I think you're right that this is an important way in which women take and use power, if they don't have access to direct methods (and I would argue that in a non-hierarchical, egalitarian structure, indirect methods are going to be more the norm, anyway. So even in a nonpatriarchal system, using influence skills and consensus-building methods is probably going to be selected for...but that's a whole nother tangent). It's a strong theme in story and myth in Western culture: our history is rife with women, from Rome and Egypt onward (can't immediately think of Greek examples; there may be some), who have gained power by manipulating the throne or men in other positions of authority. The old saying that behind every successful man stands a good woman is not merely a reference to the fact that the man couldn't have made it without someone behind the scenes making sure all the groundwork was laid and scutwork done; it's also a sly nod to the notion that even today, many a married man in power is strongly influenced by his wife -- and plenty of women, even traditional-values women -- use that relationship to accomplish their own visions of how the world should be. Or simply to wield power for its own sake. In Kenya, in Gikuyu culture the women are profoundly subjugated by their men -- but there is still a powerful undercurrent of matriarchy: the women till the land and bear the children and run the families, and since Kenya is an agricultural country with very strong family- and child-centered core values, the women wield a great deal of informal power. Their oral storytelling and creation myths reflect this. Margaret Sanday (I hope I am spelling her name right) had an excellent book out in the 70s/80s called FEMALE POWER AND MALE DOMINANCE, her doctoral thesis, I believe, which was also a wonderful analysis of how sexual power and politics play out in various cultures, and how this pertains to the cultures' creation myths and stories. How many here have watched the made-for-TV movie "Arabian Nights?" It has some strong female-power elements that would be worth discussing. (Wow! An almost-on-topic comment, even!) -l. -- Laura J. Mixon | ljm@digitalnoir.com | www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------------------- PROXIES- Future-noir with a heart of gold (and buns of steel) (Tor, Oct 1999 ISBN 0812523873) http://www.digitalnoir.com/prx -------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:22:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Roxanne Korpal Subject: Re: Of feminine roles & Pernese women In-Reply-To: <001005060303JR.07499@weba6.iname.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII What an excellent topic for discussion! I am really excited to see what the other members of the list come up with. I think you make a lovely point, contrary to the ideas that have been tossed about here on the list regarding what a "strong woman" or "female leader" can be. cheers! Roxy USA http://www.ilstu.edu/~rmkorpa On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Julia Lyall wrote: > I read with interest everyone's differing views on women's roles and such. It made my memory wander off on another tangent: can anyone think of instances where the women were disadvantaged by the society they were in but somehow managed to beat the men at their own game, ie outwit an unfair system to their advantage? > > Several years ago, I watched a Japanese series based on the women's palace in the Shogun period. I think it was called "O-Oku" ( or something like that). It had heaps of intrigue where the women, for all their supposed submission to the men, were actually pulling the strings behind the scenes. I don't feel in many cases that women choose to be the 2nd fiddle, but I like to take heart that for every setback, a strong and resourceful woman can use any resource at hand to defeat the odds. Never give in and never give up! > > ------------------------------- > Beam to http://www.StarTrek.com > The official site of the Star Trek universe > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:38:12 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Meether, Mikele" Subject: Re: Of feminine roles & Pernese women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I believe that the Darkover novels are an example of this - they are a personal favorite of mine- Darkover is supposed to be a patriarchal society but in many instances women are making the important decisions-- just a thought Mikele -----Original Message----- From: Roxanne Korpal [mailto:rmkorpa@ILSTU.EDU] Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 11:22 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Of feminine roles & Pernese women What an excellent topic for discussion! I am really excited to see what the other members of the list come up with. I think you make a lovely point, contrary to the ideas that have been tossed about here on the list regarding what a "strong woman" or "female leader" can be. cheers! Roxy USA http://www.ilstu.edu/~rmkorpa On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Julia Lyall wrote: > I read with interest everyone's differing views on women's roles and such. It made my memory wander off on another tangent: can anyone think of instances where the women were disadvantaged by the society they were in but somehow managed to beat the men at their own game, ie outwit an unfair system to their advantage? > > Several years ago, I watched a Japanese series based on the women's palace in the Shogun period. I think it was called "O-Oku" ( or something like that). It had heaps of intrigue where the women, for all their supposed submission to the men, were actually pulling the strings behind the scenes. I don't feel in many cases that women choose to be the 2nd fiddle, but I like to take heart that for every setback, a strong and resourceful woman can use any resource at hand to defeat the odds. Never give in and never give up! > > ------------------------------- > Beam to http://www.StarTrek.com > The official site of the Star Trek universe > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:43:23 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Of feminine roles & Pernese women In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/5/00 9:22 AM, Roxanne Korpal at rmkorpa@ILSTU.EDU wrote: > What an excellent topic for discussion! I am really excited to see what > the other members of the list come up with. I think you make a lovely > point, contrary to the ideas that have been tossed about here on the > list regarding what a "strong woman" or "female leader" can be. Roxanne, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon | ljm@digitalnoir.com | www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------------------- PROXIES- Future-noir with a heart of gold (and buns of steel) (Tor, Oct 1999 ISBN 0812523873) http://www.digitalnoir.com/prx -------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:18:43 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Of feminine roles & Pernese women In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:06 AM 10/5/00 -0600, you wrote: >In Kenya, in Gikuyu culture the women are profoundly subjugated by their men >-- but there is still a powerful undercurrent of matriarchy: the women till >the land and bear the children and run the families, and since Kenya is an >agricultural country with very strong family- and child-centered core >values, the women wield a great deal of informal power. Their oral >storytelling and creation myths reflect this. >Laura J. Mixon | ljm@digitalnoir.com | www.digitalnoir.com This reminds me of a book about Italy that I read for a college class. Although the society may appear to be patriarchal, the home, food, and children are very important, so women have a very important role in the culture. I believe it even said that in Italian homes, men and women treat each other as equals and their children view them that way- but that each has different functions in a child's life. I don't remember when the book was written, but I'm pretty sure it was old. I wonder how much things have changed there, so I'll research it sometime. Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:37:46 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: Of feminine roles & Pernese women In-Reply-To: <001005060303JR.07499@weba6.iname.net> from "Julia Lyall" at Oct 05, 2000 06:03:03 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julia Lyall writes: > >I read with interest everyone's differing views on women's roles and >such. It made my memory wander off on another tangent: can anyone think >of instances where the women were disadvantaged by the society they were >in but somehow managed to beat the men at their own game, ie outwit an >unfair system to their advantage? You mentioned how the women in Shogunate Japan were able to find power behind the scenes. From what I can tell, this is still true in modern Japan. Women are still heavily pressured by society to marry and have children, but once they do so they often have complete control over the household. They control all the money their husband brings in, and they make all the decisions about how their children are raised. It certainly seems like a sort of power to me; the stress must be enormous, but OTOH the 'salarymen' don't have it much better. I find it somewhat comparable to the women's sphere/men's sphere thing from Ancient Greece, which gave men and women power in different areas, and woe betide a man who usurped a woman's duties, or vice-versa! 'Separate but equal' may be inherently unequal, but it's a nice change from the societies in which women do nothing but breed and then hand off the kid. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 21:47:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lydia Lynsdaughter Subject: Of feminine roles & Pernese women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Julia Lyall wrote: > I read with interest everyone's differing views on women's > roles and such. It made my memory wander off on another > tangent: can anyone think of instances where the women > were disadvantaged by the society they were in but somehow > managed to beat the men at their own game, ie outwit an > unfair system to their advantage? So far this topic has elicited comments on Japan and Italy, so I guess I won't be too out of line ;o) to recommend some historic fiction, for those of you would like to try something a little different, but it's definitely feminist historic fiction! The book is "The Beacon at Alexandria" by Gillian Bradshaw. The main character outwits an unfair system (4th century Rome) to her own advantage! The blurb on the cover is a little annoying, saying she finds her destiny "also to be a woman and wife", I would rephrase it, "she falls in love with a man from a different cultural background, one that has a tradition of strong, powerful women" and doesn't have to give up her dreams. ------------------------------------------------------ Get the Latest News at CNN Interactive: http://CNN.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 21:57:16 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Of feminine roles & Pernese women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/5/2000 6:03:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, juliall@STARTREKMAIL.COM writes: << women were disadvantaged by the society they were in but somehow managed to beat the men at their own game, ie outwit an unfair system to their advantage? >> Some of the earlier Xanth books, particularly _Dragon on a Pedstal_ do that. But not any later then Isle of View. I can think of some of the short fiction by Lousia May Alcott but that's fanasty. How about the character in _Clash of Kings_? I can't remeber her name, but she is married off into the horse clans, and she hatches the dragons at the end. Slightly off topic, but I've been watching the 15 days of Bond on TBS. And I'm sitting here with Live and Let Down on. Speaking of rape. Does anyone else thinking James treated Jane SEymour's character awfully in that seducation scene. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:11:57 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: le guin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Artilce on le Guin at www.bookmagazine.com/index.html. Will be up til the end of oct. Book Magazine -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.