From LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu Fri Jan 26 13:39:54 2001 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:58:48 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0004C" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 19:28:50 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Angela Barclay Subject: Intro. & Request Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear FSF Listserve Members: As may be evident, I recently made virtually the same post to the FSF-Lit group. When there was a resurgence of discussion on this list I decided to also introduce myself to and request feedback from you in case there are some members who belong only to this list. I signed onto the *FSF-Lit* and *FSF* Listserves in mid October, 1999 and have since enjoyed being exposed to new writers and ideas and your rich and diverse discussion. In addition to wanting to join the discussion, my hope is to study the creation of and dynamics in your virtual community for my Masters in Communications final project, which is much like a Thesis. I will complete this project next April. I now have the approval of the List-mistress, the book discussion coordinator and the University of Calgary Ethics Board. I also hope to use my observations of the FSF-Lit and general discussion groups in a presentation I will be giving at the Canadian Communications Association Conference on May 28, 2000. (For more about the CCA see: www.arts.mcgill.ca/gpc/cca/cpf200.html) My research questions are: 1. What prompts members to join this group? (What prompted you to join and stay? Describe your history with and participation in the group, if you choose.) 2. Are there barriers to joining and participating in this group? 3. How do members of this female-friendly virtual book discussion group benefit personally and/or professionally? 4. Are there benefits (to yourself . . . other members and agencies . . . society as a whole) that extend beyond the boundaries of the discussion group? Please explain. 5. What constitutes a ³virtual community² and can this group be classified as such? Due to the scholarly nature of the debate I believe it will be important to strive for a balance between keeping your answers to these questions and your comments on the books you¹ve selected anonymous and giving credit for your writing or ^Ìintellectual property¹. Do you wish to remain annonymous or to be quoted? A bit about me: I have been a junior high school teacher for over ten years and while I love teaching and love the kids I want to ^Ìgraduate¹ to teaching at a higher level. After completing my Masters in Communications I hope to go on and do a PhD and ultimately teach about literature, culture and communications. When I¹m not teaching or researching I can likely be found lounging about with two terribly naughty cats and a book. Some of my favorite authors include Angela Carter, Tanith Lee, Ursula Le Guin and Sherri S. Tepper. Please email me with your answers to the above questions and/or comments or suggestions about the study. Sincerely, Angela Barclay Masters in Communications (MCS) Student University of Calgary Calgary, Alberta barclaya@telusplanet.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:46:08 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joanie Bassler Subject: Thanks about Syllabi & Wiscon24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to thank everyone for their help regarding ideas for a FSFF syllabi and for the info. on WisCon 24. I'm new to this field of study and this list is giving me oodles of ideas and leads to follow. Thanks Again, joanie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:08:03 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: GUNES Evrim Didem Subject: Re: Intro. & Request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BFA7BD.C9FE7ABE" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFA7BD.C9FE7ABE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello, I wish you the best with your studies. To be honest,I wasn't intending to reply at the beginning(because I'm not a typical member, and haven't been participating in discussions), but I changed my mind when I saw that you like Ursula Le Guin as well, who is one of my favorites too! (And I discovered the list while I was looking for something about Ursula Le Guin on the net!) so, below are my answers, hope you can use them: 1-I think willingness to discuss and chat with people having same interests is a reason. Also, sharing the knowledge, and having access to feminist literature is facilitated with this list, which also helps for the ones who are professionally interested in feminist literature (I think most participants are studying literature, or dealing with it in some other way). For my case, it was just because I'm a fan of Ursula Le Guin, and came across this list on the net while surfing sites about here. It was late 1999, I don't remember exactly. Then I thought it would be fun if there were discussions about this kind of literature, and decided to subscribe. I haven't been participating to the discussions until now. Mostly the subjects were very specific, whichI don't have any knowledge about (I studied engineering, and now doing PhD in business). But I enjoy watching the discussions... 2-I don't hink there are any barriers... 3-There are many benefits, people ask about resources, and ideas of the others for the topics they are working on. Personally, I enjoy learning about literature... 4-So far I'm not sure. For mysely, definitely there are benefits, it enlarges my view of the world and society,like thelast discussions on transsexuality. As long as there are discussions on more general subjects there would be benefits to cosiety, if peples' minds were changed by these discussions. But this question is not easy to answer. 5-I think when the list is alive, meaning there are discussions going on, it is a virtual community. But the feeling of being in a community is enhanced by joining the discussions, I believe. And also the continuity is important, then people get to know each other, and really behave like a community. From other lists that I follow, I observe quarrels, jokes, smaller grups which support each other etc. ecaxtly showing beahvior of acommunity. In this list, I haven't recognized it that much, but I must say I'm new. That's all! I hope it will be helpful, and good luck with your project... sincerely, Evrim Didem Gunes PhD Student in Operations Management INSEAD Bvd. de Constance 77300 Fontainebleau, France Evrim.Didem.Gunes@insead.fr -----Original Message----- From: Angela Barclay [mailto:barclaya@TELUSPLANET.NET] Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 9:29 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] Intro. & Request Dear FSF Listserve Members: As may be evident, I recently made virtually the same post to the FSF-Lit group. When there was a resurgence of discussion on this list I decided to also introduce myself to and request feedback from you in case there are some members who belong only to this list. I signed onto the *FSF-Lit* and *FSF* Listserves in mid October, 1999 and have since enjoyed being exposed to new writers and ideas and your rich and diverse discussion. In addition to wanting to join the discussion, my hope is to study the creation of and dynamics in your virtual community for my Masters in Communications final project, which is much like a Thesis. I will complete this project next April. I now have the approval of the List-mistress, the book discussion coordinator and the University of Calgary Ethics Board. I also hope to use my observations of the FSF-Lit and general discussion groups in a presentation I will be giving at the Canadian Communications Association Conference on May 28, 2000. (For more about the CCA see: www.arts.mcgill.ca/gpc/cca/cpf200.html) My research questions are: 1. What prompts members to join this group? (What prompted you to join and stay? Describe your history with and participation in the group, if you choose.) 2. Are there barriers to joining and participating in this group? 3. How do members of this female-friendly virtual book discussion group benefit personally and/or professionally? 4. Are there benefits (to yourself . . . other members and agencies . . . society as a whole) that extend beyond the boundaries of the discussion group? Please explain. 5. What constitutes a ³virtual community² and can this group be classified as such? Due to the scholarly nature of the debate I believe it will be important to strive for a balance between keeping your answers to these questions and your comments on the books you¹ve selected anonymous and giving credit for your writing or OEintellectual property¹. Do you wish to remain annonymous or to be quoted? A bit about me: I have been a junior high school teacher for over ten years and while I love teaching and love the kids I want to OEgraduate¹ to teaching at a higher level. After completing my Masters in Communications I hope to go on and do a PhD and ultimately teach about literature, culture and communications. When I¹m not teaching or researching I can likely be found lounging about with two terribly naughty cats and a book. Some of my favorite authors include Angela Carter, Tanith Lee, Ursula Le Guin and Sherri S. Tepper. Please email me with your answers to the above questions and/or comments or suggestions about the study. Sincerely, Angela Barclay Masters in Communications (MCS) Student University of Calgary Calgary, Alberta barclaya@telusplanet.net ------_=_NextPart_001_01BFA7BD.C9FE7ABE Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [*FSFFU*] Intro. & Request

Hello,
I wish you the best with your studies. To be = honest,I wasn't intending to reply at the beginning(because I'm not a = typical member, and haven't been participating in discussions), but I = changed my mind when I saw that you like Ursula Le Guin as well, who is = one of my favorites too! (And I discovered the list while I was looking = for something about Ursula Le Guin on the net!) so, below are my = answers, hope you can use them:

1-I think willingness to discuss and chat with people = having same interests is a reason. Also, sharing the knowledge, and = having access to feminist literature is facilitated with this list, = which also helps for the ones who are professionally interested in = feminist literature (I think most participants are studying literature, = or dealing with it in some other way). For my case, it was just because = I'm a fan of Ursula Le Guin, and came across this list on the net while = surfing sites about here. It was late 1999, I don't remember exactly. = Then I thought it would be fun if there were discussions about this = kind of literature, and decided to subscribe.

I haven't been participating to the discussions until = now. Mostly the subjects were very specific, whichI don't have any = knowledge about (I studied engineering, and now doing PhD in business). = But I enjoy watching the discussions...

2-I don't hink there are any barriers...

3-There are many benefits, people ask about = resources, and ideas of the others for the topics they are working on. = Personally, I enjoy learning about literature...

4-So far I'm not sure. For mysely, definitely there = are benefits, it enlarges my view of the world and society,like thelast = discussions on transsexuality. As long as there are discussions on more = general subjects there would be benefits to cosiety, if peples' minds = were changed by these discussions. But this question is not easy to = answer.

5-I think when the list is alive, meaning there are = discussions going on, it is a virtual community. But the feeling of = being in a community is enhanced by joining the discussions, I believe. = And also the continuity is important, then people get to know each = other, and really behave like a community. From other lists that I = follow, I observe quarrels, jokes, smaller grups which support each = other etc. ecaxtly showing beahvior of acommunity. In this list, I = haven't recognized it that much, but I must say I'm new.

That's all! I hope it will be helpful, and good luck = with your project...

sincerely,

Evrim Didem Gunes
PhD Student in Operations Management
INSEAD
Bvd. de Constance
77300 Fontainebleau, France    =
Evrim.Didem.Gunes@insead.fr

-----Original Message-----
From: Angela Barclay [mailto:barclaya@TELUSPLANET.NET= ]
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 9:29 PM
To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU
Subject: [*FSFFU*] Intro. & Request


Dear FSF Listserve Members:

As may be evident, I recently made virtually the same = post to the FSF-Lit
group.  When there was a resurgence of = discussion on this list I decided to
also introduce myself to and request feedback from = you in case there are
some members who belong only to this list.

I signed onto the *FSF-Lit*  and *FSF* = Listserves in mid October, 1999 and
have since
enjoyed being exposed to new writers and ideas and = your rich and diverse
discussion.

In addition to wanting to join the discussion, my = hope is to study the
creation of and dynamics in your virtual community = for my Masters in
Communications final project, which is much like a = Thesis.  I will complete
this
project next April. I now have the approval of the = List-mistress, the book
discussion
coordinator and the University of Calgary Ethics = Board.

I also hope to use my observations of the FSF-Lit and = general discussion
groups
in a presentation I will be giving at the Canadian = Communications
Association Conference
on May 28, 2000.  (For more about the CCA = see:
www.arts.mcgill.ca/gpc/cca/cpf200.html)

My research questions are:
1.  What prompts members to join this = group?  (What prompted you to join and
stay?  Describe your history with and = participation in the group, if you
choose.)
2.  Are there barriers to joining and = participating in this group?
3.  How do members of this female-friendly = virtual book discussion group
benefit personally and/or professionally?
4.  Are there benefits (to yourself . . . other = members and agencies . . .
society as a whole) that extend beyond the = boundaries of the discussion
group?  Please explain.
5.  What constitutes a =B3virtual community=B2 = and can this group be classified
as such?

Due to the scholarly nature of the debate I believe = it will be important to
strive for a balance between keeping your answers to = these questions and
your comments on the books you=B9ve selected = anonymous and giving credit for
your writing or OEintellectual property=B9.  Do = you wish to remain annonymous
or to be quoted?

A bit about me:
I have been a junior high school teacher for over = ten years and while I love
teaching and love the kids I want to OEgraduate=B9 = to teaching at a higher
level.  After completing my Masters in = Communications I hope to go on and do
a PhD and ultimately teach  about literature, = culture and communications.
When I=B9m not teaching or researching I can likely = be found lounging about
with two terribly naughty cats and a book.  = Some of my favorite authors
include Angela Carter, Tanith Lee, Ursula Le Guin = and Sherri S. Tepper.

Please email me with your answers to the above = questions and/or comments or
suggestions about the study.

Sincerely,
Angela Barclay
Masters in Communications (MCS) Student
University of Calgary
Calgary, Alberta
barclaya@telusplanet.net

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFA7BD.C9FE7ABE-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:33:56 +0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: Intro. & Request Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Evrim: Thanks for replying to my survey. It was exciting to hear from someone who lives so far away and who is also caught up with the turmoil of (post) graduate studies. I liked what you had to say about the discussion needing to be alive for an electronic group to be classified as a community. Thanks for your well-wishes about my study. I wish you the best with yours too. (At this point a PhD seems terribly overwhelming!) Happy reading, Angela ---------- From: GUNES Evrim Didem To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Intro. & Request Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000, 4:08 PM ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:17:13 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0089_01BFA7BF.3957A2E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0089_01BFA7BF.3957A2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone remember a list thread long time ago about the defining of = Feminist Science Fiction to include or not include male authors? I am = gathering my materials for research, beginning with the defining of = terms for the lay reader. If anyone recalls a thread in the archives I = would very much appreciate it. Even general references to defining the = terms used in the field would be very helpful. Thank you in advance. Jo Ann Rangel ------=_NextPart_000_0089_01BFA7BF.3957A2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone remember a list = thread long=20 time ago about the defining of Feminist Science Fiction to include or = not=20 include male authors?  I am gathering my materials for research, = beginning=20 with the defining of terms for the lay reader.  If anyone recalls a = thread=20 in the archives I would very much appreciate it.  Even general = references=20 to defining the terms used in the field would be very helpful. Thank you = in=20 advance.
 
Jo Ann Rangel
------=_NextPart_000_0089_01BFA7BF.3957A2E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:41:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Research inquiry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D3_01BFA7DB.D3B823C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01BFA7DB.D3B823C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My apologies I somehow deleted the subject line. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jo Ann Rangel=20 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU=20 Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 4:17 PM Subject: [*FSFFU*] Does anyone remember a list thread long time ago about the defining of = Feminist Science Fiction to include or not include male authors? I am = gathering my materials for research, beginning with the defining of = terms for the lay reader. If anyone recalls a thread in the archives I = would very much appreciate it. Even general references to defining the = terms used in the field would be very helpful. Thank you in advance. Jo Ann Rangel ------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01BFA7DB.D3B823C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My apologies I somehow deleted the subject line. 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jo Ann=20 Rangel
To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU =
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 = 4:17=20 PM
Subject: [*FSFFU*]

Does anyone remember a list thread long time ago about = the=20 defining of Feminist Science Fiction to include or not include male=20 authors?  I am gathering my materials for research, beginning = with the=20 defining of terms for the lay reader.  If anyone recalls a thread = in the=20 archives I would very much appreciate it.  Even general = references to=20 defining the terms used in the field would be very helpful. Thank you = in=20 advance.

Jo Ann Rangel


------=_NextPart_000_00D3_01BFA7DB.D3B823C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:06:03 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Research inquiry In-Reply-To: <00d601bfa816$80e98e00$660df4d8@w95s> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 16 Apr 00, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: "Does anyone remember a list thread long time ago about the defining of Feminist Science Fiction to include or not include male authors? I am gathering my materials for research, beginning with the defining of terms for the lay reader. If anyone recalls a thread in the archives I would very much appreciate it. Even general references to defining the terms used in the field would be very helpful. Thank you in advance." At the moment I cannot recall a discussion on whether male authors write feminist sf. The most extensive discussion on what constitutes feminist sf I remember is that during the BDG discussion on _Alien Influences_. Perhaps that topic cropped up then. You are a bit out of luck because as far as I know at the end of March the listserv archive was deleted for messages older than one year. However, you can still try to find in last year's postings a respective thread by sending search feministsf keyword1 keyword2 ... to the listserv! (not to the list), i.e. to without anything in the subject line. It also works for the feministsf-lit list. I've always found this feature very handy. Good luck. By the way, what do you think on this issue? I remember when I've read the first German Ph.D. thesis on feminist sf, how baffled I was that the author completely ruled out that men can write feminist sf (or feminist literature). I think the probability is much lower that they do but not that it cannot happen. My 2 cents. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:37:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Archives (was Re: [*FSFFU*] Research inquiry In-Reply-To: <200004181206.OAA10396@cserv.usf.uni-kassel.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > You are a bit out of luck because as far as I know at the > end of March the listserv archive was deleted for > messages older than one year. There are web archives available, going back to the beginning. See http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/index.html and http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsf/ and http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsflit/ for more information. ----- There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. --Douglas Adams Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ chris@bsinc.net AIM:ChrisShaff ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:18:25 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pike Publishing Subject: Re: Research inquiry, men as feminist authors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > By the way, what do you think on this issue? I > remember > when I've read the first German Ph.D. thesis on > feminist > sf, how baffled I was that the author completely > ruled out > that men can write feminist sf (or feminist > literature). I > think the probability is much lower that they do > but not that > it cannot happen. My 2 cents. > If a male author writes a story with a strong, independent, intelligent, capable woman as the lead character, does that not qualify him as a feminist author? Walker Chandler, for example, wrote Evangeline Weathers as a human being fully endowed with all the strength and character of the more common male hero to be found in fiction. Is he not a feminist author? If not, is "feminist" being defined more narrowly and in a perhaps propagandistic sense? Walker did not set out to write a tract; he did not intend to lecture or polemicize. Yet he has written a book, "The Evangeline Manuscript," that I think *must* considered a feminist science fiction novel. Walker did not preach; he just presented an admirable, strong character who is female. I'd like to know others' definitions of "feminist," and whether "The Evangeline Manuscript" should or should not be considered feminist. Thank you. Michael Morrison http://www.pikepublishing.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:19:52 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Archives (was Re: [*FSFFU*] Research inquiry In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000418083609.00bf67f0@tigger.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On 18 Apr 00, Chris Shaffer wrote in response to an email of me: > > You are a bit out of luck because as far as I know at the > > end of March the listserv archive was deleted for > > messages older than one year. > > There are web archives available, going back to the beginning. See > http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/index.html and > http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsf/ and > http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsflit/ for more information. Yes. And I am thankful that the past postings are preserved. However, these archives are good to read through past discussions as a whole but not very convenient to search for a specific topic. For example, if I liked to know if and how the next BDG book (Jewelle Gomez' _The Gilda Stories_) has been discussed on the list, I would formerly have sent a search request to the listserv, received a list of the respective postings and requested these from the listserv. All done within perhaps 10 minutes. But it's impossible to search the archives on the website in that way. Or do I overlook something? Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:00:10 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Misha Bernard Subject: Re: Research inquiry, men as feminist authors In-Reply-To: <20000418151825.5536.qmail@web215.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, it DOES depend on how feminist is defined. Personally, I wouldn't say that men (either because of biology or culture) could not write feminist SF. Rather I would say that most men don't. Then, again, that relies on my definition of what feminist SF would be. Below, strong female characters, who are fully 'human beings' are used as a indication that an author (male) is feminist. Is this all that is required to be feminist, or is it necessary to deal with issues that are usually linked with women? (Perhaps this is what is meant by 'propagandistic'?) I would say that, due to history, strong female _human_ characters are often absent, and a good work DOES include them, but this would not be the only judgement on whether the work is feminist. I guess I come from a perspective where groups of Others (nonwhite, nonmale, nonhet, etc) are expected in some ways to conform to a position that in no necessarily (and I don't mean to imply essentially) of their own devising. So if women characters are strong (defined in a way that male characters have been), is the work feminist? I don't know. Is women's writing the same as men's writing? Is this part of being feminist? I don't know. I hope for a good discussion =) misha On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Pike Publishing wrote: > --- Petra Mayerhofer > wrote: > > By the way, what do you think on this issue? I > > remember > > when I've read the first German Ph.D. thesis on > > feminist > > sf, how baffled I was that the author completely > > ruled out > > that men can write feminist sf (or feminist > > literature). I > > think the probability is much lower that they do > > but not that > > it cannot happen. My 2 cents. > > > If a male author writes a story with a strong, > independent, intelligent, capable woman as the lead > character, does that not qualify him as a feminist > author? > Walker Chandler, for example, wrote Evangeline > Weathers as a human being fully endowed with all the > strength and character of the more common male hero to > be found in fiction. Is he not a feminist author? > If not, is "feminist" being defined more narrowly and > in a perhaps propagandistic sense? > Walker did not set out to write a tract; he did not > intend to lecture or polemicize. > Yet he has written a book, "The Evangeline > Manuscript," that I think *must* considered a feminist > science fiction novel. > Walker did not preach; he just presented an admirable, > strong character who is female. > I'd like to know others' definitions of "feminist," > and whether "The Evangeline Manuscript" should or > should not be considered feminist. > Thank you. > Michael Morrison > http://www.pikepublishing.org > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. > http://invites.yahoo.com > Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:17:50 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: research inquiry; men as feminists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0184_01BFA949.42C6E120" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0184_01BFA949.42C6E120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just a side note, I had the opportunity to present my summer research project at NCUR, National Conference of Undergraduate Research, in april 1999. I presented the topic of an introduction to Feminist Science = Fiction via Octavia Butler's "Parable of the Sower." What had me thinking of definitions was the question and answer opportunity after my = presentation. I received a lot of introductory-like questions from many students who = had never heard of the field before, and one man who asked me why bring up = the differences as all Feminist Sci-Fi is would be replacing the male hero = of a work with a female heroine...after explaining a few basic complexities = of my research, the thought I kept coming back to was, like the broader term Science Fiction, Feminist Science Fiction encompasses a lot of threads = that distinguish it under its own banner. The thing I want to be careful of, = is as I go about defining terms for the lay reader, I do not want to = truncate the scope of the field to those who know this subject can become rather complicated, as we are still debating many of the more intricate terms = of the genre. After brainstorming a small outline into categories of what it is I want = to write about, I discovered the first and very important part of a text is defining terms. This is what led me to begin my research. For = background information I am referring to Feminist Theory texts to look at the many = many perespectives as to what people think feminist is...and my stack of photocopy paper grows and grows hehe Jo Ann who appreciates everyone's input on this topic 8) ------=_NextPart_000_0184_01BFA949.42C6E120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just a side note, I had the = opportunity=20 to present my summer research
project at NCUR, National Conference of = Undergraduate Research, in april
1999. I presented the topic of an=20 introduction to Feminist Science Fiction
via Octavia Butler's = "Parable of the=20 Sower."  What had me thinking of
definitions was the question = and answer=20 opportunity after my presentation.
I received a lot of = introductory-like=20 questions from many students who had
never heard of the field before, = and one=20 man who asked me why bring up the
differences as all Feminist Sci-Fi = is would=20 be replacing the male hero of a
work with a female heroine...after = explaining=20 a few basic complexities of my
research, the thought I kept coming = back to=20 was, like the broader term
Science Fiction, Feminist Science Fiction=20 encompasses a lot of threads that
distinguish it under its own = banner. =20 The thing I want to be careful of, is
as I go about defining terms = for the=20 lay reader, I do not want to truncate
the scope of the field to those = who=20 know this subject can become rather
complicated, as we are still = debating=20 many of the more intricate terms of
the genre.

After = brainstorming a=20 small outline into categories of what it is I want to
write about, I=20 discovered the first and very important part of a text is
defining=20 terms.  This is what led me to begin my research.  For=20 background
information I am referring to Feminist Theory texts to = look at the=20 many many
perespectives as to what people think feminist is...and my = stack=20 of
photocopy paper grows and grows hehe

Jo Ann
who = appreciates=20 everyone's input on this topic 8)
------=_NextPart_000_0184_01BFA949.42C6E120-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:33:52 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Research inquiry, men as feminist authors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a side note, I had the opportunity to present my summer research project at NCUR, National Conference of Undergraduate Research, in april 1999. I presented the topic of an introduction to Feminist Science Fiction via Octavia Butler's "Parable of the Sower." What had me thinking of definitions was the question and answer opportunity after my presentation. I received a lot of introductory-like questions from many students who had never heard of the field before, and one man who asked me why bring up the differences as all Feminist Sci-Fi is would be replacing the male hero of a work with a female heroine...after explaining a few basic complexities of my research, the thought I kept coming back to was, like the broader term Science Fiction, Feminist Science Fiction encompasses a lot of threads that distinguish it under its own banner. The thing I want to be careful of, is as I go about defining terms for the lay reader, I do not want to truncate the scope of the field to those who know this subject can become rather complicated, as we are still debating many of the more intricate terms of the genre. After brainstorming a small outline into categories of what it is I want to write about, I discovered the first and very important part of a text is defining terms. This is what led me to begin my research. For background information I am referring to Feminist Theory texts to look at the many many perespectives as to what people think feminist is...and my stack of photocopy paper grows and grows hehe Jo Ann who appreciates everyone's input on this topic 8) ----- Original Message ----- From: Misha Bernard To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Research inquiry, men as feminist authors > Well, it DOES depend on how feminist is defined. Personally, I wouldn't > say that men (either because of biology or culture) could not write > feminist SF. Rather I would say that most men don't. Then, again, that > relies on my definition of what feminist SF would be. > Below, strong female characters, who are fully 'human beings' are > used as a indication that an author (male) is feminist. Is this all that > is required to be feminist, or is it necessary to deal with issues that > are usually linked with women? (Perhaps this is what is meant by > 'propagandistic'?) I would say that, due to history, strong female > _human_ characters are often absent, and a good work DOES include them, > but this would not be the only judgement on whether the work is > feminist. I guess I come from a perspective where groups of Others > (nonwhite, nonmale, nonhet, etc) are expected in some ways to conform to a > position that in no necessarily (and I don't mean to imply essentially) of > their own devising. So if women characters are strong (defined in a way > that male characters have been), is the work feminist? I don't know. Is > women's writing the same as men's writing? Is this part of being > feminist? I don't know. > I hope for a good discussion =) > > misha > > On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Pike Publishing wrote: > > > --- Petra Mayerhofer > > wrote: > > > By the way, what do you think on this issue? I > > > remember > > > when I've read the first German Ph.D. thesis on > > > feminist > > > sf, how baffled I was that the author completely > > > ruled out > > > that men can write feminist sf (or feminist > > > literature). I > > > think the probability is much lower that they do > > > but not that > > > it cannot happen. My 2 cents. > > > > > If a male author writes a story with a strong, > > independent, intelligent, capable woman as the lead > > character, does that not qualify him as a feminist > > author? > > Walker Chandler, for example, wrote Evangeline > > Weathers as a human being fully endowed with all the > > strength and character of the more common male hero to > > be found in fiction. Is he not a feminist author? > > If not, is "feminist" being defined more narrowly and > > in a perhaps propagandistic sense? > > Walker did not set out to write a tract; he did not > > intend to lecture or polemicize. > > Yet he has written a book, "The Evangeline > > Manuscript," that I think *must* considered a feminist > > science fiction novel. > > Walker did not preach; he just presented an admirable, > > strong character who is female. > > I'd like to know others' definitions of "feminist," > > and whether "The Evangeline Manuscript" should or > > should not be considered feminist. > > Thank you. > > Michael Morrison > > http://www.pikepublishing.org > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. > > http://invites.yahoo.com > > > > > Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student > mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University > > ------------------------- > > -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- > Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:07:44 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Susan Graham Subject: Re: Research inquiry, men as feminist authors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Below, strong female characters, who are fully 'human beings' are used as a indication that an author (male) is feminist. Is this all that is required to be feminist, or is it necessary to deal with issues that are usually linked with women?" ------------------------------------------------------- I have been lurking on this listerv for some time now, and thought I'd respond to the very issue I grappled with while developing my thesis. I would argue that it takes more than a strong, female character to make a novel "feminist," and that this is due primarily to the concepts of sexual identity, reproduction, and autonomy that feminism brings up. You can avoid the above issues and still create a strong woman character, but I'm not sure if doing so would make the work "feminist." To use the term in its broadest sense, feminist literature, esp SF, feminist literature addresses the very core of how society structures and creates identity. Take a novel like Piercy's He, She, It or even Russ' Female Man; these novels and many other all boast strong, fully developed, female characters, but they also specifically address and call into question assumptions about society that are usually overlooked. As for whether or not men write feminist sf, I would argue that any author who attempts to imagine alternative ways of being, of restructuring sexual function and identity, of illustrating how dominant culture also constricts male identity would in fact be writing feminist sf. Unfortunately for me, when I was compiling a list of feminist sf novels for my specialization in grad school, I wasn't aware of too many and ended up having a list of 25 female authors and no male ones. Susan --- Misha Bernard wrote: > Well, it DOES depend on how feminist is defined. > Personally, I wouldn't > say that men (either because of biology or culture) > could not write > feminist SF. Rather I would say that most men > don't. Then, again, that > relies on my definition of what feminist SF would > be. > Below, strong female characters, who are > fully 'human beings' are > used as a indication that an author (male) is > feminist. Is this all that > is required to be feminist, or is it necessary to > deal with issues that > are usually linked with women? (Perhaps this is > what is meant by > 'propagandistic'?) I would say that, due to > history, strong female > _human_ characters are often absent, and a good work > DOES include them, > but this would not be the only judgement on whether > the work is > feminist. I guess I come from a perspective where > groups of Others > (nonwhite, nonmale, nonhet, etc) are expected in > some ways to conform to a > position that in no necessarily (and I don't mean to > imply essentially) of > their own devising. So if women characters are > strong (defined in a way > that male characters have been), is the work > feminist? I don't know. Is > women's writing the same as men's writing? Is this > part of being > feminist? I don't know. > I hope for a good discussion =) > > misha > > On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Pike Publishing wrote: > > > --- Petra Mayerhofer > > wrote: > > > By the way, what do you think on this issue? > I > > > remember > > > when I've read the first German Ph.D. thesis > on > > > feminist > > > sf, how baffled I was that the author > completely > > > ruled out > > > that men can write feminist sf (or feminist > > > literature). I > > > think the probability is much lower that > they do > > > but not that > > > it cannot happen. My 2 cents. > > > > > If a male author writes a story with a strong, > > independent, intelligent, capable woman as the > lead > > character, does that not qualify him as a feminist > > author? > > Walker Chandler, for example, wrote Evangeline > > Weathers as a human being fully endowed with all > the > > strength and character of the more common male > hero to > > be found in fiction. Is he not a feminist author? > > If not, is "feminist" being defined more narrowly > and > > in a perhaps propagandistic sense? > > Walker did not set out to write a tract; he did > not > > intend to lecture or polemicize. > > Yet he has written a book, "The Evangeline > > Manuscript," that I think *must* considered a > feminist > > science fiction novel. > > Walker did not preach; he just presented an > admirable, > > strong character who is female. > > I'd like to know others' definitions of > "feminist," > > and whether "The Evangeline Manuscript" should or > > should not be considered feminist. > > Thank you. > > Michael Morrison > > http://www.pikepublishing.org > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. > > http://invites.yahoo.com > > > > > Misha Bernard Cultural > Studies PhD student > mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason > University > > ------------------------- > > -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop > Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- > Ursula K. Le Guin "World > Making" (1981) > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 00:30:25 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Research inquiry, men as feminist authors Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I agree with Susan. To be truly feminist I believe a work must explore issues of reproduction, sexual politics, gender identity, etc., and must do so in fruitful ways that challenge conventional (read: complacent) thought. I believe that the opposite of patriarchy is sexual equality, not matriarchy, and see no intrinsic reason why a man can't write feminist SF. But while men are certainly welcome to express themselves on the subject, and might bring some interesting insights from the male perspective, I feel that it's primarily we women's job to define and shape feminism in dialog with each other. And one way we do that is in print, with our SF books and stories (and critiques and essays regarding them). As LauraQ alluded to earlier on this list, historically men have been the talkers, the definers, the namers of things, and we women have been trained to defer to them. And after all, isn't that pattern one of the very things we're attempting to change? So I wouldn't exclude men's voices from a feminist dialog, but if their voices began drowning out the women's, either in quantity or vehemence, I'd say we were no longer defining feminism but doing something else: falling back into old patterns that I as a feminist would find annoying and tiresome. As an aside, I might suggest "female-friendly" SF as a category that isn't feminist but avoids using cardboard cutouts for its female characters. Plenty of male (and of course female) SF writers these days are achieving this. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon > ljm@digitalnoir.com > http://www.digitalnoir.com ---------- >From: Susan Graham >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Research inquiry, men as feminist authors >Date: Tue, Apr 18, 2000, 3:07 PM > > "Below, strong female characters, who are fully 'human > beings' are used as a indication that an author (male) > is feminist. Is this all that is required to be > feminist, or is it necessary to deal with issues that > are usually linked with women?" > ------------------------------------------------------- > I have been lurking on this listerv for some time now, > and thought I'd respond to the very issue I grappled > with while developing my thesis. I would argue that > it takes more than a strong, female character to make > a novel "feminist," and that this is due primarily to > the concepts of sexual identity, reproduction, and > autonomy that feminism brings up. You can avoid the > above issues and still create a strong woman > character, but I'm not sure if doing so would make the > work "feminist." To use the term in its broadest > sense, feminist literature, esp SF, feminist > literature addresses the very core of how society > structures and creates identity. Take a novel like > Piercy's He, She, It or even Russ' Female Man; these > novels and many other all boast strong, fully > developed, female characters, but they also > specifically address and call into question > assumptions about society that are usually overlooked. > > As for whether or not men write feminist sf, I would > argue that any author who attempts to imagine > alternative ways of being, of restructuring sexual > function and identity, of illustrating how dominant > culture also constricts male identity would in fact be > writing feminist sf. Unfortunately for me, when I was > compiling a list of feminist sf novels for my > specialization in grad school, I wasn't aware of too > many and ended up having a list of 25 female authors > and no male ones. > > Susan > > --- Misha Bernard wrote: >> Well, it DOES depend on how feminist is defined. >> Personally, I wouldn't >> say that men (either because of biology or culture) >> could not write >> feminist SF. Rather I would say that most men >> don't. Then, again, that >> relies on my definition of what feminist SF would >> be. >> Below, strong female characters, who are >> fully 'human beings' are >> used as a indication that an author (male) is >> feminist. Is this all that >> is required to be feminist, or is it necessary to >> deal with issues that >> are usually linked with women? (Perhaps this is >> what is meant by >> 'propagandistic'?) I would say that, due to >> history, strong female >> _human_ characters are often absent, and a good work >> DOES include them, >> but this would not be the only judgement on whether >> the work is >> feminist. I guess I come from a perspective where >> groups of Others >> (nonwhite, nonmale, nonhet, etc) are expected in >> some ways to conform to a >> position that in no necessarily (and I don't mean to >> imply essentially) of >> their own devising. So if women characters are >> strong (defined in a way >> that male characters have been), is the work >> feminist? I don't know. Is >> women's writing the same as men's writing? Is this >> part of being >> feminist? I don't know. >> I hope for a good discussion =) >> >> misha >> >> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Pike Publishing wrote: >> >> > --- Petra Mayerhofer >> > wrote: >> > > By the way, what do you think on this issue? >> I >> > > remember >> > > when I've read the first German Ph.D. thesis >> on >> > > feminist >> > > sf, how baffled I was that the author >> completely >> > > ruled out >> > > that men can write feminist sf (or feminist >> > > literature). I >> > > think the probability is much lower that >> they do >> > > but not that >> > > it cannot happen. My 2 cents. >> > > >> > If a male author writes a story with a strong, >> > independent, intelligent, capable woman as the >> lead >> > character, does that not qualify him as a feminist >> > author? >> > Walker Chandler, for example, wrote Evangeline >> > Weathers as a human being fully endowed with all >> the >> > strength and character of the more common male >> hero to >> > be found in fiction. Is he not a feminist author? >> > If not, is "feminist" being defined more narrowly >> and >> > in a perhaps propagandistic sense? >> > Walker did not set out to write a tract; he did >> not >> > intend to lecture or polemicize. >> > Yet he has written a book, "The Evangeline >> > Manuscript," that I think *must* considered a >> feminist >> > science fiction novel. >> > Walker did not preach; he just presented an >> admirable, >> > strong character who is female. >> > I'd like to know others' definitions of >> "feminist," >> > and whether "The Evangeline Manuscript" should or >> > should not be considered feminist. >> > Thank you. >> > Michael Morrison >> > http://www.pikepublishing.org >> > >> > __________________________________________________ >> > Do You Yahoo!? >> > Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. >> > http://invites.yahoo.com >> > >> >> >> Misha Bernard Cultural >> Studies PhD student >> mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason >> University >> >> ------------------------- >> >> -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop >> Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- >> Ursula K. Le Guin "World >> Making" (1981) >> > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. > http://invites.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:40:21 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julieanne Subject: Re: Research inquiry, men as feminist authors In-Reply-To: <200004190630.AAA37188@mail2.thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 00:30 19/04/2000 -0600, Laura J. Mixon-Gould wrote: >I agree with Susan. To be truly feminist I believe a work must explore >issues of reproduction, sexual politics, gender identity, etc., and must do >so in fruitful ways that challenge conventional (read: complacent) thought. > >As an aside, I might suggest "female-friendly" SF as a category that isn't >feminist but avoids using cardboard cutouts for its female characters. >Plenty of male (and of course female) SF writers these days are achieving >this. Yes, I would add my support to that view. Just having a strong female protagonist without any questioning or exploration of gender roles or sexual politics, doesn't go far enough to be labelled 'feminist' in my world view. By the same token however, it is not sexist or anti-feminist - but more neutral, or "female-friendly":) Sometimes a good book about a female character and her life or experiences, is just a good book, and doesn't necessarily have any feminist "messages" to impart to its readers. Sometimes there are subtle feminist messages intertwined with other non-gender related messages concerning politics, or technology, or ageism, racism, xenophobia, environmentalism, slavery etc. To try and tease out definitions of feminist fiction, sci-fi or not - one of my classes suggested a listing of 'elements' or 'criteria' based on modifying general methodologies of analysing works of fiction. These 'elements' for example would include, characterisation, plot, theme, events, language style & presentation, relationships between various characters, exploration of relationships concerning, social, cultural, or political etc institutions. I'm sure there are plenty more we can all think of! As with 'feminism' itself - I don't see feminist sci-fi as an either/or situation - with a clear line between yes and no, but a kind of grey-scale blending across a whole range of features & characteristics, or 'elements'. At one end of the spectrum a book may be clearly identified as mostly, or completely feminist, because the author has made it obvious in almost every single paragraph that is what they are trying to get across to their readers in all the 'elements' of the work. In others, just one, or a few of these 'elements' are feminist in their construction, but other 'elements' of the book are gender-neutral. Some give "mixed messages" because they have mixed elements, examples that come to mind are Marion Zimmer Bradley, and Anne McCaffrey - on the one hand, they do use strong , powerful, independent-minded women characters, who often do amazing things, and often have power and wield it in their own right, they may even explore homosexuality and alternative gender-based social constructions etc, but then there are so often *jarring* scenes of quite anti-feminist statements, particularly in the female protagonists' relationships to male lovers, who are also usually depicted as pure stereotypes of machismo. As for men writing feminist sci-fi - there are a few, but not as many as female authored ones. Perhaps as a theme, its not as interesting or important to male authors? The ones that come first to mind, are Stephen Leigh & David Brin for at least exploring social gender-constructs in some of their works, and making it their primary theme. Cheers - Julieanne:) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:12:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: Research inquiry, men as feminist authors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura wrote, >As an aside, I might suggest "female-friendly" SF as a category that isn't >feminist but avoids using cardboard cutouts for its female characters. >Plenty of male (and of course female) SF writers these days are achieving >this. > OK, good definition. I was reading the previous posts and wondering how I would put David Weber's Honor Harrington books--"female friendly" seems to work. I don't think his books are quite feminist, for all the reasons people have brought up, but I love them, and I love Honor. She reminds me of the women I knew in the army--strong, humorous, confident, capable, no-nonsense, intelligent--but usually, NOT feminist. I think Weber does an admirable job (whether consciously or not) of showing the type of woman who succeeds in an environment which is based on the traditional and male model. To succeed in a military role, whether it be the US Army or the Manticoran Navy, a woman--still, today, yes--must suppress large parts of her personality and adopt the values and standards of the organization. This is true, I'm sure, of all organizations, but I would argue that a military environment is the last place anyone is going to look for groundbreaking ideas about human potential. Sheryl ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:22:32 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Research inquiry, men as feminist authors In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000419184021.00907c90@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On 19 Apr 00, Julieanne wrote: > As with 'feminism' itself - I don't see feminist sci-fi as an either/or > situation - with a clear line between yes and no, but a kind of grey-scale > blending across a whole range of features & characteristics, or 'elements'. Very true!!!! I think the development over time is also important. I mean what might have been a breakthrough 20-30 years ago can nowadays be quite commonplace or even a throw-back (which means that books have to be reevaluated when new feminist concepts/viewpoints are developed). The 'Amazon' is IMO a case in point. The Amazon is certainly one of the 'strong female role models'. And the protagonist Alyx in Joanna Russ' work is often cited for the liberating effect she had (unfortunately I haven't found an issue of the respective books yet). That was in the sixties. Around 1980 came the Amazons!- anthologies edited by Jessica Salmonson and in the eighties the Amazon became rather popular in (fantasy) fiction. But Salmonson herself sees this development rather critically (I have recently read a paper by her from 1990 on this; it originally appeared in The New York Review of Science Fiction, S. provides it on her website). One issue she raised is that the Amazon is (nearly) always presented as an anomaly, i.e. the exception in her society, thus reinforcing the standard role models for women (the other issue she raised is that the Swordswoman is sexualized in fantasy fiction in the eighties, apparently she is rather often presented as prostitute or as masochistic (never as sadistic) or her lesbian relationships are stressed while her strength and fierceness are downplayed). Salmonson also includes Alyx in her criticism (on the first issue not the second). > As for men writing feminist sci-fi - there are a few, but not as many as > female authored ones. Perhaps as a theme, its not as interesting or > important to male authors? The ones that come first to mind, are Stephen > Leigh & David Brin for at least exploring social gender-constructs in some > of their works, and making it their primary theme. I remember that at some point I noticed that we haven't yet read any male author in the BDG and wanted to nominate some (that was when one could still nominate several books). I was curious whether they had a different point of view on feminist issues. I looked through the Tiptree winners, short and long lists but based on the comments of the jury none of the books really appealed to me. I especially remember how the comments on one of Leigh's books (long-listed) dissuaded me from buying it. I have so often heard about the little dispute around David Brin's _Glory Season_ (and details why people did/do not find it Tiptree-material) that I don't care for it any more. I have read half of _Red Mars_ by Kim Robinson (short-listed) and he quite naturally included many women as scientists, cosmonauts, engineers (I rather fondly remember one of the engineers). Evaluating it on feminist terms I would give it a light gray shade. _Coelestis_ by Paul Park I consider very interesting. There is this sympathetically presented guy who 'forces' the (genderless?) alien to accommodate his view of 'her' as a human female doll. Chilling. Most of the stories written by men in the _Flying Cups_ anthology I did not find really enlightening, of them I liked 'The Other Magpie' by R. García y Robertson best. Raphael Carter was short-listed with _The Fortunate Fall_ and was a winner with a story last year, but apparently s/he does not see hirself as a man. Another Tiptree winner was Theodore Roszak but so far I've never come beyond the first 10 pages of his book. The list of male authors short-listed for the Tiptree extends to about 15- 20. Then, of course, Samuel Delany is often cited as feminist, again someone I haven't read yet. I've never heard of the book Michael Morrison cited. In summary, I would have difficulties at the moment to list a sf book written by a man which I would put in the dark grey to black center of feminist sf, my impression is that most of the feminist books by male authors would only get a light grey shade. But that might be only because I do not know the 'right' book yet ;-). Perhaps list members care to list sf by male authors which they think feminist and why. I at least would be very interested. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:33:04 +1200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Men as feminist authors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Susan Graham when she said >I would argue that >it takes more than a strong, female character to make >a novel "feminist," and that this is due primarily to >the concepts of sexual identity, reproduction, and >autonomy that feminism brings up. You can avoid the >above issues and still create a strong woman >character, but I'm not sure if doing so would make the >work "feminist." However, I'm not sure whether I agree with her statement that >feminist literature, esp SF, feminist >literature addresses the very core of how society >structures and creates identity. Maybe I'm missing a difference between feminist books and feminist political action, but it's my belief that feminism is both the acknowledgement that women are systematically disadvantaged by social structures which also advantage men, and the collective struggle by women to change those structures. Definitions of feminism vary between countries, as well as cultures, classes and other groupings. So for me, a feminist SF or F book is one which deals with some aspect of the power relationship between women and men in an imaginary setting, rather than with the construction of identity. Thus, obviously, men can write feminist books. In New Zealand, however, they rarely call themselves feminists because of the above definition. I enjoy novels by men which feature strong female protagonists surmounting challenges, but many of them do not take the additional step of addressing the power relationship between the sexes in some way. Jenny Rankine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:34:15 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Erica F. Obey" Subject: FW: Query on demographics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Erica F. Obey [mailto:obeybaird@erols.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 10:28 PM To: feminstsf@listserv.uic.edu Subject: Query on demographics Hi, all. I'm working on a paper on alternative reality romance novels and need some general statistics on the breakdown of male/female readers of scifi, and, in particular, how this proportion may have changed with the advent of authors such as LeGuin and McCaffrey in the late 70s. A current breakdown would be useful as well. Would anyone have any references they could point me toward? I appreciate any help you can give me. Erica Obey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 07:56:10 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Research inquiry, men as feminist authors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed On 19 Apr 00, Julieanne wrote: >As for men writing feminist sci-fi - there are a few, but not as many as >female authored ones. Perhaps as a theme, its not as interesting or >important to male authors? I think that's it. Men under patriarchy have the luxury of ignoring, to some extent, the system they're in. Probably similar dynamics as those that lead to few white writers dealing with racial issues. In a conversation with Karen Joy Fowler at Clarion way back when, I said that someone should really write a story called "The Men Women Don't See." Karen said, quite properly, "Go ahead and write it, Danny." But I've never come up with a story worthy of that title. Danny (I hope that didn't skew the M/F ratio too much ;) ) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:49:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Research inquiry, men as feminist authors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wanted to drop a fast note thanking everyone for their input so far, you have all given me a lot to think about in terms of defining the bounds of my topic for this research project. I am printing everything up to go over when I am not so rushed around here, I wanted to let you know you are helping me with adding to knowledge, which is what they tell me at college is the purpose of research but I like to think too everyone benefits from the exchange of ideas hehe...take care Jo Ann who is able to relax a little and take in a mailing list conversation without having to run out the door somewhere for once hehe ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Krashin To: Sent: Friday, April 21, 2000 7:56 AM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Research inquiry, men as feminist authors > On 19 Apr 00, Julieanne wrote: > > >As for men writing feminist sci-fi - there are a few, but not as many as > >female authored ones. Perhaps as a theme, its not as interesting or > >important to male authors? > > I think that's it. Men under patriarchy have the luxury of ignoring, > to some extent, the system they're in. Probably similar dynamics > as those that lead to few white writers dealing with racial issues. > > In a conversation with Karen Joy Fowler at Clarion way back when, I > said that someone should really write a story called "The > Men Women Don't See." Karen said, quite properly, "Go ahead and > write it, Danny." But I've never come up with a story worthy > of that title. > > Danny (I hope that didn't skew the M/F ratio too much ;) ) > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > >