From LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu Fri Jan 26 13:39:33 2001 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:58:51 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0006A" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 09:49:20 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura M Quilter Subject: Fwd: Thirteen's "Lathe" Web Site Going Live Tonight! (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 01:22:38 -0700 From: Jane Hawkins To: jhawk@oz.net Subject: Fwd: Thirteen's "Lathe" Web Site Going Live Tonight! I'm forwarding this message to everyone who's sent me email about "Lathe of Heaven". I've gotten so many emails that I've rarely been able to respond to you, but all of you who care about this wonderful movie should be both pleased to see it released again and proud of yourselves for being a part of making it happen. We helped by showing there was a market for it and now it is time to enjoy the fruits! Jane Hawkins >From: BASILE Joe >Subject: Thirteen's "Lathe" Web Site Going Live Tonight! >Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:05:21 -0400 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) > >FYI Everyone: > >A companion Web site will go live for THE LATHE OF HEAVEN this evening, June >2nd, at http://www.thirteen.org/lathe > >Watch for video clips, downloads, links, broadcast schedule and more. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 18:19:31 0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: Re: Women, science, and young adult fiction In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000618192014.010c1880@pop.enteract.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thank you very much to all who responded to the request for young adult fiction with female protagonist interested in science. I compiled the messages so far today and forwarded them to Eva Stowers from the University of Nevada who originally asked for suggestions. But that should not stop you to suggest more if you remember any. Petra Petra Mayerhofer mailto:mayerhofer@usf.uni-kassel.de -- BDG website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:16:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Women, science, and young adult fiction _Podkayne of Mars_ is one of my favorite books, and the protagonist is a young girl named Podkayne who was named after a Martian saint. Another good read is the _Foundation Trilogy_ by Isaac Asimov; in one of the books of the series, there's a young female protagonist whose name escapes me (I need to reread the series!) who's very bright and precocious. In the Bible, there are numerous stories of strong female characters such as the Book of Judith who saves her people from extermination. There's also the Book of Esther. There are numerous strong female characters in the Book of Genesis. Well, good luck with your search! Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:44:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Christianity and Asimov: Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm interested in how you take Asimov's (at times irritatedly) profound atheism, Cindy, as an obviously devout Catholic. Todd. -----Original Message----- From: Cindy Smith [mailto:cms@DRAGON.COM] Another good read is the _Foundation Trilogy_ by Isaac Asimov; in one of the books of the series, there's a young female protagonist whose name escapes me (I need to reread the series!) who's very bright and precocious. In the Bible, there are numerous stories of strong female characters such as the Book of Judith who saves her people from extermination. There's also the Book of Esther. There are numerous strong female characters in the Book of Genesis. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:01:16 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Christianity and Asimov: Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And I'm interested in how others who read "Podkayne" long ago feel now about the novel's unambiguous message that women exist to rear children, and shouldn't give anything else priority in their lives. Having a young female protagonist doesn't make a book feminist...this one's a good example of that fact. *************************************** Nina M. Osier >From EBOOKSONTHE.NET: "Matushka," "Exile's End," "Silent Service," "Regs" >From E-BOOK EXPRESS, writing as Sita Bouldac: "The Pollyanna Syndrome," "Starks Harbor" http://members.mint.net/mbarron ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd Mason To: Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Christianity and Asimov: Smith > I'm interested in how you take Asimov's (at times irritatedly) profound > atheism, Cindy, as an obviously devout Catholic. > Todd. > -----Original Message----- > From: Cindy Smith [mailto:cms@DRAGON.COM] > Another > good read is the _Foundation Trilogy_ by Isaac Asimov; in one of the books > of the series, there's a young female protagonist whose name escapes me > (I need to reread the series!) who's very bright and precocious. > In the Bible, there are numerous stories of strong female characters such > as the Book of Judith who saves her people from extermination. There's > also the Book of Esther. There are numerous strong female characters in > the Book of Genesis. > Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter > GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia > cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion > cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off > cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira > 5:8 > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:24:54 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Firebrand's demise? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I heard something in passing about Firebrand (ironically the publishers of the Lambda award winning GILDA STORIES by Jewelle Gomez being discussed on FEMSF-Lit this month) no longer publishing? Has anyone else heard anything about this? Maryelizabeth -- Maryelizabeth Hart Publicity Manager ****************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd., #302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ****************************************************************** -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:25:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Sexism and Heinlein: Osier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Having never suffered through the entirety of PODKAYNE, I didn't choose to open that can of worms, which definitely has gotten a workout here before. I've never understood why so many women seem to think RAH empowering, except that he Almost allows them to play on the same field as the boys in some of his books, which was hardly unique in sf, but pretty rare for girls to find up through the sixties in their libraries. (Not so oddly, I'm finding that in reading some of the better western fiction of the 1950s of late that the stories, while often retaining a fair amount of stereotyping of various sorts but often turning the stereotypes inside out, are on balance more sexually and in other ways egalitarian than the balance of sf and "serious literary" fiction published contemporarily. Frontiers have a way of shaking things up. And, of course, having RAH and William Tenn and Norman Mailer and Ernest Hemingway on the "other teams" helps drag down their sides no little.) -----Original Message----- From: Nina M. Osier [mailto:mbarron@MINT.NET] And I'm interested in how others who read "Podkayne" long ago feel now about the novel's unambiguous message that women exist to rear children, and shouldn't give anything else priority in their lives. Having a young female protagonist doesn't make a book feminist...this one's a good example of that fact. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:40:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Sexism and Heinlein: Osier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That is an interesting question. In my case, the answer is simply that when I was a teen-ager reading Heinlein his female characters actually did have more varied and interesting roles than the women in my corner of the real universe. I loved it when "Jack" of "Tunnel in the Sky" was revealed to be Jacqueline, for instance! Yet "Podkayne" bothered me even on first reading, it was so in my face that the job of a female human being was to reproduce and rear - and not accepting this role made a woman BAD (as well as abnormal). I wasn't expecting that to be the book's message, right up until close to its end I was still enjoying Podkayne as a character who reminded me of Madeleine L'Engle's heroine Meg...so my irritation level was pretty high when I finished reading and realized I was now supposed to agree that Podkayne's mother had done something horrible by wanting to plan her family around her career. I didn't throw the book across the room (I probably would now, if I even finished it!). But I started thinking, thinking hard. Which isn't what poor old Heinlein wanted me to do, but it's the effect he had! *************************************** Nina M. Osier >From EBOOKSONTHE.NET: "Matushka," "Exile's End," "Silent Service," "Regs" >From E-BOOK EXPRESS, writing as Sita Bouldac: "The Pollyanna Syndrome," "Starks Harbor" http://members.mint.net/mbarron -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:38:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Firebrand's demise?: Hart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Even with Alison Bechdel? For what little it's worth, the website makes no mention of folding... http://www.firebrandbooks.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Maryelizabeth Hart [mailto:publicity@MYSTGALAXY.COM] I heard something in passing about Firebrand (ironically the publishers of the Lambda award winning GILDA STORIES by Jewelle Gomez being discussed on FEMSF-Lit this month) no longer publishing? Has anyone else heard anything about this? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:08:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: Firebrand's demise?: Mason MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, I know -- I don't want Dykes to Watch Out For to be past tense or looking for a new home. and I checked the web site before inquiring, but naturally didn't think to mention it in my original post... Maryelizabeth Todd Mason wrote: > Even with Alison Bechdel? For what little it's worth, the website makes no > mention of folding... > > http://www.firebrandbooks.com/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Maryelizabeth Hart [mailto:publicity@MYSTGALAXY.COM] > > I heard something in passing about Firebrand (ironically the publishers > of the Lambda award winning GILDA STORIES by Jewelle Gomez being > discussed on FEMSF-Lit this month) no longer publishing? Has anyone else > heard anything about this? > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Maryelizabeth Hart Publicity Manager ****************************************************************** Mysterious Galaxy Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd., #302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ****************************************************************** -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:12:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: PODKAYNE: Osier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The question has arisen over the last several days on another list about the influence Leslyn Heinlein, his first wife, and Virginia Heinlein, his second, had on his outlook. Leslyn was (iirc) his commanding officer when they met, was a New Dealer, was willing to pose nude for RAH's experiments in photography. Virginia was apparently much more the traditionalist and conservative, though as I wrote elsewhere, Heinlein and perhaps his wives as well always did seem to have an unhealthy respect for hierarchy. Heinlein's fiction's recurring spanking fetish, mostly aimed at adult women, is certainly one of the early signs of his lack of complete egalitarianism in re women, and not the only nor last (FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD, I WILL FEAR NO EVIL and THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST being perhaps the highest later expressions). PODKAYNE was the last RAH juvenile to be published, wasn't it? Perhaps the attitudes leading up to FREEHOLD etc. were firmed up and ready to be expressed...or perhaps his track record allowed him to make a more personal statement with that one...thank goodness M. L'Engle was around! PODKAYNE was you "Click!" moment? -----Original Message----- From: Nina M. Osier [mailto:mbarron@MINT.NET] Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 12:40 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Sexism and Heinlein: Osier That is an interesting question. In my case, the answer is simply that when I was a teen-ager reading Heinlein his female characters actually did have more varied and interesting roles than the women in my corner of the real universe. I loved it when "Jack" of "Tunnel in the Sky" was revealed to be Jacqueline, for instance! Yet "Podkayne" bothered me even on first reading, it was so in my face that the job of a female human being was to reproduce and rear - and not accepting this role made a woman BAD (as well as abnormal). I wasn't expecting that to be the book's message, right up until close to its end I was still enjoying Podkayne as a character who reminded me of Madeleine L'Engle's heroine Meg...so my irritation level was pretty high when I finished reading and realized I was now supposed to agree that Podkayne's mother had done something horrible by wanting to plan her family around her career. I didn't throw the book across the room (I probably would now, if I even finished it!). But I started thinking, thinking hard. Which isn't what poor old Heinlein wanted me to do, but it's the effect he had! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:42:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: PODKAYNE: Osier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, it certainly was a "click" point for me! You're right, it sounds far more like his adult novels than any of his other juvenile works. Interesting about his marriages...I never can decide, when he's writing from a female protagonist's perspective, whether to laugh or scream. His "women" are caricatures, mostly. He didn't do as badly with little girls/young teen-aged girls, but adult females seem to have been another species to him. One whose members by definition didn't feel the same way "real" human beings, i.e. men, felt. (The spanking fetish is a fine example. No offense to anyone reading who shares it...but that it's inherent to being female to want to be dominated, is nonsense. Nonsense I fear Heinlein truly believed.) *************************************** Nina M. Osier >From EBOOKSONTHE.NET: "Matushka," "Exile's End," "Silent Service," "Regs" >From E-BOOK EXPRESS, writing as Sita Bouldac: "The Pollyanna Syndrome," "Starks Harbor" http://members.mint.net/mbarron -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:02:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Heinlein the Top: Osier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Or perhaps wanted to believe, or enjoyed toying with. Perhaps he felt dominated by his wives, perhaps he had unresolved anger over the divorce from Leslyn, definitely an untraditional woman in her time in several ways. GLORY ROAD is another item worth considering, wherein the remarkably competent woman warrior for some reason first drafts then defers to the American ex-military guy/protagonist. If one had a residual sense of being wronged by one's former commanding-officer/wife, one might perhaps spin a story along those lines.... Perhaps it's better-laid out in the novel than I remember after reading it in the F&SF serial version more than two decades ago. Doubt it. Ritualized and consensual spanking in certain contexts is one thing; it's quite another in such ridiculous settings as Heinlein occasionally put it in, such as when a male general threatens to spank a female colonel (for disagreeing with him) in the presence of a male major in the RAH-cowritten film OPERATION MOONBASE. This remains one of my favorite examples...the colonel's surname is, perhaps inevitably, Briteis. I don't remember how bright her eyes were. -----Original Message----- From: Nina M. Osier [mailto:mbarron@MINT.NET] (The spanking fetish is a fine example. No offense to anyone reading who shares it...but that it's inherent to being female to want to be dominated, is nonsense. Nonsense I fear Heinlein truly believed.) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:48:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Sexism and Heinlein: Osier In-Reply-To: <000201bfcfd5$e0302ae0$2d81e3d8@fpfzqlga> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:40 PM 6/6/00 -0400, "Nina M. Osier" wrote: > >I didn't throw the book across the room (I probably would now, if I even >finished it!). But I started thinking, thinking hard. > >Which isn't what poor old Heinlein wanted me to do, but it's the effect he >had! > You may not have thought what he did; you may have thought things he wouldn't have, couldn't have, or didn't want to; but he most certainly _did_ want you to think. Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:01:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Heinlein's Rest: Rest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yes, but they're all later expressions. EVIL was no more scattered and self-indulgent than FREEHOLD and perhaps less so than NUMBER, his antepenultimate novel, I think (only FRIDAY and JOB after?) -----Original Message----- From: Neil Rest At 12:12 PM 6/6/00 -0500, you wrote: >re women, and not the only nor last (FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD, I WILL FEAR NO EVIL >and THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST being perhaps the highest later expressions). Aren't you mixing decades? And Fear No Evil is in a category by itself, since he didn't know if he'd live to finish it. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:57:06 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julia Lyall Subject: Fwd: Re: [*FSFFU*] Heinlein the Top: Osier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't read Heinlein's work in over a decade, largely because I grew irritated with his distortion of women. While seeming to appreciate a strong woman, his male characters appeared happiest when they had the upper hand. Hence the 'spanking' references, to reduce the women and render them under the control of a designated male. Perhaps it was a reflection of the times (in some cases today) where women were 'allowed' to 'play' outside the home, as long as they knew the Man was 'boss' at home. Or perhaps a mere wish projection on Heinlein's part, which he indulged himself into his work? ---- you wrote: > Or perhaps wanted to believe, or enjoyed toying with. Perhaps he felt > dominated by his wives, perhaps he had unresolved anger over the divorce > from Leslyn, definitely an untraditional woman in her time in several ways. > > GLORY ROAD is another item worth considering, wherein the remarkably > competent woman warrior for some reason first drafts then defers to the > American ex-military guy/protagonist. If one had a residual sense of being > wronged by one's former commanding-officer/wife, one might perhaps spin a > story along those lines.... Perhaps it's better-laid out in the novel than > I remember after reading it in the F&SF serial version more than two decades > ago. Doubt it. > > Ritualized and consensual spanking in certain contexts is one thing; it's > quite another in such ridiculous settings as Heinlein occasionally put it > in, such as when a male general threatens to spank a female colonel (for > disagreeing with him) in the presence of a male major in the RAH-cowritten > film OPERATION MOONBASE. This remains one of my favorite examples...the > colonel's surname is, perhaps inevitably, Briteis. I don't remember how > bright her eyes were. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nina M. Osier [mailto:mbarron@MINT.NET] > (The spanking fetish is a fine example. No offense > to anyone reading who shares it...but that it's inherent to being female to > want to be dominated, is nonsense. Nonsense I fear Heinlein truly > believed.) > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ------------------------------- Beam to http://www.StarTrek.com The official site of the Star Trek universe -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:13:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Shalanna Subject: Re: Heinlein & portrayals of females In-Reply-To: <000606205706K1.14802@weba6.iname.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I am enjoying the discussion. I know that RAH was one of the best scientist-writers that there's ever been, and I know I enjoyed all his works when I read them several years ago. I knew even then that his main characters' relationships with women weren't realistic, though. He was very much of The Greatest Generation, the WWII men who are today being featured (such as the Pacific War vet who was in the concentration camp in Japan, seen on Dateline last night), and that colored his work greatly, even in the "future history" segments. I'm afraid I was (and am) inclined to smile indulgently and enjoy the work as it is, knowing that his strengths don't lie in portraying realistic women nor relationships between the sexes. _The Door Into Summer_ is not so sexist, and is among his best, IMHO. Always makes me cry. Did you know that his editor for the juvies (Podkayne among them) insisted that he change the endings? This is in "Grumbles from the Grave" or another of the retrospectives that his wife Virginia published after his death. Some of his letters that flew to that editor object to the changes she wanted. The changes to Podkayne's ending were fairly extreme; one edition contains both endings. Also, sometimes an author allows a viewpoint character to take on an attitude or belief that colors the work, but which is not the author's belief. It's often a mistake to believe that the author believes what he's put into the characters' mouths. In RAH's case, though, I imagine he did feel this way toward women. I couldn't have changed my dad or my uncles who were WWII vets, because they just weren't able to take women seriously, but the new generation of men is able and willing to take on the new paradigm of powerful women. So we have to look at fiction written in the past in the context that it was in. (This is kind of like the attitude you need to have in order to read works like _Huck Finn_ and _Uncle Tom's Cabin_, which contain the "N" word because that was the word used then, although the authors didn't approve of racism.) That's the only way to enjoy the works that don't reflect modern sensibilities. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:41:07 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Heinlein & portrayals of females Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well said, Shalanna. He's an important writer and worth reading despite his flawed female characters. At sixteen, though, when I read STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, the portrayal of women was annoying enough that I couldn't finish the book. It's taken me a long time to get to the smile-indulgently stage, vis-a-vis his work -- especially the later stuff. I lost patience with his barefoot-and-pregnant-uber-alles thesis. There's no doubt he's brilliant, at his best; THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS is one of my all-time faves, and I see his influences in my own work. -- Laura J. Mixon > ljm@digitalnoir.com > http://www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- PROXIES - Future-noir with a heart of gold (and buns of steel) (Tor, Oct 1999 ISBN 0812523873) http://www.digitalnoir.com/prx ---------- >From: Shalanna >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Heinlein & portrayals of females >Date: Tue, Jun 6, 2000, 8:13 PM > > I am enjoying the discussion. I know that RAH was one of the best > scientist-writers that there's ever been, and I know I enjoyed all his > works when I read them several years ago. I knew even then that his main > characters' relationships with women weren't realistic, though. He was > very much of The Greatest Generation, the WWII men who are today being > featured (such as the Pacific War vet who was in the concentration camp in > Japan, seen on Dateline last night), and that colored his work greatly, > even in the "future history" segments. I'm afraid I was (and am) inclined > to smile indulgently and enjoy the work as it is, knowing that his > strengths don't lie in portraying realistic women nor relationships between > the sexes. > > _The Door Into Summer_ is not so sexist, and is among his best, > IMHO. Always makes me cry. > > Did you know that his editor for the juvies (Podkayne among them) insisted > that he change the endings? This is in "Grumbles from the Grave" or > another of the retrospectives that his wife Virginia published after his > death. Some of his letters that flew to that editor object to the changes > she wanted. The changes to Podkayne's ending were fairly extreme; one > edition contains both endings. > > Also, sometimes an author allows a viewpoint character to take on an > attitude or belief that colors the work, but which is not the author's > belief. It's often a mistake to believe that the author believes what he's > put into the characters' mouths. In RAH's case, though, I imagine he did > feel this way toward women. I couldn't have changed my dad or my uncles > who were WWII vets, because they just weren't able to take women seriously, > but the new generation of men is able and willing to take on the new > paradigm of powerful women. So we have to look at fiction written in the > past in the context that it was in. (This is kind of like the attitude you > need to have in order to read works like _Huck Finn_ and _Uncle Tom's > Cabin_, which contain the "N" word because that was the word used then, > although the authors didn't approve of racism.) > That's the only way to enjoy the works that don't reflect modern sensibilities. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 01:56:32 -0400 Reply-To: Amy Harlib Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Wheel of the Infinite Book Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just read this one with a wonderful female protagonist. This review will be published at The SF Site in a couple of weeks or so. Hope you all don't mind my sharing -- Amy Harlib aharlib@worldnet.att.net Wheel of the Infinite by Martha Wells, (EOS/HarperCollins, NY, July 2000, hardcover, $24.00, ISBN#: 0-380-97335-9). Martha Wells is that rarity, amidst the glut of endlessly repetitive fantasy series and re-cycled cliches---she is a writer whose every book so far stands alone and features new and different settings, characters, ideas, etc. Now, in her fourth novel of fantastic fiction, Wells succeeds yet again in producing a wholly original, brilliant conception sure to cement her reputation as one of the finest writers in the field deserving to rank alongside such masters as Guy Gavriel Kay, Gene Wolfe, Jack Vance, Tim Powers and Tanith Lee. The Wheel of the Infinite distinguishes itself immediately with its setting, an invented parallel world strongly reminiscent of South East Asia and even more specifically, the glorious civilization of Cambodia in the 12th and 13th century AD and its cities of Angkor Thom and Angkor Wat though there are whiffs of inspiration from Tibet and India as well. Duvalpore, the Celestial Empire's city of temples, is the site where every year, the wizardly Voices of the Ancestors must gather to renew the wheel of the Infinite, an image built of sand, (empowered with magical chants, visualizations and incense), that represents the key to the shape of reality. An especially important centenary version of this rite is approaching but an inexplicable, ominous, stormy black region has marred the Wheel's representation and all the sorcerous efforts of the Voices have failed to restore it to purity so far. If the blight is not excised before the Rite is completed, the world could be totally, undesirably changed. The Voice of the Adversary, Maskelle, who speaks for the power the Ancestors created to wipe out evil, has wandered in exile since a false vision years ago. But now the head of the Koshan Order of priests, the Celestial One, has called her back to the capital city of Duvalpore to make use of her unique, uncanny gifts. Maskelle returns to Duvalpore with the friends and allies she acquired in the wider world---Rastim's troupe of actors and the attractive, foreign swordsman/bodyguard Rian. >From her dreams of an eerie, inhuman city abandoned in the midst of devastation and other clues, Maskelle learns that the Voices have mysterious, magical opponents who have created a Wheel of their own in order to alter reality to benefit themselves; the Celestial Emperor himself has been duped by confederates of the invaders; and the Adversary itself might not be entirely sane. Maskelle and her companions cum allies, in their battle against the strange insurgents from another world, encounter murderous water spirits, possessed corpses, cursed puppets, murdered priests, magical assassins and the scheming court favorite Lady Marada, Wells wordsmithing skills making these odd ingredients blend together into an enthralling narrative. Marvelously inventive, swift-paced, witty, exciting, Well's latest fantasy is a testimony to her talent as a writer, for Wheel of the Infinite is not only about saving the world; it is also about saving Maskelle from self-doubt and isolation. The richly conceived Celestial Empire's plight is made all the more dramatic by the well-rounded, fully dimensional characters' sarcastic, reasonable conversations, and by their very human responses to inhuman perils. Maskelle, Rian, Rastim and company, the Celestial One, even Raith, the ambivalent Emperor are all such colorful, memorable protagonists that one longs for a whole series of sequels in order to visit again with them and their world of wondrously exotic, intricate backgrounds, dazzling magical manifestations, and truly original plot devices that add up to a tour de force of the imagination and a pleasurable fantastic fiction reading experience rarely matched! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 01:53:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Santanico Subject: Re: Heinlein & portrayals of females Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:41 PM 6/06/00 -0600, you wrote: >Well said, Shalanna. He's an important writer and worth reading despite his >flawed female characters. > >At sixteen, though, when I read STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, the portrayal of >women was annoying enough that I couldn't finish the book. It's taken me a >long time to get to the smile-indulgently stage, vis-a-vis his work -- >especially the later stuff. I lost patience with his >barefoot-and-pregnant-uber-alles thesis. True; when I first read "Podkayne", I actually enjoyed it thoroughly until the very end. Poddy herself is, despite the occasional "author's slip" (meaning you can tell that it's Heinlein voicing his views rather than the character), an infectiously charming, optimistic soul, the sort I'd have liked to pal around with as a kid. But the ending, where Poddy either dies or is maimed (depending on which ending you go with, Heinlein's original one or the 'softened' version his editor insisted on) and it's pinned on her mother just had me staring blankly at the page, muttering "Huhn?" Considering the otherwise surprisingly progressive viewpoint of the rest of the book, this was especially jarring, leaving you with a "That's IT? That's where he's ending it?!" sort of feeling. Basically, as Shalanna said, the attitude you need to take towards Heinlein and his contemporaries is the attitude you take towards your old Grandpa. He's a sweet old guy and you love him, but when he starts ratcheting on about "You young women today", it's time to tune out and begin a "Sure, Grandpa, whatever you say" subroutine. It really can't be blamed on him; he's a product of his times, and he means no harm. Freaks like John Norman, however, are NOT products of their times. In fact, the jury's still out on what exactly Norman _is_ a product of. I'm thinking maybe Satan and a jackal, like in "The Omen". Sant. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 03:50:37 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lydia Lynsdaughter Subject: Role Models Comments: cc: cincin@homemail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember well when I was just out of high school and working as a secretary. I'd read one science fiction paperback that had a strong female lead character, and I knew I wanted more (and I couldn't remember the author or the title of that book). It was depressing enough getting dressed up in nylons and skirts and making coffee for men who seemed to have half the intelligence I did (it was a small family run business). I craved and needed role strong models! I haunted bookstores all over the city buying every book that had 'Amazon' or 'Queen' or some such word in the title or with a picture on the cover of a woman as a warrior or in some other strong role. I threw a lot of books across the room in those days! In book after book, the lead character was a man. The 'strong' woman turned out to be manipulative and evil and in the end, frustrated. She invariable tried to win the 'manly' man and lost him to the shrinking-violet maiden who he had to rescue from the evil woman's clutches. Then my local library started a separate section for science fiction, and I began to discover this and that feminist writer with more and more feminist sci-fi beginning to be published, and the rest is history. The original paperback I read in high school was "And Chaos Died" by Joanna Russ of which I now have my own copy! Long Live Feminist Science Fiction! ------------------------------------------------------ Get the Latest News at CNN Interactive: http://CNN.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:17:03 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Spanking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm afraid that was not a fetish, but a reflection of the attitudes of the period. Whether they were colonels, starship pilots, or (as in Elaan of Troyius on Classic Trek) ambassadors of royal rank, they were still "Children of a larger growth", to be treated as such whenever they got out of line. There's an episode in one of the Lensmen books in which one of the heroes talks to a female head of state - in a species where the males are small, hot-tempered, and nonsapient - in a way you couldn't get by talking to a street beggar these days. it begins "Listen, sister...." and goes downhill from there. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:20:26 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Heinlein & portrayals of females In-Reply-To: <200006070653.BAA55886@piglet.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Santanico wrote: > He's a sweet old guy and you love him, but when he starts ratcheting on > about "You young women today", it's time to tune out and begin a "Sure, > Grandpa, whatever you say" subroutine. It really can't be blamed on him; > he's a product of his times, and he means no harm. > To quote a musical comedy that highlighted the attitudes of Heinlein's generation "Why can't they be like we were, perfect in every way. What's the matter with kids, today?" (From Bye, Bye, Birdie.)> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:07:57 PDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: Heinlein & portrayals of females Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:13:43 -0500 >From: Shalanna >Subject: Re: Heinlein & portrayals of females > >I am enjoying the discussion. I know that RAH was one of the best >scientist-writers that there's ever been, and I know I enjoyed all his >works when I read them several years ago. I knew even then that his main >characters' relationships with women weren't realistic, though. He was >very much of The Greatest Generation, the WWII men who are today being >featured (such as the Pacific War vet who was in the concentration camp in >Japan, seen on Dateline last night), and that colored his work greatly, >even in the "future history" segments. I'm afraid I was (and am) inclined >to smile indulgently and enjoy the work as it is, knowing that his >strengths don't lie in portraying realistic women nor relationships between >the sexes. Hear! Hear! It does the man a great disservice to lump him in with John Norman. That ignores the other side of him -- the side that wrote _Stranger in a Strange Land_, that wrote about line-marriages in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, that portrayed women as dropship captains in _Starship Troopers_. I think the appeal of _Podkayne of Mars_ may lie in the title character, who is a plucky and resourceful (in other words, Heinleinian) young girl. I think that character stuck with me much better than the bogus pro-motherhood message. And if you read _Grumbles from the Grave_ (which is pretty funny for any fiction writer because of the preserved arguments between Heinlein and his editors!) you can read the alternate ending, where Podkayne *dies*. I'm glad I didn't read that version as a kid, it would have really upset me. Danny ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:29:55 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Role Models In-Reply-To: <000607035037EN.01791@weba3.iname.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Lydia Lynsdaughter wrote: > Then my local library started a separate section for > science fiction, and I began to discover this and that > feminist writer with more and more feminist sci-fi > beginning to be published, and the rest is history. > > Long Live Feminist Science Fiction! I've been a science fiction reader since the age of 10, and Robert Heinlein was the first science fiction I ever ran into. I found him enormously liberating - for the period. Later he seemed to regress, as women moved in ways his GI soul found a bit too much. But by then I'd found another writer whose lead character's early experiences paralleled mine, and .... Well, it takes off from there. Long live science fiction! Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:47:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Heinlein & portrayals of females In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:20 AM 6/7/00 -0700, Pat wrote: >On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Santanico wrote: > >> He's a sweet old guy and you love him, but when he starts ratcheting on >> about "You young women today", it's time to tune out and begin a "Sure, >> Grandpa, whatever you say" subroutine. It really can't be blamed on him; >> he's a product of his times, and he means no harm. >> > To quote a musical comedy that highlighted the attitudes of >Heinlein's generation "Why can't they be like we were, perfect in every >way. What's the matter with kids, today?" > (From Bye, Bye, Birdie.)> > As I started this paragraph, I filled in "Why Can't A Woman Be More Like A Man," from My Fair Lady. A hysterical and apropos song. My Fair Lady, of course, from George Bernard Sahw's Pygmalion. There's a story that Shaw [consummate contrarian] was once arguing at a party that men are more intelligent than women. He turned to his wife for confirmation, and she is supposed to have replied, "Of course, dear. I married you and you married me." Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.