From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 15:29:40 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:28:01 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0101A" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 01:21:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: feminist sf Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I'm a great fan of both feminist lit. and sci fi. Howerver I find that the intersection of the two is somewhat blurry and I'm not sure how some of my favorite authors would be classified. e.g. Marion Zimmer Bradley and Andre Norton seem to be fantasy rather than sci fi, and Ursula LeGuin seems to straddle both. I'd also love to hear of new authors in this genre that are new to me. Any recommendations? John -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:44:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Meether, Mikele" Subject: Re: feminist sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I've recently discovered Octavia E. Butler - Kindred and Mind of My Mind and I'm tracking down more. I love her work, I think it leans more toward sci fi rather then fantasy. What ever it is it's terrific. Mikele R. Meether Academic Advisor College of Arts & Sciences Florida Gulf Coast University 590-7204 -----Original Message----- From: John Vazquez [mailto:BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET] Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 1:21 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf I'm a great fan of both feminist lit. and sci fi. Howerver I find that the intersection of the two is somewhat blurry and I'm not sure how some of my favorite authors would be classified. e.g. Marion Zimmer Bradley and Andre Norton seem to be fantasy rather than sci fi, and Ursula LeGuin seems to straddle both. I'd also love to hear of new authors in this genre that are new to me. Any recommendations? John -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:36:43 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Margaret Poore Subject: Re: feminist sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John's question rather piqued my interest: Is there that definitive a difference between fantasy and science fiction? Some things are definitely fantasy; Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia; Kay's Fionivarr Tapestry, MZB's Mists of Avalon. Others are definitely sci-fi; Asimov's Foundation or Moon's books about the Families Regnant and the Regular Space Service (Once a Hero, Rules of Engagement). But I would consider MZB's Darkover universe as science fiction. Orson Scott Card's books about Ender seem to me to start out as science fiction but drift more and more towards fantasy as the series progresses. And what about Ursula Le Guin? Is the Left Hand of Darkness fantasy or science fiction? Seems like the underlying concept of most of her books (The universe is populated by various human species all tracing their biological origins back to the Hainish) is science fiction, but the stories read more like fantasy, and certainly some of her work is purely fantasy. In any case, some of my favorite fantasy/science fiction authors (starting of course with LeGuin and MZB) are Elizabeth Moon, Melissa Scott (Trouble and Her Friends), Orson Scott Card, Guy Gavriel Kay, Elizabeth Ann Scarborough (her fairy godmother books are fun, and her fantasy set during the VietNam war [The Healer's War] is powerful). I also like Anne McCaffrey and Mercedes Lackey, though their stuff is much more light-weight. Does anyone have definitions of fantasy and science fiction? Is it moot? Does this discussion belong here? I'm new to the list and just wondering........ Margaret -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:00:32 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: feminist sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I just gave my mother _Kindred_ for Christmas, in an attempt to persuade her that science fiction is worth reading, and is not entirely composed of shoot-em-up westerns in spaceships (I kind of like those too, but I didn't tell her that). According to the introduction in her edition (not the one I have), Butler has argued that the book is not science fiction, because there's no science in it. She calls it a "grim fantasy". I'm not sure I agree, but only because I solve the classification problem a little more subjectively: if I like it it's SF, if I don't it's fantasy. Regardless, anyone who liked _Kindred_ should definitely read _Parable of the Sower_, another very grim fantasy by Butler's definition, a great feminist SF novel by mine. >From: "Meether, Mikele" >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf >Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:44:30 -0500 > >I've recently discovered Octavia E. Butler - Kindred and Mind of My Mind >and >I'm tracking down more. I love her work, I think it leans more toward sci >fi rather then fantasy. What ever it is it's terrific. > >Mikele R. Meether >Academic Advisor >College of Arts & Sciences >Florida Gulf Coast University >590-7204 > > -----Original Message----- >From: John Vazquez [mailto:BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET] >Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 1:21 AM >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf > >I'm a great fan of both feminist lit. and sci fi. Howerver I find that >the intersection of the two is somewhat blurry and I'm not sure how some >of my favorite authors would be classified. e.g. Marion Zimmer Bradley >and Andre Norton seem to be fantasy rather than sci fi, and Ursula >LeGuin seems to straddle both. I'd also love to hear of new authors in >this genre that are new to me. Any recommendations? John > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:30:16 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: feminist sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed In my previous message, I said I think of anything I like as SF and anything I don't as fantasy. While this is somewhat true, it's also a rather drastic simplification. For me, the difference between the two genres comes down to a difference in politics. I consider SF to come up with new ideas, ask "what if" kind of questions and explore alternative social structures. I would expect to think about contemporary issues in a slightly different way after reading SF. This is why Butler's novels, even those that don't involve aliens, are for me SF. Fantasy, I consider to be more about wish fulfillment of already imagined universes. The "what if" seems reduced to "if magic worked, we could make the world the way we know it should be, good would triumph over evil". This kind of story generally assumes the existence of absolute good and absolute evil, and is therefore, in my never humble opinion, socially conservative and supportive of the binary oppositions that prop up patriarchy. I'm not saying fantasy writers don't attempt to write feminist novels, not even that they don't come up with some reasonably interesting attempts, just that the genre itself will always subvert their efforts. And it's not only from a feminist perspective that I dislike the politics of the genre - the very idea of the hero/ine being chosen as special, the only one with the inner power/ spirit/ birthright/ whatever to save the world has tendencies toward fascist dreams which make me extremely uncomfortable. As Carrot says, if there happens to be a hereditary king around anywhere, the best thing he could do would be to put in an honest day's work. Which brings me to one problem with this particular classification system. In it, Terry Pratchett cannot be classified as a fantasy writer. Maybe I can call him a satirist. I also have the same problems as everyone else with classifying such things as the Darkover novels and McCaffrey's Pern books, which use nominal science to set up an essentially fantasy world. I generally get around this problem by calling them "bad writing" and reselling them . I would be very interested to hear how other people think of the difference between the genres, and why. Kate. >From: Margaret Poore >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf >Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:36:43 EST > >John's question rather piqued my interest: Is there that definitive a >difference between fantasy and science fiction? Some things are definitely >fantasy; Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia; Kay's Fionivarr Tapestry, MZB's Mists >of Avalon. Others are definitely sci-fi; Asimov's Foundation or Moon's >books >about the Families Regnant and the Regular Space Service (Once a Hero, >Rules >of Engagement). > >But I would consider MZB's Darkover universe as science fiction. Orson >Scott >Card's books about Ender seem to me to start out as science fiction but >drift >more and more towards fantasy as the series progresses. And what about >Ursula >Le Guin? Is the Left Hand of Darkness fantasy or science fiction? Seems >like >the underlying concept of most of her books (The universe is populated by >various human species all tracing their biological origins back to the >Hainish) is science fiction, but the stories read more like fantasy, and >certainly some of her work is purely fantasy. > >In any case, some of my favorite fantasy/science fiction authors (starting >of >course with LeGuin and MZB) are Elizabeth Moon, Melissa Scott (Trouble and >Her Friends), Orson Scott Card, Guy Gavriel Kay, Elizabeth Ann Scarborough >(her fairy godmother books are fun, and her fantasy set during the VietNam >war [The Healer's War] is powerful). I also like Anne McCaffrey and >Mercedes >Lackey, though their stuff is much more light-weight. > >Does anyone have definitions of fantasy and science fiction? Is it moot? >Does >this discussion belong here? I'm new to the list and just wondering........ >Margaret > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 17:00:32 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: feminist sf: Dall et alles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Kate, I suggest you need to read Rosemary Pardoe's introduction to Jessica Amanda Salmonson's anthology WHAT DID MISS DARRINGTON SEE? To mention just one obvious example (several of LeGuin's essays could just as easily fit here). I must admit the desire to shoehorn fantasy into such straits, when fantasy clearly doesn't depend on Absolute anything so much as allowing for metaphors to be concretized in ways no other fiction can, seems to be remarkably widespread. For some reason, a remarkably clot-headed essay ineptly insisting on this and much unproven and self-contradictory else was published in slightly different forms in both REALMS OF FANTASY and LOCUS a few years back. One could insist, just as incompletely in my opinion, that sf is inherently a reification of the various bad attitudes toward Everything common in our culture, while fantasy is necessarily subversive of consensus reality and therefore necessarily liberating. Now, what is commonly commercially published is not equivalent to what a field of fiction is. To swipe from Algis Budrys, fiction is about how to live; science fiction is about the best (and worst) possible ways to live; fantasy (I add) is about the best and worst imaginable ways to live. TM -----Original Message----- From: Kate Dall [mailto:kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM] In my previous message, I said I think of anything I like as SF and anything I don't as fantasy. While this is somewhat true, it's also a rather drastic simplification. For me, the difference between the two genres comes down to a difference in politics. I consider SF to come up with new ideas, ask "what if" kind of questions and explore alternative social structures. I would expect to think about contemporary issues in a slightly different way after reading SF. This is why Butler's novels, even those that don't involve aliens, are for me SF. Fantasy, I consider to be more about wish fulfillment of already imagined universes. The "what if" seems reduced to "if magic worked, we could make the world the way we know it should be, good would triumph over evil". This kind of story generally assumes the existence of absolute good and absolute evil, and is therefore, in my never humble opinion, socially conservative and supportive of the binary oppositions that prop up patriarchy. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 18:27:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: feminist sf In-Reply-To: Kate Dall 's message of Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:30:16 -0000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Kate; very briefly Id like to tell you my take on fantasy. By using fanatsy as a medium the author sheds all conventional restrictions and can then present ideas allegorically. This genre has been used by many extremely gifted writers . Althougha male, the simplest and quickest example that comes to mind is C.S. Lewis' Narnia series. Lewis , who was a philosopher/theologian wrote this "children's" fatasy as an allegory of his theology. Of course it is nowa classic in literature. But he could not have achieved this through any other genre other than fantasy. Lewis is a great example because he also wrote classic hard sci fi ( That Hideous Strength, Perelandra, etc.) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 15:54:46 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: feminist sf: Dall et alles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FA849632DF7C3623CDAC99C2" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FA849632DF7C3623CDAC99C2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4D8D36ACF9FAD0F208DCC54B" --------------4D8D36ACF9FAD0F208DCC54B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neither experts nor amateurs will ever agree perfectly on what they mean by either term, but part of the problem in distinguishing between them comes from treating both at the same level of abstraction. Fantasy is ubiquitous, as important and inevitable as realism (which also comes in many varieties) as a way of seeing--and treating--fictional material. There is virtually no realism without fantasy and vice versa. See Kathryn Hume's groundbreaking 1984 book, Fantasy and Mimesis: Responses to Reality in Western Literature (regrettably out of print). Using elements of both fantasy and realism, science fiction is the new kid on the block, no older than 200 years by any sane counting, and the body of texts comprising it is much smaller. No science fiction can totally exclude fantasy, but most fantasy has little trouble doing without science fiction. This observation holds even more clearly for cinematic than for written narrative. In the latter half of the 20th century, the distinctions, never as firm as some have claimed, were blurred even more as fantasy writers from Tolkien on began to create coherent fictional worlds, and sf writers made more conscious and self-referential use of fantasy conventions in an effort to broaden their appeal, since harder varieties of sf had never sold to a very large (however reverential) audience. I teach courses in both, and I always have to shift gears, both my own and my students', to avoid treating them as simply parallel. Dave Samuelson Todd Mason wrote: > Kate, I suggest you need to read Rosemary Pardoe's introduction to Jessica > Amanda Salmonson's anthology WHAT DID MISS DARRINGTON SEE? To mention just > one obvious example (several of LeGuin's essays could just as easily fit > here). > > I must admit the desire to shoehorn fantasy into such straits, when fantasy > clearly doesn't depend on Absolute anything so much as allowing for > metaphors to be concretized in ways no other fiction can, seems to be > remarkably widespread. For some reason, a remarkably clot-headed essay > ineptly insisting on this and much unproven and self-contradictory else was > published in slightly different forms in both REALMS OF FANTASY and LOCUS a > few years back. > > One could insist, just as incompletely in my opinion, that sf is inherently > a reification of the various bad attitudes toward Everything common in our > culture, while fantasy is necessarily subversive of consensus reality and > therefore necessarily liberating. > > Now, what is commonly commercially published is not equivalent to what a > field of fiction is. > > To swipe from Algis Budrys, fiction is about how to live; science fiction is > about the best (and worst) possible ways to live; fantasy (I add) is about > the best and worst imaginable ways to live. > > TM > -----Original Message----- > From: Kate Dall [mailto:kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM] > > In my previous message, I said I think of anything I like as SF and anything > I don't as fantasy. While this is somewhat true, it's also a rather drastic > simplification. > > For me, the difference between the two genres comes down to a difference in > politics. I consider SF to come up with new ideas, ask "what if" kind of > questions and explore alternative social structures. I would expect to think > about contemporary issues in a slightly different way after reading SF. This > is why Butler's novels, even those that don't involve aliens, are for me SF. > > Fantasy, I consider to be more about wish fulfillment of already imagined > universes. The "what if" seems reduced to "if magic worked, we could make > the world the way we know it should be, good would triumph over evil". This > kind of story generally assumes the existence of absolute good and absolute > evil, and is therefore, in my never humble opinion, socially conservative > and supportive of the binary oppositions that prop up patriarchy. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. --------------4D8D36ACF9FAD0F208DCC54B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neither experts nor amateurs will ever agree perfectly on what they mean by either term, but part of the problem in distinguishing between them comes from treating both at the same level of abstraction.  Fantasy is ubiquitous, as important and inevitable as realism (which also comes in many varieties) as a way of seeing--and treating--fictional material.  There is virtually no realism without fantasy and vice versa.  See Kathryn Hume's groundbreaking 1984 book, Fantasy and Mimesis: Responses to Reality in Western Literature (regrettably out of print).

Using elements of both fantasy and realism, science fiction is the new kid on the block, no older than 200 years by any sane counting, and the body of texts comprising it is much smaller.  No science fiction can totally exclude fantasy, but most fantasy has little trouble doing without science fiction.  This observation holds even more clearly for cinematic than for written narrative.

In the latter half of the 20th century, the distinctions, never as firm as some have claimed, were blurred even more as fantasy writers from Tolkien on began to create coherent fictional worlds, and sf writers made more conscious and self-referential use of fantasy conventions in an effort to broaden their appeal, since harder varieties of sf had never sold to a very large (however reverential) audience.

I teach courses in both, and I always have to shift gears, both my own and my students', to avoid treating them as simply parallel.

Dave Samuelson
 

Todd Mason wrote:

Kate, I suggest you need to read Rosemary Pardoe's introduction to Jessica
Amanda Salmonson's anthology WHAT DID MISS DARRINGTON SEE?  To mention just
one obvious example (several of LeGuin's essays could just as easily fit
here).

I must admit the desire to shoehorn fantasy into such straits, when fantasy
clearly doesn't depend on Absolute anything so much as allowing for
metaphors to be concretized in ways no other fiction can, seems to be
remarkably widespread.  For some reason, a remarkably clot-headed essay
ineptly insisting on this and much unproven and self-contradictory else was
published in slightly different forms in both REALMS OF FANTASY and LOCUS a
few years back.

One could insist, just as incompletely in my opinion, that sf is inherently
a reification of the various bad attitudes toward Everything common in our
culture, while fantasy is necessarily subversive of consensus reality and
therefore necessarily liberating.

Now, what is commonly commercially published is not equivalent to what a
field of fiction is.

To swipe from Algis Budrys, fiction is about how to live; science fiction is
about the best (and worst) possible ways to live; fantasy (I add) is about
the best and worst imaginable ways to live.

TM
-----Original Message-----
From: Kate Dall [mailto:kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM]

In my previous message, I said I think of anything I like as SF and anything
I don't as fantasy. While this is somewhat true, it's also a rather drastic
simplification.

For me, the difference between the two genres comes down to a difference in
politics. I consider SF to come up with new ideas, ask "what if" kind of
questions and explore alternative social structures. I would expect to think
about contemporary issues in a slightly different way after reading SF. This
is why Butler's novels, even those that don't involve aliens, are for me SF.

Fantasy, I consider to be more about wish fulfillment of already imagined
universes. The "what if" seems reduced to "if magic worked, we could make
the world the way we know it should be, good would triumph over evil". This
kind of story generally assumes the existence of absolute good and absolute
evil, and is therefore, in my never humble opinion, socially conservative
and supportive of the binary oppositions that prop up patriarchy.

--------------------------------------------------
This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for
discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To
unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to
LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say:
                         unsubscribe FEMINISTSF

Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.

--------------4D8D36ACF9FAD0F208DCC54B-- --------------FA849632DF7C3623CDAC99C2 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="dnsmlsn.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Dave Samuelson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dnsmlsn.vcf" begin:vcard n:Samuelson;Dave tel;fax:work: 562-985-2369 home: 949-858-7170 tel;home:949-858-7878 tel;work:562-985-4245 x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:dnsmlsn@csulb.edu fn:Dave Samuelson end:vcard --------------FA849632DF7C3623CDAC99C2-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 16:00:59 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kristina Solheim Subject: Re: feminist sf In-Reply-To: <2f.f29f3af.27862acb@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:36 PM 1/4/2001 -0500, Margaret wrote: >Does anyone have definitions of fantasy and science fiction? Is it moot? Does >this discussion belong here? I'm new to the list and just wondering........ I think everyone has great takes on this question and I've really enjoyed reading them. As for myself... I think first you separate speculative fiction from plain old literary fiction. Then you separate the various genres within speculative fiction such as: alternate history, fantasy, science fiction, paranormal fiction (and everything in between). I think science fiction is fiction where a particular piece of science is integral to the story (i.e., if you took the science out, you wouldn't have a story). Fantasy is kind of everything else.... whatever is imagined as "What if?" but doesn't rely on a piece of science. just my two cents. enjoying the conversation! Kristina Editor of "On Spec: the Journal of Feminist Speculative Fiction." Want to see your name in print? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 19:24:45 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: feminist sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vazquez" >Lewis is a great example because he also wrote classic hard sci fi ( That Hideous Strength, >Perelandra, etc.) I'd call them theo-allegorical fantasy meself! Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 00:46:43 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: feminist sf: genre classifications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Replying to both Todd and John re definitions of fantasy... Todd, I wasn't trying to construct an academic argument, or I'd have put a lot more research, and, admittedly, thought, into it. I was just sharing (inflicting?) my own rather dubious and subjective biases, formed by a serious overdose of commercially available fantasy about fifteen years ago (my early teens). I won't be sending my arguments in to _Locus_ any time soon. I am interested in your description of fantasy as "allowing for metaphors to be concretized in ways no other fiction can". This sounds like the kind of writing I know as "magic realism", as practiced by, for example, Angela Carter or Salman Rushdie. If this is the kind of thing you have in mind, I agree with you completely that my political shoehorn is narrow and unfair. On the other hand, I never intended it to apply to writing I would place in a separate genre entirely. >Now, what is commonly commercially published is not equivalent to what a >field of fiction is. No, really? OK, I'll allow that I may just not have yet come across the huge amount of fantasy out there that subverts the world views of multinational capitalism, Christianity and patriarchy. Except, of course, for Pratchett. Can you give me any examples which might change my opinion? >To swipe from Algis Budrys, fiction is about how to live; science >fiction >is about the best (and worst) possible ways to live; fantasy (I >add) is >about the best and worst imaginable ways to live. Are you (and Algis) arguing that both science fiction and fantasy are essentially either utopian or dystopian? If so, I'd say you've got a bit of a shoehorn going yourself. I'm also a little confused about the difference between "best possible" and "best imaginable". I take it you mean that science fiction needs to be grounded in contemporary reality, whereas fantasy does not. However, I don't see how this contradicts my argument that science fiction is able to subvert the status quo whereas fantasy is not. If it isn't grounded in contemporary reality, how can it subvert it? Unless you mean that fantasy is grounded in contemporary _ideas_ about the nature of human beings and reality, and is subverting those. I can grant that this is possible, I just haven't yet encountered anyone who does it. Except for, again, Pratchett, who takes the piss out of the entire genre, and the aforementioned magic realists. John, I loved Narnia when I was a kid too. I never said all fantasy writers were crap _as writers_, just in their ideas about how the world works. Narnia is one of the most entertaining and inspiring allegories of Christianity I've ever read. This, however, doesn't change the fact that it's a Christian allegory, and therefore promotes a world view I disagree with. Your description of fantasy as a genre in which "the author sheds all conventional restrictions and can then present ideas allegorically" sounds very similar to Todd's definition of fantasy as a medium in which metaphors are concretised. My argument stands: if you are concretising and/or personifying, as in allegory, an already existing metaphor (such as light = good, dark = evil,to name a very obvious example), then you aren't subverting it, you're reifying it. Kate. Todd Mason wrote: >Kate, I suggest you need to read Rosemary Pardoe's introduction to Jessica >Amanda Salmonson's anthology WHAT DID MISS DARRINGTON SEE? To mention just >one obvious example (several of LeGuin's essays could just as easily fit >here). >I must admit the desire to shoehorn fantasy into such straits, when fantasy >clearly doesn't depend on Absolute anything so much as allowing for >metaphors to be concretized in ways no other fiction can, seems to be >remarkably widespread. For some reason, a remarkably clot-headed essay >ineptly insisting on this and much unproven and self-contradictory else was >published in slightly different forms in both REALMS OF FANTASY and LOCUS a >few years back. > >One could insist, just as incompletely in my opinion, that sf is inherently >a reification of the various bad attitudes toward Everything common in our >culture, while fantasy is necessarily subversive of consensus reality and >therefore necessarily liberating. > >Now, what is commonly commercially published is not equivalent to what a >field of fiction is. > >To swipe from Algis Budrys, fiction is about how to live; science fiction >is >about the best (and worst) possible ways to live; fantasy (I add) is about >the best and worst imaginable ways to live. > >TM John Vasquez wrote: Kate; very briefly Id like to tell you my take on fantasy. By using fanatsy as a medium the author sheds all conventional restrictions and can then present ideas allegorically. This genre has been used by many extremely gifted writers . Althougha male, the simplest and quickest example that comes to mind is C.S. Lewis' Narnia series. Lewis , who was a philosopher/theologian wrote this "children's" fatasy as an allegory of his theology. Of course it is nowa classic in literature. But he could not have achieved this through any other genre other than fantasy. Lewis is a great example because he also wrote classic hard sci fi ( That Hideous Strength, Perelandra, etc.) >-----Original Message----- >From: Kate Dall [mailto:kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM] > >In my previous message, I said I think of anything I like as SF and >anything >I don't as fantasy. While this is somewhat true, it's also a rather drastic >simplification. > >For me, the difference between the two genres comes down to a difference in >politics. I consider SF to come up with new ideas, ask "what if" kind of >questions and explore alternative social structures. I would expect to >think >about contemporary issues in a slightly different way after reading SF. >This >is why Butler's novels, even those that don't involve aliens, are for me >SF. > >Fantasy, I consider to be more about wish fulfillment of already imagined >universes. The "what if" seems reduced to "if magic worked, we could make >the world the way we know it should be, good would triumph over evil". This >kind of story generally assumes the existence of absolute good and absolute >evil, and is therefore, in my never humble opinion, socially conservative >and supportive of the binary oppositions that prop up patriarchy. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 19:18:39 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Dread "genre": Dall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Fair enough, most of this, Kate, and I admit to being both too busy and too tired to marshall fully what I would like to say in response tonight...but I didn't mean to suggest that sf and fantasy cannot find a golden, leaden, nor comfortable mean. Most of the better stuff does. I certainly meant only to chide you gently, as opposed to the letter I sent to Shawna McCarthy about Snotty's essay that perhaps will keep me forever out of the pages of ROF. Among the better stuff: Ursula Le Guin, Jorge Luis Borges, Avram Davidson, Rachel Pollack (particularly the short stories), Fritz Leiber (starting with his first novel, CONJURE WIFE), A. A. Attanasio, Samuel Delany, Elizabeth Hand, Kathe Koje, Lisa Tuttle, and Harlan Ellison all come to mind as fantasists who may not in each work subvert your dread trio, but each has produced (at least interesting) work that takes one at least one. Meanwhile, there's quite a pile of utterly contented sf. And Angela Carter and her fantasticated magic realism is not meaningfully separated from fantasy for me. Haven't read enough Rushdie yet to say anything meaningful about him. And I congratulate you on your restraint. The fellow I refer to also had choice words for magic realism in both his clever little tantrums (a paraphrase: "Magic Realism is Fantasy which is intellectually pompous and dull."). And any fiction not in some way grounded in reality would be, I suggest, incomprehensible. TM -----Original Message----- From: Kate Dall [mailto:kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM] Todd, I wasn't trying to construct an academic argument, or I'd have put a lot more research, and, admittedly, thought, into it. I won't be sending my arguments in to _Locus_ any time soon. OK, I'll allow that I may just not have yet come across the huge amount of fantasy out there that subverts the world views of multinational capitalism, Christianity and patriarchy. Except, of course, for Pratchett. Can you give me any examples which might change my opinion? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 19:51:33 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: feminist sf: genre classifications In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:46 AM 1/5/01 -0000, Kate Dall wrote: > >Are you (and Algis) arguing that both science fiction and fantasy are >essentially either utopian or dystopian? If so, I'd say you've got a bit of >a shoehorn going yourself. I'm also a little confused about the difference >between "best possible" and "best imaginable". I take it you mean that >science fiction needs to be grounded in contemporary reality, whereas ^^^^^^^^^^^^ >fantasy does not. No, *physical* reality. In general, a science ficiton writer is allowed one non-existant, and is required to use the consequences of living with it for a story. The more divergent and subtle n-th order consequences the better. While fantasy is more often moralistic, that is not an essential. (Blish' _A Case of Conscience_ comes to mind, for isntance.) Fantasy is played "with the net down", as some of its detractors in the science fiction camp put it. Logical consistency is an option, or even eccentricity, rather than essential. Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 03:54:46 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenelle Luntzel Subject: Re: feminist sf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I've just finished reading The Passion of New Eve, by Angela Carter. Carter has such a wide range in her writing, but I'm not certain if this work would be classified as science fiction. Has anyone else read it? >From: Kate Dall >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf >Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:00:32 -0000 > >I just gave my mother _Kindred_ for Christmas, in an attempt to persuade >her >that science fiction is worth reading, and is not entirely composed of >shoot-em-up westerns in spaceships (I kind of like those too, but I didn't >tell her that). > >According to the introduction in her edition (not the one I have), Butler >has argued that the book is not science fiction, because there's no science >in it. She calls it a "grim fantasy". I'm not sure I agree, but only >because >I solve the classification problem a little more subjectively: if I like it >it's SF, if I don't it's fantasy. > >Regardless, anyone who liked _Kindred_ should definitely read _Parable of >the Sower_, another very grim fantasy by Butler's definition, a great >feminist SF novel by mine. > > >>From: "Meether, Mikele" >>Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" >> >>To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf >>Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:44:30 -0500 >> >>I've recently discovered Octavia E. Butler - Kindred and Mind of My Mind >>and >>I'm tracking down more. I love her work, I think it leans more toward sci >>fi rather then fantasy. What ever it is it's terrific. >> >>Mikele R. Meether >>Academic Advisor >>College of Arts & Sciences >>Florida Gulf Coast University >>590-7204 >> >> -----Original Message----- >>From: John Vazquez [mailto:BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET] >>Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 1:21 AM >>To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >>Subject: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf >> >>I'm a great fan of both feminist lit. and sci fi. Howerver I find that >>the intersection of the two is somewhat blurry and I'm not sure how some >>of my favorite authors would be classified. e.g. Marion Zimmer Bradley >>and Andre Norton seem to be fantasy rather than sci fi, and Ursula >>LeGuin seems to straddle both. I'd also love to hear of new authors in >>this genre that are new to me. Any recommendations? John >> >>-------------------------------------------------- >>This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >>discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >>unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >>LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: >> unsubscribe FEMINISTSF >> >>Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. >> >>-------------------------------------------------- >>This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >>discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >>unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >>LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: >> unsubscribe FEMINISTSF >> >>Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:46:29 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Dissing fantasy: Rest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Without logical consistency, a fantasy is no more and no less compelling than any other fiction...something pretty impressive has to be going on elsewhere, or there has to be a good reason for lc to be unnecessary. -----Original Message----- From: Neil Rest [mailto:NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM] Fantasy is played "with the net down", as some of its detractors in the science fiction camp put it. Logical consistency is an option, or even eccentricity, rather than essential. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:21:11 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: feminist sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Black Wine By Candas Dorsey is excellent. Also, the previous Book Discussion lists, and archives contain pretty much all the fem sf I know of. There is a male writer- I think Steven Leigh is his name- who is sposed to be in the tradition o f Ursula le Guin, that might be worth a look ( I am just about to read on of his, so can't give a personal recommendation. I agree about Butler, she is absolutely great. Oh god... what's the name of her book of short stories... Bloodchild (?) anyway, it's great, especially the title story. Xenogenesis is brilliant. Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:39:08 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: feminist sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I always categorise a book as either fantasy or sf by whether or not the events in the book are plausible or not, may be not the best word, but I mean.... if everything in the book is supposed to occur in accordance with the laws of nature/ physics, then it's sf. If there are forces outside our knowledge of 'reality; (or whatever) its fantasy. Although books like the Darkover books cause me problems for my definition because of the telepathy aspect. But anyway, it works for me. I guess its like, if a book is asking me to accept the existence of something ie magic, supernatural, I call it fantasy. If there is nothing in the book which contradict science, ie dragons may be explained by evolution not magic; advanced or different technology to explain whatever bizarre things it is etc etc., then I call it science fiction Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:46:24 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: feminist sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/4/2001 9:05:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, narwen@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << I've just finished reading The Passion of New Eve, by Angela Carter. Carter has such a wide range in her writing, but I'm not certain if this work would be classified as science fiction. Has anyone else read it? >> I have. The thing with Carter is that her fiction broders the realms of Sci-fi and Fanasty. New Eve I would classify as Sci-Fi to a degree. Not to heavily a Scif-fi, perhaps more tech. a what if type of future. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 21:50:45 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: feminist sf: Shanahan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" And "science fantasy" has been a useful term for a range of materials for quite some time. -----Original Message----- From: Maire Shanahan [mailto:MaireShanahan@AOL.COM] Although books like the Darkover books cause me problems for my definition because of the telepathy aspect. But anyway, it works for me. I guess its like, if a book is asking me to accept the existence of something ie magic, supernatural, I call it fantasy. If there is nothing in the book which contradicts science, ie dragons may be explained by evolution not magic; advanced or different technology to explain whatever bizarre things it is etc etc., then I call it science fiction -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:04:40 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: feminist sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with this- I think my favourite type of fiction is what I consider speculative fiction- ie Xenogenesis etc. Fiction which to me, avoids the conventions of both fantasy and sf ie , to out it broadly , including castles or spaceships, magicians or physicists, orcs or aliens. Well, Xenogenesis, of course does have aliens, but get my point. The emphasis is on the IDEAS- the 'what if-s' instead of using the plots and settings which in sf, and especially fantasy have become so tired. I feel disinclined towards fantasy, because I go to a bookshop, and see in the 'sf and f' section, shelf after shelf of 10 book series, written by about 4 authors, all about either an urchin' thief or prince/ss, on a quest/ looking for a relic/ fighting a battle. And it starts to make me snore. Especially the way 9/10 fantasy authors transplant the medieval court system into their 'magical world'. I often wonder where it is exactly the book is supposed to be set. How many inferior rewritings of Lord of the Rings do we really need? I am definitely not saying there isn't some great fantasy out there, of course. Science fiction suffers a similar, but not as severe problem ie an extremely narrow selection of authors and ideas making it into bookshops, basically. I used to like reading hard sf because I liked feeling that I was learning something when I read (ie , some science). But at the end, for me, interesting scientific ideas don't compensate for poor characterisation, and lack of imagination. In fact . it's ironic that in a genre (putting sf and f together here) which is defined by use of imagination, is so lacking in that very think) Anyway, to return to my point- which was, that I think the really good books probably are the ones which cant be so easily defined. Which rely on their ideas and imagination, the ones that make you you think and wonder. That really haven't been written before. Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 04:00:36 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Dread "genre": Dall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Todd suggested, as examples of politically interesting fantasy: >Ursula Le Guin, Jorge Luis Borges, Avram Davidson,Rachel Pollack >(particularly the short stories), Fritz Leiber (starting with his first >novel, CONJURE WIFE), A. A. Attanasio, Samuel Delany, Elizabeth Hand, Kathe Koje, Lisa Tuttle, and Harlan Ellison. And Angela Carter and her fantasticated magic realism is not meaningfully separated from fantasy for me. Fair enough, Todd. I haven't read all of the writers on this list, and only stuff I would classify as SF by LeGuin, Delany and Ellison. I think the major problem with this debate is that we are working with very different definitions of "fantasy". I tend to think of it as a genre defined by a marketing category, and I accept that this is rather narrow. However, I also think there are significant problems with expanding the category to include any writing which uses an element of "the fantastic" - as Dave points out, that includes practically all fiction ever written. There are good arguments for genre itself being a more reductive than enabling construct, but I'm not quite ready to ditch it quite yet - if nothing else, it can start some great arguments ;) I must admit, although I haven't yet read _Neveryon_, I find it difficult to imagine Delany writing the kind of fantasy I object to. I'll give it a go and see if he can covert me. >>Meanwhile, there's quite a pile of utterly contented sf. Oh, how true. I would never attempt to argue that all SF lives up to the potential of the genre, just that the genre itself does have more potential for subversion than many others (eg detective fiction as well as "fantasy"). >And I congratulate you on your restraint. The fellow I refer to also had >choice words for magic realism in both his clever little tantrums (a paraphrase: "Magic Realism is Fantasy which is intellectually pompous and dull."). I'll have to find this. He does at least sound entertaining, if misguided. Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 02:27:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: feminist sf In-Reply-To: Maire Shanahan 's message of Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:04:40 EST Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Re: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf Marie; you have a great sense of humor. I burst out laughing when you said you're tired of seeing 10 book series, by 4 authors in which there's a prince/ss on a quest to find come relic.Lol I relate. I'd like to make one observation that has occurred to me. Generally speaking, sci fi is an art form that employs and deals with technology - even ,of course - futuristic tech. which is simply an imagined extension of our present tech. Fantasy, on the other hand, deals more with altered states of consciousness and is, in essence, spiritual as opposed to technological. Does that make sense to anyone. It's just a thought that occurred to me so i've thrown it out there for some feedback -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 02:32:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: feminist sf In-Reply-To: Maire Shanahan 's message of Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:04:40 EST Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I'd like to throw out another question for anyone out there who cares to reply. I am curious to know, since not all women are femiinsts, what sci fi books authored by females would not be considered "feminist" sci fi? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 07:46:25 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: antifeminist sf: Vazquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Arguably, Janet Morris, for one. Quite emphatically, Raylyn Moore (though I haven't read her one novel I'm aware of; her short stories are ferociously antifeminist). Taylor Caldwell. -----Original Message----- From: John Vazquez [mailto:BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET] I'd like to throw out another question for anyone out there who cares to reply. I am curious to know, since not all women are femiinsts, what sci fi books authored by females would not be considered "feminist" sci fi? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:06:54 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Dread "genre"s: Dall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Arguments, indeed, Kate! I've another Long Day full of work, but I think you short crime fiction as well; really, any form depends on its writer for what purposes it can be put to (to skitter over to film, CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON is an egalitarian argument in the form of an historical fantasy/romance/martial arts flick; well?). If a work is primarily fantastic, and not "realistically" extrapolative (as with much sf and some non-sf contemporary fiction) nor mimetically satiric (THE LOVED ONE by Waugh may be grotesque, but is essentially nonfantastic), I have difficulty seeing it as "not fantasy." Even if a twee Tom Robbins novel (nor a rancid William Vollman, nor an annoyingly arch and leaden T. C. Boyle) doesn't get the same attention from me as a deft William Kotzwinkle nor a solid Louise Erdrich's THE ANTELOPE WIFE, they are rather similar in approach, and all essentially fantasy...if they have a certain degree of fantastic content! (the 51% test?) My real problem with "genre" is that many seem to think only some, as opposed to all, fiction is part of one genre or several. Kathe Koja, actually. I was Very sleepy. TM -----Original Message----- From: Kate Dall [mailto:kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM] Todd suggested, as examples of politically interesting fantasy: >Ursula Le Guin, Jorge Luis Borges, Avram Davidson,Rachel Pollack >(particularly the short stories), Fritz Leiber (starting with his first >novel, CONJURE WIFE), A. A. Attanasio, Samuel Delany, Elizabeth Hand, Kathe Koje, Lisa Tuttle, and Harlan Ellison. And Angela Carter and her fantasticated magic realism is not meaningfully separated from fantasy for me. Fair enough, Todd. I haven't read all of the writers on this list, and only stuff I would classify as SF by LeGuin, Delany and Ellison. I think the major problem with this debate is that we are working with very different definitions of "fantasy". I tend to think of it as a genre defined by a marketing category, and I accept that this is rather narrow. However, I also think there are significant problems with expanding the category to include any writing which uses an element of "the fantastic" - as Dave points out, that includes practically all fiction ever written. There are good arguments for genre itself being a more reductive than enabling construct, but I'm not quite ready to ditch it quite yet - if nothing else, it can start some great arguments ;) I would never attempt to argue that all SF lives up to the potential of the genre, just that the genre itself does have more potential for subversion than many others (eg detective fiction as well as "fantasy"). -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:12:20 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: antifeminist sf: Vazquez--to answer the question as ked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Morris: the Silistra novels. Caldwell: several of her early novels, reviewed by Damon Knight in IN SEARCH OF WONDER. For whatever reason, MZ Bradley spent a lot of time separating herself from feminism, but didn't, really. A number of other skiffy folk who will probably come to mind, though most people seem to turn to fantastic fiction because they are dissatisfied with things as they are, and for the most part that's more likely to include feminists than their opponents, I suggest. At least among the women. Mary McCarthy (whose behavior in this wise parallels Bradley's) or Flo King seem to be welcomed elsewhere. TM -----Original Message----- From: Todd Mason Arguably, Janet Morris, for one. Quite emphatically, Raylyn Moore (though I haven't read her one novel I'm aware of; her short stories are ferociously antifeminist). Taylor Caldwell. -----Original Message----- From: John Vazquez [mailto:BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET] I'd like to throw out another question for anyone out there who cares to reply. I am curious to know, since not all women are femiinsts, what sci fi books authored by females would not be considered "feminist" sci fi? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 15:19:56 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: Dread "genre"s: fantasy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think Terry Pratchett himself is quite keen to be classified as a fantasy writer. A quote from him on the subject which is of relevance to the debate: ^ÓThere^Òs certainly a prejudice in some quarters against fantasy, but this tends to be from people who think it^Òs all swords and dragons ^Å. It seems to be suggested that fantasy is some kind of fairy icing when, from a historical point of view, it is the whole cake.^Ô Jane -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:32:33 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Feminist SF:genre classifications Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed There is a very nice page of definitions of SF at: http://www.panix.com/~gokce/sf_defn.html This includes my personal favorite, by the critic Darko Suvin: science fiction is the literature of cognitive estrangement. There is another, slightly overlapping page by Richard Treitel at: http://www.sirius.com/~treitel/sf.html which is very nice. He also has a page on the difference between fantasy and SF: http://www.sirius.com/~treitel/fantasy.html Danny _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:04:07 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: feminist sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'd like to throw out another question for anyone out there who cares to > reply. I am curious to know, since not all women are femiinsts, > what sci fi books authored by females would not be considered "feminist" > sci fi? There's been a lot of debate on this list about whether McCaffrey's books are feminist, especially the earlier Pern books. -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:54:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: feminist sf In-Reply-To: <12054-3A557894-4149@storefull-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:32 AM 1/5/01 -0500, you wrote: >I'd like to throw out another question for anyone out there who cares to >reply. I am curious to know, since not all women are femiinsts, >what sci fi books authored by females would not be considered "feminist" >sci fi? I don't consider ANY of Anne McCaffrey's books feminist (except maybe the Sassinak books, but I think Elizabeth Moon had a lot to do with that), and she has said herself many times that she is not a feminist. She has also said that she wanted to make SF a better place for women though, so that's a feminist idea, but I don't think she's done a very good job- except in opening the door for new authors. I'm not sure how I feel about MZB yet though. I've only read two of her books and at first, I thought they were sort of feminist, but the more I thought about it, the less convinced I was. Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:55:19 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: feminist sf In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010105124639.00b16d20@mail.superior.net> from "Jennifer R. J." at Jan 05, 2001 12:54:44 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer R. J. writes: > > I'm not sure how I feel about MZB yet though. I've only read two of >her books and at first, I thought they were sort of feminist, but the more >I thought about it, the less convinced I was. A certain chunk of MZB's Darkover books (_The Shattered Chain_, _Thendara House_, and _City of Sorcery_) are very much feminist, in a 1970's sort of way. I reread them a few years ago and was amazed at how well they held up for me; there was places which made me want to hiss & spit, and some pretty grating stereotyping of the Evil Men, but there's also a good deal of thought about what it's about to be a woman trying to get along with other women, what sisterhood as a concept really means, etc etc etc. Other chunks of her writing are more standard fantasy stuff (never mind the spaceships in the background) in which the women are just there to look nice and be angsted over. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:00:24 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: feminist sf In-Reply-To: <12054-3A557894-4149@storefull-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net> from "John Vazquez" at Jan 05, 2001 02:32:36 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Vazquez writes: > >I'd like to throw out another question for anyone out there who cares to >reply. I am curious to know, since not all women are femiinsts, >what sci fi books authored by females would not be considered "feminist" >sci fi? In trying to think of an answer to this, I ran smack into the difficulty of there being a great many books which, while not *anti*-feminist, don't seem particularly feminist to me. CJ Cherryh, for example; she's a fabulous author and I find her books fascinating, but feminist? For me her stuff doesn't score anywhere on the feminist scale, pro or con. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:31:30 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: antifeminist sf: Vazquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought the question was more asking which female authors were not feminist as in just not feminist- not necessarily *anti-feminist*? I can't recall any names, but I know I have read many, many that come into this category. I'm sure, getting back to my hypothetical bookshop, that if you went into any bookshop, the majority of the female authors in the sf&f section would not be feminist. Although they may not be quite as "male-point -of-view-dominated' as the male authors might be? Which is a good reason to give them preference, even if they aren't feminist. Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:38:27 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: antifeminist sf: Vazquez--to answer the question as ked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just read an anthology of stories set in Darkover, edited by MZB, 60's I think? Anyway, the intro, by MZB, was rather... hmmm.. she made it clear that she was very much against being called a feminist, using the old 'my being a woman has never stopped me' So I started thinking 'righto.. fair enough' but hen she turned right around and went on about how hard it is for women in sf/f. She obviously was not aware of any contradiction at all. Maybe there wasn't enough ''feminist consciousness' about then for her to be aware of the whole conundrum? Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:42:26 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: antifeminist sf: Vazquez--to answer the question as ked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry.... the anthology I was referring to was of stories set in Darkover but written by authors other than MZB, (mostly female, maybe all female? Actually) Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:40:21 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: antifeminist sf: Vazquez--to answer the question as ked In-Reply-To: <6b.e1a684f.2787b4f3@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Maire Shanahan wrote: > I just read an anthology of stories set in Darkover, edited by MZB, 60's I > think? Anyway, the intro, by MZB, was rather... hmmm.. she made it clear that > she was very much against being called a feminist, using the old 'my being a > woman has never stopped me' So I started thinking 'righto.. fair enough' but > hen she turned right around and went on about how hard it is for women in > sf/f. She obviously was not aware of any contradiction at all. Maybe there > wasn't enough ''feminist consciousness' about then for her to be aware of the > whole conundrum? > Maire > Whicxh of the fanthologies was it? And did it have a story by Patricia Shaw MAthews?> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:31:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: antifeminist sf: Vazquez--to answer the question asked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would interpret MZB's attitude as similar to that of other "pioneers in masculine country" who distanced themselves from feminism because they knew supporting it (or being perceived that way, even) would make what they were doing even more difficult. I was struck by this in reading a new release that's nonfiction, Julia A. Hunter's "Fly Rod Crosby: The Woman Who Marketed Maine." This sportswoman was at the peak of her activities in the 1890's, doing such decidedly nontraditional things as hunting caribou, fly fishing, canoeing - and holding Maine Guide Badge #1, the first such license ever issued. Yet to the end of her days she was firmly anti-suffrage, saying that she "had too much faith in this country's men to want to vote." Ask her biographer why THAT apparent contradiction, and Ms. Hunter will tell you that it appears "Miss Fly Rod" knew expressing any other opinion would cause her to lose many of her more useful friendships by turning her into a threat that she didn't otherwise present. MZB may be of far more recent vintage, but I suspect the same principle applies. Nina -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:44:20 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: MZB as intermittent feminist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" We may also keep in mind her desire to keep relatively little-known her pioneering writing about lesbian literature for THE LADDER back in the '50s, and the results of the discovery of her eventual ex-husband's activities as a child molester. I suspect she had rather mixed feelings about a number of issues. TM -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:31:31 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Feminist SF:genre classifications In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:32 AM 1/5/01 -0600, Daniel Krashin wrote: >There is a very nice page of definitions of SF at: >http://www.panix.com/~gokce/sf_defn.html > Thanks! One of the most relevant ramarks from this collection is Fred Pohl's: "If anyone were to force me to make a thumbnail description of the differences between SF and fantasy, I think I would say that SF looks towards an imaginary future, while fantasy, by and large, looks towards an imaginary past. Both can be entertaining. Both can possibly be, perhaps sometimes actually are, even inspiring. But as we can't change the past, and can't avoid changing the future, only one of them can be real." Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:37:23 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: feminist sf In-Reply-To: <3A55FE87.88743685@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:04 AM 1/5/01 -0800, Sandy Candioglos wrote: > >There's been a lot of debate on this list about whether McCaffrey's books >are feminist, especially the earlier Pern books. > I don't like endless sequels, so I haven't read those, but I was a fan of hers already, and I've had the pleasure of seeing her at a few cons. In person, I'd call her implicitly feminist; her choices and behavior take no account of othher peoples' notions of the proper limitations of her gender. Incidentally, she's a peripheral character in R. A. Macavoy's _Book of Kells_. The horse ranch the young woman works at is Anne's. Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:39:40 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: feminist sf In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010105124639.00b16d20@mail.superior.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:54 PM 1/5/01 -0500, "Jennifer R. J." wrote: > > I don't consider ANY of Anne McCaffrey's books feminist (except maybe Have you ever run into her short story "A Womanly Talent"? She was an Analog writer well before "second wave feminism". The original dragon story, which won a Hugo, was a Campbell story. Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:59:09 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: yet another Wiscon plug was Re: [*FSFFU*] antifeminist sf: Vazquez In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:31 PM 1/5/01 EST, Maire Shanahan wrote: >I thought the question was more asking which female authors were not feminist >as in just not feminist- not necessarily *anti-feminist*? I can't recall any >names, but I know I have read many, many that come into this category. I'm >sure, getting back to my hypothetical bookshop, that if you went into any >bookshop, the majority of the female authors in the sf&f section would not be >feminist. Although they may not be quite as "male-point -of-view-dominated' >as the male authors might be? Which is a good reason to give them preference, >even if they aren't feminist. They go to Wiscon (http://www.sf3.org/wiscon/) and party. Memorial Day weekend (May 25-28 this year) in Madison WI, right by the Capitol and the end of State St. (The Concourse Hotel) Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:06:46 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: feminist sf In-Reply-To: <3A55FE87.88743685@yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/5/01 10:04 AM, Sandy Candioglos at scandiog@YAHOO.COM wrote: >> I'd like to throw out another question for anyone out there who cares to >> reply. I am curious to know, since not all women are femiinsts, >> what sci fi books authored by females would not be considered "feminist" >> sci fi? > > There's been a lot of debate on this list about whether McCaffrey's books > are feminist, especially the earlier Pern books. > I perceive McCaffrey's earlier works as proto-feminist. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:08:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: antifeminist sf: Vazquez--to answer the question asked In-Reply-To: <000c01c07780$6f0e47e0$ac81e3d8@fpfzqlga> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/5/01 6:31 PM, Nina M. Osier at mbarron@MINT.NET wrote: > ever issued. Yet to the end of her days she was firmly anti-suffrage, > saying that she "had too much faith in this country's men to want to > vote." > > Ask her biographer why THAT apparent contradiction, and Ms. Hunter > will tell you that it appears "Miss Fly Rod" knew expressing any other > opinion would cause her to lose many of her more useful friendships by > turning her into a threat that she didn't otherwise present. MZB may > be of far more recent vintage, but I suspect the same principle > applies. Very insightful!! -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:56:49 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: woltonb Subject: Passion of new Eve MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of all of Carter's works, I think Passion of New Eve certainly comes closest to being 'Sci Fi', though I wondered at the time if she was in fact parodying certain aspects of Fem Sci Fi (in the nicest possible way!) In particular, the moments when Evelyn is turned into Eve, and Eves relationship with Tristessa (a woman-man and a man-woman who both look like women, but are in fact, both men). I am not sure I would class any of Carter's other work as Sci-Fi, though the part about the prison for women who had murdered their husbands in Nights at The Circus seemed slightly Sci Fi. Michelle Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: Jenelle Luntzel To: Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 1:54 AM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf > I've just finished reading The Passion of New Eve, by Angela Carter. Carter > has such a wide range in her writing, but I'm not certain if this work would > be classified as science fiction. Has anyone else read it? > > > >From: Kate Dall > >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > > > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf > >Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:00:32 -0000 > > > >I just gave my mother _Kindred_ for Christmas, in an attempt to persuade > >her > >that science fiction is worth reading, and is not entirely composed of > >shoot-em-up westerns in spaceships (I kind of like those too, but I didn't > >tell her that). > > > >According to the introduction in her edition (not the one I have), Butler > >has argued that the book is not science fiction, because there's no science > >in it. She calls it a "grim fantasy". I'm not sure I agree, but only > >because > >I solve the classification problem a little more subjectively: if I like it > >it's SF, if I don't it's fantasy. > > > >Regardless, anyone who liked _Kindred_ should definitely read _Parable of > >the Sower_, another very grim fantasy by Butler's definition, a great > >feminist SF novel by mine. > > > > > >>From: "Meether, Mikele" > >>Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >> > >>To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >>Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf > >>Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:44:30 -0500 > >> > >>I've recently discovered Octavia E. Butler - Kindred and Mind of My Mind > >>and > >>I'm tracking down more. I love her work, I think it leans more toward sci > >>fi rather then fantasy. What ever it is it's terrific. > >> > >>Mikele R. Meether > >>Academic Advisor > >>College of Arts & Sciences > >>Florida Gulf Coast University > >>590-7204 > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >>From: John Vazquez [mailto:BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET] > >>Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 1:21 AM > >>To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >>Subject: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf > >> > >>I'm a great fan of both feminist lit. and sci fi. Howerver I find that > >>the intersection of the two is somewhat blurry and I'm not sure how some > >>of my favorite authors would be classified. e.g. Marion Zimmer Bradley > >>and Andre Norton seem to be fantasy rather than sci fi, and Ursula > >>LeGuin seems to straddle both. I'd also love to hear of new authors in > >>this genre that are new to me. Any recommendations? John > >> > >>-------------------------------------------------- > >>This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > >>discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > >>unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > >>LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > >> unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >> > >>Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >> > >>-------------------------------------------------- > >>This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > >>discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > >>unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > >>LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > >> unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >> > >>Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > >-------------------------------------------------- > >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 19:59:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erica Obey Subject: Re: feminist sf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been reading the SF/fantasy debate,and figured I should throw in that I just gave a paper on OEB at the MLA conference, in order to discuss the way the line between genre and "literary" fiction is (in my mind unfairly) patrolled. But you think too long on the subject and you turn into Jacques Derrida on genre. In any case, I think she is a great writer, and I think most great writers that I admire (Bulgakov, Dostoevsky, Poe, Hoffmann to name a few arbitrarily) use genre in their work (whether it is crime,fantasy, etc.) Erica -----Original Message----- From: Meether, Mikele To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Date: Thursday, January 04, 2001 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf >I've recently discovered Octavia E. Butler - Kindred and Mind of My Mind and >I'm tracking down more. I love her work, I think it leans more toward sci >fi rather then fantasy. What ever it is it's terrific. > >Mikele R. Meether >Academic Advisor >College of Arts & Sciences >Florida Gulf Coast University >590-7204 > > -----Original Message----- >From: John Vazquez [mailto:BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET] >Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 1:21 AM >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: [*FSFFU*] feminist sf > >I'm a great fan of both feminist lit. and sci fi. Howerver I find that >the intersection of the two is somewhat blurry and I'm not sure how some >of my favorite authors would be classified. e.g. Marion Zimmer Bradley >and Andre Norton seem to be fantasy rather than sci fi, and Ursula >LeGuin seems to straddle both. I'd also love to hear of new authors in >this genre that are new to me. Any recommendations? John > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.