From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 15:29:49 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:28:04 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0101D" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 22:34:39 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Books Comments: To: Frances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've been sorry not to be able to get into Lois Buchold or Tanith Lee or > Elizabeth Moon (other than remnant Population) -- I tried several but they > didn't work for me. Or haven't so far -- who knows! Oh, man! You've tried to get into Bujold, and haven't been able to?! I'm sorry for you, really. They aren't all that super-deep, but are VERY enjoyable (at least, have been for me!). Can I ask which ones you tried to read? I can definitely see where if you didn't start at the beginning, they might not be quite as interesting....and if you're not even at ALL interested in romantic sub-plots, that might also be a point against her stuff (she recently won a Sapphire award for her latest Vorkosigan book, which is awarded to the best romance/SF crossover). I'm enjoying White as Snow by Tanith Lee so far, but I don't think I've read anything else of hers (or if I do, I don't remember, and it was probably a short story or two in an anthology). I haven't really been able to get into Elizabeth Moon, either, but I don't think I've tried Remnant Population; I'll have to check that out. Another great mixer of SF and romance (and another Sapphire winner) who manages to not totally offend my feminist sensibilites is Sharon Shinn; I really like the Jehovah series. Again, though, stay away if you don't appreciate a good romance! :) -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 04:31:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Kara Dalkey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I adored The Nightingale too and Goa: The Blood of the Goddess and I have all her other books also but I haven't read them yet! Amy > Has anyone read anything by Kara Dalkey? I have just finished her novel _The > Nightengale_ was just wondering if anyone had read any of her other novels. > > Christine > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 02:38:08 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Conservative Feminism (was: Re: Ashcroft) In-Reply-To: <200101220601.AAA70866@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I was originally going to stay out of this debate, but since it's not dying out, I'll wade it. Cindy Smith wrote: > The Classical Liberal/Modern Conservative > believes that government governs best that governs least, whereas > Modern Liberals tend to take the approach that government governs best > that tells people how to speak and how to act. Modern Liberals want > to support NOW's ideas about abortion rights, etc., whereas Classical > Liberals/Modern Conservatives champion the individual's right to > oppose abortion on demand on the theory that unborn children are > individual citizens too. There is a very serious inherent contradiction in your statements above. First you talk about preferring limits on government. Well, NOW wants government *not* to have a voice in decisions about abortion, they want the decision to remain with the woman who is considering having one (which IMHO is the only sane place for this decision to rest). Next you talk about "championing and individual's right to oppose abortion". If you oppose it, don't have one. The conservative idea about abortion has nothing to do with championing individual rights, it has everything to do with wanting the state taking away a woman's right to control her own body. How such an attitude have *anything* to do with giving rights to the individual. No one is forced to have an abortion. You want to force women not to have them. Like most other conservatives, you talk about giving people rights, but that's only the rights you deem appropriate, there's just as much taking away rights. Conservatives oppose the right for a woman to decide whether or not to have an abortion, the right to have free access to birth control (Ashcroft opposes that right also), & the right to be judged on your merits and not on your race (Ashcroft fails big on that particular issue). Conservatives are not for individual rights, except perhaps the rights of conservatives to force others to conform to their wishes. In contrast, liberals wish people to have a choice in how they behave. Liberals generally propose solutions that increase freedom for everyone. Conservatives are the ones who talk about more laws limiting individual freedom, rather hypocritical for a group who claims to be against "big government". Other than passing laws that allow the right to keep more of their money, I don't see conservatives increasing either rights or freedom for any group. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com Feminist, Liberal, Socialist -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 05:52:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Conservative Feminism (was: Re: Ashcroft) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here! Here! Amy > > There is a very serious inherent contradiction in your statements > above. First you talk about preferring limits on government. Well, > NOW wants government *not* to have a voice in decisions about > abortion, they want the decision to remain with the woman who is > considering having one (which IMHO is the only sane place for this > decision to rest). > > Next you talk about "championing and individual's right to oppose > abortion". If you oppose it, don't have one. The conservative idea > about abortion has nothing to do with championing individual rights, > it has everything to do with wanting the state taking away a > woman's right to control her own body. How such an attitude have > *anything* to do with giving rights to the individual. No one is > forced to have an abortion. You want to force women not to have > them. > > Like most other conservatives, you talk about giving people rights, > but that's only the rights you deem appropriate, there's just as > much taking away rights. Conservatives oppose the right for a > woman to decide whether or not to have an abortion, the right to > have free access to birth control (Ashcroft opposes that right also), > & the right to be judged on your merits and not on your race > (Ashcroft fails big on that particular issue). > > Conservatives are not for individual rights, except perhaps the rights > of conservatives to force others to conform to their wishes. In > contrast, liberals wish people to have a choice in how they behave. > Liberals generally propose solutions that increase freedom for > everyone. Conservatives are the ones who talk about more laws > limiting individual freedom, rather hypocritical for a group who > claims to be against "big government". Other than passing laws > that allow the right to keep more of their money, I don't see > conservatives increasing either rights or freedom for any group. > > > -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com > Feminist, Liberal, Socialist > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 02:59:17 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Conservative Feminism (was: Re: Ashcroft) In-Reply-To: <200101220601.AAA70866@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Cindy Smith wrote: > > John Vazquez, > > Human life begins at conception. Therefore, conceived unborn children > are human beings, and aborting such human beings constitutes > murder. You say this like it is in some way obvious. It's not. Some people feel that way, others don't. Some faiths feel that way, other's don't. Your saying this is true does not make it true, me saying it is false doesn't make it false. It is purely and simply a matter of opinion. As such perhaps the best place for the decision about such matters to lie is with individuals. Or, to look at in, another fashion, neither the law nor science can judge the truth or falsehood of this question. Whether or not a tiny blob of cells is a human or merely a potential human is nothing more or less than a spiritual & theological question. One of the inherent principles of our system of government is the separation of Church and state. Since this issue is solely a religious question, it should be left to individuals and individual faiths to work out. Excommunicating someone for having an abortion is within the purview of the Catholic Church. I don't approve of that action, but I'm not Catholic and have no right to decide this matter. OTOH, any church that attempts to turn their own doctrine on this issue into law is attempting to violate the separation of church and state. That I will oppose quite strongly. Theological questions should never become legal ones. Many conservatives attempt to break down this separation, by supporting religiously based restrictions on abortion and issues like mandatory school prayer (an exceedingly obvious violation of the separation of church and state). I have no wish to live in a theocracy. The founders of our nation had no wish for it to become a theocracy. Many conservatives are (in practice) attempting to turn the United Sates into a theocracy, and so I strongly oppose them. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:10:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Conservative Feminism (was: Re: Ashcroft) In-Reply-To: John Snead 's message of Mon, 22 Jan 2001 02:59:17 -0800 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cindy seems to get extremely upset with me for saying the same thngs as Mr Snead. But a least she doesn't call him a left wing bigot and hypocrate. So keep up the good work mr. Snead. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 09:44:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Tolley-Stokes Organization: ETSU Libraries Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: <3A6BD47E.FEC32035@yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 21 Jan 2001, at 22:34, Sandy Candioglos wrote: > > I've been sorry not to be able to get into Lois Buchold or Tanith > > Lee or Elizabeth Moon (other than remnant Population) -- I tried > > several but they didn't work for me. Or haven't so far -- who knows! > > Oh, man! You've tried to get into Bujold, and haven't been able to?! > I'm sorry for you, really. They aren't all that super-deep, but are > VERY enjoyable (at least, have been for me!). Can I ask which ones > you tried to read? You didn't ask *me* per se, but I shall answer anyway......... I finished reading Bujold's _Cordelia's Honor_ this weekend. My main complaint is the lack of romance between Cordelia and Aral. I found the dev. of their relationship rather spotty, and there were little if any displays of affection between them. However, I found the Barrayan society interesting and look forward to learning more about it in Bujold's subsequent books. Rebecca Tolley-Stokes -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 08:09:45 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Conservative Feminism (was: Re: Ashcroft) In-Reply-To: <16512-3A6C3F6F-663@storefull-167.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/22/01 7:10 AM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > Cindy seems to get extremely upset with me for saying the same thngs as > Mr Snead. But a least she doesn't call him a left wing bigot and > hypocrate. So keep up the good work mr. Snead. John, I think it's because she's probably cooled down a little and is trying to moderate her tone. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:01:53 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OK, I'm afraid I have to weigh in here. My great-great-grandfather was a Yale undergraduate, born in Connecticut, when the Civil War broke out in 1861. His maternal grandfather and great-grandfather both signed the New Hampshire Declaration of Independence in 1775--a full year before the U.S. DofI was written in Philadelphia, and fought throughout the War of Independence. George was an idealist who believed in state's rights. Born in Litchfield, CT, I'm not sure he'd ever seen a slave. But he took ship for New Orleans in April 1861, and joined the Louisiana artillery, to fight for state's rights. He fought throughout the war, and settled in SW Louisiana afterward. His granddaughter, my grandmother, married the son of an Irish immigrant grocer, Joseph, who enlisted in the Confeederate forces to fight for his new home, and survived at the Vicksburg siege. Neither my great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or fought for slavery. They fought for their country. I have had family members who fought for the US during the revolution, WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. I also have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and Joseph and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and coworkers. Marsha Valance Regional Librarian Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells St. Milwaukee, WI 53233 >>> ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM 01/21/01 06:18PM >>> on 1/21/01 1:49 PM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > Cindy, the confederate flag stands for a bunch of seditionists that > tried to overthrow the US it insults afican americans and if right > wingers are so enamored of a defeated flag that represents traitors to > our union, then wear it on your license plate put it in a museum or in > your back yard , but don,t force it on us african americans by flying it > over public buildings. What would people say if Germany insisted on > flying the swastika over their public buildings? John John's tone has been very sharp during this debate, and I've winced a couple of times over some of his remarks (as I have over some defensive and angry remarks made on the other side of the debate). I hesitate to characterize anyone's views with as much certainty as John and Cindy have done. There's too much none of us know about each other and why we feel and think the way we do, for me to be willing to take such strong positions based on a few phosphors on a screen written in haste and the heat of the moment. However, I agree wholeheartedly with John on this one. Flying the Confederate flag over public buildings is at best incredibly insensitive to African Americans, whose forebears were murdered, tortured, treated as property, and denied their basic humanity for generations, under that flag. Slavery only stopped when the Confederate flag came down. However much the current conservatives want to separate the Civil War from slavery, for the blacks whose ancestors were only freed when that war was won by the North, that connection cannot ever be severed. Pride in one's state and town of birth are natural. (I lived in east Texas for years, and loved the people and the culture, even while I had grave problems with the political and religious views that many people held. It's a state full of friendly and generous individuals.) But can you not see, Cindy, how making such a gesture of (white) Southern pride as flying the Confederate flag over public buildings, while knowing full well the feelings of humiliation and horror that evokes in the many African American citizens of those states, might be called racist? Insisting on flying the Confederate flag under such circumstances disowns the depth of evil that enslaving another human entails. A tangential but relevant question: who here has seen "Finding Forrester?" It's a moving and powerful movie about a young black man with a hidden gift. Among other things, the movie beautifully demonstrates just how modern-day prejudice (and other societal forces) work to keep African Americans (and other minorities) from realizing their true potential in our culture. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:07:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Subject: BDG Voting Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Everyone! Please send your votes for your FOUR (4) choices for the next BDG group read to me at...... not to the list!! You should receive a reply from me within 24 hours that I have received your votes. If you do not receive a confirmation from me, please let me know. We don't want anyone's votes to be lost in cyber space! :o) The voting period is from now until midnight, January 29th, USA, EST. The winners will be announced on Tues. Jan. 30th. Everyone please vote. Last selection period was so close it wasn't apparent until the very last moment which nominations were the winners! Your votes do count, (unlike in the USA presidential election ). The nominated books are listed below. Thanks! Terri Wakefield Final nominations (14): Dorothy Bryant: The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You. List Price: $11.95, Paperback Reprint edition (April 1997), Random House (Paper); ISBN: 0679778438 Octavia Butler: Lilith's Brood. Published by Warner Books - ISBN: 0446676101, retail price: 13.95 Keith Hartman: The Gumshoe, the Witch, and the Virtual Corpse. Meisha Merlin Publishing; ISBN: 1892065053; List Price $16.00 Nancy Kress: Beggars in Spain. Mass Market Paperback Reprint edition (March 1994), Avon; ISBN: 0380718774, $6.99US, also available as audio cassette Ursula K. Le Guin, Todd Barton, Margaret Chodos-Irvine, George Hersh: Always Coming Home (California Fiction). Amazon Price: $14.95, Paperback - 525 pages (February 5, 2001), Univ California Press; ISBN: 0520227352. This item will be published on February 5, 2001. Elizabeth A. Lynn: The Northern Girl. 470 pages, ISBN: 0441007279, List Price: $14 Louise Marley: The Terrorists of Irustan. List Price: $5.99, ISBN: 0441007430 Sharyn McCrumb: Bimbos of the Death Sun. List Price: $5.99, Mass Market Paperback - 212 pages, Reprint edition (February 1997), Ballantine Books; ISBN: 034541215X Maureen F. McHugh: Mission Child. List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 370 pages (November 9, 1999), Eos (Mass MMarket); ISBN: 0380791226 (UK edition Orbit, ISBN 1- 85723-861- 3, paperback 6.99 GBP) Vonda N. McIntyre: The Moon and the Sun. List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 496 pages (September 1998), Pocket Books; ISBN: 0671567667 Pat Murphy: The Falling Woman. List Price: $11.95, Paperback, Reprint edition (August 1993), Tor Books; ISBN: 0312854064. First published in 1986. Alice Nunn: Illicit Passage. Trade paperback, 250 pages. J. Neil Schulman: The Rainbow Cadenza. List Price: $27.50, Paperback - 394 pages (July 1999), Unknown; ISBN: 15884451238 Virginia Woolf: Orlando : A Biography. Paperback (December 1999), Wordsworth Edition; ISBN: 1853262390, $4.95 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 12:29:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: ashcroft - LONG POST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WOW! What a wonderful (sad) explanation----sudddenly everything becomes starkly clear! Thanks you for this-----now I can be more furious and frightened of Bush (his imperial majesty) and his evil cronies more than ever! Amy > > I do understand that there are many conservatives, private citizens, who > take in good faith that states' rights is what their political leadership > says it is. I certainly used to try to give the term, and the politicians > who used it, the benefit of the doubt. But I've gotten a real eye-opener > recently as I've done some reading on the years prior to the Civil War. > > The Civil War and the struggles that preceded it were about the appropriate > uses and boundaries of power in American society. And like a huge stone > dropped in a pond, the ripple effects from that conflict are still very much > a part of our lives. So it pays to understand the underlying causes. > > The current meme floated by conservative intellectual and political leaders > is that the South seceded from the Union to protect themselves against > federal abuses of power. They argue that the Civil War had nothing to do > with slavery per se', but about a larger issue: that of keeping the right > of self-determination and control at the more local level. This "local > representation" argument has broad popular appeal in our democratic society. > We're all too aware of the abuses tyrannies are capable of, so the argument > sounds good to us. > > Clearly, however, there is something else going on -- some kind of link > between the term "states' rights" and the Civil War -- that seems to bop > around the Zeitgeist and not get directly addressed. I never understood > this. Why was "states' rights" such a charged term? It reminded me a > little of an alcoholic or abusive family. There is almost always a dynamic > that appears to be about one thing, but is actually about something else. > The family members have arguments that to an outsider seem baffling, riddled > as they are with code words that seem to mean more, or other, than they > should. When you get a whiff of something like this, it's what's NOT being > said that is important to understand the true dynamic. > > So I did some research into the origins of the Civil War. And what I found > was quite startling. > > States' rights was definitely an issue before the Civil War, but not in the > way you might expect. During the decades before 1860, the South fought hard > in the federal courts (and succeeded) to institute federal case law forcing > Northern states to allow Southern states to kidnap blacks in the North and > return them to the South without interference (including not only escaped > slaves, but free blacks), in violation of Northern state laws. They also > litigated (and again succeeded, in the infamous Dred Scott decision in 1857) > to have it declared that Southerners were free to bring their slaves with > them to free states, keeping those slaves in bondage in defiance of Northern > state laws opposing slavery. The Court declared that no state had the right > to grant freedom and citizenship to such slaves, nor to prevent their entry > into the state. > > It was the _Northern_ states rebelling against being forced by federal law > to accept the existence of slavery in their own lands that led to Lincoln > being elected three years later, on a platform _not_ of abolishing slavery, > but of refusing to allow the South to continue to extend their slavery into > the North. > > It was the _South_ that used federal law, opposing states' rights to support > slavery. When it looked like they could no longer do so, they protected > slavery by seceding. > > After the Civil War, to regain political power, the Southern leadership > began to maintain that their struggle was over states' rights, not over the > issue of slavery. (Why did they choose "states' rights?" It's really all > they had to stand on, in terms of broader principles that potentially > friendly ears in the North could accept as also being in their interests. > I'll also note that it's a handy term for the losing side in the Civil War > to use, as it plays nicely into any lingering regrets and guilt the victors > might have.) But their underlying goals remain the same. > > The great power struggle in America is, and has been for the past 200+ > years, a struggle between those who want to carve out a ruling class for > themselves in America, and those who want America to be the land of > opportunity for everyone. > > The religious/political right's leadership comes solidly out of the > tradition of southern aristocracy. But in a country whose founding > principles are based on equal rights and access to the law, they have to > dress their message up so it'll taste better going down. > > Thus the term "states' rights" as it is used by conservative leaders is not > truly about protecting the states from federal abuses of power -- since > those who use the term are more than happy to use federal means when it > serves their ends. "States' rights" is merely code for keeping the American > aristocracy in power, via whatever means. As in this past election. > > > > -l. > -- > Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ON THE SHELVES--- > _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx > COMING SOON--- > "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 > _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue > A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:42:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Helen Thompson Subject: Re: ashcroft - LONG POST In-Reply-To: <097501c083cf$c1a8ada0$5a334f0c@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >WOW! What a wonderful (sad) explanation----sudddenly everything becomes >starkly clear! Thanks you for this-----now I can be more furious and >frightened of Bush (his imperial majesty) and his evil cronies more than >ever! Amy I second that thank you, Laura. And note with alarm that Bush is about to re-enact the gag rule, according to my newsfeed. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:58:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) In-Reply-To: Marsha Valance 's message of Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:01:53 -0600 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Well. farewell everyone; I have choen to unsubribe rTHER THAN THAN BE CENSORED AND< AFTER HAVING BEEN GIVEN AN "OFFICIAL" NOTICE TO FOR TAKING ISSUE AT THE ATTACKS UPON MY VIEWS , I WILL GO ELSEWHERE TO LOOK FOR MORE TOLERANT DISCOURSE JOHN -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 11:06:16 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: ashcroft - LONG POST In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/22/01 10:42 AM, Helen Thompson at helcat@SFF.NET wrote: >> WOW! What a wonderful (sad) explanation----sudddenly everything becomes >> starkly clear! Thanks you for this-----now I can be more furious and >> frightened of Bush (his imperial majesty) and his evil cronies more than >> ever! Amy > > I second that thank you, Laura. And note with alarm that Bush is about to > re-enact the gag rule, according to my newsfeed. You're both very welcome. Marsha, thanks for that different perspective on states' rights. I think the point you made is a good one, that in fact there are people using the term who are using it to mean the positive, unencoded form of it. I'm betting that, however, when people using the term in good faith hear those who are using it as code, they will not recognize the hidden meaning and will assume good faith on the latters' part, when in fact it is not being used in good faith by the radical right. What is the gag rule? -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:20:15 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Gagging and rights: Mixon-Gould MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" States, of course, don't have rights. Neither do nations. But that's another matter. The "gag rule" is to keep US funded health orgs from mentioning, much less providing, abortion services. The major difference between Twerp Gore, antiabortion guy until it was no longer possible to be a national Democrat as such, and Twerp Bush. TM -----Original Message----- From: Laura J. Mixon-Gould [mailto:ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM] Marsha, thanks for that different perspective on states' rights. What is the gag rule? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 13:23:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cindy, Have you ever tried Katherine Kurtz? Her Deryni books are fantasy novels set in an invented medieval analog of Wales/England in which there is a form of Christian magic that is very fascinating and spiritual without being preachy. She also manages to get the period detail and the splendor and squalor of the times right! As a person of Jewish background, believe me------this is a high recommendation because I have lots of issues with the 'Church'. Amy > > >What SF authors and books do you enjoy, Cindy? > > I like Leigh Brackett, particularly _The Long Tomorrow_. I also like > Ursula K. LeGuin, particularly _The Left Hand of Darkness_. I like > Walter M. Miller's _A Canticle for Leibowitz_. I like Marion Zimmer > Bradley, particularly the Darkover series. I like Tanith Lee. I very > much enjoy Madeleine L'Engle, especially _A Wrinkle in Time_ and > various sequels. I like Diane Duane, Diane Carey, J.C. Fontana, > James Tiptree, Jr. (the female author's real name escapes me at the > moment), especially _Radio Free Albamuth_ and other works. I like > Isaac Asimov, particularly the Foundation series and any robot > stories; I think the Three Laws of Robotics are based on or similar to > the Ten Commandments. Of course, I'm especially fond of the Bible, > particularly women's tales in the Bible, especially Genesis. I'm very > fond of references to a feminine God in the Bible (ask me for chapters > and verses another time). I like reading commentaries on the Bible, > especially the Jerome Biblical Commentary but others as well. I like > reading Augustine's _Confessions_ and _City of God_. I like Thomas > Aquinas's _Summa Theologica_ and _Summa Contra Gentiles_. I like > Teresa of Avila's _Interior Castle_. I like Julian of Norwich's > _Showings_. I like Catherine of Sienna. I'm particularly fond of > Little Saint Therese of the Child Jesus and her _Story of a Soul_. > Note that Saint Teresa of Avila and Saint Catherine of Sienna and > Little Saint Therese of the Child Jesus are all Doctors of the Church. > I like Andre Norton (any of her stories). I like J.A. Lawrence (the > wife of James Blish), and I also like James Blish. > > Those are just a few of the authors I like that come to mine. > > Who do you like to read? > > >Frances > > > Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter > GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia > cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion > cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off > cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:33:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Gagging and rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: Todd Mason 's message of Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:20:15 -0600 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I've tried contacting Laura to no avail, and wish to unsubsribe because of the pro conservatve anti-latino bias on this list. Others say the same thing as I do and I get "official warnings" Perhaps someone can give me a tip as to stop getting emails from this list??? John Vazquez -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:05:54 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Gagging and rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: <16712-3A6C7D09-1434@storefull-166.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/22/01 11:33 AM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > I've tried contacting Laura to no avail, and wish to unsubsribe because > of the pro conservatve anti-latino bias on this list. Others say the > same thing as I do and I get "official warnings" Perhaps someone can > give me a tip as to stop getting emails from this list??? John > Vazquez > John, to unsubscribe my understanding is that you simply need to send an email to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU with the word unsubscribe FEMINISTSF in the body of the message. I do regret that you're leaving the list. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:06:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Gagging and rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/22/01 11:20 AM, Todd Mason at Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM wrote: > The "gag rule" is to keep US funded health orgs from mentioning, much less > providing, abortion services. The major difference between Twerp Gore, > antiabortion guy until it was no longer possible to be a national Democrat > as such, and Twerp Bush. Thanks, Todd. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:11:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould >From: Todd Mason >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Gagging and rights: Mixon-Gould >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >States, of course, don't have rights. Amendment X: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. Perhaps we should say "states' powers"? >Neither do nations. >But that's another matter. >The "gag rule" is to keep US funded health orgs from mentioning, much less >providing, abortion services. The major difference between Twerp Gore, >antiabortion guy until it was no longer possible to be a national Democrat >as such, and Twerp Bush. I hope and pray that Bush appoints strict constructionist justices to the Supreme Court who will overturn Roe v Wade. >TM Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:15:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Books Amy, I have read some of the Deryni books by Katherine Kurtz. They're okay. If you like murder mysteries, you might like Elizabeth Ellis and her Cadfael series (I think it's a British tv show too). Cadfael is a former soldier who killed lots of people who became a monk, and as a monk solves lots of murder mysteries in 12th century England. I liked the novel, _A Morbid Taste for Bones_ which details the Church's sometimes strange desire for the preservation of relics. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 11:16:20 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: Kara Dalkey In-Reply-To: from "Christine Ethier" at Jan 21, 2001 03:31:29 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Ethier writes: > >Has anyone read anything by Kara Dalkey? I have just finished her novel _The >Nightengale_ was just wondering if anyone had read any of her other novels. I've read _Euryale_, which is I think late-80's and way out of print. It was an interesting historical fantasy set in the Roman Empire, involving a medusa/gorgon. I read _The Steel Rose_, the less about which is said, the better. I read _Nightingale_, and found it charming but was too familiar with the source material for it to really work for me as a novel. I also read _Little Sister_, which worked considerably better for me. None of these books ever stood out strongly enough for me to go find the rest of her novels, although checking Amazon it looks like there's quite a few I haven't read. I do remember really liking her short stories in the _Liavek_ collections, though. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:33:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Kara Dalkey In-Reply-To: <200101221916.LAA22215@idiom.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/22/01 12:16 PM, Cera Kruger at diony@IDIOM.COM wrote: > Christine Ethier writes: >> >> Has anyone read anything by Kara Dalkey? I have just finished her novel _The >> Nightengale_ was just wondering if anyone had read any of her other novels. > > I read _The Steel Rose_, the less about which is said, the better. Hmmm. Interesting. I _loved_ this one. I thought it was an interesting twist on the old legends of the fay, and I loved her portrayal of the city and how the old spirits infused themselves into the new ways of doing things. Oh, well. De gustibus. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:40:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: Cindy Smith 's message of Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:11:54 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cindy, I hope Littlte boy Bush ,with the 6thh grade vocabulary appoints justices to the court that will criminalize the racist confederate degenerate rag of yours. and Passes a constituional ammendment requiring abortion and re-education of the ignorant masses such as yourself. Why don't you move to a fascist country , which would be more to your liking? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 11:42:38 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you like murder mysteries, you might like Elizabeth Ellis and her > Cadfael series (I think it's a British tv show too). Cadfael is a > former > soldier who killed lots of people who became a monk, and as a > monk solves > lots of murder mysteries in 12th century England. I liked the novel, > _A Morbid Taste for Bones_ which details the Church's > sometimes strange > desire for the preservation of relics. > The correct author is Ellis Peters. Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:44:23 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: Cindy Smith 's message of Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:11:54 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cindy, do yourself a favor and read Kate Millett's The Politics Of Violence, you might learn something. Also Pat Califia's intro to Doc And Fluff. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:17:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: <009F6805.BCC5D040.24@dragon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:11 PM 1/22/01 -0500, you wrote: >I hope and pray that Bush appoints strict constructionist justices to >the Supreme Court who will overturn Roe v Wade. >Cindy Smith And I hope that he doesn't. Personally, I hope he doesn't because I believe women should have the right to chose and that a bunch of men shouldn't be the ones making decisions about women's reproductive rights (or lack thereof). And for the nation, I hope he doesn't because it would probably get him killed, or at the very least, get him into a lot of trouble with the people he represents. I have heard that about 70 percent of people in the US believe that women should have the right to choose an abortion in some cases- such as rape, incest, and the pregnancy causing danger to the mother. I am not sure what the percentage is of people who believe that women have a right to chose in any case though. If Roe V. Wade were overturned there would be many angry people and the President's job is to follow the will of the people to a certain extent, otherwise things start to look like a dictatorship. To keep this in topic to the list, I'm pretty new to feminist SF, and I was wondering if there are any books out there about women having no reproductive rights like things were in the past. I do know a little bit about The Handmaid's Tale and own it but have not read it yet. Are there other similar books anyone can point me toward? I'd really love to explore this issue further and maybe even write something of my own about it. Jennifer- wishing Lois McMaster Bujold's uterine replicators were an actuality -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:48:31 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: Kara Dalkey In-Reply-To: from "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" at Jan 22, 2001 12:33:35 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura J. Mixon-Gould writes: > >on 1/22/01 12:16 PM, Cera Kruger at diony@IDIOM.COM wrote: > >> Christine Ethier writes: >>> >>> Has anyone read anything by Kara Dalkey? I have just finished her novel _The >>> Nightengale_ was just wondering if anyone had read any of her other novels. >> >> I read _The Steel Rose_, the less about which is said, the better. > > >Hmmm. Interesting. I _loved_ this one. I thought it was an interesting >twist on the old legends of the fay, and I loved her portrayal of the city >and how the old spirits infused themselves into the new ways of doing >things. I am honestly not sure why I didn't like it; I generally like urban fantasy. IIRC there was something in the tone of the book which I found grating. I may have to give it a reread & see what I think. Really, despite all the negative posts lately, I read a number of books that I enjoy! >Oh, well. De gustibus. True, true. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:52:46 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jennifer, Another title you definite;y should read is Sheri Tepper's A GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY. Marsha Valance Regional Librarian Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells St. Milwaukee, WI 53233 >>> jenjavar@SUPERIOR.NET 01/22/01 02:17PM >>> At 02:11 PM 1/22/01 -0500, you wrote: >I hope and pray that Bush appoints strict constructionist justices to >the Supreme Court who will overturn Roe v Wade. >Cindy Smith And I hope that he doesn't. Personally, I hope he doesn't because I believe women should have the right to chose and that a bunch of men shouldn't be the ones making decisions about women's reproductive rights (or lack thereof). And for the nation, I hope he doesn't because it would probably get him killed, or at the very least, get him into a lot of trouble with the people he represents. I have heard that about 70 percent of people in the US believe that women should have the right to choose an abortion in some cases- such as rape, incest, and the pregnancy causing danger to the mother. I am not sure what the percentage is of people who believe that women have a right to chose in any case though. If Roe V. Wade were overturned there would be many angry people and the President's job is to follow the will of the people to a certain extent, otherwise things start to look like a dictatorship. To keep this in topic to the list, I'm pretty new to feminist SF, and I was wondering if there are any books out there about women having no reproductive rights like things were in the past. I do know a little bit about The Handmaid's Tale and own it but have not read it yet. Are there other similar books anyone can point me toward? I'd really love to explore this issue further and maybe even write something of my own about it. Jennifer- wishing Lois McMaster Bujold's uterine replicators were an actuality -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:07:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:52 PM 1/22/01 -0600, you wrote: >Jennifer, >Another title you definite;y should read is Sheri Tepper's A GATE TO >WOMEN'S COUNTRY. >Marsha Valance Thanks Marsha. I forgot to mention The Gate to Women's Country and other Tepper books in addition to The Handmaid's Tale. I do have Gate and plan to read it very soon. I've read seven of Tepper's books and she got me into feminist SF. I had been reading female centered, but not necessarily feminist books for many years already. Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:08:35 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have not as read any of Stephen Leigh's books- ie Speaking Stones- but he is always described in the blurb as 'in the tradition of Ursula le Guin, exploring gender, sexuality, society etc etc maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:09:38 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" and, of course, Joanna Russ's THE FEMALE MAN. -----Original Message----- From: Marsha Valance [mailto:Mvalan@MPL.ORG] Jennifer, Another title you definite;y should read is Sheri Tepper's A GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY. >>> jenjavar@SUPERIOR.NET 01/22/01 02:17PM >>> To keep this in topic to the list, I'm pretty new to feminist SF, and I was wondering if there are any books out there about women having no reproductive rights like things were in the past. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:11:20 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Also, what about Samuel Delaney? (male feminist sf) Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:59:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Gagging and rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" 's message of Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:05:54 -0700 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Thanks for your kind words Laura; many of you have written me hoping I tone it down rather than leave. I wll stay if Laura will let me. However i wonder if she hasn't already partially removed me since the last four messages I wrote have not been printed. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:48:38 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Gagging and rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: <28468-3A6CAD55-4999@storefull-163.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/22/01 2:59 PM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > Thanks for your kind words Laura; many of you have written me hoping I > tone it down rather than leave. I wll stay if Laura will let me. I'm glad, John. I think it's difficult for _all_ of us to talk about issues we feel passionately about with people who who feel equally passionately, and opposite to us, about the same issues. It's painful. It's hard to express the depth of our passion and beliefs -- to hold onto the values we're committed to without giving away pieces of ourselves for the sake of consensus -- and yet still leave room for disagreement. But I also think it's important to hang in there with each other and keep trying. It seems to me it's the only hope an ethnically and religiously diverse culture has of working. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:49:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:09 PM 1/22/01 -0600, you wrote: >and, of course, Joanna Russ's THE FEMALE MAN. Thanks. I think that is on my to read list, or at least Joanna Russ is. My friend suggested some feminist SF awhile ago too that I added to my to read list. The to read list seems like it keeps getting longer, even though I'm constantly reading. Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:43:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Books >From: Maryelizabeth Hart >Organization: Mysterious Galaxy >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Books >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >> If you like murder mysteries, you might like Elizabeth Ellis and her >> Cadfael series (I think it's a British tv show too). Cadfael is a >> former >> soldier who killed lots of people who became a monk, and as a >> monk solves >> lots of murder mysteries in 12th century England. I liked the novel, >> _A Morbid Taste for Bones_ which details the Church's >> sometimes strange >> desire for the preservation of relics. >The correct author is Ellis Peters. Of course, I meant Elizabeth Peters. She uses both names. >Maryelizabeth >Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 >7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 >San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 >http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: >mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:53:43 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Dueling "Peters"es and their Books: Smith after Har t MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sorry, Cindy, "Elizabeth Peters" is also "Barbara Michaels" (her legal name, Barbara Mertz, she puts most to her academic nonfiction), but "Ellis Peters" was Edith Pargeter. TM -----Original Message----- From: Cindy Smith [mailto:cms@DRAGON.COM] >The correct author is Ellis Peters. Of course, I meant Elizabeth Peters. She uses both names. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:41:06 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010122150841.00b36100@mail.superior.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:17 PM 1/22/01 -0500, "Jennifer R. J." wrote: > To keep this in topic to the list, I'm pretty new to feminist SF, and I >was wondering if there are any books out there about women having no >reproductive rights like things were in the past. I do know a little bit >about The Handmaid's Tale and own it but have not read it yet. Are there >other similar books anyone can point me toward? I'd really love to explore >this issue further and maybe even write something of my own about it. Frank Herbert's _The White Plague_ comes to mind. It's not precisely what yo're asking for, but somewhat close. Be warned, though, that it's very depressing (all the more for being so realistic and plausible, given its premise). Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:43:50 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/22/2001 2:15:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, cms@DRAGON.COM writes: << I have read some of the Deryni books by Katherine Kurtz. They're okay. If you like murder mysteries, you might like Elizabeth Ellis and her Cadfael series (I think it's a British tv show too). >> It's Ellis Peters. I've seen both the series and the book, personally I think the series is better. The books tend to be over romanticized. There are four series of the show. Each series has four epid. of around 90 min. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:46:56 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/22/2001 4:12:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, MaireShanahan@AOL.COM writes: << Also, what about Samuel Delaney? (male feminist sf) Maire >> And Clive Baker perhaps? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:00:45 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, Elizabeth Peters is Barbara Mertz, and is NOT Ellis Peters. Cindy Smith wrote: > >From: Maryelizabeth Hart > >Organization: Mysterious Galaxy > >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Books > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > >> If you like murder mysteries, you might like Elizabeth Ellis and her > >> Cadfael series (I think it's a British tv show too). Cadfael is a > >> former > >> soldier who killed lots of people who became a monk, and as a > >> monk solves > >> lots of murder mysteries in 12th century England. I liked the novel, > >> _A Morbid Taste for Bones_ which details the Church's > >> sometimes strange > >> desire for the preservation of relics. > > >The correct author is Ellis Peters. > > Of course, I meant Elizabeth Peters. She uses both names. > > >Maryelizabeth > > >Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 > >7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 > >San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 > >http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: > >mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com > > Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter > GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia > cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion > cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off > cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:02:43 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: title help? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What was the book released a few years ago about the underground midwives, where the protagonist went to prison for her "crimes?" Need more caffeine... Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:04:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez In-Reply-To: <8a.166b207.279e58b0@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:46 PM 1/22/01 -0500, you wrote: ><< Also, what about Samuel Delaney? > (male feminist sf) > Maire > >> > And Clive Baker perhaps? If you mean Clive Barker, I definitely agree. When everyone was saying that horror isn't feminist, I thought of my love of Clive Barker's books. He focuses more on fantasy now and has said he no longer enjoys writing horror very much, but he has always had strong female characters and I know he respects women. I've always wondered if his being gay makes him more sympathetic to women because he is a minority too. I've really loved some of the things he has said about how he feels about women in interviews and his character Tesla totally kicks butt. : ) Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 04:08:15 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed William Gibson is a feminist? Are you serious? I have not read all of the authors on your list, but I would have great difficulty categorising any of those I have read as unproblematically feminist. In fact, my reading of most of them has been limited by my perception of them as being completely unaffected by feminism, at best. Those I have read: 1. David Brin - Better informed opinions than mine have already taken on this argument. I can only add that I did not notice anything remotely feminist in the only novel of his I have read, _The Practice Effect_ . I did finish it, but it did not interest me enough that I could be bothered seeking out any of his other novels. 2. Sam Delaney - OK, Delaney is entirely plausible, although I have only read very early, pre-feminism stuff of his. For the time, it was memorable in that its portrayal of gender wasn't actually offensive. So I am very prepared to believe his later stuff is feminist, although I would have to read it before making a positive argument. 3. Greg Bear - I wasn't offended by _Blood Music_ or _Eon_, but I don't remember anything in either of them that I would call particularly feminist. What kind of thing did you have in mind, Amy? 4. John Varley - only read one, possibly called _Millennium_? Interesting style, intelligent writing, but again, I wouldn't hold it up as an example of feminist writing. However, his work has been used in very interesting ways, by clearly feminist writers such as Donna Haraway. So I'm prepared to give the rest of his work the benefit of the doubt. 5. Raymond Feist - this is a joke, right? 6. William Gibson - OK, I am curious about this one. Unless Gibson's work has changed a hell of a lot since last I threw it across the room in disgust I see absolutely no possibility of characterising it as feminist. I'd really like to know what it is about his novels that you were thinking of when you included him in this list. I must admit, I do find it difficult to think of any male SF writers whose inclusion on such a list I would be happy to defend. The closest would probably be Kim Stanley Robinson, who has addressed certain issues in ways which have helped me develop my own feminist views. And, yet again, Terry Pratchett, who has, in my view, done some very astute (as well as very funny) feminist criticism of fantasy cliches. Kate. Amy Harlib wrote: >Yes! deLint qualifies also Dave Duncan, Samuel Delany, Jack Vance, James >Schmitz (he was doing feisty women back in the 50s!), David Brin , Greg >Bear, Greg Benford, John Varley, George R. R. Martin , Michael Moorcock, >Michael Swanwick, Raymond Feist in collaboration with Janny Wurts, Walter >John Williams, William Gibson, Bruce Sterling------hows that for starters! >Amy > >Also, are there any feminist MALE sci-fi writers? Does > > Charles DeLint qualify?? > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:01:06 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Tiptree, book suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > And, Mary Elizabeth, I think it might be interesting to look at > Tiptree's Brightness with an eye towards first contact themes -- at > least it deals with the negative fallout of very bad first contacts.... > Thanks, Rudy! That's a great idea -- we have only read her short stories, so BRIGHTNESS would be a great choice! Thanks to all who made suggestions. Alison: FRESCO is a great suggestion, but we have read Tepper twice (GATE and FAMILY TREE) and I try to mix authors up as much as possible. I've heard great things about LAST HOT TIME, but try to avoid hardcovers -- these are people who get a new book every two weeks on my say-so. GALVESTON is a great suggestion! I loved it, and although we read MOCKINGBIRD, it's been a while... Margaret: We have done COLOR OF DISTANCE and THE SPARROW in the past. :) Todd, buddy: good suggestions -- can you come up with something else for horror? We did ANNO DRACULA, and I didn't care for his others. Chris: I try to avoid UK editions for the same reason I try to avoid hard covers, but thanks! Susan: That's a good idea as well, but we did a Le Guin not too long ago... > _The Word for World is Forest_ by Leguin comes to mind > I am thrilled by the number of suggestions that overlap books or authors we have read -- makes me feel like I'm doing a pretty good job of selecting. Pax, Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:22:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010122194106.01cc52f0@pop.enteract.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:41 PM 1/22/01 -0600, you wrote: >Frank Herbert's _The White Plague_ comes to mind. It's not precisely what >yo're asking for, but somewhat close. Be warned, though, that it's very >depressing (all the more for being so realistic and plausible, given its >premise). >Neil Rest Thanks for the suggestion. And thanks to everyone else as well. I happen to have all but one of the books suggested, so I feel lucky. I'll let everyone know what I think of the books after I read them. Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:42:07 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: In-Reply-To: <200101230600.AAA69320@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT John Vazquez wrote: > Cindy, I hope Littlte boy Bush ,with the 6thh grade vocabulary > appoints justices to the court that will criminalize the racist > confederate degenerate rag of yours. and Passes a constituional > ammendment requiring abortion and re-education of the ignorant masses > such as yourself. Why don't you move to a fascist country , which > would be more to your liking? Look, I am likely as disgusted by Cindy Smith's comment about overturning Roe v Wade as you are. The whole idea is barbaric. *However*, she has not verbally attacked you. She has merely expressed views many of us here consider deeply wrong. You on the other hand have been verbally abusive towards her. That's wrong, please stop. Would you speak to someone in person like that? If not, then don't do so on the internet. Keeping a certain minimum standard of politeness and decency is the only way to maintain civil discourse here. If I were you I would apologize for the Ad Hominem attack you just made (although not for your views, which are an entirely separate matter, and with which I agree). Telling ultra-conservatives and others you disagree with that you want them to suffer merely makes them mad. Such statements change nothing and makes you look vulgar and uncivilized. Civil discourse may change minds, violent outbursts never do. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:56:34 +0000 Reply-To: edward.james@newscientist.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Snead wrote: > John Vazquez wrote: > > > Cindy, I hope Littlte boy Bush ,with the 6thh grade vocabulary > > appoints justices to the court that will criminalize the racist > > confederate degenerate rag of yours. and Passes a constituional > > ammendment requiring abortion and re-education of the ignorant masses > > such as yourself. Why don't you move to a fascist country , which > > would be more to your liking? > > You on the other hand have been verbally abusive towards her. > That's wrong, please stop. Would you speak to someone in > person like that? If not, then don't do so on the internet. Keeping > a certain minimum standard of politeness and decency is the only > way to maintain civil discourse here. > Well said, Mr Snead! Edward James -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 06:16:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this personal information is FASCINATNG! Amy > OK, I'm afraid I have to weigh in here. My great-great-grandfather was a Yale undergraduate, born in Connecticut, when the Civil War broke out in 1861. His maternal grandfather and great-grandfather both signed the New Hampshire Declaration of Independence in 1775--a full year before the U.S. DofI was written in Philadelphia, and fought throughout the War of Independence. George was an idealist who believed in state's rights. Born in Litchfield, CT, I'm not sure he'd ever seen a slave. But he took ship for New Orleans in April 1861, and joined the Louisiana artillery, to fight for state's rights. He fought throughout the war, and settled in SW Louisiana afterward. His granddaughter, my grandmother, married the son of an Irish immigrant grocer, Joseph, who enlisted in the Confeederate forces to fight for his new home, and survived at the Vicksburg siege. Neither my great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or fought for slavery. They fought for their country! > . I have had family members who fought for the US during the revolution, WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. I also have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and Joseph and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and coworkers. > > > Marsha Valance > Regional Librarian > Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped > 813 West Wells St. > Milwaukee, WI 53233 > > > >>> ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM 01/21/01 06:18PM >>> > on 1/21/01 1:49 PM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > > > Cindy, the confederate flag stands for a bunch of seditionists that > > tried to overthrow the US it insults afican americans and if right > > wingers are so enamored of a defeated flag that represents traitors to > > our union, then wear it on your license plate put it in a museum or in > > your back yard , but don,t force it on us african americans by flying it > > over public buildings. What would people say if Germany insisted on > > flying the swastika over their public buildings? John > > > > > John's tone has been very sharp during this debate, and I've winced a couple > of times over some of his remarks (as I have over some defensive and angry > remarks made on the other side of the debate). I hesitate to characterize > anyone's views with as much certainty as John and Cindy have done. There's > too much none of us know about each other and why we feel and think the way > we do, for me to be willing to take such strong positions based on a few > phosphors on a screen written in haste and the heat of the moment. > > However, I agree wholeheartedly with John on this one. Flying the > Confederate flag over public buildings is at best incredibly insensitive to > African Americans, whose forebears were murdered, tortured, treated as > property, and denied their basic humanity for generations, under that flag. > Slavery only stopped when the Confederate flag came down. However much the > current conservatives want to separate the Civil War from slavery, for the > blacks whose ancestors were only freed when that war was won by the North, > that connection cannot ever be severed. > > Pride in one's state and town of birth are natural. (I lived in east Texas > for years, and loved the people and the culture, even while I had grave > problems with the political and religious views that many people held. It's > a state full of friendly and generous individuals.) But can you not see, > Cindy, how making such a gesture of (white) Southern pride as flying the > Confederate flag over public buildings, while knowing full well the feelings > of humiliation and horror that evokes in the many African American citizens > of those states, might be called racist? Insisting on flying the > Confederate flag under such circumstances disowns the depth of evil that > enslaving another human entails. > > A tangential but relevant question: who here has seen "Finding Forrester?" > It's a moving and powerful movie about a young black man with a hidden gift. > Among other things, the movie beautifully demonstrates just how modern-day > prejudice (and other societal forces) work to keep African Americans (and > other minorities) from realizing their true potential in our culture. > > > > > > -l. > -- > Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ON THE SHELVES--- > _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx > COMING SOON--- > "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 > _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue > A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 06:47:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I prefer fantastic fiction to murder mysteries. We will never agree politically I'm afraid even when we share the same taste in fantasy or SF. Amy > Amy, > > I have read some of the Deryni books by Katherine Kurtz. They're okay. > If you like murder mysteries, you might like Elizabeth Ellis and her > Cadfael series (I think it's a British tv show too). Cadfael is a former > soldier who killed lots of people who became a monk, and as a monk solves > lots of murder mysteries in 12th century England. I liked the novel, > _A Morbid Taste for Bones_ which details the Church's sometimes strange > desire for the preservation of relics. > > > Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter > GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia > cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion > cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off > cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:09:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Gagging and rights: Mixon-Gould MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit YAY! You're still here-----I just got this message and the previous ones! Amy > Thanks for your kind words Laura; many of you have written me hoping I > tone it down rather than leave. I wll stay if Laura will let me. > However i wonder if she hasn't already partially removed me since the > last four messages I wrote have not been printed. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:41:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > 2. Sam Delaney - OK, Delaney is entirely plausible, although I have only > read very early, pre-feminism stuff of his. For the time, it was memorable > in that its portrayal of gender wasn't actually offensive. So I am very > prepared to believe his later stuff is feminist, although I would have to > read it before making a positive argument. > > 3. Greg Bear - I wasn't offended by _Blood Music_ or _Eon_, but I don't > remember anything in either of them that I would call particularly feminist. > What kind of thing did you have in mind, Amy? His women characters always seemed strong and as fully developed as his male characters. > > 4. John Varley - only read one, possibly called _Millennium_? Interesting > style, intelligent writing, but again, I wouldn't hold it up as an example > of feminist writing. However, his work has been used in very interesting > ways, by clearly feminist writers such as Donna Haraway. So I'm prepared to > give the rest of his work the benefit of the doubt. Millenium is the WORST thing Varley ever wrote-----give his other work a try. > > 5. Raymond Feist - this is a joke, right? Feist wrote a trilogy with Janny Wurts, The Empire Trilogy in which the protagonist was Mara, a wonderful strong woman (with many interesting supporting characters)----Wurts probably had a lot to do with that. Best things Feist ever put his name to. > > 6. William Gibson - OK, I am curious about this one. Unless Gibson's work > has changed a hell of a lot since last I threw it across the room in disgust > I see absolutely no possibility of characterising it as feminist. I'd really > like to know what it is about his novels that you were thinking of when you > included him in this list. > Check out the women in Virtual Light, Idoru and All Tomorrow's Parties his 3 most recent books-----a radical improvememt ove what went before. > > I must admit, I do find it difficult to think of any male SF writers whose > inclusion on such a list I would be happy to defend. The closest would > probably be Kim Stanley Robinson, who has addressed certain issues in ways > which have helped me develop my own feminist views. And, yet again, Terry > Pratchett, who has, in my view, done some very astute (as well as very > funny) feminist criticism of fantasy cliches. Agree about Robinson and Pratchett! Amy > > Kate. > > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:45:12 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Genealogy is fascinating--I started on it when "Roots" was on TV. George reminds me of my brother Michael, who throws himself 1000% into anything he believes in, and damn the consequences. I also found out that one of my ancestors founded Sudbury, and his son was killed & scalped on the Worcester Turnpike (Route 20) during King Philip's War. Wish I'd known that when I lived there. Take care, Marsha -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:11:06 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/22/2001 11:09:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << And, yet again, Terry Pratchett, who has, in my view, done some very astute (as well as very funny) feminist criticism of fantasy cliches. >> Terry Pratchett, I think, has just about mocked everything, and yet makes some very good comments on society. I think he is feminist. Look at the witches. I love Perdita for it is refreshing to read a book where one of the main characters is not "willowly", or ravishing beautiful. Truth be told, women writers are just as gulity of this as men. Have you read Pratchett's latest Discworld _The Truth_ yet? And his non discworld novels? Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:03:59 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/22/01 9:08 PM, Kate Dall at kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: Kate, I agree with you that a lot of authors that others have listed I wouldn't characterize as feminist. I also distinguish between feminist works (which deal directly with issues of women, reproduction, gender, power, etc.) and works that have good and interesting female characters.... it's a continuum, but I don't consider them identical. > 4. John Varley - only read one, possibly called _Millennium_? Check out the trilogy he wrote in the 70s/80s. First book was called TITAN. A wonderful work, and it definitely had some strong feminist elements. Also, a lot of his short fiction, again in stuff I read in the 80s, did some interesting explorations of gender. Characters could (and did) swap gender at will, and it made for interesting relationship dynamics.... > I must admit, I do find it difficult to think of any male SF writers whose > inclusion on such a list I would be happy to defend. The closest would > probably be Kim Stanley Robinson, who has addressed certain issues in ways > which have helped me develop my own feminist views. Agreed. Also, check out Steven Leigh's work. He wrote a terrific book I just read whose title I keep forgetting that, in addition to being feminist to the max, is a wonderful anthropological work, and a really good mystery too. (Can someone help me out with the title? It's been mentioned here fairly recently) Also, you might check out Steven Gould (in the interests of full disclosure, he's my husband. But he actively seeks out female and feminist writers' critiques of his work, to make sure he's getting it right). He's written stories with very strong and interesting female characters, and he certainly deals with feminist issues in his works, though I'm not sure you would argue they are at the center of all his works. In particular, check out BLIND WAVES. Also HELM and WILDSIDE (JUMPER, his first and best-known work, has sympathetic female characters but his later works explore women's issues a little better, I think). -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:49:34 +0000 Reply-To: edward.james@newscientist.net Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Edward James Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Ethier wrote: > In a message dated 1/22/2001 11:09:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, > kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > << And, yet again, Terry > Pratchett, who has, in my view, done some very astute (as well as very > funny) feminist criticism of fantasy cliches. > >> > > Terry Pratchett, I think, has just about mocked everything, and yet makes > some very good comments on society. I think he is feminist. Look at the > witches. I love Perdita for it is refreshing to read a book where one of the > main characters is not "willowly", or ravishing beautiful. Truth be told, > women writers are just as gulity of this as men. > > Have you read Pratchett's latest Discworld _The Truth_ yet? And his non > discworld novels? > > Chris Or, indeed, has anyone read the Science Fiction Foundation's collection of critical essays on Terry Pratchett: _Terry Pratchett: Guilty of Literature_ (2000), edited by Andrew M. Butler, Farah Mendlesohn, and me...? There's a chapter on the witches. End of publicity announcement... Edward James > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:38:57 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Misha Bernard Subject: WisCon 25 Room Sharing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all if you have a moment while the list is very active, and are planning on going to WisCon this year (Memorial Day weekend, in Madison, WI US) are you interested in sharing a room? We've already got two women, and we are looking for a third to share the room ($87/night up to 4 people + taxes, each will be listed separately on the reservations). E-mail me if you're interested- at least one of us is coming in Th and leaving Monday. As for WisCon- I really would encourage anyone just thinking about trying it out to come! I went for the first time last year- prompted by the chance to share rooms- and it was great. Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:39:30 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould >What was the book released a few years ago about the underground >midwives, where the protagonist went to prison for her "crimes?" You're thinking of: The Misconceiver by Lucy Ferriss >From Kirkus Reviews , May 15, 1997 A pleasantly unpolemical, if plodding, novel about a 21st-century abortionist who's haunted by the memory of her political-activist sister. It's the year 2026, and the world is a Gingrichian vision of high-tech gadgetry and conservative social values. Abortion is illegal and birth control scarce--as much from fear of declining birth rates among the white middle class as from Christian moral precepts. In this repressive but nominally democratic America, Phoebe has a day job as a computer debugger; secretly, she performs ``misconceptions,'' as illicit abortions are called. No abortion- rights crusader, Phoebe refers to her work as ``killing babies'' and continues mainly to carry on the legacy of her spirited older sister, Marie, a ``misconceiver'' who died in jail. Phoebe's brother and mother are also dead, and her father suffers from advanced Alzheimer's, so when the suicide of a 12-year-old incest victim throws her into a moral crisis, she turns to her widowed sister-in-law, Roxanne, for a place to lie low for a while. But while visiting Roxanne in California, Phoebe is moved by the plight of Roxanne's teenage daughter, Christel, who's facing an unwanted pregnancy. With the help of Roxanne's fiancé^Â Arthur, a doctor, Phoebe performs an abortion on her niece--and Phoebe and Arthur begin an affair. Arriving back home in Utica, Phoebe is immediately arrested and must figure out who has betrayed her. Was it Arthur, one of the friends or colleagues in whom she's confided, or perhaps a traitor in the underground community of abortion providers? Then a fellow prisoner helps her escape, and Phoebe has to consider how far she wants to go in service of Marie's cause. Ferriss (Against Gravity, 1996, etc.) worthily acknowledges the complexities of the abortion debate, and her dystopia, if not wildly original, is thoroughly imagined--yet ultimately the tale remains constrained by its narrow focus and muddled plot. -- Copyright ©1997, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved. I don't agree with Kirkus. I didn't find the book plodding or muddled rather a fascinating look at the results of conservative politics. Handmaid's Tale, a book I also deeply respect, is set in a far distant, much more stylized and easy to dismiss future. The future of The Misconceiver could be just around the corner. The author writes: " I'd like The Misconceiver to be read, not as a "dystopia" or science fiction, but as a scenario that just barely pushes the edge of present-day possibility to uncover one woman's moral choice." Joyce -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:08:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kirsten Hoyte Subject: Re: Gagging and Rights: Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: <006201c08574$34e38380$2aaaea18@lvcm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU writes: >The author writes: " I'd like The Misconceiver to be read, not as a >"dystopia" or science fiction, but as a scenario that just barely pushes >the >edge of present-day possibility to uncover one woman's moral choice." If you are interested in the topic of reproductive rights, you might find the dystopian movie "Rain Without Thunder" interesting. It imagines the results when women are put in prison on suspicion of having had an abortion. The movie explores the effects on privacy of prosecuting suspected abortions. The part that interested me the most was the way the movie tried to take into account racial politics. Kirsten -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 13:46:13 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Long way to go in the real life dept.; a sliver of FSF mentioned MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C08542.DA11A8A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C08542.DA11A8A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just heard they carried out the 100 lashes on that girl in Nigeria for = having premarital sex with 3 men her father told her to have sex with. = I am reminded in the moment I hear about this story is that as a woman, = I was born into one of the most fortunate societies on the planet, = despite the politics, and all the discussion over rights that we have = not lost yet. You cannot use as an excuse being in such a fortunate = position that such stories of human abuse have nothing to do with = yourself, we make up half the species on the planet, it is about us in = the end I think at least. One way I respond to such conditions is to = create fiction and collages that reflect the pain, and the rage, and the = sadness, with a sliver of hope tossed in for good measure. =20 And yes I saw the Oprah show with Madeline Albright and intend to check = out the links for helping those charities mentioned on her show and = webpage. Within the caste system of India there is a charity that has = worked out a way to help women who were rescued from sex slave = situations, by giving the girl a goat or a cow to sustain herself, then = when the animal has offspring, they are given back to the charity for = the next girl in need, and the chain of help goes onward. Anyway, there = has to be some semblence of hope after hearing about this young woman in = Nigeria. In some minds of authors such as Butler and Atwood, the = writing is their outlet for dealing. Where do we get such ideas of dark = experience for a woman character to experience if not real life? Jo Ann ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C08542.DA11A8A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just heard they carried out the 100 = lashes on=20 that girl in Nigeria for having premarital sex with 3 men her father = told her to=20 have sex with.  I am reminded in the moment I hear about this story = is that=20 as a woman, I was born into one of the most fortunate societies on the = planet,=20 despite the politics, and all the discussion over rights that we have = not lost=20 yet.  You cannot use as an excuse being in such a fortunate = position that=20 such stories of human abuse have nothing to do with yourself, we make up = half=20 the species on the planet, it is about us in the end I think at=20 least. One way I respond to such conditions is to = create fiction=20 and collages that reflect the pain, and the rage, and the sadness, with = a sliver=20 of hope tossed in for good measure.   
 
And yes I saw the Oprah show with = Madeline Albright=20 and intend to check out the links for helping those charities mentioned = on her=20 show and webpage.  Within the caste system of India there is a = charity that=20 has worked out a way to help women who were rescued from sex slave = situations,=20 by giving the girl a goat or a cow to sustain herself, then when the = animal has=20 offspring, they are given back to the charity for the next girl in need, = and the=20 chain of help goes onward.  Anyway, there has to be some semblence = of hope=20 after hearing about this young woman in Nigeria.  In some minds of = authors=20 such as Butler and Atwood, the writing is their outlet for = dealing.  Where=20 do we get such ideas of dark experience for a woman character to = experience if=20 not real life?
 
Jo Ann
 
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C08542.DA11A8A0-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:00:37 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Christine Ethier wrote: >Terry Pratchett, I think, has just about mocked everything, and yet makes >some very good comments on society. I think he is feminist. Look at the >witches. I love Perdita for it is refreshing to read a book where one of >the >main characters is not "willowly", or ravishing beautiful. Truth be told, >women writers are just as gulity of this as men. > >Have you read Pratchett's latest Discworld _The Truth_ yet? And his non >discworld novels? No to _The Truth_. I force myself to wait for paperback. I've read _Dark Side of the Sun_ and was entertained but not particularly impressed. I'm not hugely fond of the early Discworld novels either, though - he doesn't really get into stride until _Wyrd Sisters_, IMO. After that, of course, I'm completely addicted. As far as his female characters go, my favourite is Susan. Of course, Perdita/Agnes, the rest of the witches, Angua the token w- w- w- werewolf and Cheery Littlebottom are pretty cool too... Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:03:56 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/23/01 1:06:09 PM, ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM writes: << I also distinguish between feminist works (which deal directly with issues of women, reproduction, gender, power, etc.) and works that have good and interesting female characters.... it's a continuum, but I don't consider them identical. >> I think you nailed the serpent by its tail here. There are many many books which have strong female protagonists but don't deal with larger feminist issues, so are not considered feminist. The early stuff we read (and younger readers now read now and then) empowered many of us, even though they were not what we can call *feminist* because they showed us women of integrity, power, kick-ass strength. Yes! I said, and I think many on this list would agree. I can't throw away those early heroines because they encouraged me. LeGuin did, and others. *I* changed as a result. And if they didn't, so what? As I said above, I think you have stated the problem succinctly. best, phoebe wray -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:50:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gwen Veazey Subject: feminist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C08586.8C4DE180" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C08586.8C4DE180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just wanted to follow-up on an earlier post of mine: The terms I was = trying to remember are "equity feminists" for the conservative folk, and = "gender feminists" for more traditional feminists. Don't know who = originated the labels, but I read that Christina Hoff Somers and Camille = Paglia (with whom I do not agree on issues) use these terms. I'm happy we're back on books now. Was the Stephen Leigh book someone = was trying to remember_ Dark Water's Embrace_? I'ts next on my list to = read. Best to all, Gwen ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C08586.8C4DE180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just wanted to follow-up on an earlier post of = mine: =20 The terms I was trying to remember are "equity feminists" for the=20 conservative folk, and "gender feminists" for more traditional = feminists. =20 Don't know who originated the labels, but I read that Christina Hoff = Somers and=20 Camille Paglia (with whom I do not agree on issues) use these=20 terms.
 
I'm happy we're back on books now.  Was the = Stephen Leigh=20 book someone was trying to remember_ Dark Water's Embrace_?  I'ts = next on=20 my list to read.
 
Best to all,
Gwen
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C08586.8C4DE180-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:54:45 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kate Dall wrote (re Pratchett) >As far as his female characters go, my favourite is Susan. Yes: I do wish he'd use her again. She runs a very close third to Granny and Nanny for me. "Hogfather" is one of my favorites, and I'm re-reading "Soul Music" at the moment. I don't think "The Truth" is one of his strongest. I like the Johnny trilogy, the second and third more, and Good Omens (with Neil Gaimen) is great fun, especially if you grew up reading Richmal Crompton's "Just William" series. I have no doubt whatever of Pratchett's feminist credentials Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:57:47 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone read C.L. Moore's "Jirel of Joiry" stories? I read them as anthologies mixed with "Northwest of Earth", and didn't know the author was female. My memory of them is rather hazy. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:09:17 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/23/2001 6:02:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << I'm not hugely fond of the early Discworld novels either, though - he doesn't really get into stride until _Wyrd Sisters_, IMO. After that, of course, I'm completely addicted. >> I would agree with that assesment. Of his non discworld novels I would have to say The Johnny Maxwell triology is excellent. Have you seen a copy of The Science of Discworld? I picked up a copy in Holland over the summer. What Prachett and his co-writers do is use a discworld story to explain scienitfic concepts. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:39:38 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF In-Reply-To: <019e01c085b1$76eb1f80$ac716420@fpgcswgi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:57 PM 1/23/01 -0500, Frances wrote: >Has anyone read C.L. Moore's "Jirel of Joiry" stories? I read them as >anthologies mixed with "Northwest of Earth", and didn't know the author was >female. My memory of them is rather hazy. > Sure, great pulp stuff! Do you mean "Northwest Smith", though? Another great pulp character. Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:41:42 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for posting about this issue, it brought back the memory of my first conference three years ago. After my presentation a man asked what makes FSF any different than other qualities he finds in the broader field of Science Fiction, just replace the male character with a female and you are still off to the same results...and through my explanation and that of a colleague did explain some differences, it bothered me that I could not put the issue clear or rather succinct enough of what were the differences that distinguished this as a field of study. Perhaps the inquiry of Male FSF writers is specific in that are there any male FSF writers who spend a good deal of an individual work showing a facet of a particular woman's issue like our own homegrown base of female FSF writers do? Jo Ann ----- Original Message ----- > I think you nailed the serpent by its tail here. There are many many books > which have strong female protagonists but don't deal with larger feminist > issues, so are not considered feminist. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:42:49 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: feminist In-Reply-To: <001001c085b0$75dc8b20$8484cbcf@vistatech.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3063127369_8373334_MIME_Part" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3063127369_8373334_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/23/01 7:50 PM, Gwen Veazey at gveazey@VISTATECH.NET wrote: Just wanted to follow-up on an earlier post of mine: The terms I was trying to remember are "equity feminists" for the conservative folk, and "gender feminists" for more traditional feminists. Don't know who originated the labels, but I read that Christina Hoff Somers and Camille Paglia (with whom I do not agree on issues) use these terms. I'm happy we're back on books now. Was the Stephen Leigh book someone was trying to remember_ Dark Water's Embrace_? I'ts next on my list to read. Yes, Gwen, that was it! A ree-e-e-lly good read. Very feminist (by that definition Phoebe and I were discussing) and well researched, in addition to being gripping and a real page turner. Yum. Btw, while doing research for my current novel I came across a couple really good, balanced essays on fundamentalism by a UU minister, and they pertain well to some of the things we've been discussing here. Anyone interested? -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! --MS_Mac_OE_3063127369_8373334_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [*FSFFU*] feminist on 1/23/01 7:50 PM, Gwen Veazey at gveazey@VISTATECH.NET wrote:

Just wanted to follow-up on an earlier post of m= ine:  The terms I was trying to remember are "equity feminists&quo= t; for the conservative folk, and "gender feminists" for more trad= itional feminists.  Don't know who originated the labels, but I read th= at Christina Hoff Somers and Camille Paglia (with whom I do not agree on iss= ues) use these terms.
I'm happy we're back on books now.  Was the Stephen Lei= gh book someone was trying to remember_ Dark Water's Embrace_?  I'ts ne= xt on my list to read.

Yes, Gwen, that was it!  A ree-e-e-lly good read.  Very feminist = (by that definition Phoebe and I were discussing) and well researched, in ad= dition to being gripping and a real page turner.  Yum.


Btw, while doing research for my current novel I came across a couple reall= y good, balanced essays on fundamentalism by a UU minister, and they pertain= well to some of the things we've been discussing here.  Anyone interes= ted?




-l.
--
Laura J. Mixon      *  ljm@digitalnoir.com &n= bsp;    *  www.digitalnoir.com
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ON THE SHELVES---          &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;            &nb= sp;        
_Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 *  www.digitalnoir.com= /prx
COMING SOON---           =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =            
"At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok    &nb= sp;*   Asimov's SF- 4/01      
_Burning the Ice_:   on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal= & intrigue
            &n= bsp;        A Tor Books hardback 200= 1 *   watch for the webpage!

--MS_Mac_OE_3063127369_8373334_MIME_Part-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:17:43 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lquilter Subject: help identifying a novel Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII seems like this was british sf; a novel, not a short story. i'm pretty sure it is NOT Frank Herbert's THE WHITE PLAGUE. but, biological warfare (something in the water?) causes almost all women to be sterile. story takes place in england. an up & coming guy comes up with a plan to solve the crisis, at least for england; round up the fertile women & put them in camps where they have babies over & over again. it turns out his wife is one of them but for the good of the country he sends her in anyway. fast forward 15 years or so. the guy has hooked up with his wife's twin sister, a sterile woman he had previously hated; the wife is miserable (or dead, maybe, i don't remember; certainly forgotten by the characters); the children of the forced-to-bear women are now of reproductive age themselves. horror of horrors, they turn out to be sterile ... it's the end and all this awful mistreatment of people is for naught. now, does this ring any bells for anyone? Laura Quilter / lquilter@feministsf.org -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 04:36:39 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Yes, I quite liked _Science of the Discworld_, from a philosophy of science kind of viewpoint. And I had forgotten about _Good Omens_ when I wrote the earlier post - a great read with some fabulous lines (Like Anathema, I know I must be anorexic because whenever I look in the mirror I see a fat person). And with 2 immediate and resounding votes for the Johnny trilogy, I'll have to go hunt them down. Maybe they'll help fill in the long months before _The Truth_comes out in paperback... Kate >From: Christine Ethier >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Male-authored feminist SF >Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:09:17 EST > >In a message dated 1/23/2001 6:02:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, >kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > ><< I'm not > hugely fond of the early Discworld novels either, though - he doesn't >really > get into stride until _Wyrd Sisters_, IMO. After that, of course, I'm > completely addicted. > >> >I would agree with that assesment. Of his non discworld novels I would >have >to say The Johnny Maxwell triology is excellent. Have you seen a copy of >The >Science of Discworld? I picked up a copy in Holland over the summer. What >Prachett and his co-writers do is use a discworld story to explain >scienitfic >concepts. > >Chris > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:51:29 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sure, great pulp stuff! Do you mean "Northwest Smith", though? Another >great pulp character. Neil Rest Yes, so he was. The anthology was called Northwest of Earth. It was one my father had that I read when I first got into the genre, but it must be about 40 years ago. Northwest seemed to be perpetually wrecking solipsistic world constructs, and I don't remember what Jirel did in particular, but I noticed her as an actual female protagonist, unusual at the time. Oh the wonder of those early days! Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:56:53 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >before _The Truth_comes out in paperback... Kate The public library might have it: the New York and Queens systems are good about buying Pratchett, but that may be a local idiosyncrasy. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:37:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow! More fascinating stuff. All I know is my ancestors were shtetl Jews who emigrated from Poland in the last century and all records in the area were destroyed by the Nazis so I'll never know details about my 'roots'. Amy > Genealogy is fascinating--I started on it when "Roots" was on TV. George reminds me of my brother Michael, who throws himself 1000% into anything he believes in, and damn the consequences. > I also found out that one of my ancestors founded Sudbury, and his son was killed & scalped on the Worcester Turnpike (Route 20) during King Philip's War. Wish I'd known that when I lived there. > Take care, > Marsha > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:09:27 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am also a Pratchett fan. I had intended to suggest 'Wyrd Sisters' for this round of the BDG. Since we've just done 'Wicked' I thought it might be fun to compare and contrast Granny Weatherwax and Elphaba. However when I checked on amazon I saw that 'Wyrd Sisters' is out of print in the US. It's due to be reissued in February, but if the date slips a bit it would have left most of the group with nothing to discuss. I would not, however, classify Pratchett as feminist writer. He is a humanist. He likes human beings in general, and is happy to include women in this group. Jane P.S.Granny Weatherwax is my personal favourite. I'm also very fond of Death. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:19:11 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Male-authored feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jane Fletcher wrote: >I would not, however, classify Pratchett as feminist writer. He is a >humanist. He likes human beings in general, and is happy to include women in >this group. Good point -- and now: can a humanist *not* be a feminist? (Too early in the day to think analytically.) >P.S.Granny Weatherwax is my personal favourite. I'm also very fond of Death. And the Librarian is perhaps my favorite male Discworld character. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:09:20 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: heather whipple Subject: Re: title help & general request In-Reply-To: <3A6D0263.89DEE779@mystgalaxy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >What was the book released a few years ago about the underground >midwives, where the protagonist went to prison for her "crimes?" > >Need more caffeine... > >Maryelizabeth Is this _The Misconceiver_ by Lucy Ferriss? I haven't read it, just have it in my Big Bookcase of FSF to Read. Can folks PLEASE try to change the subject heading as a thread evolves? I eventually deleted all posts with "Ashcroft" anywhere in the subject, but I know some of those were on other topics (I just didn't want to go through them all to find them). Heather * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple kebbo@teleport.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:31:40 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: MISCONCEIVER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, thanks, that was the book I was trying to recall. For some reason, the review I did disappeared off the MG web site, and I couldn't bring it to mind. Thanks! Pax, Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:48:02 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: Long way to go in the real life dept.; a sliver of FSFmentioned MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jo Ann: Did you hear if she survived the beating? Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:06:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tracy A Mitchell Subject: Re: Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm a little late on commenting on this post but I just can't hold back. In reference to: >>Marsha Valance >> Regional Librarian >>Neither my >>great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or >>fought for >>slavery. They fought for their country! >> . I have had family members who fought for the US during the >>revolution, >>WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. >>I also >>have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and >>Joseph >>and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and >>coworkers. >From these comments I assume you are justifying the Rebel Flag's historical importance and defining it as being patriotic. You say your ancestors "didn't fight for slavery but for their country." I must insist: you can't separate the two. I'd like to point out that enslaved African-Americans who were murdered and raped before, during and after the Civil War were also part of the same heritage and history as your ancestors. The ancestors of enslaved African-Americans, of which I am, aren't doing any Civil War re-enactments by hanging themselves. That would we as absurd as honoring those who fought as members of the Nazi Army because "they fought for their country." You can't ignore Jewish genocide during the Holocaust in the name of patriotism . You can't ignore American genocide (=enslavement of African Americans) before, during and after the Civil War in the name of patriotism either. But I guess you can try. Good Luck. Tracy A. Mitchell Amy Harlib @LISTSERV.UIC.EDU> on 01/22/2001 06:16:37 AM Please respond to "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sent by: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) I think this personal information is FASCINATNG! Amy > OK, I'm afraid I have to weigh in here. My great-great-grandfather was a Yale undergraduate, born in Connecticut, when the Civil War broke out in 1861. His maternal grandfather and great-grandfather both signed the New Hampshire Declaration of Independence in 1775--a full year before the U.S. DofI was written in Philadelphia, and fought throughout the War of Independence. George was an idealist who believed in state's rights. Born in Litchfield, CT, I'm not sure he'd ever seen a slave. But he took ship for New Orleans in April 1861, and joined the Louisiana artillery, to fight for state's rights. He fought throughout the war, and settled in SW Louisiana afterward. His granddaughter, my grandmother, married the son of an Irish immigrant grocer, Joseph, who enlisted in the Confeederate forces to fight for his new home, and survived at the Vicksburg siege. Neither my great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or fought for slavery. They fought for their country! > . I have had family members who fought for the US during the revolution, WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. I also have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and Joseph and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and coworkers. > > > Marsha Valance > Regional Librarian > Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped > 813 West Wells St. > Milwaukee, WI 53233 > > > >>> ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM 01/21/01 06:18PM >>> > on 1/21/01 1:49 PM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > > > Cindy, the confederate flag stands for a bunch of seditionists that > > tried to overthrow the US it insults afican americans and if right > > wingers are so enamored of a defeated flag that represents traitors to > > our union, then wear it on your license plate put it in a museum or in > > your back yard , but don,t force it on us african americans by flying it > > over public buildings. What would people say if Germany insisted on > > flying the swastika over their public buildings? John > > > > > John's tone has been very sharp during this debate, and I've winced a couple > of times over some of his remarks (as I have over some defensive and angry > remarks made on the other side of the debate). I hesitate to characterize > anyone's views with as much certainty as John and Cindy have done. There's > too much none of us know about each other and why we feel and think the way > we do, for me to be willing to take such strong positions based on a few > phosphors on a screen written in haste and the heat of the moment. > > However, I agree wholeheartedly with John on this one. Flying the > Confederate flag over public buildings is at best incredibly insensitive to > African Americans, whose forebears were murdered, tortured, treated as > property, and denied their basic humanity for generations, under that flag. > Slavery only stopped when the Confederate flag came down. However much the > current conservatives want to separate the Civil War from slavery, for the > blacks whose ancestors were only freed when that war was won by the North, > that connection cannot ever be severed. > > Pride in one's state and town of birth are natural. (I lived in east Texas > for years, and loved the people and the culture, even while I had grave > problems with the political and religious views that many people held. It's > a state full of friendly and generous individuals.) But can you not see, > Cindy, how making such a gesture of (white) Southern pride as flying the > Confederate flag over public buildings, while knowing full well the feelings > of humiliation and horror that evokes in the many African American citizens > of those states, might be called racist? Insisting on flying the > Confederate flag under such circumstances disowns the depth of evil that > enslaving another human entails. > > A tangential but relevant question: who here has seen "Finding Forrester?" > It's a moving and powerful movie about a young black man with a hidden gift. > Among other things, the movie beautifully demonstrates just how modern-day > prejudice (and other societal forces) work to keep African Americans (and > other minorities) from realizing their true potential in our culture. > > > > > > -l. > -- > Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ON THE SHELVES--- > _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx > COMING SOON--- > "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 > _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue > A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:21:55 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Margaret Poore Subject: Re: Long way to go in the real life dept.; a sliver of FSFmentioned MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Did you hear if she survived the beating?" in yesterday's paper it said she was in pain, but no major damage........ whatever that means. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:37:43 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: the battle flag Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther King in the 1960s--did you? I was speaking to the mindset of those members of my family who fought for the Confederacy--both on a matter of principle, and whom I honor. I could, but did not chose to, cite another great-great-grandfather who settled in northern Kentucky and was active in the Underground Railroad, but since he was a pacifist and didn't fight under the flag in question, he wasn't relevant. >>> tracyam@US.IBM.COM 01/24/01 01:06PM >>> I'm a little late on commenting on this post but I just can't hold back. In reference to: >>Marsha Valance >> Regional Librarian >>Neither my >>great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or >>fought for >>slavery. They fought for their country! >> . I have had family members who fought for the US during the >>revolution, >>WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. >>I also >>have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and >>Joseph >>and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and >>coworkers. >From these comments I assume you are justifying the Rebel Flag's historical importance and defining it as being patriotic. You say your ancestors "didn't fight for slavery but for their country." I must insist: you can't separate the two. I'd like to point out that enslaved African-Americans who were murdered and raped before, during and after the Civil War were also part of the same heritage and history as your ancestors. The ancestors of enslaved African-Americans, of which I am, aren't doing any Civil War re-enactments by hanging themselves. That would we as absurd as honoring those who fought as members of the Nazi Army because "they fought for their country." You can't ignore Jewish genocide during the Holocaust in the name of patriotism . You can't ignore American genocide (=enslavement of African Americans) before, during and after the Civil War in the name of patriotism either. But I guess you can try. Good Luck. Tracy A. Mitchell Amy Harlib @LISTSERV.UIC.EDU> on 01/22/2001 06:16:37 AM Please respond to "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sent by: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) I think this personal information is FASCINATNG! Amy > OK, I'm afraid I have to weigh in here. My great-great-grandfather was a Yale undergraduate, born in Connecticut, when the Civil War broke out in 1861. His maternal grandfather and great-grandfather both signed the New Hampshire Declaration of Independence in 1775--a full year before the U.S. DofI was written in Philadelphia, and fought throughout the War of Independence. George was an idealist who believed in state's rights. Born in Litchfield, CT, I'm not sure he'd ever seen a slave. But he took ship for New Orleans in April 1861, and joined the Louisiana artillery, to fight for state's rights. He fought throughout the war, and settled in SW Louisiana afterward. His granddaughter, my grandmother, married the son of an Irish immigrant grocer, Joseph, who enlisted in the Confeederate forces to fight for his new home, and survived at the Vicksburg siege. Neither my great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or fought for slavery. They fought for their country! > . I have had family members who fought for the US during the revolution, WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. I also have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and Joseph and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and coworkers. > > > Marsha Valance > Regional Librarian > Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped > 813 West Wells St. > Milwaukee, WI 53233 > > > >>> ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM 01/21/01 06:18PM >>> > on 1/21/01 1:49 PM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > > > Cindy, the confederate flag stands for a bunch of seditionists that > > tried to overthrow the US it insults afican americans and if right > > wingers are so enamored of a defeated flag that represents traitors to > > our union, then wear it on your license plate put it in a museum or in > > your back yard , but don,t force it on us african americans by flying it > > over public buildings. What would people say if Germany insisted on > > flying the swastika over their public buildings? John > > > > > John's tone has been very sharp during this debate, and I've winced a couple > of times over some of his remarks (as I have over some defensive and angry > remarks made on the other side of the debate). I hesitate to characterize > anyone's views with as much certainty as John and Cindy have done. There's > too much none of us know about each other and why we feel and think the way > we do, for me to be willing to take such strong positions based on a few > phosphors on a screen written in haste and the heat of the moment. > > However, I agree wholeheartedly with John on this one. Flying the > Confederate flag over public buildings is at best incredibly insensitive to > African Americans, whose forebears were murdered, tortured, treated as > property, and denied their basic humanity for generations, under that flag. > Slavery only stopped when the Confederate flag came down. However much the > current conservatives want to separate the Civil War from slavery, for the > blacks whose ancestors were only freed when that war was won by the North, > that connection cannot ever be severed. > > Pride in one's state and town of birth are natural. (I lived in east Texas > for years, and loved the people and the culture, even while I had grave > problems with the political and religious views that many people held. It's > a state full of friendly and generous individuals.) But can you not see, > Cindy, how making such a gesture of (white) Southern pride as flying the > Confederate flag over public buildings, while knowing full well the feelings > of humiliation and horror that evokes in the many African American citizens > of those states, might be called racist? Insisting on flying the > Confederate flag under such circumstances disowns the depth of evil that > enslaving another human entails. > > A tangential but relevant question: who here has seen "Finding Forrester?" > It's a moving and powerful movie about a young black man with a hidden gift. > Among other things, the movie beautifully demonstrates just how modern-day > prejudice (and other societal forces) work to keep African Americans (and > other minorities) from realizing their true potential in our culture. > > > > > > -l. > -- > Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ON THE SHELVES--- > _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx > COMING SOON--- > "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 > _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue > A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:46:55 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Long way to go in the real life dept.; a sliver of FSFmentioned MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/24/01 1:47:19 PM, publicity@MYSTGALAXY.COM writes: << Did you hear if she survived the beating? >> Account in the Boston Globe said she walked back to her house. phoebew -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:21:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tracy A Mitchell Subject: Re: the battle flag MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I don't want to turn this into a personal attack. All of our various personal stories can illuminate issue concerning race, hertiage, ect. I'm speaking to these issues and both of our personal stories in relation to these issues: When you say: >> >>I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther >>King in the 1960s--did you? I was speaking to the mindset of those >>members of my family who fought for the Confederacy--both on a matter >>of principle, and whom I honor. >> >> I'm not sure what you mean about "as a matter of principle..." but on honoring our ancestors I would say by all means claim you past (in reference to your ancestors). Know it, know it's truth. But honoring a past history of enslavement of another people no matter the mind set of the ancestor, no matter the color of the enslaver (because africans enslaved other africans in the 1800's -reference available upon request) is a point many who have southern ancestory fail to see. I may have african ancestors who enslaved other africans. If I knew them I might like them as people, but I would not honor and praise them for taking part in a war to keep states rights if those states rights included enslaving others no matter their mind set at the time. There is nothing honorable in that. (What was the mind set of enslaved African-Americans at that time?) >>I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther >>King in the 1960s--did you? >> I was born in 1966, so no, I didn't march. I will say again that this is not a personal attack, but an opportunity to explore issues we are all affected by. The issue is not whether anyone marched with King or how many African Americans someone knows or has had inside their home or even if soemone is a racist. Racism is very complicated and pervasive and none of these activities absolves any of us from the responsibility to confront these matters. The crux of the issue is that it is problematic, to put it mildly, to celebrate, honor, and glorify those who fought to defend a system predicated upon white supremacy and the ownership of other human beings. Period. Yes, there were many causes that led to the Civil War, but the institution of slavery, which was the base of the southern economic system, and the inability of the North and South to reconcile differing opinions on this issue was the issue that laid under those other reasons. This truth is inescapable. This issue is larger than oversimplified notions of honoring "our forefathers." These people are more than our "great-great-great-grandfather who owned one slave that he treated very well" or our "great-great-grandfather who never owned slaves," etc. To African Americans and many other enlightened people belonging to a variety of ethnic backgrounds these are the people who fought to perpetuate human bondage. Flying the Confederate flag also pays homage to those supremecist ideals. Our heritage, and this includes Americans of all socially constructed races, IS one of genocide (African-Amercian, native-american,etc) whether we want to face that or not. And I would argue that not facing that heritage, owning it, and declaring it as totally dishonorable is at the root of many of the ills that face us as a country today. Perhaps folks hold on to an honorable and patriotic view of "a" south, of "a" heritage,"a" honorable rebel flag, because they don't what to face the totally unhonorable. I would argue, however, that owning our unhonorable past is the first step towards healing from it. Peace Tracy Marsha Valance @LISTSERV.UIC.EDU> on 01/24/2001 02:37:43 PM Please respond to "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sent by: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] the battle flag I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther King in the 1960s--did you? I was speaking to the mindset of those members of my family who fought for the Confederacy--both on a matter of principle, and whom I honor. I could, but did not chose to, cite another great-great-grandfather who settled in northern Kentucky and was active in the Underground Railroad, but since he was a pacifist and didn't fight under the flag in question, he wasn't relevant. >>> tracyam@US.IBM.COM 01/24/01 01:06PM >>> I'm a little late on commenting on this post but I just can't hold back. In reference to: >>Marsha Valance >> Regional Librarian >>Neither my >>great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or >>fought for >>slavery. They fought for their country! >> . I have had family members who fought for the US during the >>revolution, >>WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. >>I also >>have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and >>Joseph >>and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and >>coworkers. >From these comments I assume you are justifying the Rebel Flag's historical importance and defining it as being patriotic. You say your ancestors "didn't fight for slavery but for their country." I must insist: you can't separate the two. I'd like to point out that enslaved African-Americans who were murdered and raped before, during and after the Civil War were also part of the same heritage and history as your ancestors. The ancestors of enslaved African-Americans, of which I am, aren't doing any Civil War re-enactments by hanging themselves. That would we as absurd as honoring those who fought as members of the Nazi Army because "they fought for their country." You can't ignore Jewish genocide during the Holocaust in the name of patriotism . You can't ignore American genocide (=enslavement of African Americans) before, during and after the Civil War in the name of patriotism either. But I guess you can try. Good Luck. Tracy A. Mitchell Amy Harlib @LISTSERV.UIC.EDU> on 01/22/2001 06:16:37 AM Please respond to "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sent by: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) I think this personal information is FASCINATNG! Amy > OK, I'm afraid I have to weigh in here. My great-great-grandfather was a Yale undergraduate, born in Connecticut, when the Civil War broke out in 1861. His maternal grandfather and great-grandfather both signed the New Hampshire Declaration of Independence in 1775--a full year before the U.S. DofI was written in Philadelphia, and fought throughout the War of Independence. George was an idealist who believed in state's rights. Born in Litchfield, CT, I'm not sure he'd ever seen a slave. But he took ship for New Orleans in April 1861, and joined the Louisiana artillery, to fight for state's rights. He fought throughout the war, and settled in SW Louisiana afterward. His granddaughter, my grandmother, married the son of an Irish immigrant grocer, Joseph, who enlisted in the Confeederate forces to fight for his new home, and survived at the Vicksburg siege. Neither my great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or fought for slavery. They fought for their country! > . I have had family members who fought for the US during the revolution, WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. I also have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and Joseph and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and coworkers. > > > Marsha Valance > Regional Librarian > Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped > 813 West Wells St. > Milwaukee, WI 53233 > > > >>> ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM 01/21/01 06:18PM >>> > on 1/21/01 1:49 PM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > > > Cindy, the confederate flag stands for a bunch of seditionists that > > tried to overthrow the US it insults afican americans and if right > > wingers are so enamored of a defeated flag that represents traitors to > > our union, then wear it on your license plate put it in a museum or in > > your back yard , but don,t force it on us african americans by flying it > > over public buildings. What would people say if Germany insisted on > > flying the swastika over their public buildings? John > > > > > John's tone has been very sharp during this debate, and I've winced a couple > of times over some of his remarks (as I have over some defensive and angry > remarks made on the other side of the debate). I hesitate to characterize > anyone's views with as much certainty as John and Cindy have done. There's > too much none of us know about each other and why we feel and think the way > we do, for me to be willing to take such strong positions based on a few > phosphors on a screen written in haste and the heat of the moment. > > However, I agree wholeheartedly with John on this one. Flying the > Confederate flag over public buildings is at best incredibly insensitive to > African Americans, whose forebears were murdered, tortured, treated as > property, and denied their basic humanity for generations, under that flag. > Slavery only stopped when the Confederate flag came down. However much the > current conservatives want to separate the Civil War from slavery, for the > blacks whose ancestors were only freed when that war was won by the North, > that connection cannot ever be severed. > > Pride in one's state and town of birth are natural. (I lived in east Texas > for years, and loved the people and the culture, even while I had grave > problems with the political and religious views that many people held. It's > a state full of friendly and generous individuals.) But can you not see, > Cindy, how making such a gesture of (white) Southern pride as flying the > Confederate flag over public buildings, while knowing full well the feelings > of humiliation and horror that evokes in the many African American citizens > of those states, might be called racist? Insisting on flying the > Confederate flag under such circumstances disowns the depth of evil that > enslaving another human entails. > > A tangential but relevant question: who here has seen "Finding Forrester?" > It's a moving and powerful movie about a young black man with a hidden gift. > Among other things, the movie beautifully demonstrates just how modern-day > prejudice (and other societal forces) work to keep African Americans (and > other minorities) from realizing their true potential in our culture. > > > > > > -l. > -- > Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ON THE SHELVES--- > _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx > COMING SOON--- > "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 > _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue > A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:41:51 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Gate To Women's Country MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was having a hard time getting to sleep late last night so I started reading Tepper's _Gate To Women's Country_, swept through to chapter 9 in one sitting and am like WOW this is really really good stuff. The storytelling is wonderful. Must have been when I was burning my candle at both ends and burning out mentally that I could not enjoy this work the first time I picked it up. That is a subject I have thought of writing about, how we push our minds to the very brink of combustion that we strain so much to get things done on a daily basis that we do not take the rest to have quiet and rest the mind and take the time to do nothing to refill the perverbial mental well so to speak. When my 79 year old father became very ill a year ago last november, I was mentally exhausted, and after the crisis of his illness had passed I did something I never thought I would be able to do because I never felt the need to do it before, that being to take a few months off and do absolutely nothing. This went on for five months, and you know what, its working. Now instead of picking up a magazine or a newspaper article and immediately having a headache, the information is taken in like a sponge once more, and the information gets processed and sometimes I have an 'aha' moment instead of a 'damn my head hurts again' moment. Rest is important. Lesson learned. Will be incorporating it in my daily life more as I get back into the perverbical 'rat race', grin. Jo Ann -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:58:02 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Links for helping women as mentioned in previous post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As mentioned in a previous post, there was a recent episode of Oprah that included links to organizations who are trying to help women in crisis in third world countries, here are the links from that show: January 18, 2001 Madeleine Albright Take Action! Sexual trafficking affects millions of women worldwide - but you can do something to help give these women a better life. Here are some specific ways to take action: International Justice Mission The International Justice Mission works to rescue girls from forced prostitution--working with indigenous government officials and even raiding brothels. www.ijm.org (888) 456-4499 The Heifer Project Buy a farm animal for a needy woman, and you'll be giving her the resources to support herself. www.heifer.org (800) 489-5575 Maiti Nepal This Nepali organization crusades to help victims of sexual trafficking. Sponsor a victim, make a donation, or just find out more information. www.maitinepal.org National Worker Exploitation Task Force If you suspect anyone of human trafficking, contact this U.S. government task force. http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/crim/wetf.htm (888) 428-7581 International Organization for Migration For more information on trafficking or what you can do: call 1-202-862-1826, ext. 228 log on to www.iom.int -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:51:28 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: the battle flag, & back to Ashcroft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tracy, we must agree to disagree. You seemingly cannot accept that I can both abhor slavery and honor my ancestors who fought for the South for other reasons. It is unfortunate the battle flag has been co-opted as a symbol by people who pervert its original purpose, but I will be driven away from it, no more than I will stop reading Kipling because his uniform edition, published in the 1920s, bears a swastika on the spine of each volume. I believe we are like in our concerns & causes, disagreeing only in our associations with certain symbols. Peace also to you. MJV PS: I hope, in the heat of our discussion, you have not neglected to notify your senators of your opposition to Ashcroft. >>> tracyam@US.IBM.COM 01/24/01 03:21PM >>> I don't want to turn this into a personal attack. All of our various personal stories can illuminate issue concerning race, hertiage, ect. I'm speaking to these issues and both of our personal stories in relation to these issues: When you say: >> >>I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther >>King in the 1960s--did you? I was speaking to the mindset of those >>members of my family who fought for the Confederacy--both on a matter >>of principle, and whom I honor. >> >> I'm not sure what you mean about "as a matter of principle..." but on honoring our ancestors I would say by all means claim you past (in reference to your ancestors). Know it, know it's truth. But honoring a past history of enslavement of another people no matter the mind set of the ancestor, no matter the color of the enslaver (because africans enslaved other africans in the 1800's -reference available upon request) is a point many who have southern ancestory fail to see. I may have african ancestors who enslaved other africans. If I knew them I might like them as people, but I would not honor and praise them for taking part in a war to keep states rights if those states rights included enslaving others no matter their mind set at the time. There is nothing honorable in that. (What was the mind set of enslaved African-Americans at that time?) >>I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther >>King in the 1960s--did you? >> I was born in 1966, so no, I didn't march. I will say again that this is not a personal attack, but an opportunity to explore issues we are all affected by. The issue is not whether anyone marched with King or how many African Americans someone knows or has had inside their home or even if soemone is a racist. Racism is very complicated and pervasive and none of these activities absolves any of us from the responsibility to confront these matters. The crux of the issue is that it is problematic, to put it mildly, to celebrate, honor, and glorify those who fought to defend a system predicated upon white supremacy and the ownership of other human beings. Period. Yes, there were many causes that led to the Civil War, but the institution of slavery, which was the base of the southern economic system, and the inability of the North and South to reconcile differing opinions on this issue was the issue that laid under those other reasons. This truth is inescapable. This issue is larger than oversimplified notions of honoring "our forefathers." These people are more than our "great-great-great-grandfather who owned one slave that he treated very well" or our "great-great-grandfather who never owned slaves," etc. To African Americans and many other enlightened people belonging to a variety of ethnic backgrounds these are the people who fought to perpetuate human bondage. Flying the Confederate flag also pays homage to those supremecist ideals. Our heritage, and this includes Americans of all socially constructed races, IS one of genocide (African-Amercian, native-american,etc) whether we want to face that or not. And I would argue that not facing that heritage, owning it, and declaring it as totally dishonorable is at the root of many of the ills that face us as a country today. Perhaps folks hold on to an honorable and patriotic view of "a" south, of "a" heritage,"a" honorable rebel flag, because they don't what to face the totally unhonorable. I would argue, however, that owning our unhonorable past is the first step towards healing from it. Peace Tracy Marsha Valance @LISTSERV.UIC.EDU> on 01/24/2001 02:37:43 PM Please respond to "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sent by: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] the battle flag I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther King in the 1960s--did you? I was speaking to the mindset of those members of my family who fought for the Confederacy--both on a matter of principle, and whom I honor. I could, but did not chose to, cite another great-great-grandfather who settled in northern Kentucky and was active in the Underground Railroad, but since he was a pacifist and didn't fight under the flag in question, he wasn't relevant. >>> tracyam@US.IBM.COM 01/24/01 01:06PM >>> I'm a little late on commenting on this post but I just can't hold back. In reference to: >>Marsha Valance >> Regional Librarian >>Neither my >>great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or >>fought for >>slavery. They fought for their country! >> . I have had family members who fought for the US during the >>revolution, >>WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. >>I also >>have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and >>Joseph >>and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and >>coworkers. >From these comments I assume you are justifying the Rebel Flag's historical importance and defining it as being patriotic. You say your ancestors "didn't fight for slavery but for their country." I must insist: you can't separate the two. I'd like to point out that enslaved African-Americans who were murdered and raped before, during and after the Civil War were also part of the same heritage and history as your ancestors. The ancestors of enslaved African-Americans, of which I am, aren't doing any Civil War re-enactments by hanging themselves. That would we as absurd as honoring those who fought as members of the Nazi Army because "they fought for their country." You can't ignore Jewish genocide during the Holocaust in the name of patriotism . You can't ignore American genocide (=enslavement of African Americans) before, during and after the Civil War in the name of patriotism either. But I guess you can try. Good Luck. Tracy A. Mitchell Amy Harlib @LISTSERV.UIC.EDU> on 01/22/2001 06:16:37 AM Please respond to "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sent by: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) I think this personal information is FASCINATNG! Amy > OK, I'm afraid I have to weigh in here. My great-great-grandfather was a Yale undergraduate, born in Connecticut, when the Civil War broke out in 1861. His maternal grandfather and great-grandfather both signed the New Hampshire Declaration of Independence in 1775--a full year before the U.S. DofI was written in Philadelphia, and fought throughout the War of Independence. George was an idealist who believed in state's rights. Born in Litchfield, CT, I'm not sure he'd ever seen a slave. But he took ship for New Orleans in April 1861, and joined the Louisiana artillery, to fight for state's rights. He fought throughout the war, and settled in SW Louisiana afterward. His granddaughter, my grandmother, married the son of an Irish immigrant grocer, Joseph, who enlisted in the Confeederate forces to fight for his new home, and survived at the Vicksburg siege. Neither my great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or fought for slavery. They fought for their country! > . I have had family members who fought for the US during the revolution, WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. I also have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and Joseph and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and coworkers. > > > Marsha Valance > Regional Librarian > Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped > 813 West Wells St. > Milwaukee, WI 53233 > > > >>> ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM 01/21/01 06:18PM >>> > on 1/21/01 1:49 PM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > > > Cindy, the confederate flag stands for a bunch of seditionists that > > tried to overthrow the US it insults afican americans and if right > > wingers are so enamored of a defeated flag that represents traitors to > > our union, then wear it on your license plate put it in a museum or in > > your back yard , but don,t force it on us african americans by flying it > > over public buildings. What would people say if Germany insisted on > > flying the swastika over their public buildings? John > > > > > John's tone has been very sharp during this debate, and I've winced a couple > of times over some of his remarks (as I have over some defensive and angry > remarks made on the other side of the debate). I hesitate to characterize > anyone's views with as much certainty as John and Cindy have done. There's > too much none of us know about each other and why we feel and think the way > we do, for me to be willing to take such strong positions based on a few > phosphors on a screen written in haste and the heat of the moment. > > However, I agree wholeheartedly with John on this one. Flying the > Confederate flag over public buildings is at best incredibly insensitive to > African Americans, whose forebears were murdered, tortured, treated as > property, and denied their basic humanity for generations, under that flag. > Slavery only stopped when the Confederate flag came down. However much the > current conservatives want to separate the Civil War from slavery, for the > blacks whose ancestors were only freed when that war was won by the North, > that connection cannot ever be severed. > > Pride in one's state and town of birth are natural. (I lived in east Texas > for years, and loved the people and the culture, even while I had grave > problems with the political and religious views that many people held. It's > a state full of friendly and generous individuals.) But can you not see, > Cindy, how making such a gesture of (white) Southern pride as flying the > Confederate flag over public buildings, while knowing full well the feelings > of humiliation and horror that evokes in the many African American citizens > of those states, might be called racist? Insisting on flying the > Confederate flag under such circumstances disowns the depth of evil that > enslaving another human entails. > > A tangential but relevant question: who here has seen "Finding Forrester?" > It's a moving and powerful movie about a young black man with a hidden gift. > Among other things, the movie beautifully demonstrates just how modern-day > prejudice (and other societal forces) work to keep African Americans (and > other minorities) from realizing their true potential in our culture. > > > > > > -l. > -- > Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ON THE SHELVES--- > _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx > COMING SOON--- > "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 > _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue > A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:12:12 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: the battle flag In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Wow, Tracy, what a graceful, well-presented post. I think you really nailed it. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:18:21 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Secesh: after Valance et alles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" If the war had been fought about slavery rather than secession, righteousness might have a greater role to play in this argument. -----Original Message----- From: Marsha Valance [mailto:Mvalan@MPL.ORG] Tracy, we must agree to disagree. You seemingly cannot accept that I can both abhor slavery and honor my ancestors who fought for the South for other reasons. totally unhonorable. I would argue, however, that owning our unhonorable past is the first step towards healing from it. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:01:46 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Secesh: after Valance et alles In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/24/01 3:18 PM, Todd Mason at Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM wrote: > If the war had been fought about slavery rather than secession, > righteousness might have a greater role to play in this argument. Todd, according to every primary source I've read, the South seceded to preserve slavery. The two were inseparable. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:31:03 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Secesh: after Mixon-Gould MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" But slavery was not the reason the war was fought. The Confederate-state power-heirarchies wanted to maintain a strong voice for a partially slave-holding economy in the federal government; the non-Secesh states mostly didn't want the slavery states to have so much a say, and the Lincoln Administration made it clear that they would allow no secession. But you'll notice that slavery wasn't absent from the north, nor did the Emancipation Proclamation come at the beginning of the war, nor did the EP free slaves in non-Confederated states(!), nor did Lincoln et alles speak much in the early YEARS of the war about the pernicious institution...despite the antislavery origins of the Republican party, and the damage done to both the Whigs and the Democrats in electoral terms by the subject. I don't think the Stars and Bars can meaningfully be separated from the attempt to preserve institutionalized slavery, but the Stars and Stripes can't be separated from the history of slavery in this country as as well, and not a little more we can choose to be collectively ashamed of. Bravery and protection of one's homeland only take one so far. But that goes for both sides in that particular conflict. Which is not to begin to chastise the Abolitionists who actually did work for the end of that insanity...but when we are encouraged to think of Abraham Lincoln as an unalloyed saint, and the northern cause as just repugnance at slavery, we are being lied to. For what that's worth. TM -----Original Message----- From: Laura J. Mixon-Gould [mailto:ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM] Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 6:02 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Secesh: after Valance et alles on 1/24/01 3:18 PM, Todd Mason at Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM wrote: > If the war had been fought about slavery rather than secession, > righteousness might have a greater role to play in this argument. Todd, according to every primary source I've read, the South seceded to preserve slavery. The two were inseparable. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:52:03 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: the battle flag, & back to Ashcroft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I've been staying out of this entire discussion because, not being an American and therefore knowing very little about the Civil War and its aftereffects, I haven't felt I've had anything to contribute. However, without getting into the content of this argument at all, I'd like to make a point about its structure, as it appears from the outside. To me, the discussion sounds to me very like arguments I have had with very well meaning men, whom I respect deeply, about the use of the word "man" to mean all human beings. I agree that historically, many people using the term really did mean "the human race". I accept that authors writing in previous eras weren't being deliberately sexist. I won't stop reading Kipling because of that either. However, I must point out that the word NOW means something different than it did then. Anyone who RIGHT NOW uses the word "man" to mean people IS being sexist, even if they really believe they are just being historically accurate. Marsha, I don't mean to claim that you ARE being racist for flying the Confederate Flag even if you are doing it for historical reasons that have nothing to do with slavery. I do think, however, that you are being remarkably insensitive to the meanings evoked by the flag AT THIS POINT IN TIME. I have no idea whether or not the Confederate flag could be feasibly separated from connotations of slavery at the time your ancestors were flying it. I do believe that it can't be feasibly separated from these connotations now. I agree totally with Tracy's elegant explication of this point. Kate. >From: Marsha Valance >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] the battle flag, & back to Ashcroft >Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:51:28 -0600 > >Tracy, >we must agree to disagree. You seemingly cannot accept that I can both >abhor slavery and honor my ancestors who fought for the South for other >reasons. It is unfortunate the battle flag has been co-opted as a symbol by >people who pervert its original purpose, but I will be driven away from it, >no more than I will stop reading Kipling because his uniform edition, >published in the 1920s, bears a swastika on the spine of each volume. >I believe we are like in our concerns & causes, disagreeing only in our >associations with certain symbols. >Peace also to you. >MJV >PS: I hope, in the heat of our discussion, you have not neglected to notify >your senators of your opposition to Ashcroft. > > >>> tracyam@US.IBM.COM 01/24/01 03:21PM >>> >I don't want to turn this into a personal attack. All of our various >personal stories can illuminate issue concerning race, hertiage, ect. I'm >speaking to these issues and both of our personal stories in relation to >these issues: > >When you say: > >> > >>I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther > >>King in the 1960s--did you? I was speaking to the mindset of those > >>members of my family who fought for the Confederacy--both on a matter > >>of principle, and whom I honor. > >> > >> > >I'm not sure what you mean about "as a matter of principle..." but on >honoring our ancestors I would say by all means claim you past (in >reference to your ancestors). Know it, know it's truth. But honoring a >past history of enslavement of another people no matter the mind set of the >ancestor, no matter the color of the enslaver (because africans enslaved >other africans in the 1800's -reference available upon request) is a point >many who have southern ancestory fail to see. > >I may have african ancestors who enslaved other africans. If I knew them I >might like them as people, but I would not honor and praise them for taking >part in a war to keep states rights if those states rights included >enslaving others no matter their mind set at the time. There is nothing >honorable in that. (What was the mind set of enslaved African-Americans at >that time?) > > >>I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther > >>King in the 1960s--did you? > >> > >I was born in 1966, so no, I didn't march. I will say again that this is >not a personal attack, but an opportunity to explore issues we are all >affected by. > >The issue is not whether anyone marched with King or how many African >Americans someone knows or has had inside their home or even if soemone is >a >racist. Racism is very complicated and pervasive and none of these >activities absolves any of us from the responsibility to confront these >matters. The crux of the issue is that it is problematic, to put it >mildly, to celebrate, honor, and glorify those who fought to defend a >system predicated upon white supremacy and the ownership of other human >beings. Period. Yes, there were many causes that led to the Civil War, but >the institution of slavery, which was the base of the southern economic >system, and the inability of the North and South to reconcile differing >opinions on this issue was the issue that laid under those other reasons. >This truth is inescapable. This issue is larger than oversimplified >notions of honoring "our forefathers." These people are more than our >"great-great-great-grandfather who owned one slave that he treated very >well" or our "great-great-grandfather who never owned slaves," etc. To >African Americans and many other enlightened people belonging to a variety >of ethnic backgrounds these are the people who fought to perpetuate human >bondage. Flying the Confederate flag also pays homage to those supremecist >ideals. > >Our heritage, and this includes Americans of all socially constructed >races, IS one of genocide (African-Amercian, native-american,etc) whether >we want to face that or not. And I would argue that not facing that >heritage, owning it, and declaring it as totally dishonorable is at the >root of many of the ills that face us as a country today. Perhaps folks >hold on to an honorable and patriotic view of "a" south, of "a" >heritage,"a" honorable rebel flag, because they don't what to face the >totally unhonorable. I would argue, however, that owning our unhonorable >past is the first step towards healing from it. > >Peace > >Tracy > > >Marsha Valance @LISTSERV.UIC.EDU> on 01/24/2001 02:37:43 PM > >Please respond to "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian > literature" > >Sent by: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > > > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >cc: >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] the battle flag > > > >I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther King >in the 1960s--did you? I was speaking to the mindset of those members of my >family who fought for the Confederacy--both on a matter of principle, and >whom I honor. I could, but did not chose to, cite another >great-great-grandfather who settled in northern Kentucky and was active in >the Underground Railroad, but since he was a pacifist and didn't fight >under the flag in question, he wasn't relevant. > > > >>> tracyam@US.IBM.COM 01/24/01 01:06PM >>> >I'm a little late on commenting on this post but I just can't hold back. >In reference to: > > >>Marsha Valance > >> Regional Librarian > > >>Neither my > >>great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or > >>fought >for > >>slavery. They fought for their country! > >> . I have had family members who fought for the US during the > >>revolution, > >>WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. > >>I >also > >>have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and > >>Joseph > >>and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and > >>coworkers. > >From these comments I assume you are justifying the Rebel Flag's historical >importance and defining it as being patriotic. You say your ancestors >"didn't fight for slavery but for their country." I must insist: you can't >separate the two. > >I'd like to point out that enslaved African-Americans who were murdered and >raped before, during and after the Civil War were also part of the same >heritage and history as your ancestors. The ancestors of enslaved >African-Americans, of which I am, aren't doing any Civil War re-enactments >by hanging themselves. That would we as absurd as honoring those who >fought as members of the Nazi Army because "they fought for their country." >You can't ignore Jewish genocide during the Holocaust in the name of >patriotism . You can't ignore American genocide (=enslavement of African >Americans) before, during and after the Civil War in the name of patriotism >either. But I guess you can try. Good Luck. > >Tracy A. Mitchell > > > >Amy Harlib @LISTSERV.UIC.EDU> on 01/22/2001 >06:16:37 AM > >Please respond to "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian > literature" > >Sent by: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > > > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >cc: >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) > > > >I think this personal information is FASCINATNG! Amy > > > > OK, I'm afraid I have to weigh in here. My great-great-grandfather was a >Yale undergraduate, born in Connecticut, when the Civil War broke out in >1861. His maternal grandfather and great-grandfather both signed the New >Hampshire Declaration of Independence in 1775--a full year before the U.S. >DofI was written in Philadelphia, and fought throughout the War of >Independence. George was an idealist who believed in state's rights. Born >in >Litchfield, CT, I'm not sure he'd ever seen a slave. But he took ship for >New Orleans in April 1861, and joined the Louisiana artillery, to fight for >state's rights. He fought throughout the war, and settled in SW Louisiana >afterward. His granddaughter, my grandmother, married the son of an Irish >immigrant grocer, Joseph, who enlisted in the Confeederate forces to fight >for his new home, and survived at the Vicksburg siege. Neither my >great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or fought for >slavery. They fought for their country! > > . I have had family members who fought for the US during the revolution, >WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. I >also >have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and Joseph >and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and coworkers. > > > > > > Marsha Valance > > Regional Librarian > > Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped > > 813 West Wells St. > > Milwaukee, WI 53233 > > > > > > >>> ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM 01/21/01 06:18PM >>> > > on 1/21/01 1:49 PM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > > > > > Cindy, the confederate flag stands for a bunch of seditionists that > > > tried to overthrow the US it insults afican americans and if right > > > wingers are so enamored of a defeated flag that represents traitors to > > > our union, then wear it on your license plate put it in a museum or in > > > your back yard , but don,t force it on us african americans by flying >it > > > over public buildings. What would people say if Germany insisted on > > > flying the swastika over their public buildings? John > > > > > > > > > > John's tone has been very sharp during this debate, and I've winced a >couple > > of times over some of his remarks (as I have over some defensive and >angry > > remarks made on the other side of the debate). I hesitate to >characterize > > anyone's views with as much certainty as John and Cindy have done. >There's > > too much none of us know about each other and why we feel and think the >way > > we do, for me to be willing to take such strong positions based on a few > > phosphors on a screen written in haste and the heat of the moment. > > > > However, I agree wholeheartedly with John on this one. Flying the > > Confederate flag over public buildings is at best incredibly insensitive >to > > African Americans, whose forebears were murdered, tortured, treated as > > property, and denied their basic humanity for generations, under that >flag. > > Slavery only stopped when the Confederate flag came down. However much >the > > current conservatives want to separate the Civil War from slavery, for >the > > blacks whose ancestors were only freed when that war was won by the >North, > > that connection cannot ever be severed. > > > > Pride in one's state and town of birth are natural. (I lived in east >Texas > > for years, and loved the people and the culture, even while I had grave > > problems with the political and religious views that many people held. >It's > > a state full of friendly and generous individuals.) But can you not >see, > > Cindy, how making such a gesture of (white) Southern pride as flying the > > Confederate flag over public buildings, while knowing full well the >feelings > > of humiliation and horror that evokes in the many African American >citizens > > of those states, might be called racist? Insisting on flying the > > Confederate flag under such circumstances disowns the depth of evil that > > enslaving another human entails. > > > > A tangential but relevant question: who here has seen "Finding >Forrester?" > > It's a moving and powerful movie about a young black man with a hidden >gift. > > Among other things, the movie beautifully demonstrates just how >modern-day > > prejudice (and other societal forces) work to keep African Americans >(and > > other minorities) from realizing their true potential in our culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > -l. > > -- > > Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com > > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > ON THE SHELVES--- > > _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * >www.digitalnoir.com/prx > > COMING SOON--- > > "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 > > _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & >intrigue > > A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the >webpage! > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 00:19:34 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Feminists vs humanists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jane, I too an interested in your distinction of "humanist" from "feminist". I have clearly spent way too much time around cultural theory, but I was under the impression that "humanism" was a particular philosophical position, originating in the Renaissance and still forming the basis of Western culture, that placed the "human" (who somehow was always represented by an adult, white, male) at the centre of the universe, as per the Da Vinci diagram. Feminism, in this way of thinking, may or may not be humanist. If the idea is simply to challenge the problem that the "human" ideal is always represented by a man, then feminism is humanist too. On the other hand, if the feminist in question also subscribes to poststructuralism which challenges the idea that anything is at the centre of the universe, her feminism will be opposed to humanism. I consider Terry Pratchett a poststructuralist, since he clearly believes that human creations, rather than humans themselves, have the power. Poststructuralism, I would argue (but thankfully not here) necessarily includes feminism if it is to be logically consistent. (Just because an awful lot of poststructuralist writing isn't feminist doesn't change my mind on this. It simply makes Pratchett, as a feminist, one of the more intelligent poststructuralists out there). Kate. >From: Frances >Reply-To: Frances >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Male-authored feminist SF >Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:19:11 -0500 > >Jane Fletcher wrote: > > >I would not, however, classify Pratchett as feminist writer. He is a > >humanist. He likes human beings in general, and is happy to include women >in > >this group. > >Good point -- and now: can a humanist *not* be a feminist? (Too early in >the day >to think analytically.) > > >P.S.Granny Weatherwax is my personal favourite. I'm also very fond of >Death. > >And the Librarian is perhaps my favorite male Discworld character. > >Frances > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:49:39 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: book discussion suggestions: Hart (round 2) first contacts Comments: To: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, M'e: For horror, if you were burned by Kim Newman's THE BLOODY RED BARON (it did get put down rather easily by me, a great disappointment after ANNO DRACULA), the short fiction such as "Andy Warhol's DRACULA" (still accessible as of this writing at http://www.eventhorizon.com/sfzine/fiction/warhols_dracula/index.html and worth the look) and "Castle in the Desert: Anno Dracula 1977," likewise readable at http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/originals/originals_archive/newman/ (also very much worth any effort you take), are quite good, worthy sequels. But may not qualify as "first contact." Haven't given THE JUDGEMENT OF TEARS a go yet. Are Elizabeth Hand's novels useful in this wise? And if short fiction is an option, few better examples exist than Theodore Sturgeon's "It." For borderline horror-sf: Frank Robinson's WAITING... For borderline sf-fantasy (more Swiftian than otherwise): R. A. Lafferty's "Cameroi" stories, and the likes of "Nine Hundred Grandmothers" (is NESFA about to do a Lafferty omnibus?) For humorous horror (and psychic investigation): GHOST BREAKER or any other assembly or individual texts of the Max Kearney stories by Ron Goulart. A difficult find, perhaps. TM -----Original Message----- From: Maryelizabeth Hart [mailto:publicity@MYSTGALAXY.COM] My store book group is interested in doing some discussions of first contact type novels, and after 8 years I am having a hard time coming up with anything which is worthwhile, and we haven't already read. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:00:54 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: the battle flag, & back to Ashcroft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I can both abhor slavery and honor my ancestors who fought for the South for other reasons. It's not black and white. It's grey and speckled. The Confederacy was created, in significant part, for and by slavery. It was defended, in significant part, by loyal and honorable men. Who is it that said good against evil is melodrama; good against good is tragedy? Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:00:43 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lquilter Subject: Re: help identifying a novel Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hey y'all. none of the titles you suggested were there yet. thanks for helping. (if you come up with others let me know.) one key point: it was written AT LEAST before the late 1980s, eliminating several of people's suggestions. so, any other ideas? fyi, i'll summarize the titles listed here for your interest: PD James' THE CHILDREN OF MEN. yes, a sudden sterility sweeps the world. but as i recollect there were no forced "labor" camps. focuses in part on the lives of the last generation, right? Zoe Fairbairns BENEFITS. don't remember any sudden sterility. however, takes place in england. really reflects a lot of the author's experiences doing political struggle for welfare, housing, peace. specifically, the "benefit" is a benefit for stay-at-home moms; a salary, basically. but it's used by a conservative government ultimately to harm women's rights. Liz Jensen ARK BABY. Haven't read it. However, it's not the right story -- too recent, for one thing. It *looks* really good, though. Laura Quilter / lquilter@feministsf.org On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, lquilter wrote: > seems like this was british sf; a novel, not a short story. i'm pretty > sure it is NOT Frank Herbert's THE WHITE PLAGUE. > > but, biological warfare (something in the water?) causes almost all women > to be sterile. story takes place in england. an up & coming guy comes up > with a plan to solve the crisis, at least for england; round up the > fertile women & put them in camps where they have babies over & over > again. it turns out his wife is one of them but for the good of the > country he sends her in anyway. fast forward 15 years or so. the guy has > hooked up with his wife's twin sister, a sterile woman he had previously > hated; the wife is miserable (or dead, maybe, i don't remember; certainly > forgotten by the characters); the children of the forced-to-bear women are > now of reproductive age themselves. horror of horrors, they turn out to > be sterile ... it's the end and all this awful mistreatment of people is > for naught. > > now, does this ring any bells for anyone? > > Laura Quilter / lquilter@feministsf.org > > > > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:06:02 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Secesh: after Mixon-Gould In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:31 PM 1/24/01 -0600, Todd Mason wrote: >But slavery was not the reason the war was fought. If there had been no slavery, there would have been no war. Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:08:18 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: the battle flag, & back to Ashcroft In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010124200054.013ac790@pop.enteract.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/24/01 7:00 PM, Neil Rest at NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM wrote: > The Confederacy was > created, in significant part, for and by slavery. It was defended, in > significant part, by loyal and honorable men. > > Who is it that said good against evil is melodrama; good against good is > tragedy? This is so, so true. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:35:59 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: Feminists vs humanists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kate I'm afraid I'm guilty of Humpty Dumpty^Òs "When I use a word, .... it means just what I chose it to mean - neither more nor less", which, as Alice found out, leads only to confusion. I will try to explain what I meant. I cannot consider Terry Pratchett to be a feminist writer. In fact, it would be very easy to build the case that his work is inherently sexist. E.g. Cheery Littlebottom ^Ñcoming out^Ò as female shows itself almost entirely as a wish to wear make-up. Women do not occupy positions of authority in any political, religious or academic institutions, and never seem dissatisfied about it. While the wizards come off worse than the witches I am unhappy with the equation of male = intellectual / hierarchical, female = intuitive / anti-authoritarian. Women who are having social problems can invariably solve them by marrying the right man. The book where Pratchett attempted to tackle sexism ^ÑEqual Rites^Ò, is IMO his worst book. It is several years since I read it and I don^Òt have a copy on hand to refer to, but my impression was that he was saying ^Ñ Women can^Òt compete with men in the male domain, and shouldn^Òt try, but should concentrate on their own fields (and marry the right man)^Ò. However I still count myself as a Pratchett fan. His writing is marked by enormous compassion, and a hated of intolerance, ignorance, arrogance and cruelty. His heart is in the right place. His failings are more in the nature of oversights. E.g. Most of his work shows no awareness that it is possible to be homosexual ^Ö even for the dwarfs, for whom courtship involves burrowing through the other dwarf^Òs clothes to find out what sex they are. However, when in ^ÑThe Last Continent^Ò, a group of drag queens make an appearance (in tribute to ^ÑPricilla, Queen of the Desert^Ò) it is quiet clear that Pratchett is on their side. The butt of the jokes is Rincewind who is too naive to realise what is going on around him. Criticism is reserved for the hostile rednecks who start the fighting (and lose). And, personally speaking, I can forgive virtually anything for lines like ^ÑFemale impersonator is no job for a woman.^Ò Terry Pratchett is on the side on the underdog. He is a moral writer, but he doesn^Òt go for a simplistic story of good versus evil or right versus wrong, but the human muddle of righter versus wronger. Even his bad characters are more to be pitied than despised. The overwhelming feel of his writing is that he likes the human race and wants the best for it, unlike Octavia Butler who give the impression she thinks the human race deserves whatever it gets. It might be argued that it is easy for Pratchett to be complacent since he is white, male and heterosexual, unlike Butler, who isn^Òt. However I match Butler on two counts out of three, and I still feel vastly more comfortable with Pratchett^Òs world view. Jane -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:13:30 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: the battle flag, & back to Ashcroft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kate, IF I were flying the battle flag daily, I agrre it would be insensitive. BUT I fly it one day per year, on Memorial Day, the day we remember our war dead--I don't paint it on top of my car, ala the Dukes of Hazzard, or wear it on a t-shirt. And I don't advocate it's flying over public buildings. Thus I cannot agree with you. If you still think I'm insensitive, so be it. I will continue to march, contribute and agitate for the causes in which I believe, and I will continue to honor my family. After all, that's what free speech is all about. Now can we return to feminist SF? MJV >>> kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM 01/24/01 05:52PM >>> I've been staying out of this entire discussion because, not being an American and therefore knowing very little about the Civil War and its aftereffects, I haven't felt I've had anything to contribute. However, without getting into the content of this argument at all, I'd like to make a point about its structure, as it appears from the outside. To me, the discussion sounds to me very like arguments I have had with very well meaning men, whom I respect deeply, about the use of the word "man" to mean all human beings. I agree that historically, many people using the term really did mean "the human race". I accept that authors writing in previous eras weren't being deliberately sexist. I won't stop reading Kipling because of that either. However, I must point out that the word NOW means something different than it did then. Anyone who RIGHT NOW uses the word "man" to mean people IS being sexist, even if they really believe they are just being historically accurate. Marsha, I don't mean to claim that you ARE being racist for flying the Confederate Flag even if you are doing it for historical reasons that have nothing to do with slavery. I do think, however, that you are being remarkably insensitive to the meanings evoked by the flag AT THIS POINT IN TIME. I have no idea whether or not the Confederate flag could be feasibly separated from connotations of slavery at the time your ancestors were flying it. I do believe that it can't be feasibly separated from these connotations now. I agree totally with Tracy's elegant explication of this point. Kate. >From: Marsha Valance >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] the battle flag, & back to Ashcroft >Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:51:28 -0600 > >Tracy, >we must agree to disagree. You seemingly cannot accept that I can both >abhor slavery and honor my ancestors who fought for the South for other >reasons. It is unfortunate the battle flag has been co-opted as a symbol by >people who pervert its original purpose, but I will be driven away from it, >no more than I will stop reading Kipling because his uniform edition, >published in the 1920s, bears a swastika on the spine of each volume. >I believe we are like in our concerns & causes, disagreeing only in our >associations with certain symbols. >Peace also to you. >MJV >PS: I hope, in the heat of our discussion, you have not neglected to notify >your senators of your opposition to Ashcroft. > > >>> tracyam@US.IBM.COM 01/24/01 03:21PM >>> >I don't want to turn this into a personal attack. All of our various >personal stories can illuminate issue concerning race, hertiage, ect. I'm >speaking to these issues and both of our personal stories in relation to >these issues: > >When you say: > >> > >>I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther > >>King in the 1960s--did you? I was speaking to the mindset of those > >>members of my family who fought for the Confederacy--both on a matter > >>of principle, and whom I honor. > >> > >> > >I'm not sure what you mean about "as a matter of principle..." but on >honoring our ancestors I would say by all means claim you past (in >reference to your ancestors). Know it, know it's truth. But honoring a >past history of enslavement of another people no matter the mind set of the >ancestor, no matter the color of the enslaver (because africans enslaved >other africans in the 1800's -reference available upon request) is a point >many who have southern ancestory fail to see. > >I may have african ancestors who enslaved other africans. If I knew them I >might like them as people, but I would not honor and praise them for taking >part in a war to keep states rights if those states rights included >enslaving others no matter their mind set at the time. There is nothing >honorable in that. (What was the mind set of enslaved African-Americans at >that time?) > > >>I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther > >>King in the 1960s--did you? > >> > >I was born in 1966, so no, I didn't march. I will say again that this is >not a personal attack, but an opportunity to explore issues we are all >affected by. > >The issue is not whether anyone marched with King or how many African >Americans someone knows or has had inside their home or even if soemone is >a >racist. Racism is very complicated and pervasive and none of these >activities absolves any of us from the responsibility to confront these >matters. The crux of the issue is that it is problematic, to put it >mildly, to celebrate, honor, and glorify those who fought to defend a >system predicated upon white supremacy and the ownership of other human >beings. Period. Yes, there were many causes that led to the Civil War, but >the institution of slavery, which was the base of the southern economic >system, and the inability of the North and South to reconcile differing >opinions on this issue was the issue that laid under those other reasons. >This truth is inescapable. This issue is larger than oversimplified >notions of honoring "our forefathers." These people are more than our >"great-great-great-grandfather who owned one slave that he treated very >well" or our "great-great-grandfather who never owned slaves," etc. To >African Americans and many other enlightened people belonging to a variety >of ethnic backgrounds these are the people who fought to perpetuate human >bondage. Flying the Confederate flag also pays homage to those supremecist >ideals. > >Our heritage, and this includes Americans of all socially constructed >races, IS one of genocide (African-Amercian, native-american,etc) whether >we want to face that or not. And I would argue that not facing that >heritage, owning it, and declaring it as totally dishonorable is at the >root of many of the ills that face us as a country today. Perhaps folks >hold on to an honorable and patriotic view of "a" south, of "a" >heritage,"a" honorable rebel flag, because they don't what to face the >totally unhonorable. I would argue, however, that owning our unhonorable >past is the first step towards healing from it. > >Peace > >Tracy > > >Marsha Valance @LISTSERV.UIC.EDU> on 01/24/2001 02:37:43 PM > >Please respond to "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian > literature" > >Sent by: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > > > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >cc: >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] the battle flag > > > >I am not ignoring any American genocide; I marched with Martin Luther King >in the 1960s--did you? I was speaking to the mindset of those members of my >family who fought for the Confederacy--both on a matter of principle, and >whom I honor. I could, but did not chose to, cite another >great-great-grandfather who settled in northern Kentucky and was active in >the Underground Railroad, but since he was a pacifist and didn't fight >under the flag in question, he wasn't relevant. > > > >>> tracyam@US.IBM.COM 01/24/01 01:06PM >>> >I'm a little late on commenting on this post but I just can't hold back. >In reference to: > > >>Marsha Valance > >> Regional Librarian > > >>Neither my > >>great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or > >>fought >for > >>slavery. They fought for their country! > >> . I have had family members who fought for the US during the > >>revolution, > >>WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. > >>I >also > >>have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and > >>Joseph > >>and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and > >>coworkers. > >From these comments I assume you are justifying the Rebel Flag's historical >importance and defining it as being patriotic. You say your ancestors >"didn't fight for slavery but for their country." I must insist: you can't >separate the two. > >I'd like to point out that enslaved African-Americans who were murdered and >raped before, during and after the Civil War were also part of the same >heritage and history as your ancestors. The ancestors of enslaved >African-Americans, of which I am, aren't doing any Civil War re-enactments >by hanging themselves. That would we as absurd as honoring those who >fought as members of the Nazi Army because "they fought for their country." >You can't ignore Jewish genocide during the Holocaust in the name of >patriotism . You can't ignore American genocide (=enslavement of African >Americans) before, during and after the Civil War in the name of patriotism >either. But I guess you can try. Good Luck. > >Tracy A. Mitchell > > > >Amy Harlib @LISTSERV.UIC.EDU> on 01/22/2001 >06:16:37 AM > >Please respond to "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian > literature" > >Sent by: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > > > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >cc: >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) > > > >I think this personal information is FASCINATNG! Amy > > > > OK, I'm afraid I have to weigh in here. My great-great-grandfather was a >Yale undergraduate, born in Connecticut, when the Civil War broke out in >1861. His maternal grandfather and great-grandfather both signed the New >Hampshire Declaration of Independence in 1775--a full year before the U.S. >DofI was written in Philadelphia, and fought throughout the War of >Independence. George was an idealist who believed in state's rights. Born >in >Litchfield, CT, I'm not sure he'd ever seen a slave. But he took ship for >New Orleans in April 1861, and joined the Louisiana artillery, to fight for >state's rights. He fought throughout the war, and settled in SW Louisiana >afterward. His granddaughter, my grandmother, married the son of an Irish >immigrant grocer, Joseph, who enlisted in the Confeederate forces to fight >for his new home, and survived at the Vicksburg siege. Neither my >great-great-grandfather nor my great-grandfather owned slaves or fought for >slavery. They fought for their country! > > . I have had family members who fought for the US during the revolution, >WWI, WWII, Korea, & Vietnam. I honor them by flying an American flag. I >also >have a battle flag, which I fly on Memorial Day, to honor George and Joseph >and their comrades. And I have many African-American friends and coworkers. > > > > > > Marsha Valance > > Regional Librarian > > Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped > > 813 West Wells St. > > Milwaukee, WI 53233 > > > > > > >>> ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM 01/21/01 06:18PM >>> > > on 1/21/01 1:49 PM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > > > > > Cindy, the confederate flag stands for a bunch of seditionists that > > > tried to overthrow the US it insults afican americans and if right > > > wingers are so enamored of a defeated flag that represents traitors to > > > our union, then wear it on your license plate put it in a museum or in > > > your back yard , but don,t force it on us african americans by flying >it > > > over public buildings. What would people say if Germany insisted on > > > flying the swastika over their public buildings? John > > > > > > > > > > John's tone has been very sharp during this debate, and I've winced a >couple > > of times over some of his remarks (as I have over some defensive and >angry > > remarks made on the other side of the debate). I hesitate to >characterize > > anyone's views with as much certainty as John and Cindy have done. >There's > > too much none of us know about each other and why we feel and think the >way > > we do, for me to be willing to take such strong positions based on a few > > phosphors on a screen written in haste and the heat of the moment. > > > > However, I agree wholeheartedly with John on this one. Flying the > > Confederate flag over public buildings is at best incredibly insensitive >to > > African Americans, whose forebears were murdered, tortured, treated as > > property, and denied their basic humanity for generations, under that >flag. > > Slavery only stopped when the Confederate flag came down. However much >the > > current conservatives want to separate the Civil War from slavery, for >the > > blacks whose ancestors were only freed when that war was won by the >North, > > that connection cannot ever be severed. > > > > Pride in one's state and town of birth are natural. (I lived in east >Texas > > for years, and loved the people and the culture, even while I had grave > > problems with the political and religious views that many people held. >It's > > a state full of friendly and generous individuals.) But can you not >see, > > Cindy, how making such a gesture of (white) Southern pride as flying the > > Confederate flag over public buildings, while knowing full well the >feelings > > of humiliation and horror that evokes in the many African American >citizens > > of those states, might be called racist? Insisting on flying the > > Confederate flag under such circumstances disowns the depth of evil that > > enslaving another human entails. > > > > A tangential but relevant question: who here has seen "Finding >Forrester?" > > It's a moving and powerful movie about a young black man with a hidden >gift. > > Among other things, the movie beautifully demonstrates just how >modern-day > > prejudice (and other societal forces) work to keep African Americans >(and > > other minorities) from realizing their true potential in our culture. > > > > > > > > > > > > -l. > > -- > > Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com > > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > ON THE SHELVES--- > > _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * >www.digitalnoir.com/prx > > COMING SOON--- > > "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 > > _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & >intrigue > > A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the >webpage! > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:43:59 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: The wish for a moral past: Rest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" If there had been some other fundamental difference (as there was--plantation-dominated economy vs. one devoted to manufacturing and truck farming, and plantations don't require slaves when one can pay criminally low wages, as is proven every day these days) between the states which seceded and those that didn't, we might well have seen the same war arise. I have to ask, is it important to you that the war have been fought over slavery? TM -----Original Message----- From: Neil Rest [mailto:NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM] At 05:31 PM 1/24/01 -0600, Todd Mason wrote: >But slavery was not the reason the war was fought. If there had been no slavery, there would have been no war. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:39:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tracy A Mitchell Subject: Re: The wish for a moral past: Rest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>I have to ask, is it important to you that the war have been fought >>over slavery? >> >>TM It mattered greatly to enslaved African-Americans, their progeny and hopefully human people everywhere that the war was fought over slavery and that the institution be dismantled. Yes, slavery was an economic system, but more importantly an inhuman one. Its' hard to separate humanity and the economic analysis of reasons behind the Civil War, but I'll try: in order to get people to stay on your land and work for you like a dog, you've got to beat them, often until they are dead. I have many historical references to this point if you would like but I chose not to compare this inhuman economic system with one >> "devoted to manufacturing and truck >>farming" Tracy Please respond to "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sent by: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU cc: Subject: [*FSFFU*] The wish for a moral past: Rest If there had been some other fundamental difference (as there was--plantation-dominated economy vs. one devoted to manufacturing and truck farming, and plantations don't require slaves when one can pay criminally low wages, as is proven every day these days) between the states which seceded and those that didn't, we might well have seen the same war arise. I have to ask, is it important to you that the war have been fought over slavery? TM -----Original Message----- From: Neil Rest [mailto:NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM] At 05:31 PM 1/24/01 -0600, Todd Mason wrote: >But slavery was not the reason the war was fought. If there had been no slavery, there would have been no war. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:52:18 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: The wish for a morall past: Mitchell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I think you misunderstand me, Tracy. The war was not fought about slavery. Slavery has always been an evil that many people in the north and not a few in the south sought to end. These are not contradictory statements. Also, many soldiers and civilians fought to end slavery, but that's not why the Union army as a whole fought. The war was fought because the Lincoln Administration would not accept the attempt by the secessionist states to leave the nation and create their own. Lying to ourselves about why the war was fought does nothing to help us understand the past (and therefore the present and future) nor anything to attempt to heal the wounds from this continuing insanity (hello, Sudan, et alles). As I type, I'm listening to a discussion, sparked by Randall Robinson's work (among others') to seek reparations for slave labor. Hard to argue against reparations, though difficult to decide how to administer them. TM -----Original Message----- From: Tracy A Mitchell [mailto:tracyam@US.IBM.COM] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 11:40 AM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] The wish for a moral past: Rest >>I have to ask, is it important to you that the war have been fought >>over slavery? >> >>TM It mattered greatly to enslaved African-Americans, their progeny and hopefully human people everywhere that the war was fought over slavery and that the institution be dismantled. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:42:47 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: First Contact Book discussion suggestions: Round 3: Hart Comments: To: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Are individual short stories, or novelets or novellas, kosher? If so: fantasy: "The Uncharted Heart" by Melissa Hardy (ONTARIO REVIEW 1998, BEST AMERICAN SHORT STORIES 1999) And two more that may not be in print, but standouts in memory: sf: "Stranger Station" by Damon Knight (hey, come to think of it, the more widely-reprinted "The Country of the Kind" and the novels CV, THE OBSERVERS, and A REASONABLE WORLD by Knight...but the trilogy is op. Which it should not be.) sf: "Ishmael in Love" by Robert Silverberg (to say nothing of WAR WITH THE NEWTS...which I suspect you may've considered. The Capek is great fun. OP in English?) PBS, TM -----Original Message----- From: Maryelizabeth Hart [mailto:publicity@MYSTGALAXY.COM] Actually, it makes me happy to see how many books we have read over the past 8 years that you all find worth recommending. :) And sorry I didn't mention another part of the criteria -- in print, preferably in paperback, and US editions -- in the first post. :) Pax, Maryelizabeth -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:42:23 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: First Contact Book discussion suggestions: Round 3:Hart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, at this point, I've made the choices, but am really enjoying the range of knowledge on the list, so suggest whatever! :) M'e Todd Mason wrote: > Are individual short stories, or novelets or novellas, kosher? > > If so: > fantasy: "The Uncharted Heart" by Melissa Hardy (ONTARIO REVIEW 1998, BEST > AMERICAN SHORT STORIES 1999) > > And two more that may not be in print, but standouts in memory: > > sf: "Stranger Station" by Damon Knight (hey, come to think of it, the more > widely-reprinted "The Country of the Kind" and the novels CV, THE OBSERVERS, > and A REASONABLE WORLD by Knight...but the trilogy is op. Which it should > not be.) > > sf: "Ishmael in Love" by Robert Silverberg (to say nothing of WAR WITH THE > NEWTS...which I suspect you may've considered. The Capek is great fun. OP > in English?) > > PBS, > > TM > -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:33:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Terri Subject: Voting Reminder Comments: To: FEMINISTSF-LIT@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Everyone! Just a reminder, voting ends Monday Jan. 29th at midnight EST. Instructions for voting and the nominated books are listed below............. THANKS!! Terri Please send your votes for your FOUR (4) choices for the next BDG group read to me at...... not to the list!! You should receive a reply from me within 24 hours that I have received your votes. If you do not receive a confirmation from me, please let me know. We don't want anyone's votes to be lost in cyber space! :o) The voting period is from now until midnight, January 29th, USA, EST. The winners will be announced on Tues. Jan. 30th. Everyone please vote. Last selection period was so close it wasn't apparent until the very last moment which nominations were the winners! Your votes do count. Final nominations (14): Dorothy Bryant: The Kin of Ata Are Waiting for You. List Price: $11.95, Paperback Reprint edition (April 1997), Random House (Paper); ISBN: 0679778438 Octavia Butler: Lilith's Brood. Published by Warner Books - ISBN: 0446676101, retail price: 13.95 Keith Hartman: The Gumshoe, the Witch, and the Virtual Corpse. Meisha Merlin Publishing; ISBN: 1892065053; List Price $16.00 Nancy Kress: Beggars in Spain. Mass Market Paperback Reprint edition (March 1994), Avon; ISBN: 0380718774, $6.99US, also available as audio cassette Ursula K. Le Guin, Todd Barton, Margaret Chodos-Irvine, George Hersh: Always Coming Home (California Fiction). Amazon Price: $14.95, Paperback - 525 pages (February 5, 2001), Univ California Press; ISBN: 0520227352. This item will be published on February 5, 2001. Elizabeth A. Lynn: The Northern Girl. 470 pages, ISBN: 0441007279, List Price: $14 Louise Marley: The Terrorists of Irustan. List Price: $5.99, ISBN: 0441007430 Sharyn McCrumb: Bimbos of the Death Sun. List Price: $5.99, Mass Market Paperback - 212 pages, Reprint edition (February 1997), Ballantine Books; ISBN: 034541215X Maureen F. McHugh: Mission Child. List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 370 pages (November 9, 1999), Eos (Mass MMarket); ISBN: 0380791226 (UK edition Orbit, ISBN 1- 85723-861- 3, paperback 6.99 GBP) Vonda N. McIntyre: The Moon and the Sun. List Price: $6.99, Mass Market Paperback - 496 pages (September 1998), Pocket Books; ISBN: 0671567667 Pat Murphy: The Falling Woman. List Price: $11.95, Paperback, Reprint edition (August 1993), Tor Books; ISBN: 0312854064. First published in 1986. Alice Nunn: Illicit Passage. Trade paperback, 250 pages. J. Neil Schulman: The Rainbow Cadenza. List Price: $27.50, Paperback - 394 pages (July 1999), Unknown; ISBN: 15884451238 Virginia Woolf: Orlando : A Biography. Paperback (December 1999), Wordsworth Edition; ISBN: 1853262390, $4.95 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:47:49 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mellen Maynard Subject: Oops - BDG Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OK, let's try this again; I plead flu brain in my defense. The correct book for February is: The Conqueror's Child. Apologies to all. > Yikes; > I¹m late, here¹s your next assignment--- > > Dear Discussion Groupies; > > Should you choose to accept it, your literary mission for February will be; > Nights at the Circus, by Angela Carter. Discussion will be officially started > by the nominator on (or about) the first Monday of February. Enjoy! > > Mellen > For the BDG Volunteers > > Upcoming Books- > Feb. 5, 2001 The Conqueror's Child, by Suzy Mc Kee Charnas > Don¹t forget to vote > *************************************************************************** > > The BDG provides a forum for focusing discussion on a particular book during a > one month period. The books discussed are nominated and chosen in advance by a > vote of all members of the FSFFU-L list serve who choose to vote. Start > thinking about your nominations now. To quote our list-mistress, "This does > not prohibit discussion of the BDG books at other times; nor does it prohibit > discussion of non-BDG books." > > If you have any other questions about the Book Discussion Group (BDG), it's > selections, previous discussions or the Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy and > Utopias Literature List Serve (FSFFU-L), you can start with the BDG website > at; http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304, or the FSFFU-L website at; > http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/fsflit/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:55:21 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: The wish for a moral past: Rest In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:43 AM 1/25/01 -0600, Todd Mason wrote: >If there had been some other fundamental difference (as there >was--plantation-dominated economy vs. one devoted to manufacturing and truck >farming, and plantations don't require slaves when one can pay criminally >low wages, as is proven every day these days) between the states which >seceded and those that didn't, we might well have seen the same war arise. > >I have to ask, is it important to you that the war have been fought over >slavery? > >>>But slavery was not the reason the war was fought. >> >>If there had been no slavery, there would have been no war. What's important to me is clear vision and honesty. Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:44:27 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Feminists vs humanists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 1/25/2001 8:36:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, jane.fletcher@VIRGIN.NET writes: << I cannot consider Terry Pratchett to be a feminist writer. In fact, it would be very easy to build the case that his work is inherently sexist. E.g. Cheery Littlebottom â^À^Øcoming outâ^À^Ù as female shows itself almost entirely as a wish to wear make-up. Women do not occupy positions of authority in any about it. . . >> Jane, You make a very good arguement. I do agree with most of it esp. in regarding Prachett as a humanist. But my view of Cheery's make use is slightly different from yours. Cheery's desire to use make-up and wear dresses seemed more to me a desire to serperate herself from being a tradition dwarf who wears what everyone else wears. She wants to be known as she and as a person. It seems giving the how Pratchett created dwarves, that most shocking way to show a female dwarf desiring to be known as female is to have her wear a dress and make-up. For instance, if Cheery just wore a pants suit and no make-up it would not be considered as "bad" by the dwarf community. (I hope that made sense). In addition, if you're a woman who hasn't worn dress ever (not by your choice but simply because society told you not to), wouldn't you want to? Couldn't you see yourself possibly going overboard? That's the way I see Cheery. Also in regards to authority. Women do tend to be on the bottom of the pole. However, Prachett does show women in varying degrees of power, though as you said not as much as the men. There's Sybil, Cheery and Anuga who have varying degrees of power. And notice that Cheery and Angua are one half of the more mentally "able" half of the watch (Vimes and Carrot being the other) and Vimes trusts them alot. Nanny is the head of her rather large clan. And isn't the dwarven king of Ubernwald (where Anuga comes from) a female (or am I remembering the 5th Elephant incorrectly?). So there are some exceptions to the rule and hopefully Pratchett will make some more. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:14:53 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Favorite book themes Comments: cc: Jean Lamb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I was mentally going over my favorite feminist SF books and noticed some of the reasons I liked or disliked them. For instance, I liked MZB's Free Amazons of Darkover, but disliked RUINS of ISIS. Her commentary on that was that biologically, we're wired for male dominance, "Have you ever seen a vegetarian lion?" she demanded. (Have you ever seen lions where the degree of carnivorousness was determined by economics or culture?), but that she had created a lesbian community she liked. I liked Alison Bechdel's DYKES TO LOOK OUT FOR cartoons, up till the last book, and liked Kate Allen's murder mysteries, set in the Denver lesbian community, but was turned off, hard, by one of Allen's leading characters turning her back on a straight feminist as Not One of Us. Thereby telling me that woman was no feminist, but just a separatist. I liked GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY, but other all-woman communities were not interesting at all. But I really liked some of the older writers' leading female characters like Heinlein's G. Brooks McNye. The flirtatiousness of many of Heinlein's women and their insistence that men, marriage, & babies outweighed all else irritated me. Ayn Rand is no feminist, but Dagny Taggart spoke to me loud and clear, as did Kira Argonouva somethat. Her Domininque Francon is totally incomprehensible to me, and, I think, insane. Suzette Haden Elgin is outspokenly feminist, but I can only pity most of her female characters - including Responsible of Brightwater. Isaac Asimov is certainly not a feminist, and his Susan Calvin was described in terms to make even the Total Woman theorists wince, but she's still memorable enough (I see her played by a middle-aged Jodie Foster.) It came to me at last that the common theme is that of independent women. And with so many women of action out there now, in mainstream literature and movies, it's not just the mindless Rambo-in-skirts I like, but the *thinking* style independent woman. And cultures which allow her to exist. Allen's characters and the cartoons showed no-nonsense women actually thinking about things that mattered, at least to a great extent. That's why I liked them. I turned off them when they started sinking back into the swamps of sex, how to dress, who you love (not trivial, but not of as much interest to me), identity politics, and things like that. Just my $0.02 Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:37:51 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: More on favorites Comments: cc: Jean Lamb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It's occurred to me the only reason I was interested in all-woman societies at all was the chance they gave for women to act independently and do things that in my youth were so firmly reserved for men, it was even thought women couldn't do them! And certainly shouldn't. With variations for class and race, of course. (Incredible quote, from a man my age to me. "But in my mother's day, women didn't work. Why, she even had a maid!" My answer "And what was the maid? A man? Or an android?" He answered "Huh?") Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:00:34 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Candioglos, Sandy" Subject: Re: More on favorites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What he MEANT, of course, was "LADIES didn't work." And anyone with the audacity to be born into a poor family and not be able to marry rich definitely didn't qualify as a lady, right? *sigh*. -Sandy > -----Original Message----- > > It's occurred to me the only reason I was interested in all-woman > societies at all was the chance they gave for women to act > independently > and do things that in my youth were so firmly reserved for men, it was > even thought women couldn't do them! And certainly shouldn't. With > variations for class and race, of course. (Incredible quote, > from a man my > age to me. "But in my mother's day, women didn't work. Why, > she even had a > maid!" My answer "And what was the maid? A man? Or an android?" He > answered "Huh?") > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:07:02 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: More on favorites In-Reply-To: <794826DE8867D411BAB8009027AE9EB903D4EC53@FMSMSX38> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Candioglos, Sandy wrote: > What he MEANT, of course, was "LADIES didn't work." And anyone with the > audacity to be born into a poor family and not be able to marry rich > definitely didn't qualify as a lady, right? > > *sigh*. > Sigh. Yes. I think that's it.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:24:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: More on favorites In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Pat, Amusing story. Obviously to him, the maid was invisible. I agree with you about the books that let women be independent and intelligent. I liked _The Gate to Women's Country_ for that reason too. Now from the feminist perspective I can see that there are problems in the book too, but still in all I think it's a pretty good story. Have you ever read Elisabeth Vonarburg's _In the Mother's Land_? It's similar to Women's Country but a bit more developed. Rose >It's occurred to me the only reason I was interested in all-woman >societies at all was the chance they gave for women to act independently >and do things that in my youth were so firmly reserved for men, it was >even thought women couldn't do them! And certainly shouldn't. With >variations for class and race, of course. (Incredible quote, from a man my >age to me. "But in my mother's day, women didn't work. Why, she even had a >maid!" My answer "And what was the maid? A man? Or an android?" He >answered "Huh?") > >Patricia (Pat) Mathews >mathews@unm.edu > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:35:14 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: john vasquez Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC In-Reply-To: <12272-3A7133DF-4308@storefull-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have removed John Vasquez from both lists, by his request. This is the only time, I think, I have had to do this in -- what, 5 years? -- of maintaining feministsf listserves. And I regretted it. But I had given him a serious warning about his general behavior on the list during the recent discussion on Ashcroft, conservative feminism, etc. And then he followed it up with an extremely inappropriate post on feministsf-lit. I warned him again, and told him that after another similar post I would remove him from the list. He responded & asked to be removed (rudely, of course). So I've taken him off. Anyway, I regret both his inappropriate behavior, and that I thereby needed to exercise power & discretion to handle it. But there it is. I guess I've been spoiled by the willingness to cooperate from all of you. Although the list(s) have had their disagreements etc. people have generally -- and especially lately -- been willing to respond to guidance about appropriate list conduct. So, thanks to all of you who've been around during the last week or so. I would appreciate any comments & feedback on this, umm, incident, that any of you have. Probably off-list is best. Depressed, Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net list-mistress, feministsf & feministsf-lit -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 22:57:35 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: OFF TOPIC - -Infro about how to try to avoid rape situtions and defense tech. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm forwarding this message, hoping that no one will need to use it, just need to know it. This e-mail is a quick, extremely interesting and useful read for women. I just finished taking the most amazing self-defense class, and I wanted to share some really valuable info with you before it goes out of my head. The guy who taught the class has a female friend who was attacked last year in the parking garage at Westport Plaza in St. Louis one night after work and taken to an abandoned house and raped. So, he started a women's group and began teaching these classes soon after. This guy is a black belt in karate and trains twice a year with Steven Segall. He and the others in this group interviewed a bunch of rapists and date rapists in prison on what they look for and here's some interesting facts: The #1 thing men look for in a potential victim is hairstyle. They are most likely to go aft! ! ! er a woman with a ponytail, bun, braid, or other hairstyle that can easily be grabbed. They are also likely to go after a woman with long hair. Women with short hair are not common targets. The second thing men look for is clothing. They will look for women who's clothing is easy to remove quickly. The #1 outfit they look for is overalls because many of them carry scissors around to cut clothing and on overalls, the straps can be easily cut. They also look for women on their cell phone, searching through their purse or doing other activities while walking because they are off guard and can be easily overpowered. The time of day men are most likely to attack and rape a woman is in the early morning, between 5 and 8:30 a.m. The number one place women are abducted from/attacked at is grocery store parking lots. Number two is office parking lots/garages. Number three is public restrooms. The thin! ! ! g about these men is that they are looking to grab a woman ! and quickly move her to a second location where they don't have to worry about getting caught. Only 2% said they carried weapons because rape carries a 3-5 year sentence but rape with a weapon is 15-20 years. If you put up any kind of a fight at all, they get discouraged because it only takes a minute or two for them to realize that going after you isn't worth it because it will be time-consuming. These men said they will not pick on women who have umbrellas, or other similar objects that can be used from a distance, in their hands. Keys are not a deterrent because you have to get really close to the attacker to use them as a weapon. So, the idea is to convince these guys you're not worth it. Several defense mechanisms he taught us are: * If someone is following behind you on a street or in a garage or with you in an elevator or stairwell, look them in the face and ask them a question, like what time is it, o! ! ! r make general small talk, I can't believe it is so cold out here, we're in for a bad winter. Now you've seen their face and could identify them in a lineup, you lose appeal as a target. * If someone is coming toward you, hold out your hands in front of you and yell Stop or Stay back! Most of the rapists this man talked to said they'd leave a woman alone if she yelled or showed that she would not be afraid to fight back. Again, they are looking for an EASY target. If you carry pepper spray (this instructor was a huge advocate of it and carries it with him wherever he goes), yelling I HAVE PEPPER SPRAY and holding it out will be a deterrent. * If someone grabs you, you can't beat them with strength but you can by outsmarting them. If they grab your wrist, pull your wrist back so your hand is in waving position (palm facing forward) and twist it toward yourself and pull your arm away. It is hard to hold onto wr! ! ! ist bones that are moving in that way. They stumbl! e toward you and you stumble back, so you can use that momentum to bring the same out and backhand them with your knuckles in the forehead, nose, or teeth. * If you are grabbed around the waist from behind, pinch the attacker either under the arm between the elbow and armpit or in the upper inner thigh. HARD. One woman in a class this guy taught told him she used the underarm pinch on a guy who was trying to date rape her and was so upset she broke through the skin and tore out muscle strands - the guy needed stitches. Try pinching yourself in those places as hard as you can stand it. It hurts. * After the initial hit, always go for the groin. I know from a particularly unfortunate experience that if you slap a guy's balls (sorry to be graphic) it is extremely painful. You might think that you'll piss the guy off and make him want to hurt you more, but the thing these rapists told our instructor is that they want! ! ! a woman who will not cause a lot of trouble. Start causing trouble and he's out of there. * When the guy puts his hands up to you, grab his first two fingers and bend them back as far as possible with as much pressure pushing down on them as possible. The instructor did it to me without using much pressure and I ended up on my knees and both knuckles cracked audibly. Of course the things we always hear still apply. Always be aware of your surroundings, take someone with you if you can and if you see any odd behavior, don't dismiss it, go with your instincts. You may feel a little silly at the time, but you'd feel much worse if the guy really was trouble. Please forward this to any woman you know, it's simple stuff that could save her life. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:49:32 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: MZB as intermittent feminist In-Reply-To: <200101060601.AAA40816@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Todd Mason wrote: > > We may also keep in mind her desire to keep relatively little-known > her pioneering writing about lesbian literature for THE LADDER back in > the '50s, and the results of the discovery of her eventual > ex-husband's activities as a child molester. I suspect she had rather > mixed feelings about a number of issues. ??? I've not heard about either of these two incidents. Could you let me know more about these events? Thanks- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:15:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: More on favorites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Touche! What a great come back line! Amy > It's occurred to me the only reason I was interested in all-woman > societies at all was the chance they gave for women to act independently > and do things that in my youth were so firmly reserved for men, it was > even thought women couldn't do them! And certainly shouldn't. With > variations for class and race, of course. (Incredible quote, from a man my > age to me. "But in my mother's day, women didn't work. Why, she even had a > maid!" My answer "And what was the maid? A man? Or an android?" He > answered "Huh?") > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews > mathews@unm.edu > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 11:50:55 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: MZB as intermittent feminist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, she wasn't too keen, apparently, on either bit of info being widely publicized. I first saw references to her LADDER work in the old, stodgy but pioneering SEX-VARIANT WOMEN IN LITERATURE; the first reference to her ex's proclivities I read was in Harlan Ellison's long essay of about ten years ago, "Xenogenesis." There are other citations available with a little digging, though I can't cite them offhand. TM -----Original Message----- From: John Snead [mailto:sneadj@MINDSPRING.COM] Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 11:50 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] MZB as intermittent feminist Todd Mason wrote: > > We may also keep in mind her desire to keep relatively little-known > her pioneering writing about lesbian literature for THE LADDER back in > the '50s, and the results of the discovery of her eventual > ex-husband's activities as a child molester. I suspect she had rather > mixed feelings about a number of issues. ??? I've not heard about either of these two incidents. Could you let me know more about these events? Thanks- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:18:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erica Obey Subject: remove MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C08895.DE382520" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C08895.DE382520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please remove from mailing list ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C08895.DE382520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please remove from mailing = list
 
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C08895.DE382520-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:37:52 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: remove MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01C0887F.7DFE0F00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C0887F.7DFE0F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Erica Obey=20 To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU=20 Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 4:18 PM Subject: [*FSFFU*] remove Please remove from mailing list ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C0887F.7DFE0F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Erica Obey=20
Sent: Saturday, January 27, = 2001 4:18=20 PM
Subject: [*FSFFU*] remove

Please remove from mailing = list
 
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C0887F.7DFE0F00-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 23:05:51 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Julia Lyall Subject: Horror & Sci-Fi Fantasy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been going through Terry Brooks' recent "Word vs. Void" works: 'Running with the Demon', 'A Knight of the Word' & 'Angel Fire East'. I know he's been better known for his (somewhat Tolkien-derivative) "Shannara" series, though I prefer his more lighthearted work, 'Magic Kingdom for Sale - Sold'. But what I particularly like is his compassionate handling of the character, Nest Freemark; her conflict with her mixed demon/human heritage and her gradual self-development. On a different track, though getting extremely convoluted, is Tad Williams' "Otherland" volumes. I'm fascinated by the scenario of near-future technology and how it can all easily go 'wrong'. There are several views of the events that take place; diferrent genders, age groups and socio-cultural perspectives, which are fairly interesting, if a trifle confusing at times. If anyone else has read them, I'm interested to know what other perspectives they might have. ------------------------------- Beam to http://www.StarTrek.com The official site of the Star Trek universe -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:39:50 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Gender Differences On-Line In-Reply-To: <01012723055144.27707@weba6.iname.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Here is an absolutely fascinating academic look at flaming and online discourse: http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/gender/herring.txt -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ _Proxies_: A Tor Books SF paperback Nov 1999 * ISBN 0-812-52387-3 "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:26:18 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Gender Differences On-Line MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fascinating. In aggregate, probably still pretty true, even though it is 7 years old, and built on anecdotal evidence. I'm not sure I understand her definition of "flame", though...I think "ad hom" attacks are pretty universally frowned upon on groups and lists with official owners, and, to me, that's when 'heated discussion' turns into 'flame war' anyway...I don't see that you can classify a rant that doesn't have any personal attacks in it as a flame, though this author seems to think it is. Do I just have an atypical-for-a-female viewpoint, or is my view skewed from being mostly on mailing lists that are reasonably civilized, rather than wading through unmoderated usenet? :) -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:45:50 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Gender Differences On-Line MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/29/01 12:35:08 AM, scandiog@YAHOO.COM writes: << Do I just have an atypical-for-a-female viewpoint, or is my view skewed from being mostly on mailing lists that are reasonably civilized, rather than wading through unmoderated usenet? :) >> I can't answer that question, but I certainly have noticed the gender differenes that are pointed out in this article. What fascinates me is how it is possible -- from syntax, sentence length etc --to pick up emotional tags when emailing or talking to people on instant messages. There -- I just said the magic word -- *talking*!! Of course, we are not *talking* we are *writing*. More needs to be thought along these lines. lightly, lightly, phoebe w -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.