From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 15:29:58 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:28:06 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0102B" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:03:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lydia Lynsdaughter Subject: Keanu Reeves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I did find the idea of a white, male savior > to be a bit old hat (an understatement, there). > But, strange to say, I think Keanu Reeves was > an asset. White? Keanu Reeves? First time I saw him in a movie, I thought, 'That guy's Asian'. I don't happen to think he could act his way out of a wet paper bag but he is one gorgeous hunk ... To set the record straight, Keanu Reeves is to be one-quarter Chinese. -- Lydia ------------------------------------------------------ Get the Latest News at CNN Interactive: http://CNN.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:56:24 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with you, but I guess what I mean is that I wish that there was far more support that there is for people who wish to continue pregnancies, to the extent that having a child is not seen as 'ruining your life' At present, having a child young is always going to disadvantage you. Australia has an extremely good welfare system, and recipients aren't stigmatised the way it seems as though they are in the US, and financial aid is also given for education and child care to anyone on a low income. I guess really, I am talking about people's perceptions- it is seen as a disaster- being 'in trouble' etc. I suppose , thinking about it, the ready availability of termination means that some people' attitude can lean toward the feeling that continuing with an unplanned pregnancy is irresponsible. . I apologise to talk about personal stuff,, but I guess this is stemming from my own experience with unplanned pregnancy, where my (very feminist) mother had me booked in for a termination practically before the stick had finished turning pink. I think having a child was the making of me, and she is my best friend. Sorry again to get all personal! Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:12:46 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Keanu Reeves, mostly Cauc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Those of us, like myself, of diverse "racial" ancestry, are perhaps uniquely aware of how remarkably stupid the concept of human race is. Like Mr. Reeves, I "pass" for pale Cauc. Both literally and ironically, lucky us, in most situations, at very least in the US or Mr. Reeves's native Canada. TM (who remembers well when his HS classmate, a very-dark-brown complected Sri Lankhan native, came to school wearing a sign which correctly stated "I am a Caucasian," and being pleased to inform him that he was indeed not only a Caucasian, but more Cauc than I. By South African apartheid standards, I think both Reeves and I, and certainly my Japanese-Caucasian friends, would be honorarily White. Makes one Warm All Over. Italian-English-Cherokee-French (Canadian)-Irish-Scottish-Mohawk-German, at last report, for anyone who's curious, and about as much Abo for this continent as Reeves is Celestial.) -----Original Message----- From: Lydia Lynsdaughter [mailto:gadfly@BEEN-THERE.COM] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:03 AM > I did find the idea of a white, male savior > to be a bit old hat (an understatement, there). > But, strange to say, I think Keanu Reeves was > an asset. White? Keanu Reeves? First time I saw him in a movie, I thought, 'That guy's Asian'. I don't happen to think he could act his way out of a wet paper bag but he is one gorgeous hunk ... To set the record straight, Keanu Reeves is to be one-quarter Chinese. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:27:52 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Ashcroft In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 2/8/01 3:56 AM, Maire Shanahan at MaireShanahan@AOL.COM wrote: > I think having a child was the making of me, and she is my best friend. > Sorry again to get all personal! > Maire No need to apologize! I absolutely agree with you -- having kids was one of the best things that has ever happened to me. And I'm sure you are right that there are plenty of women pressured to have abortions by friends and family members, who don't want them. Pro-choice should mean that _you_ choose! -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ _Proxies_: A Tor Books SF paperback Nov 1999 * ISBN 0-812-52387-3 "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 02:07:26 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC - -Infro about how to try to avoid rape situtions and... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been going through the massive backlog of email I have, and found this one with techniques to deter potential rapists. My uncle, who is a policeman in charge of sex crimes, said that often women don't fight back because they are afraid of enraging the attacker/ provoking violence. He said the unfortunate truth is, that if you do fight back, you will probably be severely beaten, but you probably *won't* be raped. Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:35:20 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Ashcroft In-Reply-To: <200102090601.AAA39086@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maire Shanahan wrote: > > I agree with you, but I guess what I mean is that I wish that there > was far more support that there is for people who wish to continue > pregnancies, to the extent that having a child is not seen as 'ruining > your life' At present, having a child young is always going to > disadvantage you. Australia has an extremely good welfare system, and > recipients aren't stigmatised the way it seems as though they are in > the US, and financial aid is also given for education and child care > to anyone on a low income. I guess really, I am talking about people's > perceptions- it is seen as a disaster- being 'in trouble' etc. I > suppose , thinking about it, the ready availability of termination > means that some people' attitude can lean toward the feeling that > continuing with an unplanned pregnancy is irresponsible. . Perhaps their behavior and attitudes merely seem irresponsible to you. Also, what if they are. Folks should have the right to be as irresponsible with their own bodies as they want. I have no objection to having more support for women who want kids, but only if it's not at the expense of support for women who don't. Also, on a more global level, we are facing some serious overpopulation on this planet. Every birth prevented is a bit more resources for the rest of us. The world population is already over *6* billion and will likely not start to decline until it hits 9 or 10 billion. Current figures are clear that the population will go down from there, but even 9 or 10 billion people mean lots of extinct animals, exhausted resources, pollution, and similar extremely serious problems. Any form of encouraging births simply doesn't seem responsible today. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:57:57 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: abortion an envt issue? Surely not! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Perhaps their behaviour and attitudes merely seem irresponsible to you. " (Snead) 'm a bit confused about your post- were you responding to me, or just giving an opinion about something I was saying that I didn't like the way that the ready availability if termination meant that some people were leaning toward thinking that continuing with an unplanned pregnancy is irresponsible. I can't quite see the relevance of your post, I'm not saying it's not valid, but I don't think it as an appropriate response. I don't think anyone is going to advocate termination on the basis of global overcrowding. However, I do think overpopulation it is a good reason to have only one child (I'm stopping at one child, because I feel I can't justify having more in this day of diminishing resources and overpopulation) But that is an entirely separate issue. Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:10:11 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: abortion an envt issue? Surely not! In-Reply-To: <5e.6fbbeca.27b50b15@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I don't think anyone is >going to advocate termination on the basis of global overcrowding. Um, yes, they are going to advocate that. It's the law in China. ----- The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign the conspiracy is working. Chris Shaffer chris@bsinc.net http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:43:27 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Diana Lago Subject: About feminism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi everybody My name is Nuria (Diana is just my pen name). I^Òm not used to posting to this list very much, mostly because I can^Òt speak English properly; I^Òm very sorry about all my spelling mistakes. I hope I will make sense. I enjoy being in this list very, very much. I love science fiction and I^Òm a feminist. I thought these were obvious features or consequences of being here. I also want to apologise if I^Òm repeating something, because I could not read all the last post, so I will probably say something that has already said, or I^Òm missing some more information, but, days ago I read here a distinction between conservative and liberal feminism... Well, I have never heard of that distinction. Where I come from, Spain, Europe, the only distinction I know is between the feminism of the equal and the feminism of the difference, but both are left winged in any case. It is just a conceptual distinction. Feminism per se can never be conservative, in the way I understand the meaning of that word. We do not have anything to be conserved. We have to denounce everything. Once again if the English things is getting me confused with this entire debate, but I have never know a conservative feminist. I though every single feminist would always be pro choice. I though every single feminist would never be afraid of words. That^Òs way feminism finds a perfect room in the science fiction gender. Just another opinion from another continent, another country. Kind regards Nuria >From: Maire Shanahan >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] OFF TOPIC - -Infro about how to try to avoid rape > situtions and... >Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 02:07:26 EST > >I have been going through the massive backlog of email I have, and found >this >one with techniques to deter potential rapists. My uncle, who is a >policeman >in charge of sex crimes, said that often women don't fight back because >they >are afraid of enraging the attacker/ provoking violence. He said the >unfortunate truth is, that if you do fight back, you will probably be >severely beaten, but you probably *won't* be raped. >Maire > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:41:44 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: About feminism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Diana Lago wrote: > said, or I^Òm missing some more information, but, days ago I read here a > distinction between conservative and liberal feminism... > > Well, I have never heard of that distinction. Where I come from, Spain, > Europe, the only distinction I know is between the feminism of the equal and > the feminism of the difference, but both are left winged in any case. It is > just a conceptual distinction. Feminism per se can never be conservative, in > the way I understand the meaning of that word. > I like that wording!!! Could you tell us a little more about how Spanish feminists define those terms?> > > > >From: Maire Shanahan > >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > > > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] OFF TOPIC - -Infro about how to try to avoid rape > > situtions and... > >Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 02:07:26 EST > > > >I have been going through the massive backlog of email I have, and found > >this > >one with techniques to deter potential rapists. My uncle, who is a > >policeman > >in charge of sex crimes, said that often women don't fight back because > >they > >are afraid of enraging the attacker/ provoking violence. He said the > >unfortunate truth is, that if you do fight back, you will probably be > >severely beaten, but you probably *won't* be raped. > >Maire > > > >-------------------------------------------------- > >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:53:12 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Debbie Notkin Subject: Re: abortion an envt issue? Surely not! In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010209060927.00af8538@bsinc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:10 AM 2/9/2001 -0600, you wrote: >>I don't think anyone is >>going to advocate termination on the basis of global overcrowding. > >Um, yes, they are going to advocate that. It's the law in China. Just to be clear about this. Termination is _not_ the law in China. One child to a family is the law in China. Everyone knows perfectly well that this _results_ in termination of female infants, and they don't change the law, but the government doesn't mandate the termination. I think it's important to be careful here because of how easy it is to sound racist about such things. -- Debbie Notkin kith@slip.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:09:09 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: abortion an envt issue? Surely not! In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010209075216.0097bf00@pop.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 2/9/2001 09:53 AM, you wrote: >Just to be clear about this. Termination is _not_ the law in China. One >child to a family is the law in China. Everyone knows perfectly well that >this _results_ in termination of female infants, and they don't change the >law, but the government doesn't mandate the termination. I'm pretty sure mandated abortions occur in China. I wasn't talking about voluntary abortion based on gender of fetus, though of course that happens. A quick web search found this US government document (http://ehpnet1.niehs.nih.gov/docs/1993/101-4/forum.html) which refers to "China's mandated abortion policy." A US State Department Human Rights Report (http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/1997_hrp_report/china.html) states "The Government prohibits the use of force to compel persons to submit to abortion or sterilization, but poor supervision of local officials who are under intense pressure to meet family planning targets can result in instances of abuse, including forced abortion and sterilization. During an unauthorized pregnancy, a woman is often visited by family planning agents and pressured to terminate the pregnancy." A later quote in the same document says "The Maternal and Child Health Care Law, which came into effect in 1995, calls for premarital and prenatal examinations to determine whether couples have acute infectious diseases, certain mental illnesses (not including mental retardation), or are at risk for passing on debilitating genetic diseases. The Ministry of Health, not the State Family Planning Commission, implements the law, which mandates abortion or sterilization in some cases, based on medical advice." >I think it's important to be careful here because of how easy it is to >sound racist about such things. I didn't think what I said was racist in any way at all. If it sounded that way, I apologize. ----- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." --Thomas Edison Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ chris@bsinc.net AIM:ChrisShaff -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:22:19 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: About feminism In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Nuria, it's wonderful to read your post! Your English is fine. In our country, the religious right has put a lot of money and effort into redefining key political issues in ways that fit their beliefs, which are strongly rooted in traditional fundamentalist Christianity (by "fundamentalist" I mean they take every word in the Bible as being literally true). One of these issues is feminism. Some of those on the left are cynical about this effort and see it as merely an attempt to undercut true feminism by redefining it out of existence. (And in fact, after seeing how carefully orchestrated the right wing power base's efforts to win this past presidential election were, I believe there may indeed be a grain of truth in this.) Also, as a movement it doesn't work for me personally, because (a) patriarchy is too deeply rooted in the Judeo-Christian tradition, imo, for true equality between the sexes to co-exist with a traditionalist literal reading of the bible; and (b) I prefer sexual egalitarianism (where both sexes have a wider range of life choices open to them) to sexual parity (where each sex has separate and distinct roles, but both are given equal importance in terms of power and recognition, which is one traditional model that has worked in JudeoChristian tradition and which arguably the feminist right may be trying for). However, while I am doubtful that conservative feminists will be truly successful in their aims without letting go of certain elements of their conservatism, I believe that if intelligent and educated women grapple honestly with this issue on their own terms, it is only to the best, and I hope that conservative feminists are successful in building their own strength within their own communities, for themselves and for their daughters -- and their sons, for that matter! It's also possible that with the rise of conservative feminism, we might be able to find common ground on issues of mutual concern. Perhaps ultimately there can begin to be a bridge made between the right and the left in this country, with regard to some of the most difficult issues we struggle with, such as how to protect our communities from pollution, poverty, hunger, and ignorance. (OK, call me an optimist... :) -l. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:04:11 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Diana Lago Subject: Re: About feminism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi again > I like that wording!!! Could you tell us a little more about how >Spanish feminists define those terms?> > Thank you very much, Pat. Hey, that^Òs such a difficult matter to explain deeply. Well, just let me introduce about that issue briefly and I promise that when I have a little more time, I will be more specific. Basically both feminism are base in the same idea, men are women must have the same chances to everything. No discrimination in all senses, yes, but the feminism of the equal says that men and women are the same, biologically speaking and in all terms. The feminism of the difference says that men and women are not the same, and we face things in a different way. In that sense both ideologies takes different roads dialectically. They don^Òt fight against prejudices the same way. That^Òs a very quick view, but I promise I will be more explicit. Kind regards Nuria _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:10:33 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Diana Lago Subject: Re: About feminism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Laura (do you know you have such a very Spanish name? Just an anecdote, sorry!). Thank you very much for your thoughtful words, thank you. I will read your post carefully. I don't know if I am an optimist. Sometimes I see between 'lines' the path we have to cross and go ahead, and scares me a bit. It's a big, big wall. Kind regards Nuria _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:19:33 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: About feminism In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 2/9/01 11:10 AM, Diana Lago at dianalago@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > Hi Laura (do you know you have such a very Spanish name? Just an anecdote, > sorry!). No apology needed. I've heard it pronounced that way many times. :) Yo hablo un poco, tambie'n; yo vivo en Nuevo Me'xico, un estado en los EEUU donde hay mucha gente hispanica, y lo estudiaba espan~ol cuando era nin~a. (I hope I didn't butcher my Spanish too much... :) > I will read your post carefully. I don't know if I am an optimist. Sometimes > I see between 'lines' the path we have to cross and go ahead, and scares me > a bit. It's a big, big wall. You're indeed correct. It is a big wall, or chasm. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ _Proxies_: A Tor Books SF paperback Nov 1999 * ISBN 0-812-52387-3 "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:10:29 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: About feminism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/9/2001 7:44:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, dianalago@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << but I have never know a conservative feminist. I though every single feminist would always be pro choice. >> Hi Nuria, Don't worry about your English. If some of my students, who are native born speakers of English, could express themselves as clearly as you do I would very happy. I think the problem with consevative is in the defination. Where I live, if you are a Republican you're a Conservative. Which isn't always the same thing. So if people here in the States have problems with the ideas or who they apply to I can't see how the rest of the world can figure it out. But for what you said about abortion, I would like to point something out. First off I don't want to start another abortion debate, so please don't yell at me. I went to college that was run by nuns. Some of these nuns believed that the Catholic Church was wrong in not allowing women to become priests, and wrong in its stance about birth control. But at the same time, some of these same nuns belived that abortion was wrong, and opposed it (with the exception of rape). They didn't define themselves as pro-choice but as pro-life. But to say they are not feminists because of this one belief, where they take the feminist stance in others, seems wrong to me. The problem with abortion is that it is both a feminist issue and a life issue. I have seen women who feel strongly about other women's issues state they are pro-life who aren't nuns. I do not intend to insult you, so please do not be offend. I'm just trying to give an example of how maybe someone could be both a feminist and pro-life. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:24:53 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: abortion an envt issue? Surely not! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although I was the one who stated that I didn't think anyone was going to advocate termination on he basis of overcrowding- I agree that in China, I am pretty sure that if you are discovered to be pregnant after your quota, you can be forced to have an abortion (or is it only if it is your third child, and you are already over quota) Certainly, In Tibet, forced terminations and sterilisations are the go. (Forget the fact that %30 of their population is celibate (monks/nuns) prevents their population escalating, and not to mention he severe depletion of their population due to Chinese atrocities... a million Tibetans have committed suicide since the Chinese invaded eg) I think we all realise that I was not referring to Chinese politicians. Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:44:31 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: abortion an envt issue? Surely not! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just remember about 2-3 years ago there was a senate committee to hear stories of how China implements birth quotas within rural provinces or villages...there was a young woman who explained how she was pressured to not have a second child, and how employment opportunities were lost when it became known of her status, as well as they made less subsidies(forgot the name of that where you received coupons for special items and services? if you only had one kid you got a lot more of these things) to keep afloat. What I am sure we will hear more of in the next dozen years or so is the disproportionate number of males of marriage age unable to find suitable mates because of the practices to discard female babies at birth, as well as the use of abortion to discard those unwanted numbers. I > am pretty sure that if you are discovered to be pregnant after your quota, > you can be forced to have an abortion (or is it only if it is your third > child, and you are already over quota) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:29:16 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: abortion an envt issue? Surely not! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What I am sure we will hear more of in the next dozen years or so is the > disproportionate number of males of marriage age unable to find suitable > mates because of the practices to discard female babies at birth, as well as > the use of abortion to discard those unwanted numbers. Yup, probably. Bujold touched on that in um...was it Civil Campaign, where the family of all girls talks about why they're all girls. When the technology to choose the gender came to the planet, Cordelia advised their mother to have girls because MOST families were having all boys, and she could tell there would be a long-term need and benefit to having girls. :) -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:39:27 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: abortion an envt issue? Surely not! In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My understanding is that the primary means of enforcing the one-child rule is actually peer pressure. The fact that there was a famine in fairly recent history (40s?), so severe that many families were forced to choose which child(ren) should starve so that one might live, probably reinforced the need in many people's minds for such stringent birth control measures. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:38:05 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gwen Veazey Subject: Bible literalists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C09355.EEB95340" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C09355.EEB95340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am enjoying the discussion on choice, Spanish feminists, etc. How = nice to hear from folks in Spain, Australia, and elsewhere. May I offer = a comment, Laura? Re: In our country, the religious right has put a lot of money and effort = into redefining key political issues in ways that fit their beliefs, which = are strongly rooted in traditional fundamentalist Christianity (by "fundamentalist" I mean they take every word in the Bible as being = literally true). =20 I believe the Christian fundamentalists would love for you to think they = take every word in the Bible as being literally true. In my = understanding, they tend to be selective in their literalism. For = instance, they're not interested in promoting slavery and monarchy, = which the Bible certainly allows. They ignore much of Leviticus and the = Old Testament in particular. I like Proverbs 8:22-31! Wisdom is = personified as a woman/goddess who participated in Creation. (Some = speculate Egyptian influence [Goddess Ma`at] slipping in.) But the = fundamentalists have little use for that passage. I am not trying to defend the Bible, which continues to be used by some = as a powerful weapon against women, but wanted to send these thoughts in = the interest of identifying inconsistencies. Best, Gwen (A recovering Southern Baptist) ------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C09355.EEB95340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am enjoying the discussion on choice, Spanish = feminists,=20 etc.  How nice to hear from folks in Spain, Australia, and = elsewhere. =20 May I offer a comment, Laura?  Re:
 
In our country, the religious right has put a lot of money and = effort=20 into
redefining key political issues in ways that fit their beliefs, = which=20 are
strongly rooted in traditional fundamentalist Christianity=20 (by
"fundamentalist" I mean they take every word in the Bible as = being=20 literally
true). 
 
I believe the Christian fundamentalists would love = for you to=20 think they take every word in the Bible as being literally true.  = In my=20 understanding, they tend to be selective in their literalism.  For=20 instance, they're not interested in promoting slavery and monarchy, = which the=20 Bible certainly allows.  They ignore much of Leviticus and the = Old=20 Testament in particular.  I like Proverbs 8:22-31!  Wisdom is=20 personified as a woman/goddess who participated in Creation.  (Some = speculate Egyptian influence [Goddess Ma`at] slipping=20 in.)     But the fundamentalists have little use for = that=20 passage.
 
I am not trying to defend the Bible, = which continues to=20 be used by some as a powerful weapon against women, but wanted to = send=20 these thoughts in the interest of identifying = inconsistencies.
 
Best,
Gwen
(A recovering Southern=20 Baptist)
------=_NextPart_000_00AA_01C09355.EEB95340-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:41:17 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Bible literalists In-Reply-To: <00ad01c0937f$d84f9e00$1884cbcf@vistatech.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3064664477_130683_MIME_Part" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3064664477_130683_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 2/10/01 9:38 AM, Gwen Veazey at gveazey@VISTATECH.NET wrote: I believe the Christian fundamentalists would love for you to think they take every word in the Bible as being literally true. In my understanding, they tend to be selective in their literalism. Absolutely! Forgive my shorthand. It was an oversimplification. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! --MS_Mac_OE_3064664477_130683_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [*FSFFU*] Bible literalists on 2/10/01 9:38 AM, Gwen Veazey at gveazey@VISTATECH.NET wrote:

I believe the Christian fundamentalists would lo= ve for you to think they take every word in the Bible as being literally tru= e.  In my understanding, they tend to be selective in their literalism.=  

Absolutely!  Forgive my shorthand.  It was an oversimplification.=

-l.
--
Laura J. Mixon      *  ljm@digitalnoir.com &n= bsp;    *  www.digitalnoir.com
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "At Tide's = Turning:" terraforming run amok     *   A= simov's SF- 4/01      
_Burning the Ice_:   on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal= & intrigue
            &n= bsp;        A Tor Books hardback 200= 1 *   watch for the webpage!

--MS_Mac_OE_3064664477_130683_MIME_Part-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:49:14 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: list-mistress seeks co-mistresses Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hey everyone on both lists. i love these lists, and i want to keep doing them. but i frankly don't have the time right now to be a decent moderator. feministsf is supposed to be more free-spirited & i only want to get involved if people are being really abusive etc. and feministsf-lit is supposed to be rigorously on topic. but these days i don't have the time to monitor either of these two lists. so i'm looking for volunteer moderators. these are my criteria thus far: * relaxed temperament * yet diligent * identifies as feminist * but understands that feminism is a big tent - non-dogmatic * and feminist in practice as well as ideology - which means what you think it means i guess * able to commit for 6 months * good access to e-mail / internet connection (dial-up or whatever, as long as it's reliable) * reasonably list-savvy * able to keep a cool head under assault * manage the list through seeking consensus & cooperation instead of authoritarian rules & demands * but nonetheless can make hard decisions when necessary * good command of English * probably someone who has been on the list for a while is best -- so you know the ropes and here's the situation: * i'll still be around * i can still handle list subscriptions & stuff if there are problems, or if the moderator goes on vacation or whatever * chris shaffer is my co-list-owner / shadow-owner and he's great. i don't know how much he wants to take on of this but i trust he'll continue to be around in the same capacity he has been. but the moderator should be able to: (1) subscribe people (which currently involves actually asking people what's up & talking to them via email, since the guy i kicked off has threatened to resubscribe under a fake email address) (2) manually subscribe people (3) help people with problems unsubscribe (4) keep an eye on the lists - people sometimes send notes to the list that they wanted to subscribe or where are the archives, that sort of thing, and those need to be handled; - people sometimes forget the basic rules (like no off-topic stuff on feministsf-lit, and no flaming on either of the lists) & need to be gently reminded - people sometimes need help with suggestions about html/text mailers, or whatever (5) help with any other odd list things that might come up (6) feel free to come up with brilliant ideas about the lists, or to work on their archives at feministsf, but not necessary to do so. innovation appreciated but not required, in other words. if more than one person want to do this we can figure out a way to get everyone hooked up together. if you want to do this, send me an email off list & tell me about yourself. if you don't want to do it but have some ideas other than the above feel free to send me an email anyway. peace. Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:09:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Bible Literalists >From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Bible literalists >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >In-Reply-To: <00ad01c0937f$d84f9e00$1884cbcf@vistatech.net> >on 2/10/01 9:38 AM, Gwen Veazey at gveazey@VISTATECH.NET wrote: >I believe the Christian fundamentalists would love for you to think they >take every word in the Bible as being literally true. In my understanding, >they tend to be selective in their literalism. >Absolutely! Forgive my shorthand. It was an oversimplification. I agree. Fundamentalists tend not to take Matthew 26:26 literally, for example. >-l. >-- >Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "At Tide's >Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 >_Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue > A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:24:22 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Diana Lago Subject: Re: About feminism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Chris and everybody > I do not intend to insult you, so please do not be offend. I'm just >trying to give an example of how maybe someone could be both a feminist and >pro-life. Well, of course I don^Òt feel offended at all after reading your post. You have made me realise that I have expressed the issue badly. The point is that you can be pro life, but most of all, all of us ^Öand I would be the first- should be pro person. I mean that no one has the right to force other people to do what they do not want to do. Of course with the limits of no hurting anyone else. Here an example: years ago abortion was totally forbidden in Spain. Spanish women had to fly to London to abort. (And this experience became a trauma for most women). I have a friend whom years ago got pregnancy and did not resources to go ahead. She is a single woman who already has a child. But she was poor; still she is. And she did not have enough money to fly and stay in London meanwhile. Well, she received the support (money) from two friends of her; one of them is a nun. Of course when the nun gave the money to my friend, she said: ^ÑI give you this money, but it^Òs not for the abortion^Ò; which of course was not true, because the most important thing for her was to help a friend. I just feel that if you chose one road, there are plenty of consequences to be understood. It^Òs more a matter of defending what have never been defended so explicitly: women, and the right to control our bodies. On the other hand, I have always thought that the exception for the abortion thing is what makes it cruel. Why is it right when you have been raped or the child comes with serious defects? Why could it be not right when you are not simply able, when you entire life is a mess? Sometimes, and this is a very personal reflection that does not really have to do with this debate, but sometimes I wonder why the people who are against abortion is the same who defend death penalty. Once again I hope the English thing does not make things sound stilted here and there. And of course I also hope I am not offending anyone. Kind regards Nuria _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:17:51 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: [*FSFFU* Pro-life & death penalty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was talking to my Mum about this discussion, and she immediately said the same thing- it's amazing how so many people who say abortion is killing a human baby etc also support the death penalty. Living in Australia, I have never heard anyone defend this position first-hand, but I would find it fascinating to know how conservatives explain why pro-life and pro- capital punishment are not mutually exclusive positions. Can anyone explain to me their logic? Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:02:20 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU* Pro-life & death penalty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/01 7:18:55 AM, MaireShanahan@AOL.COM writes: << I was talking to my Mum about this discussion, and she immediately said the same thing- it's amazing how so many people who say abortion is killing a human baby etc also support the death penalty. >> I've often wondered how fruitful it would be to compare the mailing lists of pro-life groups with those for children's charities... how many overlaps? best, phoebe w -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:03:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: [*FSFFU* Pro-life & death penalty In-Reply-To: <53.23ecfb9.27b92e6f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Maire, and Nuria, I am certainily not an expert, but I would suppose that what makes capital punishment acceptable for those folks who support it is the idea that the person being despatched has presumably committed some horrific offense. Thus they are getting the punishment they deserve - on the lines of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth system of justice. On the other hand pro-life groups invariably go on and on about the unborn being an innocent child who of course has done nothing except be conceived, which of course is not a crime. I too believe that each one of us ought to have the final say in whatever is done to our bodies. We may ask advice of people we trust, but the final decision as to whether to have an operation, or an abortion, or any other form of treatment should rest with the individual who will be subjected to the procedure in question. After all if the woman who chooses to have an abortion understands her decision and feels that she is able to cope with her feelings afterward then it is her right to do what she feels is best for her. Rose >I was talking to my Mum about this discussion, and she immediately said the >same thing- it's amazing how so many people who say abortion is killing a >human baby etc also support the death penalty. Living in Australia, I have >never heard anyone defend this position first-hand, but I would find it >fascinating to know how conservatives explain why pro-life and pro- capital >punishment are not mutually exclusive positions. Can anyone explain to me >their logic? >Maire > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:44:00 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Diana Lago Subject: Kinds of feminism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi there I just wanted to explain more about that distinction between the feminism of the equal and feminism of the difference, just like Pat so gently asked me. I hope this helps a little. In Spain there are two extremely clever women who theorise about the feminism of the equal: Celia Amorós and Amelia Varcárcel. Both have studied Philosophy as a profession. Actually Celia is taking her bases from the Illustration, that period in XVIII century. Illustration asked for the equal, for all the human being. Because women were excluded from this knowledge Celia keeps on defending that issue, because it has not been achieved. (Even those women who fought in French Revolution together with men, as equal partners, once the struggle ended successfully, they were enclosed in prison, alleging mental illness. Just another anecdote). So the feminism of the equal asks for that true ^Ñequal^Ò. The feminism of the difference assumes that we have not got it yet, the equal, free mind and education for everybody. It assumes that men and women are different; they assume the feminine thing, the feminine side of the nature. They assume that we are ^Ñthe other^Ò, in opposition to men, but that feminism does not seem to have the idea of transformation, they are mesmerised by that idea: we are ^Ñthe other^Ò. So yes, we could be different but we are universal, because we are different but we are also innocent because those differences have been learnt socially (feminism of the equal again). They are cultural ^Ñconstructions^Ò, and they do not bring us any benefit. We have to fight politically to achieve that equal, because the political thing will lead us to that equal. Celia Amoros is a very prestigious intellectual, but she has been accused of wasting time studying feminism, and integrating it into Philosophy. She has said that what could it be more important than feminism. Well, of course I was not trying to give a lecture at all! I hope I have made sense. Regards Nuria _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:29:28 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: [*FSFFU* Pro-life & death penalty > I've often wondered how fruitful it would be to compare the mailing lists of > pro-life groups with those for children's charities... how many overlaps? > I've heard it said, and read in various places - I don't know with what justice - that while 'prolife' commands such enormous support in the USA (in terms of political clout, etc), the quality of life of children who have actually been born in the USA compares rather badly with most other developed nations - using various health indicators. I.e. suggesting that while people who take this position are very concerned that children get born wanted or not, there is less pressure to ensure that resources go towards ensuring adequate health-care, nutrition, welfare provisions and so forth for all children who have already been born. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:48:08 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Diana Lago Subject: About education Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Laura and everybody Yes, I do agree with you, definitively: I also prefer sexual egalitarianism to sexual parity. I could not express it better: both sexes should have a wider range of life choices open to them. I don^Òt know id someday that bridge between left and right, in feminist^Òs terms, will ever exist. It is always good to combine ideas. It^Òs the mixture, which could create something good. It is known that to mix human races creates healthier and stronger, and clever people. So it could be the same for ideas; well, I do not really know. As I told you, I^Òm not that optimist. Still there are so many topics in our occidental culture, because of Judeo-Christian tradition. That^Òs why I even unconsciously tend to science fiction literature; to break rules, to find rooms where rules are broken. Well, the first thing I began to find out when I discovered the feminism is the silence of the women: we have never been real. We have always been portrayed through the eyes and judge of men, and this has been a false image. This is very, very subtle and just my point of view, but this is due to the catholic education most of us have been received, an education where women are supposed to be quiet, statues of silence and grace. And Laura your Spanish is fine! A nice surprise. Thanks for reading Regards Nuria _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:10:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: [*FSFFU* Pro-life & death penalty In-Reply-To: <200102121529.PAA18202@dns0.primexplus.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 2/12/01 8:29 AM, Lesley Hall at lesleyah@PRIMEX.CO.UK wrote: >> I've often wondered how fruitful it would be to > compare the mailing lists of >> pro-life groups with those for children's > charities... how many overlaps? >> > > I've heard it said, and read in various places - I > don't know with what justice - that while 'prolife' > commands such enormous support in the USA (in terms of > political clout, etc), the quality of life of children > who have actually been born in the USA compares rather > badly with most other developed nations - using > various health indicators. I.e. suggesting that while > people who take this position are very concerned that > children get born wanted or not, there is less > pressure to ensure that resources go towards ensuring > adequate health-care, nutrition, welfare provisions > and so forth for all children who have already been > born. Unfortunately, Leslie, this is very true. The political right in our country strongly resists funding _any_ social programs. They want to privatize everything. There is an undercurrent in their belief system that the poor have gotten what they deserve because they just don't apply themselves, and why should _their_ hard-earned tax dollars pay to carry a bunch of deadbeats? In our country there are huge numbers of single mothers with young children, trying to make a go of things when child care costs as much as or more than they are able to earn on their own. They have no one to help them and nowhere to turn. I think the statistic I saw somewhere was that when a couple divorces, the man's standard of living rises by 30% (it may have been more -- even substantially more) and the woman's drops by about 41%. Iow, the woman are the ones bearing the burden of raising the children in our society and the men are not. It's a real problem. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ _Proxies_: A Tor Books SF paperback Nov 1999 * ISBN 0-812-52387-3 "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:11:31 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: About education In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit on 2/12/01 8:48 AM, Diana Lago at dianalago@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > That^Òs why I even unconsciously tend to science fiction literature; to break > rules, to find rooms where rules are broken. Same here! > Well, the first thing I began to find out when I discovered the feminism is > the silence of the women: we have never been real. We have always been > portrayed through the eyes and judge of men, and this has been a false > image. This is very, very subtle and just my point of view, but this is due > to the catholic education most of us have been received, an education where > women are supposed to be quiet, statues of silence and grace. Very well put. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ _Proxies_: A Tor Books SF paperback Nov 1999 * ISBN 0-812-52387-3 "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:21:59 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Difference & Equality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The problem with both positions is that: There is a biological difference. Women can bear and nurse children. But people have taken that difference and inferred other differences which may or may not be true. The best example is the statement that women are by nature nurturing, and that those who aren't are somehow abnormal. The truth is a little more complicated: About 2/3 of all Feeling types are women. This ties in well with the fact that women are usually the primary nurturers of children. But 1/3 of all women are Thinking types. That's a very large number to be labeled "abnormal", or worse yet, "unwomanly." As a person with a mind, I like the equality model. As someone who has been pregnant twice, delivered a child twice, and breast-fed children twice, I would like to see those necessities of life acknowledged - but without being told my place is to do so forever. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:27:54 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Kinds of feminism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/01 9:44:58 AM, dianalago@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << (Even those women who fought in French Revolution together with men, as equal partners, once the struggle ended successfully, they were enclosed in prison, alleging mental illness. Just another anecdote). >> That happened with the American Revolution as well, although the women were not imprisoned, just excluded. best, phoebe w -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:11:50 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Difference & Equality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As a person with a mind, I like the equality model. > > As someone who has been pregnant twice, delivered a child twice, and > breast-fed children twice, I would like to see those necessities of life > acknowledged - but without being told my place is to do so forever. As one of those female thinking types, I agree wholeheartedly...I'd take your second statement even further, though....I would like to see those necessities of life acknowledged when necessary - but without being told that my body dictates my place. Choosing NOT to bear children is an increasingly-valid choice (or should be!), given the overpopulation of this planet! -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:11:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Feminism's "place" Hi, I am new to a the list, so I would to introduce myself a bit and comment on some of things others have said. I grew up in a very sexist household in a very sexist town. The triggering incident of my becoming a feminist was this: when I was tiny my father importantly told me that women and girls are jealous of men because men can pee standing up. My mother immediately howled with derisive laughter at that statement, thus freeing me from being frightened into such stupidity. When we moved a few years later, on my first day of school in the new school the boys were removed from class to learn science the girls were taught art and no science. Similarly in seventh grade, the first day the boys were taken off to learn about magnets while the girls--I don't even remember what we did. All I could think of was I was being denied science education again! But science fiction kept my interest in science. Nuria said, (Celia Amoros is a very prestigious intellectual, but she has been accused of wasting time studying feminism, and integrating it into Philosophy. Sigh. Women ask and explore different issues than men do. My father was a theater historian and so I learned very early that Shakespeare's actors were all men and boys but on European stages of the same time, women performed. When I asked him why he dismissed it as an unimportant question. When I grew there still was no answer. So I found the answer (http://pages.prodigy.net/cynthea/bard.html) Similarly when I was researching about villanelles, I found an entire book on the subject. But the author did not state and did not know (I emailed him) how villanelles first got into England. Well, my mother had an idea, and she was right! Mary Queen of Scots had brought them from France. These are just the kinds of differences that I think show up in feminist scifi too. It also seems to me, that as feminist ideas become accepted stories written by men become better too. For instance, I think Orson Card's fiction shows interesting changes from unbelievable women characters to more belieable. Oh, Nuria, just a gentle reminder, while it is true in Spain all everybody is brought up Catholic, this is not true in the USA which is most Protestant but has a huge minority of many other religions (including Paganism). And of course in places like India no form of Christianity is the dominant religion. Many American women are becoming Pagans since Paganism is more reflective of what I consider feminist values, and this reflects in their fiction. For instance, Thomas the Rhymer (sorry can't think of the author's name, Kushner?) is very very pagan in its messages. The Fairy Queen is not protrayed as evil but her actions are still very much those of the ballad on which the novel is based. It's a great book any body here read it? Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:44:08 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Anne GASPARD Subject: Re: Kinds of feminism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > << (Even those women who fought in French Revolution together with men, as > equal partners, once the struggle ended successfully, they were enclosed in > prison, alleging mental illness. Just another anecdote). >> In fact, the most famous feminist of this time, Olympe de Gouges, author of the Declaration of the Rights of Woman and of the Citizen, died at the guillotine. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:54:03 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Kinds of feminism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 2/12/2001 9:44:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, dianalago@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << The feminism of the difference assumes that we have not got it yet, the equal, free mind and education for everybody. It assumes that men and women are different; they assume the feminine thing, the feminine side of the nature. They assume that we are â^À^Øthe otherâ^À^Ù, in opposition to men, but that feminism does not seem to have the idea of transformation, they are mesmerised by that idea: we are â^À^Øthe otherâ^À^Ù. >> I think like those theories Nuria. What I like is that you explained what the "other" as opposed to Beuvoir whose book The Second Sex kept mentioning the idea but never clearly defined what she might by it. <<<<<(Even those women who fought in French Revolution together with men, as equal partners, once the struggle ended successfully, they were enclosed in prison, alleging mental illness. Just another anecdote). So the feminism of the equal asks for that true â^À^Øequalâ^À^Ù.>>>> Never could get over the French Revolution post attitude to women. It seemed so hypocritical esp. when the common symbol is the bare breast woman with the flag. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:00:43 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Thomas the Rymer {was Feminism's place} MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/2001 12:33:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, cynthea@PRODIGY.NET writes: << For instance, Thomas the Rhymer (sorry can't think of the author's name, Kushner?) >> Yep. Ellen Kushner. Who also wrote Swordspoint (whose main character is a bixsexul and who, in the action of the novel, is engaged in a homosexual realtionship) and has short fiction published particulary every year in Year's Best Fanasty and Horror. She has hosts NPR's Sound and Spirit which deals with music and literture. Its takes a theme, such as WWI or the Kavala and discusses music related to it. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:31:31 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Difference & Equality In-Reply-To: <200102130601.AAA18964@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Pat > > The problem with both positions is that: > There is a biological difference. Women can bear and nurse children. > But people have taken that difference and inferred other > differences which may or may not be true. The best example is the > statement that women are by nature nurturing, and that those who > aren't are somehow abnormal. The truth is a little more complicated: > About 2/3 of all Feeling types are women. This ties in well > with the fact that women are usually the primary nurturers of children. > > But 1/3 of all women are Thinking types. That's a very large > number to be labeled "abnormal", or worse yet, "unwomanly." Honestly, the difference between 1/2 and 2/3s isn't that much. With 1/3 of men (like me) being feeling types, and 1/3 of women being thinking types, the differences really aren't terribly large. As another useful statistic: At least in other primates, the whole "nurturing instinct" has been proven to be nonexistant. Female primates who have not observed other female primates (usually mothers or aunts) raise young have no clue how to do so and their young normally die. In fact, these female primates normally don't even pay that much attention to their young. If we are at all like other primates, most women are taught to be feeling and nurturing. As First World birthrates continue to decline (to my great joy, almost every First World nation is below replacement levels in population, some are *far* below replacement (~1.3-1.5, where 2.05 is replacement level) and having children becomes rarer the whole pattern should change even more. I'm curious to see what things will be like in 50 years or so. > As a person with a mind, I like the equality model. Agreed, I honestly think the whole difference model is one designed to make the problems worse rather than better. > As someone who has been pregnant twice, delivered a child twice, and > breast-fed children twice, I would like to see those necessities of > life acknowledged - but without being told my place is to do so > forever. Well, other than bearing children (which may well have technological alternatives in a couple of decades) everything else can be done by members of either gender. As I see it, the goal is to get to a point where folks who want to have children can choose who who stays home and does childcare w/o regard for gender or other factors or who splits the duties equally. In such a situation, the only question that really remain about this issue are maternity leave and high quality medical care. Blessings- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:41:55 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Diana Lago Subject: Re: Feminism's "place" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi >Oh, Nuria, just a gentle reminder, while it is true in Spain all everybody >is brought up Catholic, this is not true in the USA which is most >Protestant >but has a huge minority of many other religions (including Paganism). And >of >course in places like India no form of Christianity is the dominant >religion. Oh, yes, of course, I^Òm sorry. It^Òs the English thing that sometimes betrays me. I was referring first to occidental society. I have been brought up in an occidental society, and that is what I know the most. On the other hand I was mostly referring to Christian religion, generally speaking. I^Òm not a theological person, obviously, and I just can remember that when I studied religion at school, we^Òve been told that the causes for the division in Christian religion were basically economic. But the silence of women is a constant everywhere anyway. It^Òs a constant even in poets you did never suspect or expect (Pablo Neruda, for instance). And I^Òm also thinking now of that thing Pat mentioned: women are by nature nurturing. I think you are talking about ^Ñmaternal instinct^Ò, if I am not wrong. I do agree with John. I have read about that idea, the maternal instinct, which basically does not exit, since the moment that effectively those women who do not have it are abnormal. This instinct was mostly created in XIX century, in the Victorian period; it was a very subtle excuse to keep middle and upper class women in the domestic, at home, enclosed. And the Victorian period has to do with Catholics and Protestants. At the end what you have the same basement with different shades, but the same basement anyway. Yes, you are right, Cynthia, many people are becoming pagans since paganism is more reflective of what they consider feminist values. I sympathise with your causes, the reasons why you became a feminist. Regards _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:46:53 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Diana Lago Subject: Re: Kinds of feminism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > Hi >In fact, the most famous feminist of this time, Olympe de Gouges, author of >the Declaration of the Rights of Woman and of the Citizen, died at the >guillotine. > Oh, yes. Thank you very much, Anne, I could not remember that woman, but now I can. You're absolutely right. Regards Nuria _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:40:39 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rowena Subject: Invitation to a genderfree list (was: Difference & Equality) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 12 Feb 2001, at 9:21, Pat wrote: > As a person with a mind, I like the equality model. Hello everybody, In Holland, where I am from, practically all feminism is from some kind of 'equality brand' and I remember feeling very uncomfortable when I learned of more difference orientated branches. (I followed a course on Irigaray in University) I don't see myself as a very feminine type and it gave me the impression that this was an other way of setting 'female standards' I didn't want to live up to. But I noticed that I am nevertheless very attached to calling myself female when on an other list I am on someone sugested that we should abolish gender, at least on-line. In the discussion that spun from this remark I felt more and more the danger that what might be a so-called 'neutral' or 'gender-free' identity might be the same as the current male identity. (I realise this phrasing is a bit dramatic, I just want to say that what a traditional point of diference feminists is felt somehow more real for me.) Under the motto 'learning by doing' we decided to start an other list on which everyone presents temselves as gender free, to see if this would hinder (or aid) communication an whether it would be automatically clear what peoples 'real gender is'. I was wondering if anyone on this list would be interested in participating in this experiment. (I would like that) At the moment of writing this I don't have subscription details but it should start today or tomorrow. If you want to read the discussion on the other list (Cybermind) you can find it at: http://www.geocities.com/jpmarshall.geo/cybermind/gender/index.html greetings, Rowena -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:26:13 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Diana Lago Subject: Re: Kinds of feminism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi >I think like those theories Nuria. What I like is that you explained what >the "other" as opposed to Beuvoir whose book The Second Sex kept mentioning >the idea but never clearly defined what she might by it. Oh, Chris, thank you very much. I had not realised it. Regards Nuria _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:46:24 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Diana Lago Subject: Re: Invitation to a genderfree list (was: Difference & Equality) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi >I was wondering if anyone on this list would be interested in participating >in this experiment. (I would like that) It seems very interesting. >At the moment of writing this I don't have subscription details but it >should start today or tomorrow. If you want to read the discussion on the other list (Cybermind) you can >find it at: > >http://www.geocities.com/jpmarshall.geo/cybermind/gender/index.html I have been not able to check the letters deeply, or even briefly. I just wondering if you could help us: what is the list about? Can we discuss about eveything, or only about gender stuff? It will be a way to finally reveal the gender of everyone? I'm sorry if I'm asking obvious things, but I just feel very curious. Kind regards Nuria _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:11:03 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Early signs of puberty evident Early signs of puberty evident WASHINGTON (AP) - Parents come to Dr. Gilbert August mystified: Their little girls, around age 8 and sometimes younger, already are showing unmistakable signs of puberty. "They say, 'My God, she's too young, do something,'" August says. Endocrinologists say they're seeing more girls with precocious sexual development, and some medical studies suggest the baffling trend is real, that the beginning signs of puberty are showing up earlier in today's girls than their mothers. How early? At age 8, almost half of black girls and 15% of white girls start developing breasts or pubic hair. At 9, those numbers reach 77% of black girls and a third of whites. More striking, 27% of black girls and 7% of whites develop these early puberty signs at age 7 - the second grade - according to a landmark puberty study. Until recently, doctors and parents didn't expect to see budding breasts until around age 10. Nobody knows what's causing the shift. Fat is the leading theory, because childhood obesity has doubled in the last 20 years and body fat certainly can spur hormones. Some scientists are hunting environmental culprits, and point to a small study from Puerto Rico - where early breast development is such a problem that it can begin at the stunning age of 2 - that casts suspicion on certain chemicals in cosmetics and plastics. Nor can anyone explain the racial differences, or whether puberty is shifting for boys, who just now are being studied. ---------------- Well, call me Lulu Ludite, but it seems something is drastically wrong on ol' Mother Earth when puberty is beginning at age 7 and earlier. Joyce -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:17:37 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rowena Subject: Re: Invitation to a genderfree list (was: Difference & Equality) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 14 Feb 2001, at 8:46, Diana Lago wrote: > Hi > > >I was wondering if anyone on this list would be interested in participating > >in this experiment. (I would like that) > > It seems very interesting. > the groups is called 'genderfree' all you need an anonymous and genderless email addy, (it is hosted by yahoo but I believe you can just subscribe by 1 email - if not you have to register with yahoogroups) We have a moderator who is supposed to know your real (gender) identity, so you should also sent him an email telling him your name and the alias you used to subscribe. (His name is Tom Ellis - it is best to tell him you are from the feminst sf list ) Post message: genderfree@yahoogroups.com Subscribe: genderfree-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: genderfree-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: genderfree-owner@yahoogroups.com URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/genderfree > > I have been not able to check the letters deeply, or even briefly. I just > wondering if you could help us: what is the list about? Can we discuss about > eveything, or only about gender stuff? It will be a way to finally reveal > the gender of everyone? I'm sorry if I'm asking obvious things, but I just > feel very curious. The Cybermind list is officially called 'philosophy and pshychology of cyberspace' but it is not very strictly 'on-topic'. This new list is supposed to be completely open, so discussion of gender and of any other topic is allowed. The only thing you are not supposed to do is reveal your gender (so this excludes talk about some personal stuff - but otherwise that is fine as well). It is allowed to 'out' other people if you think you know their gender, as long as it doesn't become the main topic. There are not yet strict plans of how and when we reveal 'true genders' -the idea is to try it for a month and evaluate. Just to make sure that people in the end don't want to admit their real gender the moderator knows all the usual identities of the participants. I hope I am clear enough? See you there (?) Rowena -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:03:39 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Early signs of puberty evident MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" As a man who began the special wonderful endocrinological shift away from childhood beginning about age 8 (which occurred about three decades ago), I suspect decent food and healthcare may have as much to do with it as environmental pollution. But one can wonder. TM -----Original Message----- From: Joyce Jones [mailto:hoop5@LVCM.COM] Early signs of puberty evident WASHINGTON (AP) - Parents come to Dr. Gilbert August mystified: Their little girls, around age 8 and sometimes younger, already are showing unmistakable signs of puberty. ... Nor can anyone explain the racial differences, or whether puberty is shifting for boys, who just now are being studied. ---------------- Well, call me Lulu Ludite, but it seems something is drastically wrong on ol' Mother Earth when puberty is beginning at age 7 and earlier. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.