From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 15:29:54 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:28:07 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0102C" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:01:24 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Diana Lago Subject: Re: Invitation to a genderfree list (was: Difference & Equality) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Thank you very much for your perfect explanation, Rowena. Now everything is clear. Thank you. Kind regards Nuria _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:30:31 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Philadelphia Fantastic--Samuel R. Delany February 23rd Comments: To: "fictionmags@yahoogroups.com" , "sciencefiction-l@listserv.indiana.edu" , "ttalkback@yahoogroups.com" , "jetta195@aol.com" , Virginia Ely , Fred K Ollinger Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list , "camille@voicenet.com" , TIMEBINDERS@SFLOVERS.RUTGERS.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Camille Bacon-Smith [mailto:camille@VOICENET.COM] Join the Philadelphia Fantastic authors, editors, and fans at BORDERS BOOKS, 1727 Walnut Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania now in its fourth year of readings in science fiction, fantasy, and horror. Innovative science fiction writer and gay culture activist Samuel R. Delany will read and discuss his work on Friday, February 23, 2001 @7:30 pm. Samuel R. Delany made his reputation in the heady days of New Wave science fiction. He continues to lead the field with the issues he confronts in his fiction and critical non-fiction works. Race, gender, the confluence of city politics and sexual politics, and the politics of writing have all felt the master's keenly incisive mind. Join us to welcome Mr. Delany to the Philadelphia reading and writing community. Philadelphia Fantastic presents a series of readings and informal discussions by and with local writers of speculative fiction on the fourth Friday of the month. Our location is BORDERS BOOKS, 1727 Walnut Street, and the time is 7:30 pm. So grab a latte and join Samuel R. Delany at Borders. The readings are free: post-reading snack-hunt is pay as you go. Philadelphia Fantastic For further information about the Philadelphia Fantastic reading series, contact Camille Bacon-Smith: camille@voicenet.com and check out our website at http://www.voicenet.com/~camille/phillysf.html for news of upcoming events. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:08:38 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Philadelphia Fantastic--Samuel R. Delany February 23rd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/15/2001 9:31:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM writes: << Join the Philadelphia Fantastic authors, editors, and fans at BORDERS BOOKS, 1727 Walnut Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania now in its fourth year of readings in science fiction, fantasy, and horror. Innovative science fiction writer and gay culture activist Samuel R. Delany will read and discuss his work on Friday, February 23, 2001 @7:30 pm. >> Thanks Todd. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:58:51 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Wiscon Call for Papers (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:36:28 EST From: Joesanders@aol.com Reply-To: iafa-l@wiz.cath.vt.edu To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Wiscon Call for Papers Promised Justine Larbalestier I'd circulate this: Call for Papers: WisCon 25 the conference of feminist science fiction Memorial Day weekend, May 25-28 2001, at the Concourse Hotel in downtown Madison, Wisconsin We invite papers and presentations on any topic within feminism, science fiction, fantasy or horror (both literature and media). We especially welcome papers on the work of this year's guests of honour, Nancy Kress and Elisbeth Vonarburg; and special guest Carol Emshwiller. Papers at WisCon cover a wide range of topics and ask many different kinds of questions: histories of feminist science fiction Whiter than white? If the future is going to be white middle class and American can you kill me now? approaches to particular authors such as Karen Joy Fowler, Naolo Hopkinson, Ursula Le Guin, Maureen McHugh, C. L. Moore, Kim Stanley Robinson, James Tiptree, Jr. and many others are warrior women really the answer? histories and stories and adventures of feminist fandom representations of men in horror films the class systems of the Star Trek universe the James Tiptree, Jr. Memorial Award gender bending in science fiction comics U.S. Politics: Fantasy, Horror, or Science Fiction? Send proposals via e-mail to: Justine Larbalestier jazza@english.usyd.edu.au Deadline: April 10, 2001 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:23:43 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: shrot excerpt from Darkover to demosntrate how times change (hopefeully) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am reading Darkover by Marion Zimmer Bradley. It is completely sexist, patronising to women etc. But I just came across one particularly horrific passage: (A spaceship bound for a terraformed planet, containing colonists and equipment, crash lands on a planet 'Darkover'. The planet is habitable, but periodically, a pollen is dispersed on the Winds which causes complete abandon, madness, lust, group sex amongst the crew, murder etc. A side effect of the landing on the new planet has apparently been the failure of contraceptive shots given to women- after the abandon of the Winds, many are pregnant. First Officer Camilla Del Rey, having just discovered herself to be pregnant, goes to the Hospital to request an abortion. She is told no, on the grounds that a high birthrate is necessary to create a viable colony. She is, understandably horrified, but is told that her horror to the idea of forced childbearing is a biological reaction brought about by living in the overpopulated conditions of earth.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------- "Camilla," Ewen said very gently, "this is biological. Even back in the twentieth century , they did experiments on rats and ghetto population and things, and found that one of the first results of crucial social overcrowding was the failure of maternal behaviour. It's a pathology. Ma is a rationalising animal, so sociologists called it "Women's Liberation" and things like that, but what it amounted to was a pathological reaction to overpopulation and overcrowding. Women who couldn't be allowed to have children had to be given other work for the sake of their mental health. But it wears off. Women sign an agreement when they go to the colonies, to have a minimum of two children, but most of them, once they're out of the crowding of earth, recover their mental and emotional health, and the average colony family is four children- which is about right, psychologically speaking. By the time the baby comes, you'll probably have normal hormones too, and make a good mother. If not, well it'll at least have your genes, and we'll give it to some sterile woman to bring up for you. Trust me, Camilla." "Are you trying to tell me that I've got to have this baby?" "I sure am," Ewen said, and suddenly his voice went hard, "and others too, providing you can carry them to term. There's a one in two chance you'll have a miscarriage.... I have a feeling that any woman who refuses to have as many children as she can physically manage, is going to be awfully damned unpopular. Public Enemy Number One just isn't in it. Ewen's voice was hard, but with the heightened sensitivity he had known ever since the first Wind blasted him wide open to the emotions of others, he had realised the hideous pictures that were spinning in Camilla's mind: ...not a person, just s thing, a walking womb, a thing used for breeding, my mind gone, my skills useless, just s brood mare.... "It won't be that bad," he said, in deep sympathy. "There will be plenty for you to do. But that's the way it's got to be, Camilla. I'm sure it's worse for you than it is for some others, but it's the same for everyone. Our survival depends on it. ' He looked away from her, he could not face the blast of her agony. She said, her lips tightening to a hard line, "Maybe it would be better not to survive, under conditions like that." 'I won't discuss that with you until you're feeling better," Ewen said quietly, "it's not worth the breath. I'll set up a prenatal examination for you with Margaret-" "-I won't!' Ewen got quickly to his feet. He signalled a nurse behind her back and gripped her wrist in a hard grip, immobilising her. A needle went into her arm; she looked at him with angry suspicion, her eyes already glazing slightly. 'What- ' 'A harmless sedative. Supplies are short, but we can spare enough to keep you calmed down, ' Ewen said calmly. "Who's the father, Camilla? MacAran?" "None of your affair!" she spat at him. "Agreed, but I ought to know, for genetic records. Captain Leicester?" 'MacAran" she aid with a surge of dull anger, and suddenly, with a deep gnawing pain, she remembered.... how happy they had been during the winds ... Ewen looked down at her senseless form with deep regret. 'Get hold of Rafael MacAran," he said, 'have him with her when she comes out of it. Maybe he can talks some sense into her. ' 'How can she e so senseless? " the nurse said in horror. 'She was brought up on a space satellite, ' Ewen said, 'and in the Alpha colony. She joined the space service at fifteen and all her life she's been brainwashed into thinking childbearing was something she shouldn't be interested in. She'll learn. It's only a matter of time. ' But secretly he wondered how many women of the crew felt the same- sterility could be psychologically determined too- and how long it would take to overcome this conditioned fear and aversion. Could it even be done, in time to bring them up to a viable number, on this harsh, brutal and inhospitable world?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------- I thought the bit with the nurse was particularly horrific. Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:11:10 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: shrot excerpt from Darkover to demosntrate how times change (hopefeully) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Maire, I'm a little confused at your intention here. Are you pointing out that the behaviour of the characters in the book is sexist, or arguing that the book itself is sexist (i.e. approves of the characters in question's behaviour)? Whichever, for a very different (and very funny) critique of the Must Breed to Populate Planet scenario, take a look at Joanna Russ's _We Who Are About To_. Kate >From: Maire Shanahan >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: [*FSFFU*] shrot excerpt from Darkover to demosntrate how times > change (hopefeully) >Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:23:43 EST > >I am reading Darkover by Marion Zimmer Bradley. It is completely sexist, >patronising to women etc. But I just came across one particularly horrific >passage: >(A spaceship bound for a terraformed planet, containing colonists and >equipment, crash lands on a planet 'Darkover'. The planet is habitable, but >periodically, a pollen is dispersed on the Winds which causes complete >abandon, madness, lust, group sex amongst the crew, murder etc. A side >effect >of the landing on the new planet has apparently been the failure of >contraceptive shots given to women- after the abandon of the Winds, many >are >pregnant. First Officer Camilla Del Rey, having just discovered herself to >be >pregnant, goes to the Hospital to request an abortion. She is told no, on >the >grounds that a high birthrate is necessary to create a viable colony. She >is, >understandably horrified, but is told that her horror to the idea of forced >childbearing is a biological reaction brought about by living in the >overpopulated conditions of earth.) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------- >"Camilla," Ewen said very gently, "this is biological. Even back in the >twentieth century , they did experiments on rats and ghetto population and >things, and found that one of the first results of crucial social >overcrowding was the failure of maternal behaviour. It's a pathology. Ma is >a >rationalising animal, so sociologists called it "Women's Liberation" and >things like that, but what it amounted to was a pathological reaction to >overpopulation and overcrowding. Women who couldn't be allowed to have >children had to be given other work for the sake of their mental health. >But >it wears off. Women sign an agreement when they go to the colonies, to have >a >minimum of two children, but most of them, once they're out of the crowding >of earth, recover their mental and emotional health, and the average colony >family is four children- which is about right, psychologically speaking. By >the time the baby comes, you'll probably have normal hormones too, and make >a >good mother. If not, well it'll at least have your genes, and we'll give it >to some sterile woman to bring up for you. Trust me, Camilla." >"Are you trying to tell me that I've got to have this baby?" >"I sure am," Ewen said, and suddenly his voice went hard, "and others too, >providing you can carry them to term. There's a one in two chance you'll >have >a miscarriage.... I have a feeling that any woman who refuses to have as >many children as she can physically manage, is going to be awfully damned >unpopular. Public Enemy Number One just isn't in it. >Ewen's voice was hard, but with the heightened sensitivity he had known >ever >since the first Wind blasted him wide open to the emotions of others, he >had >realised the hideous pictures that were spinning in Camilla's mind: >...not a person, just s thing, a walking womb, a thing used for breeding, >my >mind gone, my skills useless, just s brood mare.... > >"It won't be that bad," he said, in deep sympathy. "There will be plenty >for >you to do. But that's the way it's got to be, Camilla. I'm sure it's worse >for you than it is for some others, but it's the same for everyone. Our >survival depends on it. >' He looked away from her, he could not face the blast of her agony. >She said, her lips tightening to a hard line, "Maybe it would be better not >to survive, under conditions like that." > >'I won't discuss that with you until you're feeling better," Ewen said >quietly, "it's not worth the breath. I'll set up a prenatal examination for >you with Margaret-" >"-I won't!' >Ewen got quickly to his feet. He signalled a nurse behind her back and >gripped her wrist in a hard grip, immobilising her. A needle went into her >arm; she looked at him with angry suspicion, her eyes already glazing >slightly. > >'What- > >' > >'A harmless sedative. Supplies are short, but we can spare enough to keep >you >calmed down, > > >' Ewen said calmly. "Who's the father, Camilla? MacAran?" >"None of your affair!" she spat at him. >"Agreed, but I ought to know, for genetic records. Captain Leicester?" > >'MacAran" she aid with a surge of dull anger, and suddenly, with a deep >gnawing pain, she remembered.... how happy they had been during the winds >... >Ewen looked down at her senseless form with deep regret. > >'Get hold of Rafael MacAran," he said, 'have him with her when she comes >out >of it. Maybe he can talks some sense into her. >' > >'How can she e so senseless? >" the nurse said in horror. > >'She was brought up on a space satellite, >' Ewen said, >'and in the Alpha colony. She joined the space service at fifteen and all >her >life she's been brainwashed into thinking childbearing was something she >shouldn't be interested in. She'll learn. It's only a matter of time. >' >But secretly he wondered how many women of the crew felt the same- >sterility >could be psychologically determined too- and how long it would take to >overcome this conditioned fear and aversion. >Could it even be done, in time to bring them up to a viable number, on >this >harsh, brutal and inhospitable world?" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >---------------------------------- >I thought the bit with the nurse was particularly horrific. >Maire > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:28:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: shrot excerpt from Darkover to demosntrate how times change (hopefeully) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:23 PM 2/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >I am reading Darkover by Marion Zimmer Bradley. It is completely sexist, >patronising to women etc. But I just came across one particularly horrific >passage: > >I thought the bit with the nurse was particularly horrific. >Maire I've only read two MZB books, Darkover Landfall, which you quoted above, and The Mists of Avalon. I had problems with scenes like the one above that were in both books. I don't know if it's a common theme in MZB books for women to be forced to have babies they don't want to benefit the overall society, but I found it weird that both of her books that I read centered around unwanted babies. In a way, I can understand a pressure to keep the population stable on worlds like Darkover and McCaffrey's Pern, but at least the planned colonists for Pern knew that they would be expected to have babies before they ever left. I don't know if there would have been enough women choosing to have babies on Darkover without forced child-bearing to keep the gene pool stable, but to force women to have unwanted babies is just so harsh! I'm still questioning whether MZB was writing these scenes to make us angry about the situation so we would question it and maybe prevent things like this in the real world, or was she siding with the anti-feminist characters? Or was she just bringing up the situation to make us think about it and come to our own conclusions? I'll save a judgement until after I read more of her books. Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:20:08 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: shrot excerpt from Darkover to demosntrate how times change (hopefeully) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This was a matter of intense debate when it came out, and later. From a Doyleist standpoint, MZB herself had been frustrated in her desire for a child for a long time. From a Watsonian standpoint, the needs of survival in a new colony had to be held (by the colony's leaders) to override the rights of any individuals at all. Right or wrong, it wasn't just put out there casually. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:35:42 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: shrot excerpt from Darkover to demosntrate howtimes change(hopefeully) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Jennifer R. J." wrote: > > At 06:23 PM 2/18/01 -0500, you wrote: > >I am reading Darkover by Marion Zimmer Bradley. It is completely sexist, > >patronising to women etc. But I just came across one particularly horrific > >passage: > > > >I thought the bit with the nurse was particularly horrific. > >Maire > > I've only read two MZB books, Darkover Landfall, which you quoted > above, and The Mists of Avalon. I had problems with scenes like the one > above that were in both books. I don't know if it's a common theme in MZB > books for women to be forced to have babies they don't want to benefit the > overall society, but I found it weird that both of her books that I read > centered around unwanted babies. In a way, I can understand a pressure to > keep the population stable on worlds like Darkover and McCaffrey's Pern, > but at least the planned colonists for Pern knew that they would be > expected to have babies before they ever left. I don't know if there would > have been enough women choosing to have babies on Darkover without forced > child-bearing to keep the gene pool stable, but to force women to have > unwanted babies is just so harsh! The rationale here was exactly that, that the gene pool for the castaways was in fact too small, and that the loss of even one set of potential genes was therefore intolerable. > I'm still questioning whether MZB was writing these scenes to make us > angry about the situation so we would question it and maybe prevent things > like this in the real world, or was she siding with the anti-feminist > characters? Or was she just bringing up the situation to make us think > about it and come to our own conclusions? I'll save a judgement until > after I read more of her books. > Jennifer You sure as hell can't start by assuming that the attitudes of the characters, particularly those in power, are those of the author (an old and deadly trap). Marion was very capable of putting plausible lies into the mouths of superficially sympathetic characters; and as the Darkover series evolved it became increasingly clear that the Terran civilization of which these characters are the fruit was profoundly sexist. The question of MZB and feminism is a complicated one. She is regarded by many as an examplar of feminist SF, particular for the Thendara-House Darkover novels; I ran across a website once which referred to "Marion Zimmer Bradley whack-you-over-the-head gender-nature feminism". I recommend starting with the article in Science Fiction Studies #20, p. 28-35: Linda Leith, "Marion Zimmer Bradley and Darkover." Most of the writing on this topic (including some of the best), as on so many SF topics, has actually been done in the fanzines, which are poorly indexed, if at all, and very hard to get hold of. The furor over DARKOVER LANDFALL started as soon as it was published, and will continue now forever. -- Michael J. Lowrey Cultures and Communities Program Curtin Hall 284 University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee P.O. Box 413 Milwaukee, WI 53201-0413 414.229.5960 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:00:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Helen Thompson Subject: Re: shrot excerpt from Darkover to demosntrate howtimes change(hopefeully) In-Reply-To: <3A912F3E.EB510BDF@uwm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >You sure as hell can't start by assuming that the attitudes of the >characters, particularly those in power, are those of the author (an old >and deadly trap). For instance, you wouldn't assume that because Margaret Atwood wrote _The Handmaid's Tale_ that she actually believed that we ought to live that way. One of the joys of speculative fiction -- indeed, any fiction -- is being able to provoke outrage at a moral wrong by portraying what would happen if it became morally right. Substitute any adjective for moral and it's the same truth. Just a modest proposal, Helen -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:25:18 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: shrot excerpt from Darkover to demosntrate how times change (hopefeully) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, Maire Shanahan wrote: > 'How can she e so senseless? > " the nurse said in horror. > > ---------------------------------- > I thought the bit with the nurse was particularly horrific. > Maire > You have to realize that women are of different types and backgrounds. If the nurse was from a culture where large families were a Good Thing - AND - was a born nester, as many women and men are even now - (think Radar O'Reilly on MASH), her reaction is understandable. It's not mine or yours, but it is, legitimately, hers. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:31:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: assuming about authors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >>You sure as hell can't start by assuming that the attitudes of the >>characters, particularly those in power, are those of the author (an old >>and deadly trap). >For instance, you wouldn't assume that because Margaret Atwood wrote _The >Handmaid's Tale_ that she actually believed that we ought to live that way. I was not saying that everything an author writes is something they believe in. I'm sure some authors do that, but most of the books I've read in the past few years have complicated societies in them that make us look at our own. I have almost no experience with MZB, as I said, so I didn't know much about her basic themes, how skilled she was at portraying realistic societies, or even where she was coming from in the two books I have read. I have heard many people call her feminist, but just as many people think she's one of the most non-feminist or even anti-feminist women SF writers. I was just asking for some input so I could try to figure out how her books made me feel. Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:08:05 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: assuming about authors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Jennifer R. J." wrote: > > >>You sure as hell can't start by assuming that the attitudes of the > >>characters, particularly those in power, are those of the author (an old > >>and deadly trap). > > >For instance, you wouldn't assume that because Margaret Atwood wrote _The > >Handmaid's Tale_ that she actually believed that we ought to live that way. > > I was not saying that everything an author writes is something they > believe in. I'm sure some authors do that, but most of the books I've read > in the past few years have complicated societies in them that make us look > at our own. I have almost no experience with MZB, as I said, so I didn't > know much about her basic themes, how skilled she was at portraying > realistic societies, or even where she was coming from in the two books I > have read. I have heard many people call her feminist, but just as many > people think she's one of the most non-feminist or even anti-feminist women > SF writers. Most of those who call MZB an ANTI-feminist come from one of two camps: the ultra-purist, sectarian sorts to whom no deviation from The Truth as they perceive it can be tolerated; and those who attribute to her whatever evil things her characters may be saying. She was of an older generation, and never was real interested in changing herself to fit somebody else's concept of a "real" feminist, so she did often anger various purists and theorists. She mostly considered the term to apply to activists, and was shy of having it attached to her or of being pressured to live up to a title she did not claim. I guess I'd probably consider myself a more rigorous feminist than she was, but I'd never see any reason to try to expel her from my N.O.W. chapter or the like. -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey Curtin Hall 284 University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee P.O. Box 413 Milwaukee, WI 53201-0413 414.229.5960 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:04:53 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: shrot excerpt from Darkover to demosntrate how times change ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit by the way, that should read "How can she be so selfish?" the nurse said in horror. (Comes of not watching the spellchecker carefully, I'd say) I don't think what's going on in this book is MB using her characters to prove outrage etc, and there is no comparison with the Handmaid's Tale. The book, is just exactly like all the others of the times, except that MZB is using it to basically discredit Women's Liberation. It seem s you need to read the whole book to be aware of that. It's written from the point of view of an extremely kindly, sympathetic and all round nice guy. Examples include him organising a surveying expedition into he mountains and asking for all men, as it as to be a rough trip. On finding 2 women have been included, he protests, is then recited Article a4 (no person shall be prevented form work on the basis of race, gender, religion) - Article 4 being made to seem pretty silly int eh situation; has thoughts ala 'how silly he had been to look forward to the trip, he should have known something would have happened like these women being included, now he would have to slow the pace, worry about hem etc'; (It becomes clear later that the women are in fact along to provide his love interest, and partners in the Winds) Anyway, I can go on. I have read Thendara House etc, and the politics of this book are poles apart. I think his is just another demonstration of how MZB's politics changed. At first she was fairly unenthusiastic of feminism, distanced herself from it, and in this book, basically ridicules it. Obviously later on things changed somewhat, I don't think this makes her later, more feminist work any less valid, in fact I just think it is great that people can change so much. IN her case, it may also have been a case of the times changing of course. I put the excerpt in, without saying too much myself, because I was very interested in what people would say, by the way. Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:22:28 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: shrot excerpt from Darkover to demosntrate how times change ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's not really the part about having to put the colony's need above individuals that bothers me, or the need to conserve all genes etc. It's the part about how the pregnant character's lack of maternal feelings are a biological reaction, a pathology arising from severe overcrowding on earth. That when, on earth, overcrowding meant that some women couldn't have children, they were given other jobs for the sake of their mental health. That because "Man is a rationalising animal, sociologists and things called it "Women's Liberation" That when she these feelings wear off, and her hormones come back to normal, she'll probably be a good mother. All colony women sign up to have 2 children, but usually have 4. Four being, about right, psychologically speaking. That was what bothered me. It is abundantly clear to me that they were MZB's opinions at the time. Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:34:55 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: shrot excerpt from Darkover to demosntrate how times change ... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Maire Shanahan wrote: > It's not really the part about having to put the > colony's need above > individuals that bothers me, or the need to conserve > all genes etc. > It's the part about... I totally agree; the excerpt you posted made the guy sound VERY condescending and patronizing and "there, there; you're not quite normal yet, but you will be soon" *GAG* I have no opinion on whether those were MZB's feelings or not, not having read any Darkover novels. Speaking of which, can anyone give me or point me to a page that gives a reasonable rundown of Darkover chronology and where a good place to start reading might be? -Sandy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:50:43 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Darkover order In-Reply-To: <20010219233455.13158.qmail@web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:34 PM 2/19/01 -0800, you wrote: > Speaking >of which, can anyone give me or point me to a page >that gives a reasonable rundown of Darkover chronology >and where a good place to start reading might be? > -Sandy This page has two different lists, one is by publication and one is by Darkover history. The URL is: http://darkover.cx/guide/books/novels.darkover-time.en.html While there isn't a recommended order on the page, it does have some suggestions of what to start with, what the mini-series within the overall series are, and what can stand alone. Darkover is one of those series where one can start anywhere and read them in any order. Jennifer- trying to figure out a reading order for Darkover myself. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:49:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Lilith's Brood, disapointing I've just finished Butler's Lilith's Brood, and I must say I am disapointed from a feminist perspective. In the first book, Dawn, the main character Lilith is supposed to teach and prepare for living on earth the other humans rescued/captured by the parastical by compassionate race. She fails miserably and has to be separated from her fellow humans since they distrust her so much they may kill her. So, a woman can't handle the job. In the second book, Adult Rites, the main character Akin, who is a human-parasiterace construct, wants to convince the parasitical race to let humans live on mars as "pure" humans. He succeeds. A man can get the job done. In the third book, Imago, the main character grows up expecting and wanting to become male. Instead he becomes the third neither female nor male sex. Its aim is to find human partners and to help a reproducing village of human resisters either go to Mars or mate with the parasites as the humans choose. It succeeds. Again, heaven forbid a woman, let a lone a feminine woman should succeed in an important task. I was also bothered that the third book would not be about convincing the parasites not to destroy the earth. The ethics of preserving a vibrant ecosystem for the ecosystem's sake is not touched upon at all! The female unable to be successful unless she is part male kind of idea reminds of a conversation I once had. Someone mentioned to me there were little girls who liked to wear dresses and little girls who liked to climb trees. Much annoyed I retorted that I liked to wear dresses *and* climb trees. Tom boys are great, but not all of us were tom boys and yes we still liked having adventures and being daring. Any suggestions for books that do not deny that point of view? Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:38:17 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing In-Reply-To: <200102210610.AAA32950@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Cynthia wrote: > > I've just finished Butler's Lilith's Brood, and I must say I am > disapointed from a feminist perspective. I was too, for some similar and some different reasons. > In the first book, Dawn, the main character Lilith is supposed to > teach and prepare for living on earth the other humans > rescued/captured by the parastical by compassionate race. She fails > miserably and has to be separated from her fellow humans since they > distrust her so much they may kill her. So, a woman can't handle the > job. > > In the second book, Adult Rites, the main character Akin, who is a > human-parasiterace construct, wants to convince the parasitical race > to let humans live on mars as "pure" humans. He succeeds. A man can > get the job done. > > In the third book, Imago, the main character grows up expecting and > wanting to become male. Instead he becomes the third neither female > nor male sex. Its aim is to find human partners and to help a > reproducing village of human resisters either go to Mars or mate with > the parasites as the humans choose. It succeeds. Again, heaven forbid > a woman, let a lone a feminine woman should succeed in an important > task. Hmm, I'd not noticed that while reading this series, but that point of view makes sense. > I was also bothered that the third book would not be about convincing > the parasites not to destroy the earth. The ethics of preserving a > vibrant ecosystem for the ecosystem's sake is not touched upon at all! Agreed! That part of the book really bothered me. All of Butler's work is shot through with an extremely negative view of humanity, and the natural world is normally treated as irrelevant. That's far enough from my own worldview that I have *lots* of trouble reading her work. She writes well, but not at all to my taste. > The female unable to be successful unless she is part male kind of > idea reminds of a conversation I once had. Someone mentioned to me > there were little girls who liked to wear dresses and little girls who > liked to climb trees. Much annoyed I retorted that I liked to wear > dresses *and* climb trees. Tom boys are great, but not all of us were > tom boys and yes we still liked having adventures and being daring. > Any suggestions for books that do not deny that point of view? That's not a terribly popular approach these days. A quick look at my book shelves turned up very little. The only choice that even comes close is _Conflict of Honors_ by Sharon Lee and Steve Miller (part of their Liad series, _Agent of Change_, _Conflict of Honors_, _Carpe Diem_, and _Plan D_). Be warned, these books are intensely light fluff, but fun. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.