From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 15:30:02 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:28:07 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0102D" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:32:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing John said: > All of Butler's > work is shot through with an extremely negative view of humanity, > and the natural world is normally treated as irrelevant. That's far > enough from my own worldview that I have *lots* of trouble reading > her work. She writes well, but not at all to my taste. > -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com > Yes, I often run into this sort of thing. I will like an author's message, but not their writing, or I will like an author's writing, but not their message. Then there are in between reactions I have like in the case of MZB's Mists of Avalon, some messages I liked, others I definitely did not, and the writing I did not like at all. Philsophically I ascribe to the French notion of "art for art's sake" but I find I really don't care for books or films I find unethical, so I seem as a reader to practice the British notion of "Art for morality's sake." Am I the only with such a split personality? (: Oh, and thanks Johh, for the book reccomendations. Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:21:39 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Reeves Subject: Need help identifying this story MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, I was wondering if someone could help me to identify the name of the scifi story where all the men on this space ship mysteriously are killed/disappear except for this woman and her baby. Years later when a rescue mission boards the ship and finds the woman and baby only, the woman says, "Look, Baby. Food." (or something to that effect). Sounds too fun, but was told to me by someone else who can't remember the name, only that the story was written by a famous scifi author. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Phoebe -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:18:49 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer H Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing In-Reply-To: <000901c09b6d$cd23f440$b1bbfd3f@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I didn't see the successes and failures in communicating with the aliens as due to gender. They seemed to be about *generational* and *species* differences to me. It's been awhile since I read the book but I don't think Lilith was the only one who experienses failure. I remember Lilith's young neuter alien partner expressing frustration and distress because the other aliens did not listen to it because of it's age. Both Lilith and her younger alien mate have difficulties because the majority of aliens will not take their generation seriously. It is not until the next generation when there are people part human and part Onkali that there is a human/Oonkali blend who is able to get the aliens to listen....but he can't get many of the *humans* to listen to him. In order to be listened to by the Oonkali one must become part Oonkali, but that in turn may alienate "pure" humans. Maybe it's time for me to reread these and see what I find. -Jennifer >I've just finished Butler's Lilith's Brood, and I must say I am disapointed >from a feminist perspective. > >In the first book, Dawn, the main character Lilith is supposed to teach and >prepare for living on earth the other humans rescued/captured by the >parastical by compassionate race. She fails miserably and has to be >separated from her fellow humans since they distrust her so much they may >kill her. So, a woman can't handle the job. > >In the second book, Adult Rites, the main character Akin, who is a >human-parasiterace construct, wants to convince the parasitical race to let >humans live on mars as "pure" humans. He succeeds. A man can get the job >done. > >In the third book, Imago, the main character grows up expecting and wanting >to become male. Instead he becomes the third neither female nor male sex. >Its aim is to find human partners and to help a reproducing village of human >resisters either go to Mars or mate with the parasites as the humans choose. >It succeeds. Again, heaven forbid a woman, let a lone a feminine woman >should succeed in an important task. > >I was also bothered that the third book would not be about convincing the >parasites not to destroy the earth. The ethics of preserving a vibrant >ecosystem for the ecosystem's sake is not touched upon at all! > >The female unable to be successful unless she is part male kind of idea >reminds of a conversation I once had. Someone mentioned to me there were >little girls who liked to wear dresses and little girls who liked to climb >trees. Much annoyed I retorted that I liked to wear dresses *and* climb >trees. Tom boys are great, but not all of us were tom boys and yes we still >liked having adventures and being daring. Any suggestions for books that do >not deny that point of view? > >Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:40:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patricia Monk Subject: Re: Need help identifying this story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phoebe Reeves wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > I was wondering if someone could help me to identify the name of the scifi > story where all the men on this space ship mysteriously are killed/disappear > except for this woman and her baby. Years later when a rescue mission boards > the ship and finds the woman and baby only, the woman says, "Look, Baby. > Food." (or something to that effect). Sounds too fun, but was told to me by > someone else who can't remember the name, only that the story was written by a > famous scifi author. The story is "Survival" by John Wyndham. It is in his collection _The Seeds of Time_ (Penguin, 1959). -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:02:28 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Reeves Subject: Re: Need help identifying this story MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thank you , Patricia! Phoebe Patricia Monk wrote: > Phoebe Reeves wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > I was wondering if someone could help me to identify the name of the scifi > > story where all the men on this space ship mysteriously are killed/disappear > > except for this woman and her baby. Years later when a rescue mission boards > > the ship and finds the woman and baby only, the woman says, "Look, Baby. > > Food." (or something to that effect). Sounds too fun, but was told to me by > > someone else who can't remember the name, only that the story was written by a > > famous scifi author. > > The story is "Survival" by John Wyndham. It is in his > collection _The Seeds of Time_ > (Penguin, 1959). > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:50:50 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I pretty much agree with Jennifer, but must take exception to Cynthia's reading of the trilogy. I think she makes the same mistake the characters in the books do--she doesn't accept the rules as laid down by the author (in our case) or the Oankali (in the characters' cases). There IS NO "vibrant ecosystem" to be saved. In the universe of these novels, we humans have ALREADY destroyed it. What is left is not going to last, and so the Oankali feel justified in "eating" it. What species exist at the beginning on this trilogy only exist because the Oankali have rescued them. Now, you can call the aliens "parasites" if you want, and I can certainly understand why you might. But parasites simply destroy their hosts. In this story, the "parasite" species is presented as the only hope humanity has. They will change us beyond recognition, but that's what they do to all the species they encounter. Is this upsetting? Yeah, obviously. Can it be stopped by the characters in the novels? No. The interesting tension in these books lies right there, and it is what interests me about Butler's worldview. She's saying to us, "look: the world has elements that we don't like very much. We can choose to accept this and figure out how to work with it, or we can pretend those elements don't exist, and keep going wrong in the same old ways." Given her upbringing as an African-American lesbian having to live with dogmatic Southern Baptists, I imagine she has had to learn to deal with an uncongenial world for most of her life. She could pretend it's not uncongenial and keep beating her head against that particular wall, or she could write stories that explore the ways people learn to deal with harsh situations. I like her hardheadedness. I like the way she forces careful readers to confront these situations and ask themselves how they would handle them. I also understand that a lot of readers are turned off, but I really do wonder if these are people who have been able, for reasons of race and sexual orientation, to pretend that the world doesn't contain those destructive elements, or that they really aren't so bad once you learn to like them. I have met the Oankali, and they are Newt Gingrich, Arlen Specter, George W. Bush, the Southern Baptist Convention, The Defense of Marriage Act, nice people in upper-bracket neighborhoods who will give money to liberal causes but not invite to dinner the poor benighted folks they pay to "help," etc. Sheryl Jennifer said, >I didn't see the successes and failures in communicating with the aliens as >due to gender. They seemed to be about *generational* and *species* >differences to me. > >It's been awhile since I read the book but I don't think Lilith was the >only one who experienses failure. I remember Lilith's young neuter alien >partner expressing frustration and distress because the other aliens did >not listen to it because of it's age. Both Lilith and her younger alien >mate have difficulties because the majority of aliens will not take their >generation seriously. > >It is not until the next generation when there are people part human and >part Onkali that there is a human/Oonkali blend who is able to get the >aliens to listen....but he can't get many of the *humans* to listen to him. > Because Cynthia said: >>I've just finished Butler's Lilith's Brood, and I must say I am disapointed >>from a feminist perspective. >>I was also bothered that the third book would not be about convincing the >>parasites not to destroy the earth. The ethics of preserving a vibrant >>ecosystem for the ecosystem's sake is not touched upon at all! >> > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:56:10 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jocelyn & Sheryl wrote: > <>The interesting tension in these books lies right there, and it is what > interests me about Butler's worldview. She's saying to us, "look: the world > has elements that we don't like very much. We can choose to accept this and > figure out how to work with it, or we can pretend those elements don't > exist, and keep going wrong in the same old ways." Given her upbringing as > an African-American lesbian having to live with dogmatic Southern Baptists, > I imagine she has had to learn to deal with an uncongenial world for most of > her life. Clarification of a point here: Octavia grew up among black Baptists, NOT Southern Baptists. Historically, the Southern Baptists were the faction that broke off from the American Baptists before the Civil War over the issue of slavery. Until VERY recently, they have not had ANY black members, and in fact they were the home church of many of the most rabid racists, as well as others. In recent years, they have been taken over by their most spiritually and ideologically extreme reactionary faction, and many more moderate people such as Jimmy Carter [and myself] feel that their home has been stolen from them. Ironically, during this same period the SBC has worked with ultra-conservative black congregations, and has induced some of them to join the Convention; and the Convention as a whole adopted a resolution in 1995 denouncing racism and repudiating its past defense of slavery and opposition to the civil rights movement. Black Baptists, on the other hand, have historically been divided among several denominational bodies (the National Baptist Convention, the Progressive National Baptist Convention, and others), and also include a lot of unaffiliated congregations, often referred to as Missionary Baptist churches. So Octavia had to live with Baptists who were Southern blacks, but not with Southern Baptists (not as family, anyway). -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey Curtin Hall 284 University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee P.O. Box 413 Milwaukee, WI 53201-0413 414.229.5960 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:58:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing > I pretty much agree with Jennifer, but must take exception to Cynthia's > reading of the trilogy. I think she makes the same mistake the characters > in the books do--she doesn't accept the rules as laid down by the author (in > our case) or the Oankali (in the characters' cases). There IS NO "vibrant > ecosystem" to be saved. The earth, as described in the novels, has life that has been rescued by the parasite people but the earth does live, vibrantly. The descriptions of the forests are not of sickly dying forest, but of forests full of life and growth. In the universe of these novels, we humans have > ALREADY destroyed it. What is left is not going to last, and so the Oankali > feel justified in "eating" it. Not everything was destroyed and the idea that it is ok to destroy *all* life on a planet just because you are the one who brought it back to health is repugnant to me. The Romans gave the man the right to murder his wife and children because his wife is his and he "created" his children. This seems to me to be similar to the parasite people's point of view. We created it so we can kill it. That is an absolutely appauling ethic. What species exist at the beginning on this > trilogy only exist because the Oankali have rescued them. > > Now, you can call the aliens "parasites" if you want, and I can certainly > understand why you might. But parasites simply destroy their hosts. Which is exactly what is going to happen to the planet earth. A few humans are rescued, a few creatures great and small, but the rest is to be utterly consumed and destroyed. In > this story, the "parasite" species is presented as the only hope humanity > has. Whenever an author presents me with an "only" solution they loose me. When talking about a *world* one is talking about a dynamic system, which means there will always be many solutions, not just one. > They will change us beyond recognition, but that's what they do to all > the species they encounter. Is this upsetting? Yeah, obviously. Can it be > stopped by the characters in the novels? No. The hero of the second book does stop; he arranges for "pure" humans to go live on Mars. > ask themselves how they would handle them. I also understand that a lot of > readers are turned off, but I really do wonder if these are people who have > been able, for reasons of race and sexual orientation, to pretend that the > world doesn't contain those destructive elements, or that they really aren't > so bad once you learn to like them. This is a really offensive statement. I think this particular triology has troubling ethical points of view and therefore I have blinders to the world? The books present hetersexual men as being basically dangerously violent; the books present hetersexual women as being incapable of accomplishing important goals; the books present the natural world as something that can be goobbled up and spewed up as a barren rock. The first two points of view are biggoted. The third is so appaulling ignorant that it is dangerous. I have met the Oankali, and they are > Newt Gingrich, Arlen Specter, George W. Bush, the Southern Baptist > Convention, The Oankali are not presented as such shallow one-dimension people as these real life people are. The Oankali are presented as a loving, compassion, intelligent race that truly believe the best way to preserve life is to mate with it to combine genes with it. Show me Newt's other race partners. Further the Oankali also change their minds when reasonable argument and factual evidence are compelling. Since when did Bush who stole the election ever change his mind except to suit himself? One of the strengths of the trilog is nobody is a pure villian which is one reason why I read it all. Nevertheless, the books have ethics that are anathma to me. The Defense of Marriage Act, I have no idea what this is. >nice people in upper-bracket > neighborhoods who will give money to liberal causes but not invite to dinner > the poor benighted folks they pay to "help," etc. Let's generalize, shall we? Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:23:51 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The era in which the books take place is several thousand (or was it hundred?) years after Lilith's life pre-alien-intervention. Humans had completely destroyed the earth there was no ecology left. In the intervening extremely long period between the aliens arriving just in time to save a remnant few humans from being destroyed along with everyone else and the ecosystem (many nuclear bombs having been let off from memory) ; and when these remnant humans returned to earth; the aliens produced a new ecosystem and gave it the many, many years it needed to become established undisturbed. SO, the ecosystem was in fact unfamiliar to the humans, with many plant and animal varieties that had not existed previously. It was very hard to accept that the aliens were going to destroy the earth. But I think that, when humanity destroyed the earth originally, it lost the right to be outraged about the aliens doing the same. I mean, I found it very upsetting- but the fact was that earth had already been destroyed. Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 02:13:45 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing In-Reply-To: <200102240600.AAA44522@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maire Shanahan > The era in which the books take place is several thousand (or was it > hundred?) years after Lilith's life pre-alien-intervention. Humans had > completely destroyed the earth there was no ecology left. In the > intervening extremely long period between the aliens arriving just in > time to save a remnant few humans from being destroyed along with > everyone else and the ecosystem (many nuclear bombs having been let > off from memory) ; and when these remnant humans returned to earth; > the aliens produced a new ecosystem and gave it the many, many years > it needed to become established undisturbed. SO, the ecosystem was in > fact unfamiliar to the humans, with many plant and animal varieties > that had not existed previously. It was very hard to accept that the > aliens were going to destroy the earth. But I think that, when > humanity destroyed the earth originally, it lost the right to be > outraged about the aliens doing the same. I mean, I found it very > upsetting- but the fact was that earth had already been destroyed. Two wrongs do not make right. It may have been destroyed, but it was thriving and vibrant once humanity had been returned to Earth. The human's destruction of Earth ecosystem was presented in the first book as a horror, the Oankali's destruction of Earth's ecosystem was presented as no big deal. I find that attitude appalling and honestly incomprehensible. The animals and plants are no less living and independent beings for having been saved by the Oankali. The Oankali's whole attitude reminded me of the biblical "man has dominion over all the earth" nonsense that has made much of Western Civilization so destructive and careless. Yech. Butler seems happy to disparage humanity for various wrongs, but only humanity. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:44:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing > The era in which the books take place is several ... the aliens produced a new > ecosystem and gave it the many, many years it needed to become established But the book makes it clear, an ecosystem was re-established and it is self-sustaining and vibrant. > But I think that, when humanity destroyed the earth originally, it lost the > right to be outraged about the aliens doing the same. My objection is not about any right of humanity's; it is about the right of all the life of the ecosystem. To kill an entire ecosystem because you think that because you helped it back to life gives you the right to kill it is just an appauling idea, totally unethical. Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:25:55 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I personally thought that Butler made the Oonkali's intentions and actions so hard to accept to create exactly this conflict in her readers. The humans- who we probably agree with re their horror that the earth is to be destroyed and humanity 'absorbed by the Oonkali- but who perfectly demonstrate the worst of human character. And the Oonkali, who are much easier to like, and re presented as rational and compassionate- but .. to them this trade is totally ethical. You also have to remember how strongly the Oonkali believe in the' 'Human contradiction' - they don't think there is any situation in which humans are not doomed to annihilate themselves- and I see no great reason to disbelieve them. To them, rendering the humans sterile is an act of kindness to prevent the cycle of suffering. Given humans record with the environment, there is no reason to believe that if the Oonkali were not to use up he earth- but instead leave it for the humans- that the humans wouldn't destroy it a second time. The fact is, however, that most people including myself in the place of the humans in the book would react with horror at the knowledge that the earth was to be consumed. But I think personally that Butler wanted us to have that reaction, so as to confront our own 'we own it so we can do what we ant with it' attitude towards many things including the environment. If we are so horrified at the idea of aliens that replenish the earth after nuclear disaster, but then consume ht earth for resources- then how much more should we look at our own behaviour. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:53:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow Sheryl, you certainly put these books subtexts' virtues in a nutshell! Couldn't have said it better myself! Why Butler is one of my #1 favorite writers! Amy > I pretty much agree with Jennifer, but must take exception to Cynthia's > reading of the trilogy. I think she makes the same mistake the characters > in the books do--she doesn't accept the rules as laid down by the author (in > our case) or the Oankali (in the characters' cases). There IS NO "vibrant > ecosystem" to be saved. In the universe of these novels, we humans have > ALREADY destroyed it. What is left is not going to last, and so the Oankali > feel justified in "eating" it. What species exist at the beginning on this > trilogy only exist because the Oankali have rescued them. > > Now, you can call the aliens "parasites" if you want, and I can certainly > understand why you might. But parasites simply destroy their hosts. In > this story, the "parasite" species is presented as the only hope humanity > has. They will change us beyond recognition, but that's what they do to all > the species they encounter. Is this upsetting? Yeah, obviously. Can it be > stopped by the characters in the novels? No. > > The interesting tension in these books lies right there, and it is what > interests me about Butler's worldview. She's saying to us, "look: the world > has elements that we don't like very much. We can choose to accept this and > figure out how to work with it, or we can pretend those elements don't > exist, and keep going wrong in the same old ways." Given her upbringing as > an African-American lesbian having to live with dogmatic Southern Baptists, > I imagine she has had to learn to deal with an uncongenial world for most of > her life. She could pretend it's not uncongenial and keep beating her head > against that particular wall, or she could write stories that explore the > ways people learn to deal with harsh situations. I like her hardheadedness. > I like the way she forces careful readers to confront these situations and > ask themselves how they would handle them. I also understand that a lot of > readers are turned off, but I really do wonder if these are people who have > been able, for reasons of race and sexual orientation, to pretend that the > world doesn't contain those destructive elements, or that they really aren't > so bad once you learn to like them. I have met the Oankali, and they are > Newt Gingrich, Arlen Specter, George W. Bush, the Southern Baptist > Convention, The Defense of Marriage Act, nice people in upper-bracket > neighborhoods who will give money to liberal causes but not invite to dinner > the poor benighted folks they pay to "help," etc. > Sheryl > > > > > > Jennifer said, > > >I didn't see the successes and failures in communicating with the aliens as > >due to gender. They seemed to be about *generational* and *species* > >differences to me. > > > >It's been awhile since I read the book but I don't think Lilith was the > >only one who experienses failure. I remember Lilith's young neuter alien > >partner expressing frustration and distress because the other aliens did > >not listen to it because of it's age. Both Lilith and her younger alien > >mate have difficulties because the majority of aliens will not take their > >generation seriously. > > > >It is not until the next generation when there are people part human and > >part Onkali that there is a human/Oonkali blend who is able to get the > >aliens to listen....but he can't get many of the *humans* to listen to him. > > > Because Cynthia said: > >>I've just finished Butler's Lilith's Brood, and I must say I am > disapointed > >>from a feminist perspective. > > >>I was also bothered that the third book would not be about convincing the > >>parasites not to destroy the earth. The ethics of preserving a vibrant > >>ecosystem for the ecosystem's sake is not touched upon at all! > >> > > > >-------------------------------------------------- > >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:38:45 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 24 Feb 2001 to 25 Feb 2001 (#2001-43) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sheryl said: >I also understand that a lot of >readers are turned off, but I really do wonder if these are people >who >have >been able, for reasons of race and sexual orientation, to pretend that >the >world doesn't contain those destructive elements, or that they >really >aren't so bad once you learn to like them. I have met the >Oankali, and >they are >Newt Gingrich, Arlen Specter, George W. Bush, the Southern Baptist >Convention, The Defense of Marriage Act, nice people in upper-bracket >neighborhoods who will give money to liberal causes but not invite to >dinner the poor benighted folks they pay to "help," etc. Hmm... I see Butler as saying almost the opposite! The Oankali are creepy, and fascinating, *and* complete bastards. I see this ambivalence-towards-the-oppressor in a lot of Butler's work, from the early "Bloodchild" to the Patternmaster story to Xenogenesis -- and most starkly, in _Kindred_, where the protagonist has a deeply ambivalent relationship to her slavemaster ancestor. This is a bitter and complicated relationship, but it seems to fit human reality pretty well. At least my corner of reality. Danny _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:28:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Kara Dalkey In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:48 PM 1/21/01 -0700, you wrote: >but Crystal Sage is also good -- >particularly if you've read the first book. >-l. I was just reading through the Dalkey posts because I bought Crystal Sage last week. First book? Darn it, I thought when I picked up Crystal Sage that it was a stand alone. Well, once again, I've managed to pick up a book in a series without realizing it. What is the first book and are there more than two in the series? Thanks. Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:42:44 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Kara Dalkey In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010227162555.00abbf00@mail.superior.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 2/27/01 2:28 PM, Jennifer R. J. at jenjavar@SUPERIOR.NET wrote: > At 03:48 PM 1/21/01 -0700, you wrote: >> but Crystal Sage is also good -- >> particularly if you've read the first book. >> -l. > > I was just reading through the Dalkey posts because I bought Crystal > Sage last week. > First book? Darn it, I thought when I picked up Crystal Sage that it > was a stand alone. Well, once again, I've managed to pick up a book in a > series without realizing it. What is the first book and are there more > than two in the series? Thanks. _Steel Rose_ is the first. I know she was working on a third but I'm not current on whether it's out yet (as out of touch as I can get, she might well be on the fourth or fifth by now!). -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ _Proxies_: A Tor Books SF paperback Nov 1999 * ISBN 0-812-52387-3 "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:15:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing > You also have to remember how strongly the Oonkali believe in the' 'Human > contradiction' - they don't think there is any situation in which humans are > not doomed to annihilate themselves- and I see no great reason to disbelieve > them. Now you are touching upon another aspect of the book that I was disapointed in. Just because the parasite people are a more intelligetn compassionate race, does not mean they are right, and this premise of the book that humans are unalterable flawed is simply not true. Human men in the books are depicted as basically violent. But men are *not* naturally violent. I live in a neighborhood that proves this every single day. Boys are regularly spanked, hit, and beaten. We know that children who are just spanked, not beaten grow up to be much more aggressive, have poor self-esteem (which is actually a very big deal), and misbehave more than they would if they were not spanked. Next, the children in my neighborhood have nice toys bought for them, but the parents do not play with them, and the toys are sometimes bought at the expense of things the children really need. Parental interaction is very important for a child's intellectual growth. For instance one neighbor bought her son a go-cart (which go for about $900). This child is behind in school and is danger of becoming mentally retarded. He needs professional tutoring, not a go cart. When he goes up he will expect to be able to have nice things but will not have the social tools to earn them. Next, the ethical teachings from some of the parents is deplorable. "You don't steal from your Mamma, but what you do outside is your business." When I caught a child stoning birds, his mother said, "All kids do that, so long as he doesn't kill them it is ok." Next, the parents scream, curse at, and use the worst of grammar when speaking to their children, and the schools only have success with those children who are more intelligent and have no learning problems. The local school is one of Miami's many "F" schools. (Let me emphasize that the people in my neighborhood are *very*nice people, friendly, helpful, and outgoing.) With all these factors of being spanked, not having their minds challenged, and getting bad ethics there is no surprise that so many children, especially the boys who get treated worse grow up to be very aggressive. Any parenting class will teach parents these things and will teach them better parenting skills, but most parents don't think they need to learn how to parent. When I read science fiction, I do have a quasy expectation that the premises will be valid, that is supposed to be the basis of the form after all, so when the premises are so wrong, and just a little reading in the appropriate field will give the correct premises, I am disapointed. > But I think personally that Butler wanted us to have that reaction, so as to > confront our own 'we own it so we can do what we ant with it' attitude > towards many things including the environment. If we are so horrified at the > idea of aliens that replenish the earth after nuclear disaster, but then > consume ht earth for resources- then how much more should we look at our own > behaviour. I don't agree that Butler had this intention; however, her intention in this regard is irrelevant because, yes readers will look at their own behavior and say "uh oh! Is this how I am? Should I change." That is why books are important they can transcend the author's intent. Books that have the courage to clearly state a message, as Butler's do, then become very good vehicles for learning better ethics whether the ethics be those of the book or those that renounce the ethics of the book. Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:03:00 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Shanahan Subject: Re: Lilith's Brood, disapointing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I was to accept that your observations of your neighbourhood are a valid tool to analyse human character (which I have to say I don't); then from the sounds of that neighbourhood, it's more likely to support the Oonkali's belief that humans are fundamentally flawed. In any case, I guess we'll all just have to have our different opinions. By the way- I don't think you can 'grow up to become mentally retarded'. Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:36:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Kara Dalkey In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:42 PM 2/27/01 -0700, you wrote: >_Steel Rose_ is the first. I know she was working on a third but I'm not >current on whether it's out yet (as out of touch as I can get, she might >well be on the fourth or fifth by now!). >-l. >-- >Laura J. Mixon Argh! I've been trying to only buy stuff in series I already started reading or to buy stand-alones. And Steel Rose is out of print too. Oh well, I shop for used books often, so hopefully I will find it sometime. I wasn't able to find anything about newer books in the series, so hopefully it's still just two. Thanks again. Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:43:41 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Kara Dalkey In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010227223405.00b98b00@mail.superior.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 2/27/01 8:36 PM, Jennifer R. J. at jenjavar@SUPERIOR.NET wrote: > At 02:42 PM 2/27/01 -0700, you wrote: >> _Steel Rose_ is the first. I know she was working on a third but I'm not >> current on whether it's out yet (as out of touch as I can get, she might >> well be on the fourth or fifth by now!). >> -l. >> -- >> Laura J. Mixon > > Argh! I've been trying to only buy stuff in series I already started > reading or to buy stand-alones. And Steel Rose is out of print too. Oh > well, I shop for used books often, so hopefully I will find it sometime. I > wasn't able to find anything about newer books in the series, so hopefully > it's still just two. Thanks again. > Jennifer I should correct myself; these books are all written in the same universe, but they are each meant to stand alone, with a different setting and different characters. There are some minor characters common to both, and it enhances your pleasure on reading the second to recognize them -- but it's not necessary to read them "in order." -l. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:50:29 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sarah Young Subject: Intro Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed OK, I'll admit to cheating here... I joined two sci-fi lists today, so you're both getting the same intro. I'm Sarah, a Clevelander, 26, a computer helpdesk analyst to pay the rent, but consider my career to be activism of various sorts (Women's Health, Bi, Poly, Sex-Positive feminism, Trans-ally, etc). Sci-fi is really more than just a genre for me; it was my initial introduction to different ways of thinking about gender/sexuality/class/etc, and I think that the inherent suspension of disbelief involved allows for some very potent analysis of other ways of existing. In other words - "It warped my fwagile widdle mind" *grin*. I also think it's fun. Actually, the impetus for going out and finding a sci-fi list today was watching "Enemy Mine" last night after it was discussed on a great genderqueer list called Sphere. It's interesting to have discussions about sci-fi on queer and genderqueer lists, because we tend to find that it was a significant source of hope, especially during adolescence. However, those threads eventually die out, since they're not the purpose of the list. I'm hoping currently to find an interesting ongoing discussion of sci-fi/fantasy within a comfortable context. For me, this tends to be feminist, queer, or genderqueer communities (I think it has something to do with some of the theoretical framework we tend to bring to our analysis of things). Anyway, that's me. My sci-fi/fantasy interests are all over the map; everything from hard science fiction to sword/sworcery, but I tend to have an enduring fondness for what I term "anthropological sci-fi" - that which tries to postulate completely "other" cultures, human or alien. --Sarah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:24:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Kara Dalkey In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:43 PM 2/27/01 -0700, you wrote: >I should correct myself; these books are all written in the same universe, >but they are each meant to stand alone, with a different setting and >different characters. There are some minor characters common to both, and >it enhances your pleasure on reading the second to recognize them -- but >it's not necessary to read them "in order." >-l. Aha. Okay, thank you. So the pleasure of encountering the characters in both books could work both ways, correct? Well, I'll try Crystal Sage then and see how I like it. Thanks again! Jennifer -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.