From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 15:51:01 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:48:00 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0103A" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 01:43:06 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: The Graveyard Game In-Reply-To: <200103010614.AAA49714@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT While Kage Baker may not specifically be a feminist author, having heard her talk at a con, she is definitely both a feminist and a really cool person. I just finished her most recent book (book IV in her Company series, _The Graveyard Game_ and found it wonderful (if somewhat darker than the others). I recommend it highly. Btw, does anyone know when book 5 (which will almost certainly be the final one) will be out? Also, welcome Sarah its' nice to see another sphere person here. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:31:48 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: I forget... Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit has anyone discussed whether this is worth the time? http://www.scifi.com/kindred/ -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:20:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Intro MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Welcome Sarah! You and I have thw exact seame tastes in SF & F! *VBG* Amy in NYC (please check out my SF & F book reviews where I contribute regularly: scifidimensions.com, rambles.net, thetroll.net and Blue Iris Journal). > OK, I'll admit to cheating here... I joined two sci-fi lists today, so > you're both getting the same intro. > > I'm Sarah, a Clevelander, 26, a computer helpdesk analyst to pay the rent, > but consider my career to be activism of various sorts (Women's Health, Bi, > Poly, Sex-Positive feminism, Trans-ally, etc). Sci-fi is really more than > just a genre for me; it was my initial introduction to different ways of > thinking about gender/sexuality/class/etc, and I think that the inherent > suspension of disbelief involved allows for some very potent analysis of > other ways of existing. In other words - "It warped my fwagile widdle mind" > *grin*. I also think it's fun. Actually, the impetus for going out and > finding a sci-fi list today was watching "Enemy Mine" last night after it > was discussed on a great genderqueer list called Sphere. It's interesting > to have discussions about sci-fi on queer and genderqueer lists, because we > tend to find that it was a significant source of hope, especially during > adolescence. However, those threads eventually die out, since they're not > the purpose of the list. I'm hoping currently to find an interesting > ongoing discussion of sci-fi/fantasy within a comfortable context. For me, > this tends to be feminist, queer, or genderqueer communities (I think it has > something to do with some of the theoretical framework we tend to bring to > our analysis of things). Anyway, that's me. > > My sci-fi/fantasy interests are all over the map; everything from hard > science fiction to sword/sworcery, but I tend to have an enduring fondness > for what I term "anthropological sci-fi" - that which tries to postulate > completely "other" cultures, human or alien. > > --Sarah > > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:27:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Intro In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 2/28/01 4:50 PM, Sarah Young at sarah_whitman_young@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > OK, I'll admit to cheating here... I joined two sci-fi lists today, so > you're both getting the same intro. > Welcome, Sarah! I too enjoy the gender-bending stuff sff is so good at. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ _Proxies_: A Tor Books SF paperback Nov 1999 * ISBN 0-812-52387-3 "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 12:18:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sarah Young Subject: Re: Welcome to FSFFU; Are You Coming to WisCon? (plus note on language) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thanks for all the welcomes... I don't know about WisCon; I'd love to make it, but if I can pull off a conference this May, I'm pretty committed to BECAUSE, a Bi conference in Milwaukee, beginning of the month. As to the language thing; I've been aware of that debate for quite a while, but I can't say that I really agree with Harlan on this one. I use sci-fi/science fiction/SF/speculative fiction pretty interchangably, depending on context, my mood, and who I'm talking to. If it'll be a serious "irk" point for folks here, I'll try to remember to use "SF" or "science fiction" in this context. --Sarah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:14:12 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Intro In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:50 PM 2/28/01 -0500, Sarah Young wrote: >*grin*. I also think it's fun. Actually, the impetus for going out and >finding a sci-fi list today was watching "Enemy Mine" last night after it >was discussed on a great genderqueer list called Sphere. It's interesting If you mean the movie with the same title as a story by Barry B. Longyear . . . a few years ago, a fan put together a Science Fiction Book of Lists, and Barry B. Longyear (he's _very_ pernickety about the "B.") contributed the Ten Worst Science Fiction Movies. "Enemy Mine" was numbers 1 through 9. Which is a long way of saying, get the book and read that! > >My sci-fi/fantasy interests are all over the map; everything from hard >science fiction to sword/sworcery, but I tend to have an enduring fondness >for what I term "anthropological sci-fi" - that which tries to postulate >completely "other" cultures, human or alien. > Well, in the society of science fiction fans, "sci fi" is usually shuddered at. That's the name for The Eggplant that Ate Chicago, not the literature of grand ideas and scope we love so much. "Science fiction" and "sf" are fine, but the only fan who can get away with "sci fi" is Forry Ackerman, who invented it, and is sui generis anyway. Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:34:26 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Longyear and his sci-fi, used advisedly: after Rest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yes, if you like, but for your sanity's sake avoid the Momus stories by Longyear, thankfully long out of print. (Very, very bad imitation Jack Vance.) Ackerman was contructing after "hi-fi," a term which is only used nostalgically for high-fidelity today...would that sigh-fie, sky-fi, skiffy, was similarly out of popular usage. TM -----Original Message----- From: Neil Rest [mailto:NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM] Actually, the impetus for going out and >finding a sci-fi list today was watching "Enemy Mine" last night after it >was discussed on a great genderqueer list called Sphere. It's interesting If you mean the movie with the same title as a story by Barry B. Longyear . . . a few years ago, a fan put together a Science Fiction Book of Lists, and Barry B. Longyear (he's _very_ pernickety about the "B.") contributed the Ten Worst Science Fiction Movies. "Enemy Mine" was numbers 1 through 9. Which is a long way of saying, get the book and read that! t I term "anthropological sci-fi" - that which tries to postulate >completely "other" cultures, human or alien. > Well, in the society of science fiction fans, "sci fi" is usually shuddered at. That's the name for The Eggplant that Ate Chicago, not the literature of grand ideas and scope we love so much. "Science fiction" and "sf" are fine, but the only fan who can get away with "sci fi" is Forry Ackerman, who invented it, and is sui generis anyway. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:53:10 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Intro Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Neil Rest wrote: >Well, in the society of science fiction fans, "sci fi" is usually shuddered >at. That's the name for The Eggplant that Ate Chicago, not the literature >of grand ideas and scope we love so much. "Science fiction" and "sf" are >fine, but the only fan who can get away with "sci fi" is Forry Ackerman, >who invented it, and is sui generis anyway. What's wrong with The Eggplant that Ate Chicago? Sounds like an idea of fairly grand scope to me. In the society of science fiction academics, this kind of ghettoising into Good Art SF and Bad Pulp SF is frowned upon as a reflection of the ghettoising of the entire science fiction genre by the forces of mainstream Literature. Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:27:20 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Intro MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kate Dall wrote: > > Neil Rest wrote: > >Well, in the society of science fiction fans, "sci fi" is usually shuddered > >at. That's the name for The Eggplant that Ate Chicago, not the literature > >of grand ideas and scope we love so much. "Science fiction" and "sf" are > >fine, but the only fan who can get away with "sci fi" is Forry Ackerman, > >who invented it, and is sui generis anyway. > > What's wrong with The Eggplant that Ate Chicago? Sounds like an idea of > fairly grand scope to me. > > In the society of science fiction academics, this kind of ghettoising into > Good Art SF and Bad Pulp SF is frowned upon as a reflection of the > ghettoising of the entire science fiction genre by the forces of mainstream > Literature. Far be it from an un-degreed peasant like me to defend the self-annointed "mainstream"; but Neil is pointing out that here in the ghetto, among those of us wonks, geeks and nerds who were scientifictional when sf wasn't cool, we have chosen (by and large) to use THAT term only for crap. Now, crap is crap, not because of High Art vs. PopCult or low-brow vs. high-brow distinctions, but because it is crap. Crap comes in little university-subsidized magazines that "pay" only in contributors' copies, as well as in the pulps and their successors. Sturgeon's Law still applies. I realize that this list is as good as it is in part because people come here from all sorts of traditions, and I respect and enjoy that. Nonetheless, please be aware that among those of us mere readers who have carried the torch since Palmer's THE COMET and the Staple Wars, those of us who still spend their time and money pubbing their ish and putting on conventions without subsidies or support, the FIAWOL and FIJAGH trufen who have kept the genre alive all these years, the term does give offense (except when used as a pejorative within the tribe) and should be avoided. Thus endeth today's sermon. FIAWOL! -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey orangest@uwm.edu or orange@execpc.com editor, VOJO DE VIVO www.uwm.edu/~orangest -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:44:20 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Daniel Krashin Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 28 Feb 2001 to 1 Mar 2001 (#2001-47) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:53:10 -0000 >From: Kate Dall >Subject: Re: Intro > >Neil Rest wrote: > > >Well, in the society of science fiction fans, "sci fi" is usually >shuddered > >at. That's the name for The Eggplant that Ate Chicago, not the >literature > >of grand ideas and scope we love so much. "Science fiction" and "sf" are > >fine, but the only fan who can get away with "sci fi" is Forry Ackerman, > >who invented it, and is sui generis anyway. > > >What's wrong with The Eggplant that Ate Chicago? Sounds like an idea of >fairly grand scope to me. > >In the society of science fiction academics, this kind of ghettoising into >Good Art SF and Bad Pulp SF is frowned upon as a reflection of the >ghettoising of the entire science fiction genre by the forces of mainstream >Literature. But there is such a thing as hackwork, yes? I mean, there's a difference between Piers Anthony's 43rd Xanth book and the good stuff. And this difference has *nothing* to do with "art SF" -- look at A. E. van Vogt's _Slan_, for example, which is acknowledged by most SF fans to be the Real Thing despite his clumsy writing style and ludicrous plots. On the other hand, Sharon Shinn's recent books are fairly well written, but seem to me to be basically fluff, with an unusual blend of romance and Christian allegory. The problem I have with the academic attitude that quality-doesn't- matter-it's-all-just-text is that quality *does* matter, dammit. It matters to readers, and it should matter to writers, too. To paraphrase Winston Churchill, these SF academics you speak of are forbid any distinction between the fire department and the arsonist. Danny _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:57:54 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: The whole skiffy thing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thing was, Forrest J was editing FAMOUS MONSTERS OF FILMLAND at the time, or shortly after, he coined "sci-fi" to rhyme with "hi-fi," and the term lodged with the kinds of kids who were at least as much interested in the Gill-Man as in Leigh Brackett (their kids would know her, if at all, as the EMPIRE STRIKES BACK first drafter). From them, it spread to the kinds of folk who were quite certain that ALL, I do mean ALL, sf was essentially at the level of GODZILLA VS. THE SMOG MONSTER and FLASH GORDON in any of its avatars. That's why some of us don't like the term. It's been the preferred term of the ignorant, condescending "outsiders" for a lot longer than it's been a useful term for the knowledgeable. And, frankly, it sounds kidsy. And while too much sf may be immature, as has been noted in other fora if some Ursula LeGuin is "sci-fi," doesn't that mean that her contemporary-mimetic fiction should be "li-fi" or "mi-fi"? Would Nicola Griffith's crime fiction be "cri-fi" or "my-fi"? Would Catherine Asaro's romantic sf be as much "ro-fi" as "sci-fi" ("heaving sigh-fi")? I hope these sound as ridiculous to you as to me. THAT's why! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 15:28:21 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: The whole skiffy thing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I must admit I have a tendency to write sci-fi, particularly in a acronym intensive media like the internet - just so people will realise I don't mean San Francisco or Surfer Friendly, or anything else that starts with the same letters. Jane -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:29:59 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: The whole Frisco thing: Fletcher MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Fair enough. Consider "sci-fi" the equivalent of "Frisco," however, to some who love the respective designated. -----Original Message----- From: Jane Fletcher [mailto:jane.fletcher@VIRGIN.NET] I must admit I have a tendency to write sci-fi, particularly in a acronym intensive media like the internet - just so people will realise I don't mean San Francisco or Surfer Friendly, or anything else that starts with the same letters. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 19:57:28 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rowena Subject: Re: The whole skiffy thing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT And I, in my innoncence, just tought that sci-fi was the American term, Rowena -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:10:40 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: The whole skiffy thing: Rowena MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Probably sounds better in Dutch. TM -----Original Message----- From: Rowena [mailto:rowena_a@DDS.NL] And I, in my innoncence, just thought that "sci-fi" was the American term. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:17:50 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Intro In-Reply-To: <3A9FADC8.2AC61DF9@uwm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:27 AM 3/2/01 -0600, "Michael J. Lowrey" wrote: >> Neil Rest wrote: >> >Well, in the society of science fiction fans, "sci fi" is usually shuddered >> >at. That's the name for The Eggplant that Ate Chicago, not the literature >> >of grand ideas and scope we love so much. "Science fiction" and "sf" are >> >fine, but the only fan who can get away with "sci fi" is Forry Ackerman, >> >who invented it, and is sui generis anyway. >> >> What's wrong with The Eggplant that Ate Chicago? Sounds like an idea of >> fairly grand scope to me. >> >> In the society of science fiction academics, this kind of ghettoising into >> Good Art SF and Bad Pulp SF is frowned upon as a reflection of the >> ghettoising of the entire science fiction genre by the forces of mainstream >> Literature. > >Far be it from an un-degreed peasant like me to defend the >self-annointed "mainstream"; but Neil is pointing out that here in the >ghetto, among those of us wonks, geeks and nerds who were >scientifictional when sf wasn't cool, we have chosen (by and large) to >use THAT term only for crap. > >Now, crap is crap, not because of High Art vs. PopCult or low-brow vs. >high-brow distinctions, but because it is crap. Crap comes in little >university-subsidized magazines that "pay" only in contributors' copies, >as well as in the pulps and their successors. Sturgeon's Law still >applies. > Thanks. I guess I should have been clearer that I was addressing the anthropologist-hat wearing aspect. Though it's an amusing coincidence that I'm so far behind because of having spent a long weekend in San Francisco for potlatch, whose Book of Honor was _Thunder and Roses_, in the series of the complete short stories of Theodore Sturgeon. It was Sturgeon who replied, in response to the assertion that "90% of science ficiton is crap," "90% of everything is crap," which [my] fandom knows as Sturgeon's Law. Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:10:51 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: New SF discussion group, FYI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit new group for discussion of general SF books -- mostly a what are you reading type list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IsaacL -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:49:18 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Sci-fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I agree. Crap is crap. Why does SF crap need a separate genre name, if it is not part of some attempt to justify the intelligence and taste of non-crap SF readers? Which doesn't need justification unless you are buying into the whole mainstream attitude that the entire genre is crap. Besides, my own opinions of what is crap and what is not differ remarkably from those held by many of you. OK, I think we can all agree that Piers Anthony is crap and Alice Sheldon (for example) is most emphatically not. But where is the line drawn? I find Brian Aldiss unreadable, despite his reputation. On the other hand, I love Lois Bujold, although I can see valid arguments for viewing the Vorkosigan series as fluff. On the other hand, they are clearly all science fiction, or whatever abbreviation you choose to use. I guess I simply feel that fans should be defending the genre as a whole from the outside, and saving discussions about quality for internal debates. Which, it seems to me, was what Sturgeon was saying. (Hmm...just realised that this argument is directly contradictory to some statements I made about Magic Realism vs Fantasy some months ago, so a tip of the hat to Todd, since he seems to have convinced me I was wrong - not an easy thing to do ;) Kate. >From: Neil Rest >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Intro >Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:17:50 -0600 > >At 08:27 AM 3/2/01 -0600, "Michael J. Lowrey" wrote: > > >> Neil Rest wrote: > >> >Well, in the society of science fiction fans, "sci fi" is usually >shuddered > >> >at. That's the name for The Eggplant that Ate Chicago, not the >literature > >> >of grand ideas and scope we love so much. "Science fiction" and "sf" >are > >> >fine, but the only fan who can get away with "sci fi" is Forry >Ackerman, > >> >who invented it, and is sui generis anyway. > >> > >> What's wrong with The Eggplant that Ate Chicago? Sounds like an idea of > >> fairly grand scope to me. > >> > >> In the society of science fiction academics, this kind of ghettoising >into > >> Good Art SF and Bad Pulp SF is frowned upon as a reflection of the > >> ghettoising of the entire science fiction genre by the forces of >mainstream > >> Literature. > > > >Far be it from an un-degreed peasant like me to defend the > >self-annointed "mainstream"; but Neil is pointing out that here in the > >ghetto, among those of us wonks, geeks and nerds who were > >scientifictional when sf wasn't cool, we have chosen (by and large) to > >use THAT term only for crap. > > > >Now, crap is crap, not because of High Art vs. PopCult or low-brow vs. > >high-brow distinctions, but because it is crap. Crap comes in little > >university-subsidized magazines that "pay" only in contributors' copies, > >as well as in the pulps and their successors. Sturgeon's Law still > >applies. > > > >Thanks. > >I guess I should have been clearer that I was addressing the >anthropologist-hat wearing aspect. > >Though it's an amusing coincidence that I'm so far behind because of having >spent a long weekend in San Francisco for potlatch, whose Book of Honor was >_Thunder and Roses_, in the series of the complete short stories of >Theodore Sturgeon. >It was Sturgeon who replied, in response to the assertion that "90% of >science ficiton is crap," "90% of everything is crap," which [my] fandom >knows as Sturgeon's Law. > > >Neil > >-- >NeilRest@enteract.com > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 17:47:53 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Sci-fi In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:49 PM 3/4/01 -0000, Kate Dall wrote: >I agree. Crap is crap. Why does SF crap need a separate genre name, if it is >not part of some attempt to justify the intelligence and taste of non-crap >SF readers? Which doesn't need justification unless you are buying into the >whole mainstream attitude that the entire genre is crap. > When the overwhelming preponderance of critics, taste-makers, and mass-market media conflate the entire field with its admittedly significant fraction of crap, the field's long-standing, long-suffering loyalists want very much to distinguish the field as a whole, especially including its best, from the detritus. If you were trying to encourage someone to read Tiptree, and they told you that they once saw a drive-in double feature about giant radioactive insects, complete with high-heeled blones turning their ankles, so they don't need any more exposure to that stuff, wouldn't you feel that the situation required you to make some additional distinctions?! Neil NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 00:09:39 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: Sci-fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Neil wrote: >When the overwhelming preponderance of critics, taste-makers, and >mass-market media conflate the entire field with its admittedly significant >fraction of crap, the field's long-standing, long-suffering loyalists want >very much to distinguish the field as a whole, especially including its >best, from the detritus. > >If you were trying to encourage someone to read Tiptree, and they told you >that they once saw a drive-in double feature about giant radioactive >insects, complete with high-heeled blones turning their ankles, so they >don't need any more exposure to that stuff, wouldn't you feel that the >situation required you to make some additional distinctions?! Sure. I'd say, don't judge an entire genre by one crap example. I'd say, Tiptree is a kick-ass feminist so it is unlikely that you will encounter any women whose only role is to repeat everything the computer says. I'd say, science fiction includes more than just monster movies. What I wouldn't say is that monster movies aren't science fiction, but part of some lesser genre called "sci-fi". If I did this I would feel complicit in the attitudes of the ignorant "preponderance of critics, taste-makers, and mass-market media" I was trying to get the prospective reader to ignore in the first place. I would also feel like I was betraying monster movies, which I'm quite fond of (admittedly, mainly for their humour value). I guess what I'm trying to say is that without pulp fiction, we wouldn't have _Pulp Fiction_. The great efforts of any genre are born from its pulp, they don't have a separate existence. Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:40:09 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Sci-fi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/4/2001 7:10:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << The great efforts of any genre are born from its pulp, they don't have a separate existence. >> Of course, which is why you read H. G. Wells in english courses. The line between fansaty and sci-fi and what most people call "literture" is so blurry anyway. I remember that my mother was constantly after me to read more "literture" and less fanasty/sci-fiction. And yet I eventually realized that Shakespeare is fanasty (at least a portion of his plays Tempest, Midsummer for example), as are Dickens, Collins, and many many others. Yet my mom (and my dad) would rather die then then attempt this. I'm just happy that the professor I had for my English Senior Semniar allowed me to write my paper on The Lord of the Rings. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:08:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chuck Munson Subject: Re: Sci-fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've been aware of Sturgeon's law for much of my adult life. I seem to recall first hearing about it in the early 80s, when I was in high school and still reading lots of SF. However, as a librarian and as a zine reviewer for Alternative Press Review, I've come to the conclusion that Sturgeon's law is elitist crap. I think if you take any genre of creative activity, be it zines, rap music, or SF, you will find that most of it is pretty good, a small portion really sucks, and a few examples will stand the rest of time. In other words, quality probably looks like a bell curve of some kind. In my humble opinion, stupid "laws" like Sturgeon's only serves to prop up the elitist and snobbish attitude that has kept many non-white guys from enjoying widespread popularity or appreciation. I'm willing to bet that most of you read SF other than Hugo and Nebula winners. I'm willing to bet that most of you enjoy most of the SF you read. Chuck0 Chuck Munson AAAS >>> kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM 03/04/01 05:49PM >>> I agree. Crap is crap. Why does SF crap need a separate genre name, if it is not part of some attempt to justify the intelligence and taste of non-crap SF readers? Which doesn't need justification unless you are buying into the whole mainstream attitude that the entire genre is crap. Besides, my own opinions of what is crap and what is not differ remarkably from those held by many of you. OK, I think we can all agree that Piers Anthony is crap and Alice Sheldon (for example) is most emphatically not. But where is the line drawn? I find Brian Aldiss unreadable, despite his reputation. On the other hand, I love Lois Bujold, although I can see valid arguments for viewing the Vorkosigan series as fluff. On the other hand, they are clearly all science fiction, or whatever abbreviation you choose to use. I guess I simply feel that fans should be defending the genre as a whole from the outside, and saving discussions about quality for internal debates. Which, it seems to me, was what Sturgeon was saying. (Hmm...just realised that this argument is directly contradictory to some statements I made about Magic Realism vs Fantasy some months ago, so a tip of the hat to Todd, since he seems to have convinced me I was wrong - not an easy thing to do ;) Kate. >From: Neil Rest >Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Intro >Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:17:50 -0600 > >At 08:27 AM 3/2/01 -0600, "Michael J. Lowrey" wrote: > > >> Neil Rest wrote: > >> >Well, in the society of science fiction fans, "sci fi" is usually >shuddered > >> >at. That's the name for The Eggplant that Ate Chicago, not the >literature > >> >of grand ideas and scope we love so much. "Science fiction" and "sf" >are > >> >fine, but the only fan who can get away with "sci fi" is Forry >Ackerman, > >> >who invented it, and is sui generis anyway. > >> > >> What's wrong with The Eggplant that Ate Chicago? Sounds like an idea of > >> fairly grand scope to me. > >> > >> In the society of science fiction academics, this kind of ghettoising >into > >> Good Art SF and Bad Pulp SF is frowned upon as a reflection of the > >> ghettoising of the entire science fiction genre by the forces of >mainstream > >> Literature. > > > >Far be it from an un-degreed peasant like me to defend the > >self-annointed "mainstream"; but Neil is pointing out that here in the > >ghetto, among those of us wonks, geeks and nerds who were > >scientifictional when sf wasn't cool, we have chosen (by and large) to > >use THAT term only for crap. > > > >Now, crap is crap, not because of High Art vs. PopCult or low-brow vs. > >high-brow distinctions, but because it is crap. Crap comes in little > >university-subsidized magazines that "pay" only in contributors' copies, > >as well as in the pulps and their successors. Sturgeon's Law still > >applies. > > > >Thanks. > >I guess I should have been clearer that I was addressing the >anthropologist-hat wearing aspect. > >Though it's an amusing coincidence that I'm so far behind because of having >spent a long weekend in San Francisco for potlatch, whose Book of Honor was >_Thunder and Roses_, in the series of the complete short stories of >Theodore Sturgeon. >It was Sturgeon who replied, in response to the assertion that "90% of >science ficiton is crap," "90% of everything is crap," which [my] fandom >knows as Sturgeon's Law. > > >Neil > >-- >NeilRest@enteract.com > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:06:03 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: "Sci-fi" and Sturgeon's Law: Dall, Munson, et alles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Wow. Well, Kate, may I suggest that it isn't the Neil Rests who first used "sci-fi" to describe (by definition) garbage, but the outsiders I was decrying? The 1970s Peter Prescott types, the majority of SATURDAY REVIEW's 1960s crowd, all of whom could only praise a single work of a Le Guin or a Stanislaw Lem, when even them, only to the extent that these were so different from the rest of "sci-fi" that they weren't really. (Related: Robert Conquest and/or Kingsley Amis's couplet from their anthology series SPECTRUM: "'SF's no good,' they bellow till we're deaf/'And if it's good, then it's not SF!'"). It's a bit like calling a Friend a Quaker, back in the days before the Society took on the insult as an informal second label (the Methodists, of course, turned the insult completely around and adopted it as their primary label). Perhaps the Ackermoniker will triumph; perhaps it already has. But I will always prefer "sf" to skiffy. And, Chuck, what I believe Sturgeon meant was, again, that sf was always being judged by its bad AND MEDIOCRE examples (as Kate suggests); sure, nine tenths of sf was either bad or mediocre, but 90% of everything comparable was likewise. Mediocrity can be fun, and can even win awards quite easily, but it doesn't further the art nor human self-understanding, and yes everyone (including Sturgeon) gets to decide for herself what goes where in the percentages, including whether the percentages need adjusting. Glad to see you playing the PC card against Sturgeon, Chuck, who more than essentially any other major of sf writer of his generation, least deserves such fumfuh. Todd -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Munson [mailto:cmunson@AAAS.ORG] I've been aware of Sturgeon's law for much of my adult life. I seem to recall first hearing about it in the early 80s, when I was in high school and still reading lots of SF. However, as a librarian and as a zine reviewer for Alternative Press Review, I've come to the conclusion that Sturgeon's law is elitist crap. I think if you take any genre of creative activity, be it zines, rap music, or SF, you will find that most of it is pretty good, a small portion really sucks, and a few examples will stand the rest of time. In other words, quality probably looks like a bell curve of some kind. In my humble opinion, stupid "laws" like Sturgeon's only serves to prop up the elitist and snobbish attitude that has kept many non-white guys from enjoying widespread popularity or appreciation. I'm willing to bet that most of you read SF other than Hugo and Nebula winners. I'm willing to bet that most of you enjoy most of the SF you read. Chuck0 Chuck Munson AAAS >>> kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM 03/04/01 05:49PM >>> I agree. Crap is crap. Why does SF crap need a separate genre name, if it is not part of some attempt to justify the intelligence and taste of non-crap SF readers? Which doesn't need justification unless you are buying into the whole mainstream attitude that the entire genre is crap. Besides, my own opinions of what is crap and what is not differ remarkably from those held by many of you. OK, I think we can all agree that Piers Anthony is crap and Alice Sheldon (for example) is most emphatically not. But where is the line drawn? I find Brian Aldiss unreadable, despite his reputation. On the other hand, I love Lois Bujold, although I can see valid arguments for viewing the Vorkosigan series as fluff. On the other hand, they are clearly all science fiction, or whatever abbreviation you choose to use. I guess I simply feel that fans should be defending the genre as a whole from the outside, and saving discussions about quality for internal debates. Which, it seems to me, was what Sturgeon was saying. (Hmm...just realised that this argument is directly contradictory to some statements I made about Magic Realism vs Fantasy some months ago, so a tip of the hat to Todd, since he seems to have convinced me I was wrong - not an easy thing to do ;) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:35:15 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Skiffy and other pulp: Dall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thing is, there was good pulp fiction and bad pulp fiction. It was convenient for "insiders" to refer to the kind of thing All SF was being blamed for, the ZONTARs, to use "sci-fi" to label that...insiders have been known to use "sci-fi" to label things that "outsiders" did that was their (sad) attempt at sf. Including such novels as J. Susann's YARGO. But, I will agree that bad "outsider" sf remains sf. But it can also be "sci-fi," while, for me, good sf isn't. TM -----Original Message----- From: Kate Dall [mailto:kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM] Neil wrote: >When the overwhelming preponderance of critics, taste-makers, and >mass-market media conflate the entire field with its admittedly significant >fraction of crap, the field's long-standing, long-suffering loyalists want >very much to distinguish the field as a whole, especially including its >best, from the detritus. > >If you were trying to encourage someone to read Tiptree, and they told you >that they once saw a drive-in double feature about giant radioactive >insects, complete with high-heeled blones turning their ankles, so they >don't need any more exposure to that stuff, wouldn't you feel that the >situation required you to make some additional distinctions?! Sure. I'd say, don't judge an entire genre by one crap example. I'd say, Tiptree is a kick-ass feminist so it is unlikely that you will encounter any women whose only role is to repeat everything the computer says. I'd say, science fiction includes more than just monster movies. What I wouldn't say is that monster movies aren't science fiction, but part of some lesser genre called "sci-fi". If I did this I would feel complicit in the attitudes of the ignorant "preponderance of critics, taste-makers, and mass-market media" I was trying to get the prospective reader to ignore in the first place. I would also feel like I was betraying monster movies, which I'm quite fond of (admittedly, mainly for their humour value). I guess what I'm trying to say is that without pulp fiction, we wouldn't have _Pulp Fiction_. The great efforts of any genre are born from its pulp, they don't have a separate existence. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:22:09 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: "Sci-fi" and Sturgeon's Law: Dall, Munson, et alles In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:06 PM 3/5/01 -0600, Todd Mason wrote: >Wow. Well, Kate, may I suggest that it isn't the Neil Rests who first used >"sci-fi" to describe (by definition) garbage, but the outsiders I was >decrying? The 1970s Peter Prescott types, the majority of SATURDAY REVIEW's >1960s crowd, all of whom could only praise a single work of a Le Guin or a >Stanislaw Lem, when even them, only to the extent that these were so >different from the rest of "sci-fi" that they weren't really. (Related: >Robert Conquest and/or Kingsley Amis's couplet from their anthology series >SPECTRUM: "'SF's no good,' they bellow till we're deaf/'And if it's good, >then it's not SF!'"). > My personal favorite example is John Hersey. He wrote science fiction and fantasy along with everything else, but he's "good", so _The Child Buyer_, where the military-industrial complex is buying genius ten-year-olds to wire them into machines isn't science fiction, and _White Lotus_, which transposes the American/African experience of slavery to Chinese/American isn't sf either, and _Too Far to Walk_, with a college student making a deal with the devil isn't fantasy . . . Though to be fair, I think he's undervalued in fandom, too. Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:17:40 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Sci-fi In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:08 PM 3/5/01 -0500, Chuck Munson wrote: >I've been aware of Sturgeon's law for much of my adult life. I seem to recall first hearing about it in the early 80s, when I was in high school and still reading lots of SF. > >However, as a librarian and as a zine reviewer for Alternative Press Review, I've come to the conclusion that Sturgeon's law is elitist crap. I think if you take any genre of creative activity, be it zines, rap music, or SF, you will find that most of it is pretty good, a small portion really sucks, and a few examples will stand the rest of time. > >In other words, quality probably looks like a bell curve of some kind. > >In my humble opinion, stupid "laws" like Sturgeon's only serves to prop up the elitist and snobbish attitude that has kept many non-white guys from enjoying widespread popularity or appreciation. I'm willing to bet that most of you read SF other than Hugo and Nebula winners. I'm willing to bet that most of you enjoy most of the SF you read. > Lighten up, and think a little more clearly. The original epigram was sufficiently accurate, and more than cure enough, in context. It's a humorous idiom to call it a "law". No one (I know of!) is proclaiming it anything like gravity. And if you'd spent your childhood and adolescence and decades of adulthood putting up with incredulity that you read "that Buck Rogers stuff", your patience might be a little thinner, and your emphasis on distinctions a little sharper. Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 03:04:59 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: "Sci-fi" and Sturgeon's Law: Dall, Munson, et alles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Todd Mason wrote: >Wow. Well, Kate, may I suggest that it isn't the Neil Rests who first used >"sci-fi" to describe (by definition) garbage, but the outsiders I was >decrying? Yes, Todd, I know. That's what I said. I was _agreeing_ with you. This time, at least ;) My point was that Neil, and anyone else who uses sci-fi as a shorthand term for crap, is buying into this condescending outsider attitude. If one is buying into an attitude it would have to exist first, no? Personally, I don't use the term sci-fi at all, because I know such connotations exist. When other people use it, I treat it as a synonyn for science fiction and defend the quality of the entire genre. Is that OK with you all? Kate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:04:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chuck Munson Subject: Re: Sci-fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> neilrest@ENTERACT.COM 03/05/01 09:17PM >>> At 01:08 PM 3/5/01 -0500, Chuck Munson wrote: >>Lighten up, and think a little more clearly. >>The original epigram was sufficiently accurate, and more than cure enough, in context. It's a humorous idiom to call it a "law". I'm thinking clearly and I'm light enough thank you. I understand that it is a humorous epigram, but the fact that it is still being repeated so many years later is a sign that more then a few people take it seriously. It's just a stupid "law." That's all I am saying. Sturgeon was never a very good writer either. I guess he should have applied his law to himself. ;-) Chuck0 Chuck Munson AAAS -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:17:11 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Sturgeon a bad writer: Munson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" WOW, Chuck. No arguing taste, but Samuel Delany, Kurt Vonnegut, Damon Knight, Ray Bradbury, Judith Merril, Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, Harlan Ellison, Joanna Russ, and I strenuously disagree with you. What exactly have you read by Sturgeon? And who, in contradistinction, IS any good? -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Munson [mailto:cmunson@AAAS.ORG] Sturgeon was never a very good writer either. I guess he should have applied his law to himself. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:31:44 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Skiffy, probably enough: after Dall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ah, but Neil would only be buying into the condescension if he thought SILENT RUNNING indicative of the whole field. However, those who use "sci-fi" to mean SPACE 1999 do have an obligation to point out that "sci-fi" used that way is Not inclusive of all sf. And, if anyone needs it, they have my permission to use the word skiffy how they want to...I'll simply be gritting my teeth. And windily explaining when I choose and have the chance! TM -----Original Message----- From: Kate Dall [mailto:kate_dall@HOTMAIL.COM] Todd Mason wrote: >Wow. Well, Kate, may I suggest that it isn't the Neil Rests who first used >"sci-fi" to describe (by definition) garbage, but the outsiders I was >decrying? Yes, Todd, I know. That's what I said. I was _agreeing_ with you. This time, at least ;) My point was that Neil, and anyone else who uses sci-fi as a shorthand term for crap, is buying into this condescending outsider attitude. If one is buying into an attitude it would have to exist first, no? Personally, I don't use the term sci-fi at all, because I know such connotations exist. When other people use it, I treat it as a synonyn for science fiction and defend the quality of the entire genre. Is that OK with you all? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:31:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chuck Munson Subject: Re: Sturgeon a bad writer: Munson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nothing that sticks out in my mind. I'm sure I read more than a coupl of his books, since I read just about every SF book I could get my hands on when I was a teenager. Who's good? Ursula Le Guin (although her stuff is way too short) Kurt Vonnegut Ray Bradbury Octavia Butler (the only writer to ever give me a nightmare after reading her book) Harlan Ellison Neal Stephenson Bruce Sterling Brad Denton Joan Slonczewski Arthur C. Clarke Isaac Asimov Chuck0 Chuck Munson AAAS >>> Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM 03/06/01 10:17AM >>> WOW, Chuck. No arguing taste, but Samuel Delany, Kurt Vonnegut, Damon Knight, Ray Bradbury, Judith Merril, Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, Harlan Ellison, Joanna Russ, and I strenuously disagree with you. What exactly have you read by Sturgeon? And who, in contradistinction, IS any good? -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Munson [mailto:cmunson@AAAS.ORG] Sturgeon was never a very good writer either. I guess he should have applied his law to himself. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:49:25 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Sturgeon among the good writers: Munson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Then perhaps it's time to revisit Sturgeon, Chuck--the latest volume of the Collected Short Stories is an excellent place to start; so's MORE THAN HUMAN. And try Le Guin's ALWAYS COMING HOME. TM -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Munson [mailto:cmunson@AAAS.ORG] Nothing that sticks out in my mind. I'm sure I read more than a coupl of his books, since I read just about every SF book I could get my hands on when I was a teenager. Who's good? Ursula Le Guin (although her stuff is way too short) Kurt Vonnegut Ray Bradbury Octavia Butler (the only writer to ever give me a nightmare after reading her book) Harlan Ellison Neal Stephenson Bruce Sterling Brad Denton Joan Slonczewski Arthur C. Clarke Isaac Asimov Chuck0 Chuck Munson AAAS >>> Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM 03/06/01 10:17AM >>> WOW, Chuck. No arguing taste, but Samuel Delany, Kurt Vonnegut, Damon Knight, Ray Bradbury, Judith Merril, Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, Harlan Ellison, Joanna Russ, and I strenuously disagree with you. What exactly have you read by Sturgeon? And who, in contradistinction, IS any good? -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Munson [mailto:cmunson@AAAS.ORG] Sturgeon was never a very good writer either. I guess he should have applied his law to himself. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:00:40 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chuck Munson Subject: Re: Sturgeon among the good writers: Munson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the suggestions, but I don't have the time to read the SF books that are already piled up at home. I'm also not looking for a longer Le Guin book; my comment was merely a criticism of her writing. I really enjoyed "Four Ways to Forgiveness," but the damn thing was way to short. Chuck0 Chuck Munson AAAS >>> Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM 03/06/01 10:49AM >>> Then perhaps it's time to revisit Sturgeon, Chuck--the latest volume of the Collected Short Stories is an excellent place to start; so's MORE THAN HUMAN. And try Le Guin's ALWAYS COMING HOME. TM -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Munson [mailto:cmunson@AAAS.ORG] Nothing that sticks out in my mind. I'm sure I read more than a coupl of his books, since I read just about every SF book I could get my hands on when I was a teenager. Who's good? Ursula Le Guin (although her stuff is way too short) Kurt Vonnegut Ray Bradbury Octavia Butler (the only writer to ever give me a nightmare after reading her book) Harlan Ellison Neal Stephenson Bruce Sterling Brad Denton Joan Slonczewski Arthur C. Clarke Isaac Asimov Chuck0 Chuck Munson AAAS >>> Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM 03/06/01 10:17AM >>> WOW, Chuck. No arguing taste, but Samuel Delany, Kurt Vonnegut, Damon Knight, Ray Bradbury, Judith Merril, Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, Harlan Ellison, Joanna Russ, and I strenuously disagree with you. What exactly have you read by Sturgeon? And who, in contradistinction, IS any good? -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Munson [mailto:cmunson@AAAS.ORG] Sturgeon was never a very good writer either. I guess he should have applied his law to himself. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:52:36 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: FW: Catherine Asaro on "sci-fi" vs. sf/science fiction (and "bodi ce-ripper" vs. romance fiction) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" She's temporarily unable to post to FSFFU for unknown reasons: -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Asaro [mailto:asaro@sff.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 12:47 PM To: Todd Mason > From: Todd Mason > Subject: The whole skiffy thing > And, frankly, it sounds kidsy. And while too much sf may be immature, as > has been noted in other fora if some Ursula LeGuin is "sci-fi," doesn't that > mean that her contemporary-mimetic fiction should be "li-fi" or "mi-fi"? > Would Nicola Griffith's crime fiction be "cri-fi" or "my-fi"? Would > Catherine Asaro's romantic sf be as much "ro-fi" as "sci-fi" ("heaving > sigh-fi")? That would make the telepaths in my books ... sighons. I tried to send this response to the listserv, but it isn't accepting any of my posts for some reason. Could you put this up? It might help explain why sci-fi is being used so much now. In my experience, even when we ask editors or interviewers not to change our words to sci-fi, they still do it. I've had interviews in first-person tense where they changed most of my references to science fiction and SF to "sci-fi." Apparently it saves space over science fiction and is considered more easily recognizable than SF. It's frustrating. For one article I specifically asked the editor =not= to make that change. And he agreed. But when the piece came out, there it was -- sci-fi. Although I resist the word sci-fi, I don't mean to denigrate those old movies; they could be great fun! :-) Romance has had the same problem with "bodice-ripper," but they have had much more success in laying that term aside. I suspect it is because "bodice-ripper" has an obvious perjorative connotation whereas sci-fi doesn't. -- Best regards Catherine Asaro http://www.sff.net/people/asaro/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:58:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: scifi, sf, and science fiction Folks, I am just disgusted to discover that there are some people think of the short term scifi to mean only the dross. I mean how petty can you get! I have read and enjoyed science fiction as long as Ihave been able to read and never before did I ever dream that such a petty distinction would be made. Such snobbery about terms is actually harmful. I write a literary form of science fiction and not being one of the "in" fans who is in the know about what the "correct" term is, I have used the term scifi to describe what my web pages offer. No wonder sales at my own site have been poor while everyone else who offers my work has good sales. Those readers in the mood for some relaxing no-brainer adventures would not be happy to find the stuff I write. Well, it seems I have to rework my web page and contact search engines. Thanks a heap. Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:22:16 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: scifi, sf, and science fiction: Cynthia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cynthia, I think this is what's called "blaming the victim." Otherwise, we're here to help! TM -----Original Message----- From: Cynthia [mailto:cynthea@PRODIGY.NET] Folks, I am just disgusted to discover that there are some people think of the short term scifi to mean only the dross. I mean how petty can you get! I have read and enjoyed science fiction as long as Ihave been able to read and never before did I ever dream that such a petty distinction would be made. Such snobbery about terms is actually harmful. I write a literary form of science fiction and not being one of the "in" fans who is in the know about what the "correct" term is, I have used the term scifi to describe what my web pages offer. No wonder sales at my own site have been poor while everyone else who offers my work has good sales. Those readers in the mood for some relaxing no-brainer adventures would not be happy to find the stuff I write. Well, it seems I have to rework my web page and contact search engines. Thanks a heap. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:37:30 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Joyce Jones Subject: Mind's Eye Fiction I found a good site for stories with some pretty interesting science fiction, Mind's Eye Fiction at: http://tale.com/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:02:39 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Nebula final ballot (pardon for duplication) courtesy Mike Resnic k... Comments: To: "IsaacL@yahoogroups.com" , "fictionmags@yahoogroups.com" , "horror@listserv.indiana.edu" , "sciencefiction-l@listserv.indiana.edu" , "ttalkback@yahoogroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" via the LOC SF-Lit list: Y2K Final Nebula Ballot Novels: Darwin's Radio, Greg Bear (Ballantine Del Rey, Sep99) A Civil Campaign, Lois McMaster Bujold (Baen, Aug99) Midnight Robber, Nalo Hopkinson (Warner Aspect, Mar00) Crescent City Rhapsody, Kathleen Ann Goonan (Avon Eos, Mar00) Infinity Beach, Jack McDevitt (HarperPrism, Feb00) Forests of the Heart, Charles de Lint (Tor, Jun00) Novellas: Fortitude, Andy Duncan (Realms of Fantasy, Jun99 ) Ninety Percent of Everything, Jonathan Lethem, James Patrick Kelly, & John Kessel (F&SF, Sep99) Hunting the Snark, Mike Resnick (Asimov's, Dec99) Crocodile Rock, Lucius Shepard (F&SF, Oct/Nov99) Argonautica, Walter Jon Williams (Asimov's, Oct/Nov99) Goddesses, Linda Nagata (Sci Fiction/SciFi.com, July 5, 2000) Novelettes: Daddy's World, Walter Jon Williams (Not of Woman Born, Constance Ash, Ed., Roc, Mar99) Stellar Harvest, Eleanor Arnason (Asimov's, Apr99) A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows, Gardner Dozois (Asimov's, Oct/Nov99) How the Highland People Came To Be, Bruce Holland Rogers (Realms of Fantasy, Aug99) A Day's Work On the Moon, Mike Moscoe (Analog, Jul/Aug00) Generation Gap, Stanley Schmidt (Artemis Magazine #1, Spring 2000 issue) Jack Daw's Pack, Greer Gilman (Century 5, Winter 2000) Short Stories: macs, Terry Bisson (F&SF, Oct/Nov99) Scherzo With Tyrannosaur, Michael Swanwick (Asimov's, Jul99) You Wandered Off Like a Foolish Child To Break Your Heart and Mine, Pat York (Silver Birch, Blood Moon, Ellen Datlow & Terri Windling, Ed., Avon, Mar99) The Golem, Severna Park (Black Heart, Ivory Bones, Ellen Datlow & Terri Windling, Eds., Avon, Mar00) The Fantasy Writer's Assistant, Jeffrey Ford (F&SF, Feb00) Flying Over Water, Ellen Klages (Lady Churchill's Rosebud Wristlet, No. 7, October 2000) Scripts: Galaxy Quest, David Howard and Robert Gordon (Dreamworks SKG, Dec99) Being John Malkovich, Charlie Kaufman (Propaganda Films, Oct99) The Green Mile; Frank Darabont, from the novel by Stephen King (Castle Rock/Warner Bros, Dec99) Dogma, Kevin Smith (View Askew Productions, Nov99) Princess Mononoke, Hayao Miyazaki and Neil Gaiman (Miramax Films/Studio Ghibli, Nov99 ) Unbreakable, M. Night Shyamalan (Touchstone Pictures, November 2000) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:45:07 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: [*FSF-L*] BDG: Conqueror's Child -- Religion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not sure about the correct protocol for this, but since this post will be off-topic I've transferred it over to the other list (is this the right thing to do?) Janice E. Dawley wrote <> Actually, on a world-wide basis, very few other industrialised countries put anything like the same emphasis on religion as the US. I'm a bit hesitant to quote the statistics since I have no idea whether they were compiled in the same way, but I have read that 40% of US citizens attend church regularly, whereas the figure n the UK is under 1.5%. On the last survey in the UK, 35% of those asked actively described themselves as atheists (which combined with the statistic above means they are far and away the biggest group practising their faith in the UK). I also suspect that most of the remaining 65% are very apathetic about religion. Of those that do have any sense of spirituality a lot fall into the same group as David Beckham - Mr. Beckham is a UK footballer. After the recent birth of his son he was quoted as saying something along the lines of " We want to have him baptised, but we we aren't sure into which religion" Jane -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.