From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 15:51:33 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:48:00 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0103B" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:20:27 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cera Kruger Subject: story ID, pretty please? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sometime in the last 6 years I read a short story in a sf/fantasy anthology. The main character of the short story was a governess/teacher/nanny of some sort (female), who was looking after a group of kids. The kids were running around the grounds of the place in which they lived (a manor house, a school?), and were bringing her things that they had found, many of which were old and strange. She was pondering this, and discussing it (or maybe thinking of discussing it) with a man (the vicar?) who was coming over for tea. There was a quote (from the Bible?) about "At the end of days all lost things will be found again." She thought over the quote, and the story ended with the children bringing her the sword (cup? It was either Excalibur or the Grail) they'd found in a nearby river. Tonally, the story felt like an English village story -- very muted, very everyday. Can anyone place this? My memory of the details is extremely shaky, so even wild guesses would be much appreciated it. It was a very powerful story and I'd love to find it again. -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:45:06 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laurel Lamme Subject: Re: story ID, pretty please? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This story sounds to me like "Lost and Found," by Connie Willis, which I read in her anthology _Fire Watch_. However, I would consider the male teacher, Finney, as the main character, and he discusses most of the finds with a female teacher, not a vicar. They do find the Holy Grail at the end. Hope this helps! Laurel Cera Kruger wrote: > > Sometime in the last 6 years I read a short story in a sf/fantasy > anthology. The main character of the short story was a > governess/teacher/nanny of some sort (female), who was looking after a > group of kids. The kids were running around the grounds of the place > in which they lived (a manor house, a school?), and were bringing her > things that they had found, many of which were old and strange. She > was pondering this, and discussing it (or maybe thinking of discussing > it) with a man (the vicar?) who was coming over for tea. There was a > quote (from the Bible?) about "At the end of days all lost things will > be found again." She thought over the quote, and the story ended with > the children bringing her the sword (cup? It was either Excalibur or > the Grail) they'd found in a nearby river. > > Tonally, the story felt like an English village story -- very muted, > very everyday. > > Can anyone place this? My memory of the details is extremely shaky, so > even wild guesses would be much appreciated it. It was a very powerful > story and I'd love to find it again. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:15:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Harry Potter, Bedazlled, and Cinderella's sisters. Hi all, I've read and enjoyed all the Harry Potter books, and there are many feminst friendly things about them. Hermoine (or however you spell it) is smart, brave and able. Some of the female teachers are too. (Now I'll sound like a crank again :) But my beef are these: The protagonist is a boy when the author has a daughter. I dunno, it strikes me that if one has a daughter one ought to celebrate girls and women as opposed to boys and men. Harry, the hero, is not as smart as Hermoine, not as diligent as Hermoine, not as good at spells as Hermoine, no more braze than Hermoine, and yet is exalted because he is good at a *sport.* Hermoine excells at all the really important things and yet playing a sport and being a so-so student is presented as preferable. That bothers me. On to Bedazzled. I just rented the movie and it is really very good. What I find interesting is that the usual Christian perspective of the bad Devil trying nefarioulsy to trick the hero out of his soul, has been nicely altered to a really rather Pagan perspective. The Devil is a powerful female who tricks the hero into knowing himself better and teaching him to direct his energies toward a true, selfless caring for another human being. The Devil is portrayed ultimately as a balancing complement to the "God" representative. The "God' representative tells the hero that souls can't be bought because are of God and souls are in all things uniting them. Totally Pagan perspecitive that! Next Cinderella's sisters. I am reading this really good book which I can't quite remember the name of. (Miami libraries are hopeless, so often I just go to the bookstore and just read a book there.) It is called something like The Curse of the Ugly Something or Others. The language is elegant and it is about women. I haven't finished it yet, so don't tell me how it ends. So far, it is very good. Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:48:13 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Harry Potter, Bedazlled, and Cinderella's sisters. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia wrote: > I've read and enjoyed all the Harry Potter books, and there are many feminst > friendly things about them. Hermoine (or however you spell it) is smart, > brave and able. Some of the female teachers are too. > > (Now I'll sound like a crank again :) But my beef are these: > The protagonist is a boy when the author has a daughter. I dunno, it strikes > me that if one has a daughter one ought to celebrate girls and women as > opposed to boys and men. > > Harry, the hero, is not as smart as Hermoine, not as diligent as Hermoine, > not as good at spells as Hermoine, no more brave than Hermoine, and yet is > exalted because he is good at a *sport.* Hermoine excells at all the really > important things and yet playing a sport and being a so-so student is > presented as preferable. That bothers me. As the parent of an intelligent daughter, the part that bothers me most about Hermione's portrayal is the cliche 'prissy girl who keeps to all the silly rules' aspect. This is a stereotypical role of smart girls in co-ed schools (and to some extent smart boys, who are deemed less masculine because of it). Real Boys are 'supposed' to be less studious and more Chaotic; smart girls are obnoxiously and servilely Lawful, and will even fink on those who are not. -- Michael J. Lowrey Cultures and Communities Program Curtin Hall 284 University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee P.O. Box 413 Milwaukee, WI 53201-0413 414.229.5960 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:41:19 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Chris Shaffer Subject: Re: Harry Potter, Bedazlled, and Cinderella's sisters. In-Reply-To: <001301c0ab74$2d76f2a0$c9b8ffd1@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 3/12/2001 10:15 PM, you wrote: >Next Cinderella's sisters. I am reading this really good book which I can't >quite remember the name of. (Miami libraries are hopeless, so often I just >go to the bookstore and just read a book there.) It is called something >like The Curse of the Ugly Something or Others. The language is elegant and >it is about women. I haven't finished it yet, so don't tell me how it ends. >So far, it is very good. The book is _Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister_ (ISBN 0060987529), by Gregory Maguire. The Book Discussion Group (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/) recently discussed _Wicked : The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West_ (ISBN 0060987103) by the same author. ----- program (pro'-gram) [n] A magic spell cast over a computer allowing it to turn one's input into error messages. Chris Shaffer http://www.uic.edu/~shaffer/ chris@bsinc.net AIM:ChrisShaff -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:10:46 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Rowling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia: This is off the top of my memory, and not verbatim, but IIRC J.K. Rowling said that a) she chose a male protagonist in the belief boys and girls would both read about a boy, but boys would not be likely to read about a girl b) Hermoine is based pretty much on what Rowling herself was like as a child c) the books are told in third person limited, so a portion of Harry's positive traits and Hermoine's negative ones come from how Harry himself views them Hope this was informative, Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:46:57 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cera Kruger Subject: Re: story ID, pretty please? In-Reply-To: <3AA843B2.9E7A7DAA@ufl.edu> from "Laurel Lamme" at Mar 08, 2001 09:45:06 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laurel Lamme writes: > >This story sounds to me like "Lost and Found," by Connie Willis, >which I read in her anthology _Fire Watch_. However, I would >consider the male teacher, Finney, as the main character, and he >discusses most of the finds with a female teacher, not a vicar. >They do find the Holy Grail at the end. Hope this helps! >Laurel I'm almost positive that's it, as I remember the friend in question giving me her copy of _Fire Watch_. I'm going to hit the library tomorrow and check it out. Thanks! -- Cera -- Cera Kruger -++- diony@idiom.com -+- http://www.requiem.com -++- SFLAaE/BS "And it's alright if you hate that way / hate me cause I'm different / hate me cause I'm gay / Truth of the matter come around one day / so it's alright." -- Emily Saliers (Indigo Girls' _Shaming of the Sun_) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:28:20 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Harry Potter, Bedazlled, and Cinderella's sisters. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/12/2001 11:29:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, cynthea@PRODIGY.NET writes: << The protagonist is a boy when the author has a daughter. I dunno, it strikes me that if one has a daughter one ought to celebrate girls and women as opposed to boys and men. Harry, the hero, is not as smart as Hermoine, not as diligent as Hermoine, not as good at spells as Hermoine, no more braze than Hermoine, and yet is exalted because he is good at a *sport.* Hermoine excells at all the really important things and yet playing a sport and being a so-so student is presented as preferable. That bothers me. >> The first beef seems right to me. But then that goes back to the chosen one usually being male (and as crass as it may sound it could be a better marketing device). Still hate it myself. As for the second. I wouldn't say that Rowling sees it that way. In fact in the fourth(?) book, Harry getting all the credit for saving everyone is what causes the rift between him and Ron. In society, generally speaking, more emphasis is placed on sports so why would the book be any different? Also, the books, while techniquely in 3rd person, focus on Harry. Harry likes sports (I'm not going to try to spell it), so the sport becomes important. We never see much interaction of Hermione with others outside of Harry and Ron, so we don't know if she is as celebrated. But at least Cerdic (the boy who isn't good at magic. I think I got the name wrong) sees Hermoine as a hero because she helps him. So the above reasons must be part of it. In addition, how many times in school was the brain considered more heroic then the sports hero? Did the chess club get a school wide party if they won (at city level)? Part of the reason why Rowling undoubtly does show that Ron and Hermoine have less fame then Harry is because of this. If she did show the chess club getting a party, how many readers would say it lacks the realism of the school? The charm of the books is that Hermoine, Ron, and even Harry, despite {or in spite of} his fame all are outsiders. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:44:11 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Harry Potter and gender fear: Ethier after Cynthia Comments: cc: "jffal@webtv.net" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Unfortunately, Christine's assessment of the usual value placed on intelligence versus physical prowess is correct in my experience...and I suspect in the experience of most who remember school timewast--, that is, halcyon days of learning and companionship. As for the commercial canniness of having a male protag to draw the boys and the girls to read...well, M. L'Engle managed to get more than a few male readers with A WRINKLE IN TIME and its sequels, but they did have a brother the protag cared for and had to rescue (and who was entirely too much the One, as well) (iirc). Likewise, I remember the quasi-underground way male gradeschoolers less independently antisocial than myself chose (felt forced) to conceal their reading of L.I. Wilder or CADDIE WOODLAWN. TM -----Original Message----- From: Christine Ethier In a message dated 3/12/2001 11:29:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, cynthea@PRODIGY.NET writes: << The protagonist is a boy when the author has a daughter. I dunno, it strikes me that if one has a daughter one ought to celebrate girls and women as opposed to boys and men. Harry, the hero, is not as smart as Hermoine, not as diligent as Hermoine, not as good at spells as Hermoine, no more braze than Hermoine, and yet is exalted because he is good at a *sport.* Hermoine excells at all the really important things and yet playing a sport and being a so-so student is presented as preferable. That bothers me. >> The first beef seems right to me. But then that goes back to the chosen one usually being male (and as crass as it may sound it could be a better marketing device). Still hate it myself. As for the second. I wouldn't say that Rowling sees it that way. In fact in the fourth(?) book, Harry getting all the credit for saving everyone is what causes the rift between him and Ron. In society, generally speaking, more emphasis is placed on sports so why would the book be any different? Also, the books, while techniquely in 3rd person, focus on Harry. Harry likes sports (I'm not going to try to spell it), so the sport becomes important. We never see much interaction of Hermione with others outside of Harry and Ron, so we don't know if she is as celebrated. But at least Cerdic (the boy who isn't good at magic. I think I got the name wrong) sees Hermoine as a hero because she helps him. So the above reasons must be part of it. In addition, how many times in school was the brain considered more heroic then the sports hero? Did the chess club get a school wide party if they won (at city level)? Part of the reason why Rowling undoubtly does show that Ron and Hermoine have less fame then Harry is because of this. If she did show the chess club getting a party, how many readers would say it lacks the realism of the school? The charm of the books is that Hermoine, Ron, and even Harry, despite {or in spite of} his fame all are outsiders. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:20:50 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Harry Potter and gender fear: Ethier after Cynthia In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:44 PM 3/13/01 -0600, Todd Mason wrote: > >As for the commercial canniness of having a male protag to draw the boys and >the girls to read...well, M. L'Engle managed to get more than a few male >readers with A WRINKLE IN TIME and its sequels, but they did have a brother >the protag cared for and had to rescue (and who was entirely too much the >One, as well) (iirc). Likewise, I remember the quasi-underground way male >gradeschoolers less independently antisocial than myself chose (felt forced) >to conceal their reading of L.I. Wilder or CADDIE WOODLAWN. TM > I'm reminded of Heinlein's _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_, where the girl, who would be called a geek girl today, rescues the boy, cause she's smarter. He did something similar, though subtler, in the last sequence of _Citizen of the Galaxy_, too. Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:18:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Misha Bernard Subject: Re: Harry Potter, emphasis on sport [quidditch] In-Reply-To: <54.1147e1a6.27e02334@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Considering the place of sport- and it's not all sports that the reader sees, just quidditch _the_ wizarding sport- I think the emphasis on it is especially because of Harry's attachment to it and as _the_ particular thing at which he excells at in school. Hermoine on the other hand (like Harry) never experienced either broomsticks or quidditch (which requires them) before Hogwarts because she is from the muggle world. Thus, we don't usually see her participating in even the hero-worship Ron has for quidditch players (esp in the 4th book). However, sports are not only a boys game, if anyone recalls that women are part of the quidditch teams, too, and in fact the girl that Harry has a crush on is the seeker (I think, and the same position Harry plays) on the Ravensclaw (another house) team. So, it's really the position of the narrative focusing on Harry and then on Ron and Hermoine more than anyone else IMO. misha On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Christine Ethier wrote: > In a message dated 3/12/2001 11:29:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cynthea@PRODIGY.NET writes: > > Harry, the hero, is not as smart as Hermoine, not as diligent as Hermoine, > not as good at spells as Hermoine, no more braze than Hermoine, and yet is > exalted because he is good at a *sport.* Hermoine excells at all the really > important things and yet playing a sport and being a so-so student is > presented as preferable. That bothers me. > >> > > As for the second. I wouldn't say that Rowling sees it that way. In fact in > the fourth(?) book, Harry getting all the credit for saving everyone is what > causes the rift between him and Ron. In society, generally speaking, more > emphasis is placed on sports so why would the book be any different? Also, > the books, while techniquely in 3rd person, focus on Harry. Harry likes > sports (I'm not going to try to spell it), so the sport becomes important. > We never see much interaction of Hermione with others outside of Harry and > Ron, so we don't know if she is as celebrated. But at least Cerdic (the boy > who isn't good at magic. I think I got the name wrong) sees Hermoine as a > hero because she helps him. So the above reasons must be part of it. > In addition, how many times in school was the brain considered more > heroic then the sports hero? Did the chess club get a school wide party if > they won (at city level)? Part of the reason why Rowling undoubtly does show > that Ron and Hermoine have less fame then Harry is because of this. If she > did show the chess club getting a party, how many readers would say it lacks > the realism of the school? The charm of the books is that Hermoine, Ron, and > even Harry, despite {or in spite of} his fame all are outsiders. > > Chris Misha Bernard Cultural Studies PhD student mbernar1@gmu.edu George Mason University ------------------------- -mmmm! tastes like a scratch world! but it's Bishop Berkeley's Cosmo Mix!- Ursula K. Le Guin "World Making" (1981) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.