From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:02:15 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:48:07 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0107B" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 07:43:46 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Silent her, Goddesses, female aborticide and so on Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WEll, I finally finished SIlent Her, the short story recomended on this list some months ago. I *had* thought I was some way from the end- however I now realise I had just one installment to go. When I started reading it previously, I was very captivated by the story, and indeed I have thought of it many times since.... but I am rather disapointed at how it has turned out ie the very sudden ending... On the bright side, I read Linda nagata's Goddesses short story as well- (I think nominated for a Nebula... and a Tiptree?) Liked very much... thought perhaps not wildly original in terms of setting ie companies turning cleaning up past ecological-economical diesasters into a proftiable business, net-linking... reminded me of Egan's Chernobyl and a few others. I guess what made the story intersitnt to me were the underlying concepts ie... what will the results of the widepsread pratcie of killing female babies and eventually/ inevitably aborting female foetus be? i remember as a teenager reading sociology and also sf, and having conversations with my mother about what the results of an imbalance in the sexes are for a culture... I would read one example or cultural study/ prediction/ science fiction story, and be depressed by the info that a socirty in which women are numerous and men few leads to the women becoming valueless and the fewer men powerful/ sought after etc.... later on I would read some example of *men* becoming numerous and women rare- yet this seemed to somehow have the same effect! The men, being more numerous, would hae all the power etc, and perhaps some of the men would fill the socail void left by women themselves, creating a new underclass of men..... Anyway, I was rather startled and horrified to realise that, as far as I could see, everyone seems to predict, or only be able to imagine, that an imbalance in the sexes will inevitably result in an even lower position for women, whichever way the imabalance lies. I read somewhere recently- was it in Tepper's Fresco? I think so- the aliens, when asked what to dout the practice of female infanticide/ promoting a vastly disproprtionate birth of males- replied-'nothing- because if allowed to continue will assist to reduce the birth rate and overpopulation, and in essence, will provide its own solution.' Which is too harsh (for me).. As in Godesseses, technolpogy wil probably exist in the near future so that if a society wishes to give birth to only male babies, they can do so... I really wonder what the eventual resiult of that will be... it seems to me that although there will eventually be a dire lack of women, that will not in itself be enough to alter the position of women... the competition may become fiersc to obtain a wife- but will that mean it wil become mroe desirable to have daughters? I guess, as the position of women in rural India etc is fairly approximate to livestock, it will more be that the lack of marriageable women will improve their position, but *as* livestock- not allow their status to be upgraded to people btw.. Ill Made Mute is proving v' enjoyable and espcially original.... only just managed to properly 'get into it' as the only time I was reading it was in between falling itno bed and passing out... now that I laid aside some time to enjooy it properly, its great! Anwyway,a s usual hope that this made sense.... please take into account the 2-year-old asking me every 20 secs for 'more jump' and then launching herself of the sofa into my lap : ) Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 10:45:54 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dianne Kraft Subject: Guttentag & Secord: "Too Many Women" Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Couldn't help throwing in one of my favorite references as to the sex ratio question: The book above, written by a social psychologist & sociologist, went through historical records of all types (including fiction) and talk about the interplay of macro level phenomena, like sex ratio, to micro level phenomena, like attitudes towards premarital sex and fidelity within marriages. It's a very interesting book, as they try to keep in mind power structures operating all the while (with the basic sociological premise that those w/ power, i.e., men, are not likely to give it up or away) -- but they claim that sex ratio very much influences a society's view of romance and sex. The book is from 1983, but still worth a look. Dianne K. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 19:42:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gwen Veazey Subject: "A.I" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C107E6.0F2C0460" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C107E6.0F2C0460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm wondering if anyone knows where I might find Brian Aldiss' short = story, "Super Toys Last All Summer" which I understand is the short = story Spielberg's "A.I." was based on. What did you think of the movie? I liked this gently paced story for = the most part, especially the second act and the ending. However, as an = old feminist warhorse, I'm overly sensitive to anything which may be a = criticism of women's mothering behavior (actually both parents were = shown as inept, I thought.) Also, anything which smacks of an abortion = metaphor and is "anti." I thought the film was manipulative to the point of trying to totally = exhaust the audience emotionally - almost as extreme as "Steel = Magnolias." Your thoughts? Best, Gwen V. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C107E6.0F2C0460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm wondering if anyone knows where I might find = Brian Aldiss'=20 short story, "Super Toys Last All Summer" which I understand is the = short story=20 Spielberg's "A.I." was based on.
 
What did you think of the movie?  I liked this = gently=20 paced story for the most part, especially the second act and the = ending. =20 However, as an old feminist warhorse, I'm overly sensitive to anything = which may=20 be a criticism of women's mothering behavior (actually both parents were = shown=20 as inept, I thought.)  Also, anything which smacks of an abortion = metaphor=20 and is "anti."
 
I thought the film was manipulative to the point of = trying to=20 totally exhaust the audience emotionally - almost as extreme as "Steel=20 Magnolias."  Your thoughts?
 
Best,
Gwen V.
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C107E6.0F2C0460-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 16:24:07 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: eva Subject: Re: "A.I" Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <002501c10807$96dddc00$cd84cbcf@vistatech.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 8 Jul 2001, Gwen Veazey wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone knows where I might find Brian Aldiss' short > story, "Super Toys Last All Summer" which I understand is the short > story Spielberg's "A.I." was based on. you can read it online here: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/5.01/ffsupertoys_pr.html > What did you think of the movie? i thought it was pretty unbearable, and i went in with decent expectations. i agree that it was terribly emotionally manipulative. it seems like spielberg got so caught up in the whole boring pinocchio fairytale rehash that he failed to actually, oh, *address* any interesting ethical issues related to artificial intelligence. -> eva -- http://mrow.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 20:40:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gwen Veazey Subject: thanks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C107EE.35F760A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C107EE.35F760A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Eva, I liked Brian Aldiss' short story much better than the = movie. Best, Gwen ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C107EE.35F760A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Eva,  I liked Brian Aldiss' short story = much=20 better than the movie.
Best,
Gwen
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C107EE.35F760A0-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 22:36:53 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dianne Kraft Subject: Re: "A.I" Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I also went in to A.I. with expectations, whicht were not fulfilled. (I so want more science fiction movies that make me proud of the genre -- thank goodness there are so many good writers working right now... ) I think what it came down to, for me, was an Oedipal horror story. The only interesting characters weren't human, and women were all mommies or whores. This seems to me to be rather problematic. Dianne K. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 03:47:57 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: "A.I" Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > What did you think of the movie? I thought the acting excellent, and in the case of Jim the Jiggalo suberb, but much of the film dragged. > > expectations. i agree that it was terribly emotionally manipulative. it > seems like spielberg got so caught up in the whole boring pinocchio > fairytale rehash that he failed to actually, oh, *address* any interesting > ethical issues related to artificial intelligence. And I totatlly agree with this statement! Quite a superficial movie in this regard! Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 03:53:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: "A.I" Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think > what it came down to, for me, was an Oedipal horror story. The only > interesting characters weren't human, and women were all mommies or whores. > This seems to me to be rather problematic. > > Dianne K. I would add to this that David did not strike me as human or becomign human. He struck me as following a program that only wanted certain behaviors and could not develop in love. Jim the Jiggalo did seem to become human, but not David. David, if he were a real boy, would probably go to jail for stalking, or at least need a shrink for obsessive behavior. (Pardon my spelling tonight folks.) Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 02:31:24 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: "A.I" Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <002501c10807$96dddc00$cd84cbcf@vistatech.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1081F.3FAD1280" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1081F.3FAD1280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gwen, I understand that the story is being republushed to coincude with the reliease of AI... but It is also available on-line, in entirety, at the following URL http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/5.01/ffsupertoys_pr.html -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Gwen Veazey Sent: Monday, 9 July 2001 9:42 AM To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] "A.I" I'm wondering if anyone knows where I might find Brian Aldiss' short story, "Super Toys Last All Summer" which I understand is the short story Spielberg's "A.I." was based on. What did you think of the movie? I liked this gently paced story for the most part, especially the second act and the ending. However, as an old feminist warhorse, I'm overly sensitive to anything which may be a criticism of women's mothering behavior (actually both parents were shown as inept, I thought.) Also, anything which smacks of an abortion metaphor and is "anti." I thought the film was manipulative to the point of trying to totally exhaust the audience emotionally - almost as extreme as "Steel Magnolias." Your thoughts? Best, Gwen V. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1081F.3FAD1280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 Gwen, I understand that the story is being republushed to coincude with = the=20 reliease of AI... but It is also available on-line, in entirety, at the=20 following URL
 
http= ://www.wired.com/wired/archive/5.01/ffsupertoys_pr.html=
-----Original Message-----
From: For discussion of = feminist=20 SF, fantastic & utopian literature = [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf=20 Of Gwen Veazey
Sent: Monday, 9 July 2001 9:42 = AM
To:=20 feministsf@UIC.EDU
Subject: [*FSFFU*] = "A.I"

I'm wondering if anyone knows where I might find = Brian=20 Aldiss' short story, "Super Toys Last All Summer" which I understand = is the=20 short story Spielberg's "A.I." was based on.
 
What did you think of the movie?  I liked = this gently=20 paced story for the most part, especially the second act and the = ending. =20 However, as an old feminist warhorse, I'm overly sensitive to anything = which=20 may be a criticism of women's mothering behavior (actually both = parents were=20 shown as inept, I thought.)  Also, anything which smacks of an = abortion=20 metaphor and is "anti."
 
I thought the film was manipulative to the point = of trying=20 to totally exhaust the audience emotionally - almost as extreme as = "Steel=20 Magnolias."  Your thoughts?
 
Best,
Gwen V.
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1081F.3FAD1280-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 02:12:05 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Guttentag & Secord: "Too Many Women" Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <200107090108.tkif36.9kl.37kbi0u@strange.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dianne Kraft > Couldn't help throwing in one of my favorite references as to the sex > ratio question: The book above, written by a social psychologist & > sociologist, went through historical records of all types (including > fiction) and talk about the interplay of macro level phenomena, like > sex ratio, to micro level phenomena, like attitudes towards premarital > sex and fidelity within marriages. It's a very interesting book, as > they try to keep in mind power structures operating all the while > (with the basic sociological premise that those w/ power, i.e., men, > are not likely to give it up or away) -- but they claim that sex ratio > very much influences a society's view of romance and sex. The book > is from 1983, but still worth a look. On the SF front, there is also _All the Stars a Stage_ a very obscure novel by James Blish (which I'd be shocked if anyone else here had read). In this society, humans had discovered a way to select the sex of their offspring. The result was a huge (like 8 to 1) surplus of men, so women were in charge of the society and most men never got to marry and were simply a vast, highly competative labor pool (only the ones who distinguished themselves significantly were allowed to marry). This was not the focus of the book (the book was primarily about some people finding out their sun was soon go go nova and escaping) but it was a significant part of the local culture and was quite well done, given that Blish was an old-school male SF writer (although one who was far less offensive and gender-biased than most others). Has anyone else here read this book? What did you think? -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 10:04:20 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Guttentag & Secord: "Too Many Women" Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <200107090912.FAA09723@barry.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow, thanks heaps for bringing up this book. Unfortunately, I must admit I have not read or even heard oft his book, but I certainly hope that I can dig it up and raed it in the very near future. I know a few of Blish's books have been republiushed by SF Masterworks- do you happen to know id this book is out of preint? Maire -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of John Snead Sent: Monday, 9 July 2001 7:12 PM To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Guttentag & Secord: "Too Many Women" Dianne Kraft > Couldn't help throwing in one of my favorite references as to the sex > ratio question: The book above, written by a social psychologist & > sociologist, went through historical records of all types (including > fiction) and talk about the interplay of macro level phenomena, like > sex ratio, to micro level phenomena, like attitudes towards premarital > sex and fidelity within marriages. It's a very interesting book, as > they try to keep in mind power structures operating all the while > (with the basic sociological premise that those w/ power, i.e., men, > are not likely to give it up or away) -- but they claim that sex ratio > very much influences a society's view of romance and sex. The book > is from 1983, but still worth a look. On the SF front, there is also _All the Stars a Stage_ a very obscure novel by James Blish (which I'd be shocked if anyone else here had read). In this society, humans had discovered a way to select the sex of their offspring. The result was a huge (like 8 to 1) surplus of men, so women were in charge of the society and most men never got to marry and were simply a vast, highly competative labor pool (only the ones who distinguished themselves significantly were allowed to marry). This was not the focus of the book (the book was primarily about some people finding out their sun was soon go go nova and escaping) but it was a significant part of the local culture and was quite well done, given that Blish was an old-school male SF writer (although one who was far less offensive and gender-biased than most others). Has anyone else here read this book? What did you think? -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:49:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tracy A Mitchell Subject: Severna Park Lectures at Library o' Congress Comments: To: feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU, feministsf@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Everyone: Thought I'd forward this item I picked up from another list I'm on. Peace, Tracy ---------------------- Forwarded by Tracy A Mitchell/Raleigh/Contr/IBM on 07/10/2001 11:43 AM --------------------------- Hi all! For those of you in the area, I'll be giving my famous 'Matriarchal origins of the Current Patriarchy' or 'Your Mama!' lecture at the Library of Congress on Wednesday, July 11. The lecture is from noon to 1 pm in the Madison Building at 1st and Independence in Dining Room A, and has gotten rave reviews from those who saw me deliver it for the Philidelphia SF Society last spring. Capital South is the nearest metro stop, and there will be lunch at a fabulous Thai restaurant afterwards. For info, call Sinya Schaeffer at the Library of Congress, (202) 707-2990. See you there! Suze/Severna Severna Park Nebula Award Finalist The Cure For Everything (2001 Nebula Preliminary List) http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/originals/originals_archive/s_park/ See my website! (Is it cool or what?) http://users.erols.com/feldsipe _________________________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:34:08 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Cronin Subject: [Fwd: Mysterious book request] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got this request on another list I'm on. It doesn't sound like anything I've read, but it does sound interesting. Anybody know what it is? Thanks! -Sandy -------- Original Message -------- There seems to be a lot of avid readers on this list, maybe someone can help me. I've heard rumors about a Science Fiction novel out there I really want to read but no one seems to know the title or author. The plot in a nutshell is about the world splitting into two parallel universes, with all the men winding up in one universe and all the women in the other. It then goes on to describe how each society evolves without the other's influences. Does this sound familiar, anyone? -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:31:59 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erika Maria Lacey Subject: Re: [Fwd: Mysterious book request] Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <3B4D0CA0.1964D86C@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The description of that book sounds like something I heard about recently where on planet Earth men and women are still around, but neither can see one another. I can't remember what the book's called for the life of me, nor who wrote it ... I think I heard about it on either this or the sister list. Erika -- : Erika Maria Lacey : erikaml@ihug.com.au : www.grailsearch.cjb.net : : "There is only one offense against authority: self control." : : - Thomas Szasz : -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:39:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: [Fwd: Mysterious book request] Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got a little more info; it's at least 20 years old - the listmember's mother is the one that mentioned it, but she can't remember anything else but the summary below. Thanks for any help! -Sandy Sandy Cronin wrote: > > I got this request on another list I'm on. It doesn't sound like > anything I've read, but it does sound interesting. Anybody know what it > is? > > Thanks! > > -Sandy > > -------- Original Message -------- > > There seems to be a lot of avid readers on this list, maybe someone can > help > me. I've heard rumors about a Science Fiction novel out there I really > want > to read but no one seems to know the title or author. The plot in a > nutshell is about the world splitting into two parallel universes, with > all > the men winding up in one universe and all the women in the other. It > then > goes on to describe how each society evolves without the other's > influences. > Does this sound familiar, anyone? -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:43:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: [Fwd: Mysterious book request] Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow, THAT one sounds interesting, too, even if it isn't the same book! If you get a flash on a title or author, let us know! :) -Sandy Erika Maria Lacey wrote: > > The description of that book sounds like something I heard about recently > where on planet Earth men and women are still around, but neither can see > one another. I can't remember what the book's called for the life of me, > nor who wrote it ... I think I heard about it on either this or the sister > list. > > Erika -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 23:26:09 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: [Fwd: Mysterious book request] Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0280E675A42A231CEF92BA4A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0280E675A42A231CEF92BA4A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------77D9A877EC510C4362133C61" --------------77D9A877EC510C4362133C61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That might be Philip Wylie's The Disappearance (ca. 1960). Dave Samuelson Sandy Cronin wrote: > I got this request on another list I'm on. It doesn't sound like > anything I've read, but it does sound interesting. Anybody know what it > is? > > Thanks! > > -Sandy > > -------- Original Message -------- > > There seems to be a lot of avid readers on this list, maybe someone can > help > me. I've heard rumors about a Science Fiction novel out there I really > want > to read but no one seems to know the title or author. The plot in a > nutshell is about the world splitting into two parallel universes, with > all > the men winding up in one universe and all the women in the other. It > then > goes on to describe how each society evolves without the other's > influences. > Does this sound familiar, anyone? > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. --------------77D9A877EC510C4362133C61 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That might be Philip Wylie's The Disappearance (ca. 1960).

Dave Samuelson

Sandy Cronin wrote:

I got this request on another list I'm on.  It doesn't sound like
anything I've read, but it does sound interesting.  Anybody know what it
is?

Thanks!

 -Sandy

-------- Original Message --------

There seems to be a lot of avid readers on this list, maybe someone can
help
me.  I've heard rumors about a Science Fiction novel out there I really
want
to read but no one seems to know the title or author.  The plot in a
nutshell is about the world splitting into two parallel universes, with
all
the men winding up in one universe and all the women in the other.  It
then
goes on to describe how each society evolves without the other's
influences.
Does this sound familiar, anyone?

--------------------------------------------------
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--------------77D9A877EC510C4362133C61-- --------------0280E675A42A231CEF92BA4A Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="dnsmlsn.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Dave Samuelson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dnsmlsn.vcf" begin:vcard n:Samuelson;Dave tel;fax:work: 562-985-2369 home: 949-858-7170 tel;home:949-858-7878 tel;work:562-985-4245 x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:dnsmlsn@csulb.edu fn:Dave Samuelson end:vcard --------------0280E675A42A231CEF92BA4A-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 03:45:39 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: dannia Subject: Re: [Fwd: Mysterious book request] Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Possibly The Female Man, by Joanna Russ, if the word 'universe' is not taken literally ? --dannia Sandy Cronin wrote: > > I got a little more info; it's at least 20 years old - the listmember's > mother is the one that mentioned it, but she can't remember anything > else but the summary below. > The plot in a > > nutshell is about the world splitting into two parallel universes, with > > all > > the men winding up in one universe and all the women in the other. It > > then > > goes on to describe how each society evolves without the other's > > influences. > > Does this sound familiar, anyone? > > -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:48:25 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: [Fwd: Mysterious book request] Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Samuelson wrote: > That might be Philip Wylie's The Disappearance (ca. 1960). > Sandy Cronin wrote: > > I got this request on another list I'm on. It doesn't > > sound like > > anything I've read, but it does sound interesting. > > Anybody know what it is? > > -------- Original Message -------- > > There seems to be a lot of avid readers on this list, > > maybe someone can help > > me. I've heard rumors about a Science Fiction novel out > > there I really want > > to read but no one seems to know the title or author. > > The plot in a > > nutshell is about the world splitting into two parallel > > universes, with all > > the men winding up in one universe and all the women in > > the other. It then > > goes on to describe how each society evolves without the > > other's influences. > > Does this sound familiar, anyone? It's definitely Wylie's THE DISAPPEARANCE, which I read some years ago. Rather dated, I fear, with really appalling ideas about homosexuality in particular; but an interesting period piece, especially for you young whippersnappers who didn't live through the sexual attitudes of that era. :) It did have a mass market paperback edition. If you don't get it through your library, you can probably find it at one of the larger used book stores, like Renaissance here in Milwaukee or Tattered Cover in Denver or Powell's in Portland (OR). It may be sorted into the mainstream section, rather than SF, since it was NOT marketed as SF at the time. -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey Sunrise Book Reviews -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:16:56 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: [Fwd: Mysterious book request] Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks so much, everyone, for the quick responses; it probably was the Wylie that the listmember's mother was remembering; I've forwarded on your posts to my other list (with names removed). I also did a quick search online; my local suburban county-wide library system doesn't have it, and neither does powells (which is local to me, but I searched online) - the only way they'd actually have it would be if it was priced less than $5 (they don't put really cheap things in the database any more). But that seems quite unlikely, give that: I did find 12 copies listed at alibris.com. The cheapest was $33.50. And, just FYI, the original publication date was apparantly 1951. So it seems it's reasonably rare. Thanks again for all your help! -Sandy > It's definitely Wylie's THE DISAPPEARANCE, which I read some > years ago. Rather dated, I fear, with really appalling > ideas about homosexuality in particular; but an interesting > period piece, especially for you young whippersnappers who > didn't live through the sexual attitudes of that era. :) > > It did have a mass market paperback edition. If you don't > get it through your library, you can probably find it at one > of the larger used book stores, like Renaissance here in > Milwaukee or Tattered Cover in Denver or Powell's in > Portland (OR). It may be sorted into the mainstream > section, rather than SF, since it was NOT marketed as SF at > the time. > > -- > Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey > Sunrise Book Reviews -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:59:15 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: [Fwd: Mysterious book request] Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <3B4DBF68.9971E9@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:16 AM 7/12/01 -0700, Sandy Cronin wrote: >Thanks so much, everyone, for the quick responses; it probably was the >Wylie that the listmember's mother was remembering; I've forwarded on >your posts to my other list (with names removed). > >I also did a quick search online; my local suburban county-wide library >system doesn't have it, and neither does powells (which is local to me, >but I searched online) - the only way they'd actually have it would be >if it was priced less than $5 (they don't put really cheap things in the >database any more). But that seems quite unlikely, give that: > >I did find 12 copies listed at alibris.com. The cheapest was $33.50. > >And, just FYI, the original publication date was apparantly 1951. > >So it seems it's reasonably rare. >> It's definitely Wylie's THE DISAPPEARANCE www.bookfinder.com, besides the $33.50 alibris, also lists a $11.97 in Ontario, and "multiple copies may be available" from half.com at $3.75. Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 08:21:34 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: [Fwd: Mysterious book request] Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > www.bookfinder.com, besides the $33.50 alibris, also lists a $11.97 in Ontario, and "multiple copies may be available" from half.com at $3.75. You're absolutely right; bookavenue.com has one for $12 with "light wear", but the ONE at half.com for $3.75 isn't actually that book; the description says "different book! "they both were naked" by same author!" *sigh* -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 10:37:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: CapClave: Celebrating the Short Story in SF Comments: To: IsaacL@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Ted White Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 11:36 PM To: TIMEBINDERS@SFLOVERS.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Capclave When I was at last week's WSFA meeting Lee Gililland asked me if I'd pass this information on to "my people," or words to that effect, which I took to mean internet fandom, or at least the small part of it in which I roam. So here it is: Capclave 2001 Celebrating the Short Story in Science Fiction From WSFA, the people who brought you Disclave Guest of Honor: Gardner Dozois Ghost of Honor: Joseph Mayhew September 28-30, 2001 Sheraton College Park, Beltsville, MD Registration: $30 through August 15th. $35 at the door. There's more, including a map and directions and a list of confirmed program participants, at WSFA's website at http://www.WSFA.org/ "Celebrating the Short Story in Science Fiction." I kinda like that. It's a fresh approach and by ghod it concerns *written* SF. Check it out. Maybe it has the makings for a decent annual event. --Ted White -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:32:46 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: CapClave: Celebrating the Short Story in SF Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How depressing.... yet another one of these posts advertising events that I cant go to. Times like this I feel jealous of the US-ers. Where are all the AUs events? -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Todd Mason Sent: Saturday, 14 July 2001 1:38 AM To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] CapClave: Celebrating the Short Story in SF -----Original Message----- From: Ted White Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 11:36 PM To: TIMEBINDERS@SFLOVERS.RUTGERS.EDU Subject: Capclave When I was at last week's WSFA meeting Lee Gililland asked me if I'd pass this information on to "my people," or words to that effect, which I took to mean internet fandom, or at least the small part of it in which I roam. So here it is: Capclave 2001 Celebrating the Short Story in Science Fiction From WSFA, the people who brought you Disclave Guest of Honor: Gardner Dozois Ghost of Honor: Joseph Mayhew September 28-30, 2001 Sheraton College Park, Beltsville, MD Registration: $30 through August 15th. $35 at the door. There's more, including a map and directions and a list of confirmed program participants, at WSFA's website at http://www.WSFA.org/ "Celebrating the Short Story in Science Fiction." I kinda like that. It's a fresh approach and by ghod it concerns *written* SF. Check it out. Maybe it has the makings for a decent annual event. --Ted White -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 11:07:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: CapClave: Celebrating the Short Story in SF Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maire wrote: > > How depressing.... yet another one of these posts advertising events that I > cant go to. Times like this I feel jealous of the US-ers. Where are all the > AUs events? Well, ConVergence, the 2002 Natcon [Australian National SF Con] in Melbourne, won't be until June 2002. 'Til then, you need to keep checking the SFOZ Con page at: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~sfoz/cons.htm -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey will probably never get to one -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 13:57:54 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: CapClave: Celebrating the Short Story in SF Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <3B4F1CAC.9565A00B@uwm.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know- I have noticed that Melbourne seems to be the sf capital of Australia! When searching hte net for Aust cons and so on, I have come across quite a few, but all in Melbourne. Unfortunately, I live in Sydney, and have a small child. The only ones I have seen that is coming up in Sydney soon are the babylon 5/ Star Trek types Maire -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael J. Lowrey Sent: Saturday, 14 July 2001 2:07 AM To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] CapClave: Celebrating the Short Story in SF Maire wrote: > > How depressing.... yet another one of these posts advertising events that I > cant go to. Times like this I feel jealous of the US-ers. Where are all the > AUs events? Well, ConVergence, the 2002 Natcon [Australian National SF Con] in Melbourne, won't be until June 2002. 'Til then, you need to keep checking the SFOZ Con page at: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~sfoz/cons.htm -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey will probably never get to one -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:34:02 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Children of God plus spoilers for the Sparrow ( v mild spoilers for CoG) Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmmm.... seems that this list is rather inactive at the mo! So- i am going to attempt to revive.... *pulls back shoulders* here goes! I am presently reading Children of God, the sequel to the Sparrow by Mary Doria Russel. I am actually finding it even better than the Sparrow. They have bothe been the sort of books that I feel so excited aobut that I cast about for people to lend them to. (hard for me, as my mother thinks sf is patriarchal fluff, and my father is distrustful of anything smacking of feminism, on principle.Yes, these two positions seem mutually exclusive, but they manage it. The vast majority of people that I know in the 'real' world, as opposed to the net, either don't like sf, and have probably never tried it.And, if they do like sf/f, then they stick to the series crap, and are reluctant to try anything 'obscure' ie not by Baxter, Benford, Brooks or Jordan. Although my dad is improving- he read NOthing bu the Dog by Willis, and is now her biggest fan) Quite a few people seem to be bothered by some aspect of the Sparrow.. I remember on this list a mild furour because some people felt very offended by the fact that the terible thing that happened to Sandoz was that he was raped- and that it was as though a man getting raped was the most terrible ting that could ever happen, whereas nowhere as much sympathy is given to female rape victims. ok, now I can see their point. but I dont think that the solution is that Sandoz shuod have 'pulled' himself together' and so on- but rather that *women* getting raped shuld also be treated as the most terrible thing in the world. Also- Sandoz was not just raped, he was sodomised, by 17 different J'anata, for over 8 months. the more he struggeled, the more they liked it. Now I cant help but think that to be forcefully sodomised has to be just a terrible agony- more so than being vaginally raped. And not to mention the permanent tissue damage that was incurred.... when Sandoz was discovered by the second human party from earth, the Contact consortium, they described '.... the bloody evidence of sodomy was clearly visible...' To me, there is no insiuation whatsoever that what Sandow went through was worse because he was a *man* it was the particular conditions of his treatment that rendered it so soul-destroying. ok, there is an obvioius contrast with Sophia Mendes... orphaned at 14 in war-torn Istanbul, she sold herself in order to survive. But she is tough, capable, brilliant- in stark contrast to Sandoz' complete collapse. But I think this is the result of the different personalities involved, not because rape and prositution was somehow easier for Mendes, as a woman. And ANyay, her expereinces severely damaged her in any case- but just not in the was that Sandoz was damaged. And of course, perhaps the *real* issue for Sandoz was not so much the rape, as his issue with God- an entity that he had had basically been havin g a love affair with for years- he believed he was fulfilling a divine purpose, had completely trusted in god etc etc.. and had then had expereinces that seemed almost designed to destroy his body and soul- how couldh e help but see this as the greatest betrayal possible by an entity he had devoted his life to. An entity he believes all-powerful- easily able to alter the course of events, but instead chosing a course of events that see Sandoz destroyed. Anway! What is *really* interesting- just *so* interesting is to read Chiodren of God. It is told from different POVs, including some of the arch 'vililans' of the Sparrow. It is so interesting to see that it is actually cultural misunderstandings which have caused this devestating turn of events, rather than deliberate malice. Well- I'll end here! Think I wil keep posting until I get some discussion on this list! I can se you are all lurking there- as evedenced by the flurry of action whenever there is a story ID request and so on. Maire ps. If anyone reads the Ill-Made Mute by Cecilia Dart-Thornton (as I soooo hope they do!) *do not* read any reviews! The reviewer at amazon should be shot- they have littered the review with the mst major spoiler!! And its a spoiler that I reckon will have the most impact on people at this list (as long as they dont see the info before reading the book, if you know what I mean)ie something happens in the book, someting that makes the book relevant to this list, as in it will be a *major* zinger esp for femsf peoples- but the reviewer at amazon has given it away in the bllurb!!! -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Maire Sent: Friday, 13 July 2001 1:58 PM To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] CapClave: Celebrating the Short Story in SF I know- I have noticed that Melbourne seems to be the sf capital of Australia! When searching hte net for Aust cons and so on, I have come across quite a few, but all in Melbourne. Unfortunately, I live in Sydney, and have a small child. The only ones I have seen that is coming up in Sydney soon are the babylon 5/ Star Trek types Maire -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael J. Lowrey Sent: Saturday, 14 July 2001 2:07 AM To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] CapClave: Celebrating the Short Story in SF Maire wrote: > > How depressing.... yet another one of these posts advertising events that I > cant go to. Times like this I feel jealous of the US-ers. Where are all the > AUs events? Well, ConVergence, the 2002 Natcon [Australian National SF Con] in Melbourne, won't be until June 2002. 'Til then, you need to keep checking the SFOZ Con page at: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~sfoz/cons.htm -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey will probably never get to one -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:00:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gwen Veazey Subject: M. D. Russell's books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01C10BA4.3A291EC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C10BA4.3A291EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maire, I liked _Children of God_ better than _The Sparrow_ also. =20 In Sparrow: It's been a while since I read it, so hope I'm remembering = everything correctly. I had less of a problem with the sensitivity to = male vs. female rape issues as with the unbelievability of the Catholic = hierarchy's unsympathetic response to Sandoz. Is it possible they could = be so dense and cruel? Well, OK, but to a devoted Catholic priest? = This was not convincing to me, although I've heard Russell speak, and = know that she's well-versed in Catholicism. She based Sandoz on a real = missionary who was tortured by Native Americans, then decided to return, = despite that. I wondered if his interaction with the Catholic hierarchy = was similar? Also, I feel it is unfriendly to readers to have all the = characters know what's going on, but not let the readers in on it until = the end. Eliminating the alternating chapters of present vs. flashback = would have solved that, but perhaps offered less narrative tension. = Russell did such an excellent job of presenting the alien world and its = creatures. She has been working on her third book - nonfiction about = Italian resistance to the Nazis - for over three years and I can tell = she is brilliant, and a perfectionist. Best, Gwen ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C10BA4.3A291EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Maire,  I liked _Children of God_ better than = _The=20 Sparrow_ also. 
 
In Sparrow:  It's been a while since I read it, = so hope=20 I'm remembering everything correctly.  I had less of a problem with = the=20 sensitivity to male vs. female rape issues as with the unbelievability = of the=20 Catholic hierarchy's unsympathetic response to Sandoz.  Is it = possible they=20 could be so dense and cruel?  Well, OK, but to a devoted Catholic=20 priest?   This was not convincing to me, although I've heard = Russell=20 speak, and know that she's well-versed in Catholicism.  = She based=20 Sandoz on a real missionary who was tortured by Native Americans, then = decided=20 to return, despite that.  I wondered if his interaction with the = Catholic=20 hierarchy was similar?   Also, I feel it is unfriendly to = readers to=20 have all the characters know what's going on, but not let the readers in = on it=20 until the end.  Eliminating the alternating chapters of present vs. = flashback would have solved that, but perhaps offered less narrative=20 tension.  Russell did such an excellent job of presenting the alien = world=20 and its creatures.  She has been working on her third book - = nonfiction=20 about Italian resistance to the Nazis - for over three years and I can = tell she=20 is brilliant, and a perfectionist.
 
Best,
Gwen
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C10BA4.3A291EC0-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 07:43:24 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Erika Maria Lacey Subject: Re: Australian cons Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Maire said something to the effect of no SF-lit cons in Sydney; not true. Last year there were a number of Freecons and this year there has been one. There is more information about them at the following URL, including contact details: http://members.optushome.com.au/aussff/ Melbourne and Perth have regular cons ... you should try living in Brisbane! (a SF-con black hole.) cheers Erika -- : Erika Maria Lacey : erikaml@ihug.com.au : www.grailsearch.cjb.net : : "There is only one offense against authority: self control." : : - Thomas Szasz : -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:58:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dianne Kraft Subject: M. D. Russell's books Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I couldn't resist chiming in about these books. I read them several years ago, and thought (and think) they were some of the best novels I've ever read. Brilliant -- and until I got to speak to the author at Armadillocon last year, I was convinced they had been written as one novel, that she had been forced to separate for reasons of cost or something. The way she takes reality and spins it and twists it so that what you know is true by the end of the first, is simply not true by the middle of the second, was breathtaking. She was a wonderful con guest, by the way, funny as hell, and friendly, and as smart as you might imagine. She claimed that she started Children of God as a novella, and that it took on a life of its own. Her new book is about Jews escaping to Italy during WWII, and she read a bit of it, and it gave me goosebumps. I'll even forgive her for it not being SF. Dianne -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 23:00:16 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gwen Veazey Subject: Russell and Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C10BEF.951BC940" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C10BEF.951BC940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm adding a PS to my comments about Mary Doria Russell: I recall that = she said her inspiration for the alien beings who were dominant on = Rakhat was an experience in Australia. She was exploring with others = (somewhere in the outback?) and crested a hill to come face to face - = or rather face to chest - with a huge kangaroo, which frightened her to = death. She said she knew enough about the animal to realize it could do = serious damage to her if it felt threatened. Fortunately, it hopped = off. Best, Gwen ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C10BEF.951BC940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm adding a PS to my comments about Mary Doria = Russell: =20 I recall that she said her inspiration for the alien beings who were = dominant on=20 Rakhat was an experience in Australia.  She was exploring with = others=20 (somewhere in the outback?) and crested a hill to come face to = face  - or=20 rather face to chest - with a huge kangaroo, which frightened her to=20 death.  She said she knew enough about the animal to realize it = could do=20 serious damage to her if it felt threatened.  Fortunately, it = hopped=20 off.
 
Best,
Gwen
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C10BEF.951BC940-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 02:14:00 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Russell and Australia Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <001a01c10c11$1cc47920$3a84cbcf@vistatech.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005F_01C10C0A.A5412200" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C10C0A.A5412200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit errr yess... well, kangaroos do serious damage all the time. They insist on throwing themselves onto the bonnets of moving cars... the damage has to be seen to beb elieved. Aussies who regularly drive in the bush/ rural areas have to have special bumpers put on their cars. But as for attacking a person? Ummm, dont *think* so, though I can understand that some of them are so huge, they could seem intimidating Maire -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Gwen Veazey Sent: Saturday, 14 July 2001 1:00 PM To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] Russell and Australia I'm adding a PS to my comments about Mary Doria Russell: I recall that she said her inspiration for the alien beings who were dominant on Rakhat was an experience in Australia. She was exploring with others (somewhere in the outback?) and crested a hill to come face to face - or rather face to chest - with a huge kangaroo, which frightened her to death. She said she knew enough about the animal to realize it could do serious damage to her if it felt threatened. Fortunately, it hopped off. Best, Gwen ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C10C0A.A5412200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
errr=20 yess... well, kangaroos do serious damage all the time. They insist on = throwing=20 themselves onto the bonnets of moving cars... the damage has to be seen = to beb=20 elieved. Aussies who regularly drive in the bush/ rural areas have to = have=20 special bumpers put on their cars.
But as=20 for attacking a person? Ummm, dont *think* so, though I can understand = that some=20 of them are so huge, they could seem intimidating
Maire
-----Original Message-----
From: For discussion of = feminist=20 SF, fantastic & utopian literature = [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf=20 Of Gwen Veazey
Sent: Saturday, 14 July 2001 1:00=20 PM
To: feministsf@UIC.EDU
Subject: [*FSFFU*] = Russell and=20 Australia

I'm adding a PS to my comments about Mary Doria=20 Russell:  I recall that she said her inspiration for the alien = beings who=20 were dominant on Rakhat was an experience in Australia.  She = was=20 exploring with others (somewhere in the outback?) and crested a hill = to come=20 face to face  - or rather face to chest - with a huge kangaroo, = which=20 frightened her to death.  She said she knew enough about the = animal to=20 realize it could do serious damage to her if it felt threatened.  = Fortunately, it hopped off.
 
Best,
Gwen
------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C10C0A.A5412200-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 23:37:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Louise Angrilli Subject: Re: Russell and Australia Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've heard that kangaroos can actually be quite aggressive. My mum often tells me about an incident on the Early Bird show (anyone remember it?) where they had a kangaroo in and it decided it didn't particularly like Marty Monster (guy in a big costume), so it grabbed onto him with it's front legs and preceded to repeatedly kick him in the abdomen with it's hind legs (which are rather powerful) until the keeper enticed it to stop. If the guy hadn't been heavily padded within the costume, the kangaroo could have done quite a bit of damage. Louise --- Maire wrote: > errr yess... well, kangaroos do serious damage all > the time. They insist on > throwing themselves onto the bonnets of moving > cars... the damage has to be > seen to beb elieved. Aussies who regularly drive in > the bush/ rural areas > have to have special bumpers put on their cars. > But as for attacking a person? Ummm, dont *think* > so, though I can > understand that some of them are so huge, they could > seem intimidating > Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & > utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Gwen Veazey > Sent: Saturday, 14 July 2001 1:00 PM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] Russell and Australia > > > I'm adding a PS to my comments about Mary Doria > Russell: I recall that > she said her inspiration for the alien beings who > were dominant on Rakhat > was an experience in Australia. She was exploring > with others (somewhere in > the outback?) and crested a hill to come face to > face - or rather face to > chest - with a huge kangaroo, which frightened her > to death. She said she > knew enough about the animal to realize it could do > serious damage to her if > it felt threatened. Fortunately, it hopped off. > > Best, > Gwen > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 10:03:34 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Russell and Australia Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <20010714063740.59225.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thats the way that male kangaroos do the dominance thing, ie competing to be the male in the herd. It must have thought that the costume guy represented a threat. Personaly I have been around kangaroos dozens of times, and they have always been completely harmless and placid, (to the extenet that I remmeber looking inside pouches at the little slug-like baby kangaroos...) I reckon that is the way to do child-birth- give birth to your opffspring when they are the size of worms, and then have them grow in a pouch, attached to a teat until they are developed. Far less painful Maire -----Original Message----- From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Louise Angrilli Sent: Saturday, 14 July 2001 4:38 PM To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Russell and Australia I've heard that kangaroos can actually be quite aggressive. My mum often tells me about an incident on the Early Bird show (anyone remember it?) where they had a kangaroo in and it decided it didn't particularly like Marty Monster (guy in a big costume), so it grabbed onto him with it's front legs and preceded to repeatedly kick him in the abdomen with it's hind legs (which are rather powerful) until the keeper enticed it to stop. If the guy hadn't been heavily padded within the costume, the kangaroo could have done quite a bit of damage. Louise --- Maire wrote: > errr yess... well, kangaroos do serious damage all > the time. They insist on > throwing themselves onto the bonnets of moving > cars... the damage has to be > seen to beb elieved. Aussies who regularly drive in > the bush/ rural areas > have to have special bumpers put on their cars. > But as for attacking a person? Ummm, dont *think* > so, though I can > understand that some of them are so huge, they could > seem intimidating > Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & > utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Gwen Veazey > Sent: Saturday, 14 July 2001 1:00 PM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] Russell and Australia > > > I'm adding a PS to my comments about Mary Doria > Russell: I recall that > she said her inspiration for the alien beings who > were dominant on Rakhat > was an experience in Australia. She was exploring > with others (somewhere in > the outback?) and crested a hill to come face to > face - or rather face to > chest - with a huge kangaroo, which frightened her > to death. She said she > knew enough about the animal to realize it could do > serious damage to her if > it felt threatened. Fortunately, it hopped off. > > Best, > Gwen > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems.