Re: our cyborg history

From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:31:50 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:48:09 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0108C" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:34:50 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Comments: To: fantastic & utopian literature For discussion of feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01C12668.FD112CA0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C12668.FD112CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, A friend of mine just asked for advice on which order to read the MZB's Darkover books, and where to start. I remember someone on this list about a year ago, posting a rreally great URL which listed all the books, trilogies and stand-alones, with info on each and advce on which order to read them. Does anyone still have this URL at all??? Thanks in advance Maire "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C12668.FD112CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi=20 all,

A = friend of mine=20 just asked for advice on which order to read the MZB's Darkover books, = and where=20 to start. I remember someone on this list about a year ago, posting a = rreally=20 great URL which listed all the books, trilogies and stand-alones, with = info on=20 each and advce on which order to read them. Does anyone still have this = URL at=20 all???

Thanks in=20 advance

Maire

"There's=20 nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half=20 the people wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for women being=20 pregnant."

Sarah=20 Kennedy, British Radio 2

------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C12668.FD112CA0-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 02:40:17 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Maire. I've found the following site very helpful: http://darkover.cx/guide/books/index.en.html. I'm not sure if I posted the link before or if someone else did (I have a terrible memory). Jennifer At 03:34 PM 8/16/01 +1000, you wrote: > Hi all, >A friend of mine just asked for advice on which order to read the MZB's >Darkover books, and where to start. I remember someone on this list about >a year ago, posting a rreally great URL which listed all the books, >trilogies and stand-alones, with info on each and advce on which order to >read them. Does anyone still have this URL at all??? >Thanks in advance >Maire >"There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here >today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." >Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:31:34 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Angela Barclay Subject: on being cyborg Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear listmembers: I'm writing to pick your brains on a central premise of my thesis project. I am looking for some more examples of how we are cyborgs and how our experience is cyborg and would be pleased with your imput on any of the following questions. Cultural theorist and philosopher of science Donna Haraway puts forth the concept of cyberfeminism in _The Cyborg Manifesto (1985, 1991)_. In ultra simple terms, just as the cyborg is a hybrid of machine and organism or animal and human or the physical and non-physical; the cyberfeminism that Haraway theorizes is a collective of feminists who are open to the differing standpoints of other feminists of different races, ages, genders, classes and cultural standpoints. Question One: While Haraway's ideas are fascinating and I believe relevant- she is notoriously hard to understand. Does anyone have any thoughts about or interpretations of Haraway they'd like to share? Question Two: Is Haraway's cyberfeminism just a myth or a dream or does it really exhist? Can you give examples of 'cyberfeminist' coalitions or collectives or experiences? Could our listserve be called a cyberfeminist coalition? Why or why not? Question Three: Everyday experiences of being cyborg include the transplant of animal organs into humans (I need specific examples here); prothestic experiences of using a fork, riding a bicycle, operating a computer; and wearing glasses or hearing aids or a pacemaker. Can you think of others? Question Four: I could use more examples of fictional cyborgs, particularly female cyborgs. So far I've got: 1. (Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_ of course.) 2. Catherine Moore's Dierdre in "No Woman Born" (1944)- a dancer who has her brain transplanted into a robotic body after nearly dying in a fire. (Thanks to Patricia Mathews who does a wonderful job of describing this story in Ted Staiclair's _The Feminine Eye: Science Fiction and the Women who Write It_ (1982) 3. Anne McCaffery's Helva in "The Ship who Sang" (1974)- a person with a deformed body but keen mind who is encased within and becomes the brain of a star ship. 4. The offspring of the earthlings and the Oankali in Octavia Butler's _Xenogenisis Trilogy_. I know Pat Cadigan writes cyberpunk but have not yet read her works. Are there any in particular that highlight cyborgs? Thanks from Angela who is getting tired of 'being one' with this computer! -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:02:39 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: eva Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <20010816214042.OJYS1975.priv-edtnes12-hme0.telusplanet.net@[161.184.43.244]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Angela Barclay wrote: > Question Four: I could use more examples of fictional cyborgs, particularly > female cyborgs. if you're willing to spread into japanese manga, try masamune shirow's _ghost in the shell_, adapted into a rather famous (and visually beautiful) anime movie by mamoru oshii. set in a future where cyborg technology is commonplace, the central character is a female cop who's undergone total body replacement. i'm not familiar with donna haraway or her definition of cyberfeminism...i guess i don't quite understand the analogy she's drawing. interested in hearing more. -> eva -- http://mrow.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:50:39 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angela, Just out of curiosity, which of the definitions of "cyborg" do you believe the offspring of the humans and Oankali fall into? The Oankali aren't machines, they're not animals, and they aren't nonphysical. I admit I haven't read Haraway, so I may be misinterpreting your explanation of her definitions... It seems to this uninitiated reader, though, that "hybridity" might be a better term for what you're writing about. It's a fascinating topic--I'd love to hear more. BTW, I did my master's thesis on Xenogenesis, so my ears tend to prick up whenever the Oankali rear their...complicated...heads. Sheryl sjlesage@ou.edu -Subject: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg >>Cultural theorist and philosopher of science Donna Haraway puts forth the >concept of cyberfeminism in _The Cyborg Manifesto (1985, 1991)_. In ultra >simple terms, just as the cyborg is a hybrid of machine and organism or >animal and human or the physical and non-physical; the cyberfeminism that >Haraway theorizes is a collective of feminists who are open to the differing >standpoints of other feminists of different races, ages, genders, classes >and cultural standpoints. > >4. The offspring of the earthlings and the Oankali in Octavia Butler's >_Xenogenisis Trilogy_. > . -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:10:21 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patricia Mathews Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <20010816214042.OJYS1975.priv-edtnes12-hme0.telusplanet.net@[161.184.43.244]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Thursday, August 16, 2001 3:31 PM +0100 Angela Barclay wrote: > Dear listmembers: (snip) > 2. Catherine Moore's Dierdre in "No Woman Born" (1944)- a dancer who has > her brain transplanted into a robotic body after nearly dying in a fire. > (Thanks to Patricia Mathews who does a wonderful job of describing this > story in Ted Staiclair's _The Feminine Eye: Science Fiction and the Women > who Write It_ (1982) Blush & many thanks. > > 3. Anne McCaffery's Helva in "The Ship who Sang" (1974)- a person with a > deformed body but keen mind who is encased within and becomes the brain > of a star ship. > > 4. The offspring of the earthlings and the Oankali in Octavia Butler's > _Xenogenisis Trilogy_. > If you're also looking at media, don't forget The Bionic Woman! And note: they could call her counterpart "The $6,000,000 Man", but with a woman there would be too many jokes about that being her price! Pat -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:22:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm thinking of the computer/woman mind-shuffling Lazarus Long got up to in Time Enough for Love and, I think, in a couple of the other late Heinleins. Apologies if I'm missing the target here -- I probably am. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:23:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And the -- ack -- Inquisitor, was it? in Tepper's Six Moon Dance? Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:29:18 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And briefly, the twins in Tepper's Sideshow -- we had a glimpse of the Dinka-jinns but were only properly introduced to a male one. I'll shut up and go home now. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 05:28:28 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you going to use tv or movies? If so you need SevenofNine from Star Trek Voyager. Speaking of SevenofNine do "falsies" (you know the pads women stick in their bras to look bigger) count in your topic? If you do, then what of all those poor women of centuries past who changed the shape of their bodies (rearranging their innards) with corsettes and those women who wear rings around their necks so their necks are very long? What about false eyelashes? Wigs? Fake nails? Women have tended to cyberized themselves throughout history, haven't we? Oh, we can't forget Domeshoes (also known as Comejumpmepumps) either, which some women wear so much they shorten their Achiles' tendons. Singing to the tune of 18th Century musical hall song, "She's got rings in her nostrils and bells in her bellybutton, rollerblades to ride upon, my little cyber rose..." tee hee Cynthia > On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Angela Barclay wrote: > > > Question Four: I could use more examples of fictional cyborgs, particularly > > female cyborgs. are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 20:11:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: earthyfemme Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <20010816214042.OJYS1975.priv-edtnes12-hme0.telusplanet.net@[161.184.43.244]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit How about India Carless, aka Trouble of Melissa Scott's Trouble and Her Friends, or the Transhumanist femme Esther in X-Files' Fifth season ep "Kill Switch" ( www.thexfiles.com/episodes/season5/5x11.html ) Vivian > Dear listmembers: > > I'm writing to pick your brains on a central premise of my thesis project. > I am looking for some more examples of how we are cyborgs and how our > experience is cyborg and would be pleased with your imput on any of the > following questions. > > Cultural theorist and philosopher of science Donna Haraway puts forth the > concept of cyberfeminism in _The Cyborg Manifesto (1985, 1991)_. In ultra > simple terms, just as the cyborg is a hybrid of machine and organism or > animal and human or the physical and non-physical; the cyberfeminism that > Haraway theorizes is a collective of feminists who are open to the differing > standpoints of other feminists of different races, ages, genders, classes > and cultural standpoints. > > Question One: While Haraway's ideas are fascinating and I believe relevant- > she is notoriously hard to understand. Does anyone have any thoughts about > or interpretations of Haraway they'd like to share? > > Question Two: Is Haraway's cyberfeminism just a myth or a dream or does it > really exhist? Can you give examples of 'cyberfeminist' coalitions or > collectives or experiences? Could our listserve be called a cyberfeminist > coalition? Why or why not? > > > Question Three: Everyday experiences of being cyborg include the transplant > of animal organs into humans (I need specific examples here); prothestic > experiences of using a fork, riding a bicycle, operating a computer; and > wearing glasses or hearing aids or a pacemaker. Can you think of others? > > Question Four: I could use more examples of fictional cyborgs, particularly > female cyborgs. So far I've got: > > 1. (Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_ of course.) > > 2. Catherine Moore's Dierdre in "No Woman Born" (1944)- a dancer who has > her brain transplanted into a robotic body after nearly dying in a fire. > (Thanks to Patricia Mathews who does a wonderful job of describing this > story in Ted Staiclair's _The Feminine Eye: Science Fiction and the Women > who Write It_ (1982) > > 3. Anne McCaffery's Helva in "The Ship who Sang" (1974)- a person with a > deformed body but keen mind who is encased within and becomes the brain of a > star ship. > > 4. The offspring of the earthlings and the Oankali in Octavia Butler's > _Xenogenisis Trilogy_. > > I know Pat Cadigan writes cyberpunk but have not yet read her works. Are > there any in particular that highlight cyborgs? > > Thanks from Angela who is getting tired of 'being one' with this computer! > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:16:35 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <1545808458.997978221@dhcp-136-0222.unm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Pat wrote: > > If you're also looking at media, don't forget The Bionic >Woman! And note: >they could call her counterpart "The $6,000,000 Man", but with a woman >there would be too many jokes about that being her price! > And if do you include media there is also Seven of Nine on Star Trek Voyager. I wonder though about including media since you also seem to be refining your list to only characters created by women.... Angela Barclay wrote: >Question Two: Is Haraway's cyberfeminism just a myth or a dream or does it >really exhist? Can you give examples of 'cyberfeminist' coalitions or >collectives or experiences? Could our listserve be called a cyberfeminist >coalition? Why or why not? and you said: At 3:31 PM +0100 8/16/01, Angela Barclay wrote: >the cyberfeminism that Haraway theorizes is a collective of >feminists who are open to the differing standpoints of other >feminists of different races, ages, genders, classes >and cultural standpoints. I do think with just this as a definition to work from - I too am not familiar with Haraway - that this list meets that definition. I think that it includes people who would categorize themselves as > >>feminists of different races, ages, genders, classes >and cultural standpoints. certainly from some of the discussions that have happened here on this list we've seen people define themselves as feminist from all these different backgrounds, both academic and non-academic, and in various stages of life and /or employment. Don't we have one list member who often has her child in her lap as she types. And, we have male list members who seem to also hold with feminist values. Also, we have people from all over the world on this list. Rose -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:22:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rose Reith Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hello, I am forwarding this from another list I am on (children's literature). The writer who is from Sydney, Australia, is searching for science fiction texts. I mentioned Nancy Kress and Joan Slonczewski, and Alice Nunn because I heard about her from this list, but I was wondering if you all had any other suggestions for her, especially suggestions that might be more available in Australia... Thanks for any help. You can reply directly to her or I will collect responses from the list and send them to her. Thank-you, Rose At 4:22 PM +1000 8/16/01, Jacqueline Hicks wrote: >Hi folk, > >I have an academic writing a course proposal for the NSW Dept of Education >and Training, which would become a syllabus for the final 2 years of >schooling. She is looking for science fiction texts which could be used to >draw students unenthusiastic about science into the learning process. I >have seen some wonderful suggestions come from this list over the years and >am wondering if anyone has any ideas. The course is to focus on Chemistry >and Biology and could use fiction and non-fiction. There have been some >wonderful non-fiction books dealing with forensics and medicine published >which I have suggested, but I am stumped for the science fiction area. > >I would be grateful for any suggestions. > >Cheers, >Jacquei > >Jacquei Hicks >Curriculum Librarian >Alexander Mackie Curriculum Resources Library >Old Teachers College Building (A22) >University of Sydney NSW 2006 > >Phone: 61 2 9351 6252 >Fax: 61 2 9351 7766 > >Email: jhicks@library.usyd.edu.au > >Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. >Professionals built the Titanic. > >'Draco dormiens nunquam >titillandus', 'Never tickle a sleeping dragon'. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:18:29 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hey Sheryl: Good to 'hear' from you- I haven't seen your name in the posts for a while. I think your sugestion about using the term 'hybridity' is a good one- and I don't think Haraway who writes about being open to the blurring of boundaries would have a problem with this. While Haraway writes that "Science fiction is generically concerned with the interpenetration of boundaries between problematic selves and unexpected others and with the exploration of posssible worlds in a context structured by transnational technoscience. The emerging social subjects called 'inappropriate/d others inhabit such worlds (1999, p. 230)", I think Butler's work is the only FSF she's applied to her cyborg myth system. I think we definately see 'interpenetration of boundaries' (mental, physical and emotional), 'problematic selves' (how the Oankali and Humans define eachother, how Lilith and Joseph are discriminated against when they are altered) and the 'exploration of possible worlds' (being open to the possibilites and promises and pitfalls inherent in gene-trading). Note: I only read _Dawn_. _Adult Rites_ and _Imago_ are still on my TBR list :-) ---------- >From: Jocelyn & Sheryl >To: feministsf@UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg >Date: Thu, Aug 16, 2001, 10:50 PM > >Angela, > >Just out of curiosity, which of the definitions of "cyborg" do you believe >the offspring of the humans and Oankali fall into? The Oankali aren't >machines, they're not animals, and they aren't nonphysical. I admit I >haven't read Haraway, so I may be misinterpreting your explanation of her >definitions... > >It seems to this uninitiated reader, though, that "hybridity" might be a >better term for what you're writing about. It's a fascinating topic--I'd >love to hear more. BTW, I did my master's thesis on Xenogenesis, so my ears >tend to prick up whenever the Oankali rear their...complicated...heads. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 08:45:13 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: A roll of the die Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone here alerted us tothe short story, "A Roll of the Die" by Catherine Asaro. I read it awhile back and I wanted to say I enjoyed it vastly. My only quibble was the referring to polygamy (many wives) when what the people of that word practice is polyandry (many husbands). A terrific story! Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 21:52:49 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: children's fsf Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Rose: Canadian writer Monica Hughes writes wonderful children's sf and often uses strong female protagonists. Here are a few titles: Crisis on Conshelf Ten Devil on my Back The Dream Catcher Earthdark The Guardian of Isis Invitation to the Game The Isis Pedlar The Promise Ring-Rise, Ring-Set Sandwriter Space Trap Spirit River *The Tomorrow City *The Keeper of the Isis Light I have used the last two in a grade 8 English class and have been pleased with the results. I don't know about the availability of her work in Australia. ---------- >From: Rose Reith >To: feministsf@UIC.EDU >Subject: [*FSFFU*] >Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001, 2:22 AM > >Hello, >I am forwarding this from another list I am on (children's >literature). The writer who is from Sydney, Australia, is searching >for science fiction texts. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:04:04 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <1545808458.997978221@dhcp-136-0222.unm.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think we had a v similar topic up for convo on this list about a year ago.... in fact, seems exactly the same. Going through the archoves would prob help. Id say that Not of WOman Born would be a good resource- lots of hybrids there. There's Man Plus by Freerick Pohl Maire "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Patricia Mathews > Sent: Friday, 17 August 2001 8:10 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg > > > --On Thursday, August 16, 2001 3:31 PM +0100 Angela Barclay > wrote: > > > Dear listmembers: > > (snip) > > > 2. Catherine Moore's Dierdre in "No Woman Born" (1944)- a > dancer who has > > her brain transplanted into a robotic body after nearly dying in a fire. > > (Thanks to Patricia Mathews who does a wonderful job of describing this > > story in Ted Staiclair's _The Feminine Eye: Science Fiction and > the Women > > who Write It_ (1982) > > Blush & many thanks. > > > > > 3. Anne McCaffery's Helva in "The Ship who Sang" (1974)- a > person with a > > deformed body but keen mind who is encased within and becomes the brain > > of a star ship. > > > > 4. The offspring of the earthlings and the Oankali in Octavia Butler's > > _Xenogenisis Trilogy_. > > > > If you're also looking at media, don't forget The Bionic > Woman! And note: > they could call her counterpart "The $6,000,000 Man", but with a woman > there would be too many jokes about that being her price! > > Pat > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 00:34:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer H Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <20010817031404.BIXB22609.priv-edtnes11-hme0.telusplanet.net@[161.184.55.1 96]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I think we definately see 'interpenetration of boundaries' (mental, physical >and emotional), 'problematic selves' (how the Oankali and Humans define >eachother, how Lilith and Joseph are discriminated against when they are >altered) and the 'exploration of possible worlds' (being open to the >possibilites and promises and pitfalls inherent in gene-trading). I think you would be interested in Brother Termite by Patricia Anthony and even more so in The White Queen and (sequel) Northwind by Gwyneth Jones. (It might not be apparent why Jones' books would fit your work until you read the second book --but heck they're a great read anyway). If you are using authors of both genders you definitely want to read The Fortunate Fall by Raphael Carter. Jennifer Hinds jhinds@wavetech.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:22:33 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: A roll of the die Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <000c01c1227c$9d4f6600$eaef1440@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just read it too... I liked it very much. I too was brought up short by the use of polygamy- though I hadnt actually realised that there was another word for multiple husbands. I believe that the golden character at the end is in some other of Asaro's books? I just started Primary Inversion so perhaps I will find out. We read Roll of Dice as short story of the week on another sf list I am on. ONe interesting comment that someone made, was that she gets annoyed when reading stories about ... (hang on, I am going to cut and paste) Pat said"Technology and society grow together in the society which creates the technology or the technology is not accepted. Grafting advanced technology onto a "backward" society results in prophecies of doom, gloom and sundry bad stuff. I wish SF authors would keep that in mind before they create Twelfth century culture colonies from Earth on other planets where people are using space ships." Now, she wasnt referring to ROll of Dice specifically, but made the comment in another thread when we wre all discussing RoD at the same time. And I think her commnet applies to RoD. Does anyone think thats right? I have read quite a few "science fantasy" books where there is a 'fantasy' type culture, ie fairly medieval seemingm, low tech anyway- yet there is also evidence of space flight etc. I guess some of the Darkover stores would come under that category also Maire "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Cynthia > Sent: Sunday, 12 August 2001 1:45 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] A roll of the die > > > Someone here alerted us tothe short story, "A Roll of the Die" by > Catherine > Asaro. I read it awhile back and I wanted to say I enjoyed it vastly. My > only quibble was the referring to polygamy (many wives) when what > the people > of that word practice is polyandry (many husbands). A terrific story! > > Cynthia > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 07:44:13 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: A roll of the die Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maire wrote: > We read Roll of Dice as short story of the week on another sf list I am on. > One interesting comment that someone made, was that she gets annoyed when > reading stories about ... (hang on, I am going to cut and paste) > Pat said "Technology and society > grow together in the society which creates the technology or the > technology is not accepted. Grafting advanced technology onto a > "backward" society results in prophecies of doom, gloom and sundry bad > stuff. > > I wish SF authors would keep that in mind before they create Twelfth > century culture colonies from Earth on other planets where people are > using space ships." > > Now, she wasn't referring to Roll of Dice specifically, but made the comment > in another thread when we were all discussing RoD at the same time. And I > think her comment applies to RoD. Does anyone think that's right? I have read > quite a few "science fantasy" books where there is a 'fantasy' type culture, > ie fairly medieval seeming, low tech anyway- yet there is also evidence of > space flight etc. I guess some of the Darkover stores would come under that > category also >From the very beginning of the Darkover series, Bradley _was_ dealing with the problems created by these technology-level culture clashes. As she (and SF) matured, the consideration of these matters did as well. Early SF, which tended to be uncritically technophile, didn't think about it as much; to this day BAD SF still often glosses over this sort of thing. -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey Cultures & Communities Program University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 08:03:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marianne Reddin Aldrich Subject: Re: A roll of the die Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Actually, polygamy refers (at least in modern usage, I don't remember my greek roots in terms of 'gam') to having many spouses, of either sex, though it *is* often used only in connection with wives. When I immigrated to the States, for example, I had to attest that I was not, nor would I become in the future, a bigamist. Polygyny is many wives, the exact cognate of polyandry. So really, Brigham Young and the polyandrists of Tibet were both polygamists. Marianne > >Someone here alerted us tothe short story, "A Roll of the Die" by Catherine >Asaro. I read it awhile back and I wanted to say I enjoyed it vastly. My >only quibble was the referring to polygamy (many wives) when what the >people >of that word practice is polyandry (many husbands). A terrific story! > >Cynthia > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > >Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:52:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: James Cherney Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you haven't seen it yet, be sure to get The Cyborg Handbook, edited by Charles Hables Gray with Heidi J. Figueroa-Sarriera and Steven Mentor and published by Routledge in 1995. It's a great collection. I've also published two essays engaging cyborg politics and people with disabilities. One looks at the cochlear implant debate as a contest between identity and cochlear implants ("Deaf Culture and the Cochlear Implant Debate: Cyborg Politics and the Identity of People with Disabilities," Argumentation and Advocacy 36 (1999): 22-34). The other reads Cronenberg's film Crash as a politically erotic presentation of the cyborg ("Sexy Cyborgs: Disability and Erotic Politics in Cronenberg's Crash," Screening Disability, eds. Anthony Enns and Christopher Smit, University Press of America, 2001). The latter may not yet be available. You ask some terrific questions that I could spend hours discussing. I suspect the rest of the list would rather we did that via backchannel. If interested, let me know. Later, jim chernejl@westminster.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:24:04 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gwen Veazey Subject: history MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009C_01C12706.BD35EF00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009C_01C12706.BD35EF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cynthia wrote:=20 what of all those poor women of centuries past who changed the shape of their = bodies (rearranging their innards) with corsettes and those women who wear = rings around their necks so their necks are very long? What about false = eyelashes? Wigs? Fake nails? Women have tended to cyberized themselves throughout history, haven't we?=20 History? Don't forget how many women NOW routinely go for electrolysis, = silicon and other implants, major facial and body surgery, liposuction.=20 Best, Gwen ------=_NextPart_000_009C_01C12706.BD35EF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Cynthia wrote:

what of
all those poor women of centuries past who changed the = shape of=20 their bodies
(rearranging their innards) with corsettes and those = women who=20 wear rings
around their necks so their necks are very long? What = about false=20 eyelashes?
Wigs? Fake nails? Women have tended to cyberized = themselves=20 throughout
history, haven't we?

History? Don't forget how many women NOW = routinely go=20 for electrolysis, silicon and other implants, major facial and body = surgery,=20 liposuction.

Best,

Gwen

------=_NextPart_000_009C_01C12706.BD35EF00-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 00:33:23 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would suggest Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton... Id say there would be interest immediatly cause of JP3 being released, it has a lot of biology and chem in it, (it was actually the text for a course I did in first year uni- using sf to teach science) Other texts used were the Word for World is Forest by le Guin, and a lot of short stories, incl. Blood Music by Greg Bear. I would second the motion for Slonczewski- she is a bio prof btw. Might be a bit 'old' though. I do think that short stories are a good idea for this sort of course. Teaching about the planets- sf can be an excellent tool- ie Mars, Venus by Ben Bova Joan Slonczewski teacjes a course at her college that uses sf to teach bio. The course has a web site with class lectures, reading materials and so on- I will dig up the URL. There are quite a few similar courses, all in the US. Except for the one I studies, which was through Murdoch Uiversity in Perth (I'm from Sydney) Kim Stanley Robinson's books are all educational (as are most of the hard sf writers) he has an incredibly realistic series set on mars during humans establishing a colony there- also one set in Antarctica- both contain a lot of scientific knowledge (have to go- daughter woken up, will wite more when think of it) Maire "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Rose Reith > Sent: Friday, 17 August 2001 11:23 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: [*FSFFU*] > > > Hello, > I am forwarding this from another list I am on (children's > literature). The writer who is from Sydney, Australia, is searching > for science fiction texts. I mentioned Nancy Kress and Joan > Slonczewski, and Alice Nunn because I heard about her from this list, > but I was wondering if you all had any other suggestions for her, > especially suggestions that might be more available in Australia... > > Thanks for any help. You can reply directly to her or I will > collect responses from the list and send them to her. > > Thank-you, > > Rose > > > At 4:22 PM +1000 8/16/01, Jacqueline Hicks wrote: > >Hi folk, > > > >I have an academic writing a course proposal for the NSW Dept of > Education > >and Training, which would become a syllabus for the final 2 years of > >schooling. She is looking for science fiction texts which could > be used to > >draw students unenthusiastic about science into the learning process. I > >have seen some wonderful suggestions come from this list over > the years and > >am wondering if anyone has any ideas. The course is to focus on Chemistry > >and Biology and could use fiction and non-fiction. There have been some > >wonderful non-fiction books dealing with forensics and medicine published > >which I have suggested, but I am stumped for the science fiction area. > > > >I would be grateful for any suggestions. > > > >Cheers, > >Jacquei > > > >Jacquei Hicks > >Curriculum Librarian > >Alexander Mackie Curriculum Resources Library > >Old Teachers College Building (A22) > >University of Sydney NSW 2006 > > > >Phone: 61 2 9351 6252 > >Fax: 61 2 9351 7766 > > > >Email: jhicks@library.usyd.edu.au > > > >Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. > >Professionals built the Titanic. > > > >'Draco dormiens nunquam > >titillandus', 'Never tickle a sleeping dragon'. > -- > Information is not knowledge. > ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 07:08:13 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: A roll of the die Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually, polygamy refers (at least in modern usage, I don't remember my > greek roots in terms of 'gam') to having many spouses, of either sex, though > it *is* often used only in connection with wives. > When I immigrated to the States, for example, I had to attest that I was > not, nor would I become in the future, a bigamist. > Polygyny is many wives, the exact cognate of polyandry. > So really, Brigham Young and the polyandrists of Tibet were both > polygamists. She's right, here, according to dictionary.com. Polygyny is the one that's specific to having more than one wife, though one source at dictionary.com lists them as synonyms of each other. Not sure of the root of the GAM, and how it's different from the GYN root of the other. *shrug* -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:28:40 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Kim Stanley Robinson's books are all educational (as are most of the hard sf > writers) he has an incredibly realistic series set on mars during humans > establishing a colony there- also one set in Antarctica- both contain a lot > of scientific knowledge I would like to enter the caution that just because a book has good science in it doesn't make it a good book. If you want to add sf to interest non-science majors, that all fine and good, but keep in mind that if you are trying to lure students whose interests lie in literature and theater and they are not apt to like some of these books. Robinson's Red Mars such students are apt to find dull, aggravating, and slightly immoral (my reaction to the work and the same reaction my other literature/theater/general artsy friends and acquaintances had to it). They won't be happy be required to read books that have lesser or no aesthetic value and would rather jut the science text itself please which is interesting and isn't an insult to their disciplines. This last may sound harsh, but younger people can be quite harsh in their attitudes and won't be thinking "Oh this nice teacher wants us to have fun while we read." They'll be thinking aggravated and cranky things. Part of this stems from the fact that non-science majors and (later in life professionals) still are told by science majors and scientists that they their interests take less brains. This actually happened at a professional conference. A man gave a humorous talk about taking science terms and using them inother fields. His point was basically don't because you don't know what you are doing because you are dumb. (Boy were people in that audience mad). However, since through his whole talk he consistantly misapplied the word metaphor which is not, as we all know, a science term, I politely and easily shot down his argument, cheering up a great number of people. So my point after this ramble, be sure you know your audience. If they are literature minded students the books will have to be aesthetically sound as well as scientific. Otherwise you will meet with resistance. Such students would often really rather just read the science text. Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 20:43:54 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: A roll of the die Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > She's right, here, according to dictionary.com. Polygyny is the one > that's specific to having more than one wife, though one source at > dictionary.com lists them as synonyms of each other. So concurs the OED, however, my objection was more that polyandry should be used because the society wanted the men virginal till marriage and the woman could marry more than one man while the story implied men could not. The switch of so Earth patriarchal stories. Regarding the culture and the techno beign out of sinch (how do you spell the short of sinchronized?) this didn't strike me as happening in this story. The culture struck me as having less technology than the other places and so was in the process of acquiring it. The character didn't complain about the lack of indoor plumbing, so assumed that really important piece of technology was in place. I think this brings up the issue of how we are we to read sf? Can we, should we, read it, at least in part, as we do a haiku--looking for the overtones and suggested meanings? I read all literature this way, as so felt the story implied the society was truly polyandrous and that the culture was suffiencient meshing with the technology for the culture to want the superior technology of the other worlds. This made me bothered on the p word point, but not on the cultural-technological front. Do people think sf as a genre should be read more narrowly than other forms of literature, requiring the proper science be clearly expressed? I think good arguments can be made either way, so I'd like to hear what people think. Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:57:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" , barclaya@TELUSPLANET.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angela Barclay wrote: > I'm writing to pick your brains on a central premise of my thesis project. > I am looking for some more examples of how we are cyborgs and how our > experience is cyborg and would be pleased with your imput on any of the > following questions. > > Cultural theorist and philosopher of science Donna Haraway puts forth the > concept of cyberfeminism in _The Cyborg Manifesto (1985, 1991)_. In ultra > simple terms, just as the cyborg is a hybrid of machine and organism or > animal and human or the physical and non-physical; the cyberfeminism that > Haraway theorizes is a collective of feminists who are open to the differing > standpoints of other feminists of different races, ages, genders, classes > and cultural standpoints. This sounds like it would be a marvelous topic for a discussion (or a whole string of discussions) at Wiscon, Angela; when is the thesis due? -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:16:43 +0200 Reply-To: thomas@ifi.uio.no Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Thomas Gramstad Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu In-Reply-To: Patricia Mathews 's message of Thu, 16 Aug 2001 16:10:21 -0600 FYI, Donna Haraway's _The Cyborg Manifesto_ is available here: . You may also want to check out . Thomas Gramstad thomas@ifi.uio.no "[I]t should be pointed out that the publishers want to transform public libraries into pay-per-use, retail outlets. So they're against public libraries." -- Richard M. Stallman (Copyright and Globalization in the Age of Computer Networks, ) -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:21:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia: Oh my. Since the semester is about to start and great honking heavy workloads will make life a lot less easygoing, could you please tell more of this story? Offlist if others would prefer. This is an issue that has concerned me since before I became an English major. I was a psychology/sociology double major in a past life, and there the problem was the inferiority complex that many in the behavioral sciences seemed to hold with regard to the so-called "hard" sciences. I am now in a field that is constantly and vocally accused of being full of airheads--according to the science types, that is--and yet, the people I've met so far have tended to be brilliant. And I can point to my own test scores--yes, even in the sciences--and taste in recreational reading (which covers _everything_ except management treatises--ick), and say that I really don't think I or the rest of the people I work with are just airy-fairy humanities types, easily dismissable because we aren't physicists. Here's my salvo: I would bet my next paycheck that the _majority_ of humanities majors are far more broadly read than the _majority_ of science and/or technical fields majors. Ask most engineers or biochemists questions that require a reading background in history, anthropology, mythology, literature, politics, religion, or any of the many other fields that go into a good spec-fic novel, and you're fairly likely to get a blank face. Ask a humanities major a science question, and you might very well get an answer that could be better-informed, or one that comes from pop science rather than technical journals. But you WILL get an answer. There WILL be an indication that the person is interested enough in the way all the categories of existence fit together to try and go to the sciences to find answers that other fields might not provide. There will be an awareness that there's more than one way to skin an intellectual cat, so to speak. Just my two cents whilst not putting together my fall syllabus... Sheryl > Part of this stems from the fact >that non-science majors and (later in life professionals) still are told by >science majors and scientists that they their interests take less brains. >This actually happened at a professional conference. A man gave a humorous >talk about taking science terms and using them inother fields. His point was >basically don't because you don't know what you are doing because you are >dumb. (Boy were people in that audience mad). However, since through his >whole talk he consistantly misapplied the word metaphor which is not, as we >all know, a science term, I politely and easily shot down his argument, >cheering up a great number of people. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:35:45 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: our cyborg history Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3080892947_286780_MIME_Part" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3080892947_286780_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gwen et. al.: I can see how 'adding to' our bodies with eyeglasses, hearing aids, jewelry, pacemakers, falsies . . . makes us cyborgs- but I wonder whether 'taking away from' as in plastic surgery; or shaving, plucking, waxing or lazering counts. The latter can change ones appearance quite dramatically, but does it count as cyborization? (or would you say 'cyborgization'? 'cyberization'?) ---------- From: Gwen Veazey To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Subject: [*FSFFU*] history Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001, 3:24 PM Cynthia wrote: what of all those poor women of centuries past who changed the shape of their bodies (rearranging their innards) with corsettes and those women who wear rings around their necks so their necks are very long? What about false eyelashes? Wigs? Fake nails? Women have tended to cyberized themselves throughout history, haven't we? History? Don't forget how many women NOW routinely go for electrolysis, silicon and other implants, major facial and body surgery, liposuction. Best, Gwen --MS_Mac_OE_3080892947_286780_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: our cyborg history Gwen et. al.:

I can see how 'adding to' our bodies with eyeglasses, hearing aids, jewelry= , pacemakers, falsies . . . makes us cyborgs- but I wonder whether 'taking a= way from' as in plastic surgery; or shaving, plucking, waxing or lazering co= unts. The latter can change ones appearance quite dramatically, but do= es it count as cyborization? (or would you say 'cyborgization'? 'cyberizatio= n'?)
----------
From: Gwen Veazey <gveazey@VISTATECH.NET>
To: feministsf@UIC.EDU
Subject: [*FSFFU*] history
Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001, 3:24 PM

Cynthia wrote:

what of
all those poor women of centuries past who changed the shape of their bodie= s
(rearranging their innards) with corsettes and those women who wear rings around their necks so their necks are very long? What about false eyelashes= ?
Wigs? Fake nails? Women have tended to cyberized themselves throughout
history, haven't we?

History? Don't forget how many women NOW routinely go = for electrolysis, silicon and other implants, major facial and body surgery,= liposuction.

Best,
Gwen

--MS_Mac_OE_3080892947_286780_MIME_Part-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:40:17 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B942BA509DB1C9A84C64D868" --------------B942BA509DB1C9A84C64D868 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angela Barclay wrote: > Dear listmembers: > > I'm writing to pick your brains on a central premise of my thesis project. > I am looking for some more examples of how we are cyborgs and how our > experience is cyborg and would be pleased with your imput on any of the > following questions. > > Cultural theorist and philosopher of science Donna Haraway puts forth the > concept of cyberfeminism in _The Cyborg Manifesto (1985, 1991)_. In ultra > simple terms, just as the cyborg is a hybrid of machine and organism or > animal and human or the physical and non-physical; the cyberfeminism that > Haraway theorizes is a collective of feminists who are open to the differing > standpoints of other feminists of different races, ages, genders, classes > and cultural standpoints. > > Question One: While Haraway's ideas are fascinating and I believe relevant- > she is notoriously hard to understand. Does anyone have any thoughts about > or interpretations of Haraway they'd like to share? > > Question Two: Is Haraway's cyberfeminism just a myth or a dream or does it > really exhist? Can you give examples of 'cyberfeminist' coalitions or > collectives or experiences? Could our listserve be called a cyberfeminist > coalition? Why or why not? > > Question Three: Everyday experiences of being cyborg include the transplant > of animal organs into humans (I need specific examples here); prothestic > experiences of using a fork, riding a bicycle, operating a computer; and > wearing glasses or hearing aids or a pacemaker. Can you think of others? > > Question Four: I could use more examples of fictional cyborgs, particularly > female cyborgs. So far I've got: > > 1. (Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_ of course.) > > 2. Catherine Moore's Dierdre in "No Woman Born" (1944)- a dancer who has > her brain transplanted into a robotic body after nearly dying in a fire. > (Thanks to Patricia Mathews who does a wonderful job of describing this > story in Ted Staiclair's _The Feminine Eye: Science Fiction and the Women > who Write It_ (1982) > > 3. Anne McCaffery's Helva in "The Ship who Sang" (1974)- a person with a > deformed body but keen mind who is encased within and becomes the brain of a > star ship. > > 4. The offspring of the earthlings and the Oankali in Octavia Butler's > _Xenogenisis Trilogy_. > > I know Pat Cadigan writes cyberpunk but have not yet read her works. Are > there any in particular that highlight cyborgs? > > Thanks from Angela who is getting tired of 'being one' with this computer! > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. If you have not read it, look into Samuel R. Delany 's "Reading at Work...," a sympathetic dissection of Haraway in his Longer Views: Extended Essays (UP of New England, 1996). Dave Samuelson --------------B942BA509DB1C9A84C64D868 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angela Barclay wrote:

Dear listmembers:
I'm writing to pick your brains on a central premise of my thesis project.
I am looking for some more examples of how we are cyborgs and how our
experience is cyborg and would be pleased with your imput on any of the
following questions.
Cultural theorist and philosopher of science Donna Haraway puts forth the
concept of cyberfeminism in _The Cyborg Manifesto (1985, 1991)_. In ultra
simple terms, just as the cyborg is a hybrid of machine and organism or
animal and human or the physical and non-physical; the cyberfeminism that
Haraway theorizes is a collective of feminists who are open to the differing
standpoints of other feminists of different races, ages, genders, classes
and cultural standpoints.
Question One: While Haraway's ideas are fascinating and I believe relevant-
she is notoriously hard to understand. Does anyone have any thoughts about
or interpretations of Haraway they'd like to share?
Question Two: Is Haraway's cyberfeminism just a myth or a dream or does it
really exhist? Can you give examples of 'cyberfeminist' coalitions or
collectives or experiences? Could our listserve be called a cyberfeminist
coalition? Why or why not?
Question Three: Everyday experiences of being cyborg include the transplant
of animal organs into humans (I need specific examples here); prothestic
experiences of using a fork, riding a bicycle, operating a computer; and
wearing glasses or hearing aids or a pacemaker. Can you think of others?
Question Four: I could use more examples of fictional cyborgs, particularly
female cyborgs. So far I've got:
1. (Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_ of course.)
2. Catherine Moore's Dierdre in "No Woman Born" (1944)- a dancer who has
her brain transplanted into a robotic body after nearly dying in a fire.
(Thanks to Patricia Mathews who does a wonderful job of describing this
story in Ted Staiclair's _The Feminine Eye: Science Fiction and the Women
who Write It_ (1982)
3. Anne McCaffery's Helva in "The Ship who Sang" (1974)- a person with a
deformed body but keen mind who is encased within and becomes the brain of a
star ship.
4. The offspring of the earthlings and the Oankali in Octavia Butler's
_Xenogenisis Trilogy_.
I know Pat Cadigan writes cyberpunk but have not yet read her works. Are
there any in particular that highlight cyborgs?
Thanks from Angela who is getting tired of 'being one' with this computer!
--------------------------------------------------
This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for
discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To
unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to
LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say:
unsubscribe feministsf
Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems.

If you have not read it, look into Samuel R. Delany 's "Reading at Work...," a sympathetic dissection of Haraway in his Longer Views: Extended Essays (UP of New England, 1996).

Dave Samuelson
--------------B942BA509DB1C9A84C64D868-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:42:36 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: A roll of the die Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 8/17/01 12:22 AM, Maire at mairen@BIGPOND.COM wrote: > I just read it too... I liked it very much. I too was brought up short by > the use of polygamy- though I hadnt actually realised that there was another > word for multiple husbands. I believe that the golden character at the end > is in some other of Asaro's books? I just started Primary Inversion so > perhaps I will find out. > We read Roll of Dice as short story of the week on another sf list I am on. > ONe interesting comment that someone made, was that she gets annoyed when > reading stories about ... (hang on, I am going to cut and paste) > Pat said"Technology and society > grow together in the society which creates the technology or the > technology is not accepted. Grafting advanced technology onto a > "backward" society results in prophecies of doom, gloom and sundry bad > stuff. > > I wish SF authors would keep that in mind before they create Twelfth > century culture colonies from Earth on other planets where people are > using space ships." > > Now, she wasnt referring to ROll of Dice specifically, but made the comment > in another thread when we wre all discussing RoD at the same time. And I > think her commnet applies to RoD. Does anyone think thats right? I have read > quite a few "science fantasy" books where there is a 'fantasy' type culture, > ie fairly medieval seemingm, low tech anyway- yet there is also evidence of > space flight etc. I guess some of the Darkover stores would come under that > category also > > Maire > > > > "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here > today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." > > Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature >> [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Cynthia >> Sent: Sunday, 12 August 2001 1:45 AM >> To: feministsf@UIC.EDU >> Subject: [*FSFFU*] A roll of the die >> >> >> Someone here alerted us tothe short story, "A Roll of the Die" by >> Catherine >> Asaro. I read it awhile back and I wanted to say I enjoyed it vastly. My >> only quibble was the referring to polygamy (many wives) when what >> the people >> of that word practice is polyandry (many husbands). A terrific story! >> >> Cynthia >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for >> discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >> unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: >> unsubscribe feministsf >> >> Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Actually, polygyny is the term for multiple wives; polygamy is the more general term, meaning multiple spouses. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:43:27 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: A roll of the die Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 8/17/01 6:03 AM, Marianne Reddin Aldrich at marseillaise@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > Actually, polygamy refers (at least in modern usage, I don't remember my > greek roots in terms of 'gam') to having many spouses, of either sex, though > it *is* often used only in connection with wives. > When I immigrated to the States, for example, I had to attest that I was > not, nor would I become in the future, a bigamist. > Polygyny is many wives, the exact cognate of polyandry. > So really, Brigham Young and the polyandrists of Tibet were both > polygamists. > > Marianne That's what I get for not reading all messages before responding. Sorry for the redundancy. >> Someone here alerted us tothe short story, "A Roll of the Die" by Catherine >> Asaro. I read it awhile back and I wanted to say I enjoyed it vastly. My >> only quibble was the referring to polygamy (many wives) when what the >> people >> of that word practice is polyandry (many husbands). A terrific story! >> >> Cynthia >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for >> discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >> unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: >> unsubscribe feministsf >> >> Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:44:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: A roll of the die Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <3B7D254D.F6F2D4DE@yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 8/17/01 7:08 AM, Sandy Cronin at sandylcronin@YAHOO.COM wrote: >> Actually, polygamy refers (at least in modern usage, I don't remember my >> greek roots in terms of 'gam') to having many spouses, of either sex, though >> it *is* often used only in connection with wives. >> When I immigrated to the States, for example, I had to attest that I was >> not, nor would I become in the future, a bigamist. >> Polygyny is many wives, the exact cognate of polyandry. >> So really, Brigham Young and the polyandrists of Tibet were both >> polygamists. > > She's right, here, according to dictionary.com. Polygyny is the one > that's specific to having more than one wife, though one source at > dictionary.com lists them as synonyms of each other. Not sure of the > root of the GAM, and how it's different from the GYN root of the other. GAM comes from the Greek root Gamos, meaning marriage. > *shrug* > > -Sandy > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:55:02 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: A roll of the dice Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <002e01c122e1$03048b60$73ef1440@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I was just wondering if you had read Asaro's book The Last Hawk. It is also about the planet Coba and gives much more detail about the society and lack of technology. It is set many years before "A Roll of the Dice" and is about another man who becomes a Calani. As for how I read SF (and everything else), I'm always looking for the deeper meaning. Technical science isn't as important for me as a good story, character development, etc. But if the science is inaccurate, I get annoyed. I usually prefer social SF to hard SF. Jennifer At 08:43 PM 8/11/01 -0700, you wrote: >Regarding the culture and the techno beign out of sinch (how do you spell >the short of sinchronized?) this didn't strike me as happening in this >story. The culture struck me as having less technology than the other >places and so was in the process of acquiring it. The character didn't >complain about the lack of indoor plumbing, so assumed that really important >piece of technology was in place. I think this brings up the issue of how >we are we to read sf? Can we, should we, read it, at least in part, as we >do a haiku--looking for the overtones and suggested meanings? I read all >literature this way, as so felt the story implied the society was truly >polyandrous and that the culture was suffiencient meshing with the >technology for the culture to want the superior technology of the other >worlds. This made me bothered on the p word point, but not on the >cultural-technological front. Do people think sf as a genre should be read >more narrowly than other forms of literature, requiring the proper science >be clearly expressed? I think good arguments can be made either way, so I'd >like to hear what people think. >Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 14:39:47 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: children's fsf Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <20010817034824.ZFPR838.priv-edtnes10-hme0.telusplanet.net@[161.184.55.196 ]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Angela, Thanks again for this list too. The Isis books are ones I am planning to look into once my time is my own again. I've seen them mentioned on the other list too... I'll pass the list along also. Rose >Rose: > >Canadian writer Monica Hughes writes wonderful children's sf and often uses >strong female protagonists. Here are a few titles: > >Crisis on Conshelf Ten >Devil on my Back >The Dream Catcher >Earthdark >The Guardian of Isis >Invitation to the Game >The Isis Pedlar >The Promise >Ring-Rise, Ring-Set >Sandwriter >Space Trap >Spirit River >*The Tomorrow City >*The Keeper of the Isis Light > >I have used the last two in a grade 8 English class and have been pleased >with the results. > >I don't know about the availability of her work in Australia. > > >---------- >>From: Rose Reith >>To: feministsf@UIC.EDU >>Subject: [*FSFFU*] >>Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001, 2:22 AM >> > >>Hello, >>I am forwarding this from another list I am on (children's >>literature). The writer who is from Sydney, Australia, is searching >>for science fiction texts. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > >Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:37:50 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <002801c122de$e25219c0$73ef1440@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought they were Y 8 students? ie, only 14- not specifiying in anything yet. Also- I chose books *only* in terms of containing science. Why on earht are the Mars series immoral? You'll have to explain that one, I thought that rather bizarre Maire "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Cynthia > Sent: Sunday, 12 August 2001 1:29 PM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] > > > > Kim Stanley Robinson's books are all educational (as are most > of the hard > sf > > writers) he has an incredibly realistic series set on mars during humans > > establishing a colony there- also one set in Antarctica- both contain a > lot > > of scientific knowledge > > I would like to enter the caution that just because a book has > good science > in it doesn't make it a good book. If you want to add sf to interest > non-science majors, that all fine and good, but keep in mind that > if you are > trying to lure students whose interests lie in literature and theater and > they are not apt to like some of these books. Robinson's Red Mars such > students are apt to find dull, aggravating, and slightly immoral (my > reaction to the work and the same reaction my other > literature/theater/general artsy friends and acquaintances had to > it). They > won't be happy be required to read books that have lesser or no aesthetic > value and would rather jut the science text itself please which is > interesting and isn't an insult to their disciplines. This last may sound > harsh, but younger people can be quite harsh in their attitudes > and won't be > thinking "Oh this nice teacher wants us to have fun while we > read." They'll > be thinking aggravated and cranky things. Part of this stems > from the fact > that non-science majors and (later in life professionals) still > are told by > science majors and scientists that they their interests take less brains. > This actually happened at a professional conference. A man gave > a humorous > talk about taking science terms and using them inother fields. > His point was > basically don't because you don't know what you are doing because you are > dumb. (Boy were people in that audience mad). However, since through his > whole talk he consistantly misapplied the word metaphor which is > not, as we > all know, a science term, I politely and easily shot down his argument, > cheering up a great number of people. > > So my point after this ramble, be sure you know your audience. > If they are > literature minded students the books will have to be > aesthetically sound as > well as scientific. Otherwise you will meet with resistance. Such students > would often really rather just read the science text. > > Cynthia > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:43:06 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: A roll of the die Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <002e01c122e1$03048b60$73ef1440@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The culture struck me as having less technology than the other > places and so was in the process of acquiring it. The character didn't > complain about the lack of indoor plumbing, so assumed that > really important > piece of technology was in place. I think the fact that there *was* such technology is the point. the society in the book, ie the actual *culture* was one I at least would associate with a fairly low tech, backwards type society. Yet, they had all this tech, ie flyers, space craft. Is there a conflict there? Maire "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Cynthia > Sent: Sunday, 12 August 2001 1:44 PM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] A roll of the die > > > > She's right, here, according to dictionary.com. Polygyny is the one > > that's specific to having more than one wife, though one source at > > dictionary.com lists them as synonyms of each other. > > So concurs the OED, however, my objection was more that polyandry > should be > used because the society wanted the men virginal till marriage > and the woman > could marry more than one man while the story implied men could not. The > switch of so Earth patriarchal stories. > > Regarding the culture and the techno beign out of sinch (how do you spell > the short of sinchronized?) this didn't strike me as happening in this > story. The culture struck me as having less technology than the other > places and so was in the process of acquiring it. The character didn't > complain about the lack of indoor plumbing, so assumed that > really important > piece of technology was in place. I think this brings up the issue of how > we are we to read sf? Can we, should we, read it, at least in part, as we > do a haiku--looking for the overtones and suggested meanings? I read all > literature this way, as so felt the story implied the society was truly > polyandrous and that the culture was suffiencient meshing with the > technology for the culture to want the superior technology of the other > worlds. This made me bothered on the p word point, but not on the > cultural-technological front. Do people think sf as a genre > should be read > more narrowly than other forms of literature, requiring the proper science > be clearly expressed? I think good arguments can be made either > way, so I'd > like to hear what people think. > > Cynthia > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:49:22 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <009d01c12738$9e1654c0$c3cf343f@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sheryl wrote: Here's my salvo: I would bet my next paycheck that the _majority_ of humanities majors are far more broadly read than the _majority_ of science and/or technical fields majors. Ask most engineers or biochemists questions that require a reading background in history, anthropology, mythology, literature, politics, religion, or any of the many other fields that go into a good spec-fic novel, and you're fairly likely to get a blank face. Ask a humanities major a science question, and you might very well get an answer that could be better-informed, or one that comes from pop science rather than technical journals. But you WILL get an answer. There WILL be an indication that the person is interested enough in the way all the categories of existence fit together to try and go to the sciences to find answers that other fields might not provide. There will be an awareness that there's more than one way to skin an intellectual cat, so to speak. First of all, I disagree with that. And secondly, that is only a valid point- if you then turn around to the humanities people and ask them questions about engineering, mathematics, science - and- get an answer from them. Its not fair saying that science based peoples arent as smart, or well-read or wahteever you are syaing, then humanities peoples, because if you ask the science people humanities queswtions, they cant answer, wheras the humanities people can. I hardly think that proves anything. Maire "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jocelyn & Sheryl > Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2001 2:21 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Science vs humanities TAN > > > Cynthia: > > Oh my. Since the semester is about to start and great honking heavy > workloads will make life a lot less easygoing, could you please > tell more of > this story? Offlist if others would prefer. This is an issue that has > concerned me since before I became an English major. I was a > psychology/sociology double major in a past life, and there the > problem was > the inferiority complex that many in the behavioral sciences > seemed to hold > with regard to the so-called "hard" sciences. I am now in a field that is > constantly and vocally accused of being full of airheads--according to the > science types, that is--and yet, the people I've met so far have tended to > be brilliant. And I can point to my own test scores--yes, even in the > sciences--and taste in recreational reading (which covers _everything_ > except management treatises--ick), and say that I really don't think I or > the rest of the people I work with are just airy-fairy humanities types, > easily dismissable because we aren't physicists. > > Here's my salvo: I would bet my next paycheck that the _majority_ of > humanities majors are far more broadly read than the _majority_ of science > and/or technical fields majors. Ask most engineers or > biochemists questions > that require a reading background in history, anthropology, mythology, > literature, politics, religion, or any of the many other fields > that go into > a good spec-fic novel, and you're fairly likely to get a blank > face. Ask a > humanities major a science question, and you might very well get an answer > that could be better-informed, or one that comes from pop science rather > than technical journals. But you WILL get an answer. There WILL be an > indication that the person is interested enough in the way all the > categories of existence fit together to try and go to the sciences to find > answers that other fields might not provide. There will be an awareness > that there's more than one way to skin an intellectual cat, so to speak. > > Just my two cents whilst not putting together my fall syllabus... > > Sheryl > > > > Part of this stems from the fact > >that non-science majors and (later in life professionals) still > are told by > >science majors and scientists that they their interests take less brains. > >This actually happened at a professional conference. A man gave > a humorous > >talk about taking science terms and using them inother fields. His point > was > >basically don't because you don't know what you are doing because you are > >dumb. (Boy were people in that audience mad). However, since through his > >whole talk he consistantly misapplied the word metaphor which is > not, as we > >all know, a science term, I politely and easily shot down his argument, > >cheering up a great number of people. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 23:14:52 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Maire, Thanks for the suggestions. I think they all have possibilities. I hadn't known that Slonczewski is a bio prof. That does explain a bit about her work though. I have enjoyed her books so far, but I still have to read _Brain Plague_. I haven't read Kim Stanley Robinson's yet either, but I plan to get to them. I will forward all the suggestions to Jacquei anyway and she can send them on the prof who's makeing the course list. Rose >I would suggest Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton... Id say there would be >interest immediatly cause of JP3 being released, it has a lot of biology and >chem in it, (it was actually the text for a course I did in first year uni- >using sf to teach science) Other texts used were the Word for World is >Forest by le Guin, and a lot of short stories, incl. Blood Music by Greg >Bear. >I would second the motion for Slonczewski- she is a bio prof btw. Might be >a bit 'old' though. >I do think that short stories are a good idea for this sort of course. >Teaching about the planets- sf can be an excellent tool- ie Mars, Venus by >Ben Bova >Joan Slonczewski teacjes a course at her college that uses sf to teach bio. >The course has a web site with class lectures, reading materials and so on- >I will dig up the URL. >There are quite a few similar courses, all in the US. Except for the one I >studies, which was through Murdoch Uiversity in Perth (I'm from Sydney) >Kim Stanley Robinson's books are all educational (as are most of the hard sf >writers) he has an incredibly realistic series set on mars during humans >establishing a colony there- also one set in Antarctica- both contain a lot >of scientific knowledge >(have to go- daughter woken up, will wite more when think of it) >Maire > > > >"There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here >today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." > >Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature >> [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Rose Reith >> Sent: Friday, 17 August 2001 11:23 AM >> To: feministsf@UIC.EDU >> Subject: [*FSFFU*] >> >> >> Hello, >> I am forwarding this from another list I am on (children's >> literature). The writer who is from Sydney, Australia, is searching >> for science fiction texts. I mentioned Nancy Kress and Joan >> Slonczewski, and Alice Nunn because I heard about her from this list, >> but I was wondering if you all had any other suggestions for her, >> especially suggestions that might be more available in Australia... >> >> Thanks for any help. You can reply directly to her or I will >> collect responses from the list and send them to her. >> >> Thank-you, >> >> Rose >> >> >> At 4:22 PM +1000 8/16/01, Jacqueline Hicks wrote: >> >Hi folk, >> > >> >I have an academic writing a course proposal for the NSW Dept of >> Education >> >and Training, which would become a syllabus for the final 2 years of >> >schooling. She is looking for science fiction texts which could >> be used to >> >draw students unenthusiastic about science into the learning process. I >> >have seen some wonderful suggestions come from this list over >> the years and >> >am wondering if anyone has any ideas. The course is to focus on Chemistry >> >and Biology and could use fiction and non-fiction. There have been some >> >wonderful non-fiction books dealing with forensics and medicine published >> >which I have suggested, but I am stumped for the science fiction area. >> > >> >I would be grateful for any suggestions. >> > >> >Cheers, >> >Jacquei >> > >> >Jacquei Hicks >> >Curriculum Librarian >> >Alexander Mackie Curriculum Resources Library >> >Old Teachers College Building (A22) >> >University of Sydney NSW 2006 >> > >> >Phone: 61 2 9351 6252 >> >Fax: 61 2 9351 7766 >> > >> >Email: jhicks@library.usyd.edu.au >> > >> >Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. >> >Professionals built the Titanic. >> > > > >'Draco dormiens nunquam >> >titillandus', 'Never tickle a sleeping dragon'. >> -- >> Information is not knowledge. >> ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for >> discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >> unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: >> unsubscribe feministsf >> >> Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > >Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:30:29 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dave Samuelson Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------167EF53006DCE3F528469A77" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------167EF53006DCE3F528469A77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is an old argument (cf. C. P. Snow and the "Two Cultures" or go all the way back to T. H. Huxley), and I side professionally with (accomplished) English majors, but we are comparing apples and salt mines. Scientists can fairly say we lack depth as much as we say they lack breadth. Most students (and faculty) of both persuasions are shallow, but literary/cultural reading is accretive and recursive and deliberately diverse, while scientific reading is increasingly narrow and empowers and supplements practice. Our "practice" is more critical (teaching, writing) than instructive in how to do something specific, unless that something is more reading and writing. We can also say we teach "how to live," but a lot of that is cant. I speak as someone who spent an unsuccessful year (long ago--1956-57) on scholarship at MIT, then flirted with anthropology before moving to English and then Comparative Literature. I still read a lot of popular science and tend to seek sound science in my sf (though I also read and teach and write about fantasy and utopia, not to mention my more "respectable" fields of 20th Century English, literary criticism, and technical writing). Dave Samuelson Maire wrote: > Sheryl wrote: Here's my salvo: I would bet my next paycheck that the > _majority_ of > humanities majors are far more broadly read than the _majority_ of science > and/or technical fields majors. Ask most engineers or biochemists questions > that require a reading background in history, anthropology, mythology, > literature, politics, religion, or any of the many other fields that go into > a good spec-fic novel, and you're fairly likely to get a blank face. Ask a > humanities major a science question, and you might very well get an answer > that could be better-informed, or one that comes from pop science rather > than technical journals. But you WILL get an answer. There WILL be an > indication that the person is interested enough in the way all the > categories of existence fit together to try and go to the sciences to find > answers that other fields might not provide. There will be an awareness > that there's more than one way to skin an intellectual cat, so to speak. > > First of all, I disagree with that. > And secondly, that is only a valid point- if you then turn around to the > humanities people and ask them questions about engineering, mathematics, > science - and- get an answer from them. > Its not fair saying that science based peoples arent as smart, or > well-read or wahteever you are syaing, then humanities peoples, because if > you ask the science people humanities queswtions, they cant answer, wheras > the humanities people can. I hardly think that proves anything. > Maire > > "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here > today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." > > Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jocelyn & Sheryl > > Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2001 2:21 AM > > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Science vs humanities TAN > > > > > > Cynthia: > > > > Oh my. Since the semester is about to start and great honking heavy > > workloads will make life a lot less easygoing, could you please > > tell more of > > this story? Offlist if others would prefer. This is an issue that has > > concerned me since before I became an English major. I was a > > psychology/sociology double major in a past life, and there the > > problem was > > the inferiority complex that many in the behavioral sciences > > seemed to hold > > with regard to the so-called "hard" sciences. I am now in a field that is > > constantly and vocally accused of being full of airheads--according to the > > science types, that is--and yet, the people I've met so far have tended to > > be brilliant. And I can point to my own test scores--yes, even in the > > sciences--and taste in recreational reading (which covers _everything_ > > except management treatises--ick), and say that I really don't think I or > > the rest of the people I work with are just airy-fairy humanities types, > > easily dismissable because we aren't physicists. > > > > Here's my salvo: I would bet my next paycheck that the _majority_ of > > humanities majors are far more broadly read than the _majority_ of science > > and/or technical fields majors. Ask most engineers or > > biochemists questions > > that require a reading background in history, anthropology, mythology, > > literature, politics, religion, or any of the many other fields > > that go into > > a good spec-fic novel, and you're fairly likely to get a blank > > face. Ask a > > humanities major a science question, and you might very well get an answer > > that could be better-informed, or one that comes from pop science rather > > than technical journals. But you WILL get an answer. There WILL be an > > indication that the person is interested enough in the way all the > > categories of existence fit together to try and go to the sciences to find > > answers that other fields might not provide. There will be an awareness > > that there's more than one way to skin an intellectual cat, so to speak. > > > > Just my two cents whilst not putting together my fall syllabus... > > > > Sheryl > > > > > > > Part of this stems from the fact > > >that non-science majors and (later in life professionals) still > > are told by > > >science majors and scientists that they their interests take less brains. > > >This actually happened at a professional conference. A man gave > > a humorous > > >talk about taking science terms and using them inother fields. His point > > was > > >basically don't because you don't know what you are doing because you are > > >dumb. (Boy were people in that audience mad). However, since through his > > >whole talk he consistantly misapplied the word metaphor which is > > not, as we > > >all know, a science term, I politely and easily shot down his argument, > > >cheering up a great number of people. > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe feministsf > > > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. --------------167EF53006DCE3F528469A77 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="dnsmlsn.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Dave Samuelson Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dnsmlsn.vcf" begin:vcard n:Samuelson;Dave tel;fax:work: 562-985-2369 home: 949-858-7170 tel;home:949-858-7878 tel;work:562-985-4245 x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:dnsmlsn@csulb.edu fn:Dave Samuelson end:vcard --------------167EF53006DCE3F528469A77-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:29:54 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just realised that my answer was completely weird.. sorry about that!! But I have to say- my experience has always been the complete opposite... I have always found that humanities people are completely blank-faced about science stuff, wheras because humanities stuff is more out there in terms of on the news, generally talekd about etc, science people have much more general knowledge about it. Maire "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Maire > Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2001 11:49 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Science vs humanities TAN > > > Sheryl wrote: Here's my salvo: I would bet my next paycheck that the > _majority_ of > humanities majors are far more broadly read than the _majority_ of science > and/or technical fields majors. Ask most engineers or > biochemists questions > that require a reading background in history, anthropology, mythology, > literature, politics, religion, or any of the many other fields > that go into > a good spec-fic novel, and you're fairly likely to get a blank > face. Ask a > humanities major a science question, and you might very well get an answer > that could be better-informed, or one that comes from pop science rather > than technical journals. But you WILL get an answer. There WILL be an > indication that the person is interested enough in the way all the > categories of existence fit together to try and go to the sciences to find > answers that other fields might not provide. There will be an awareness > that there's more than one way to skin an intellectual cat, so to speak. > > First of all, I disagree with that. > And secondly, that is only a valid point- if you then turn around to the > humanities people and ask them questions about engineering, mathematics, > science - and- get an answer from them. > Its not fair saying that science based peoples arent as smart, or > well-read or wahteever you are syaing, then humanities peoples, because if > you ask the science people humanities queswtions, they cant answer, wheras > the humanities people can. I hardly think that proves anything. > Maire > > > > "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here > today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." > > Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jocelyn & Sheryl > > Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2001 2:21 AM > > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Science vs humanities TAN > > > > > > Cynthia: > > > > Oh my. Since the semester is about to start and great honking heavy > > workloads will make life a lot less easygoing, could you please > > tell more of > > this story? Offlist if others would prefer. This is an issue that has > > concerned me since before I became an English major. I was a > > psychology/sociology double major in a past life, and there the > > problem was > > the inferiority complex that many in the behavioral sciences > > seemed to hold > > with regard to the so-called "hard" sciences. I am now in a > field that is > > constantly and vocally accused of being full of > airheads--according to the > > science types, that is--and yet, the people I've met so far > have tended to > > be brilliant. And I can point to my own test scores--yes, even in the > > sciences--and taste in recreational reading (which covers _everything_ > > except management treatises--ick), and say that I really don't > think I or > > the rest of the people I work with are just airy-fairy humanities types, > > easily dismissable because we aren't physicists. > > > > Here's my salvo: I would bet my next paycheck that the _majority_ of > > humanities majors are far more broadly read than the _majority_ > of science > > and/or technical fields majors. Ask most engineers or > > biochemists questions > > that require a reading background in history, anthropology, mythology, > > literature, politics, religion, or any of the many other fields > > that go into > > a good spec-fic novel, and you're fairly likely to get a blank > > face. Ask a > > humanities major a science question, and you might very well > get an answer > > that could be better-informed, or one that comes from pop science rather > > than technical journals. But you WILL get an answer. There WILL be an > > indication that the person is interested enough in the way all the > > categories of existence fit together to try and go to the > sciences to find > > answers that other fields might not provide. There will be an awareness > > that there's more than one way to skin an intellectual cat, so to speak. > > > > Just my two cents whilst not putting together my fall syllabus... > > > > Sheryl > > > > > > > Part of this stems from the fact > > >that non-science majors and (later in life professionals) still > > are told by > > >science majors and scientists that they their interests take > less brains. > > >This actually happened at a professional conference. A man gave > > a humorous > > >talk about taking science terms and using them inother fields. > His point > > was > > >basically don't because you don't know what you are doing > because you are > > >dumb. (Boy were people in that audience mad). However, since > through his > > >whole talk he consistantly misapplied the word metaphor which is > > not, as we > > >all know, a science term, I politely and easily shot down his argument, > > >cheering up a great number of people. > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe feministsf > > > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 23:46:41 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <<"There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2>> Maire, what was the context of your sig-line quote? Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:06:11 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <035701c12798$68105e60$204479a5@vze2fftf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit err.. no idea sorry Frances "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Frances > Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2001 1:47 PM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Science vs humanities TAN > > > <<"There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here > today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." > > Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2>> > > Maire, what was the context of your sig-line quote? > > Frances > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 15:05:00 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Using sf tto teach science Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is a link to a Slonczewski page http://www2.kenyon.edu/depts/biology/slonc/slonc.htm Its not actually the one that I found last year, but it should have, or have links to, all the relevant stuff. Maire "There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Rose Reith > Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2001 1:15 PM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] > > > Maire, > Thanks for the suggestions. I think they all have possibilities. I > hadn't known that Slonczewski is a bio prof. That does explain a bit > about her work though. I have enjoyed her books so far, but I still > have to read _Brain Plague_. I haven't read Kim Stanley Robinson's > yet either, but I plan to get to them. I will forward all the > suggestions to Jacquei anyway and she can send them on the prof > who's makeing the course list. > > Rose > > > >I would suggest Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton... Id say > there would be > >interest immediatly cause of JP3 being released, it has a lot of > biology and > >chem in it, (it was actually the text for a course I did in > first year uni- > >using sf to teach science) Other texts used were the Word for World is > >Forest by le Guin, and a lot of short stories, incl. Blood Music by Greg > >Bear. > >I would second the motion for Slonczewski- she is a bio prof > btw. Might be > >a bit 'old' though. > >I do think that short stories are a good idea for this sort of course. > >Teaching about the planets- sf can be an excellent tool- ie > Mars, Venus by > >Ben Bova > >Joan Slonczewski teacjes a course at her college that uses sf to > teach bio. > >The course has a web site with class lectures, reading materials > and so on- > >I will dig up the URL. > >There are quite a few similar courses, all in the US. Except for > the one I > >studies, which was through Murdoch Uiversity in Perth (I'm from Sydney) > >Kim Stanley Robinson's books are all educational (as are most of > the hard sf > >writers) he has an incredibly realistic series set on mars during humans > >establishing a colony there- also one set in Antarctica- both > contain a lot > >of scientific knowledge > >(have to go- daughter woken up, will wite more when think of it) > >Maire > > > > > > > >"There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here > >today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." > > > >Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > >> [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Rose Reith > >> Sent: Friday, 17 August 2001 11:23 AM > >> To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > >> Subject: [*FSFFU*] > >> > >> > >> Hello, > >> I am forwarding this from another list I am on (children's > >> literature). The writer who is from Sydney, Australia, is searching > >> for science fiction texts. I mentioned Nancy Kress and Joan > >> Slonczewski, and Alice Nunn because I heard about her from this list, > >> but I was wondering if you all had any other suggestions for her, > >> especially suggestions that might be more available in Australia... > >> > >> Thanks for any help. You can reply directly to her or I will > >> collect responses from the list and send them to her. > >> > >> Thank-you, > >> > >> Rose > >> > >> > >> At 4:22 PM +1000 8/16/01, Jacqueline Hicks wrote: > >> >Hi folk, > >> > > >> >I have an academic writing a course proposal for the NSW Dept of > >> Education > >> >and Training, which would become a syllabus for the final 2 years of > >> >schooling. She is looking for science fiction texts which could > >> be used to > >> >draw students unenthusiastic about science into the learning > process. I > >> >have seen some wonderful suggestions come from this list over > >> the years and > >> >am wondering if anyone has any ideas. The course is to focus > on Chemistry > >> >and Biology and could use fiction and non-fiction. There > have been some > >> >wonderful non-fiction books dealing with forensics and > medicine published > >> >which I have suggested, but I am stumped for the science > fiction area. > >> > > >> >I would be grateful for any suggestions. > >> > > >> >Cheers, > >> >Jacquei > >> > > >> >Jacquei Hicks > >> >Curriculum Librarian > >> >Alexander Mackie Curriculum Resources Library > >> >Old Teachers College Building (A22) > >> >University of Sydney NSW 2006 > >> > > >> >Phone: 61 2 9351 6252 > >> >Fax: 61 2 9351 7766 > >> > > >> >Email: jhicks@library.usyd.edu.au > >> > > >> >Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs > built the ark. > >> >Professionals built the Titanic. > >> > > > > >'Draco dormiens nunquam > >> >titillandus', 'Never tickle a sleeping dragon'. > >> -- > >> Information is not knowledge. > >> ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > >> discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > >> unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > >> unsubscribe feministsf > >> > >> Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > > >-------------------------------------------------- > >This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe feministsf > > > >Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -- > Information is not knowledge. > ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:05:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's not quite what I said. I said that _most_ humanities people are more broadly read than _most_ science people, and of course that's arguable. I never said science people were not as smart--I was actually responding to the usual accusation _from_ science people that we humanities types are not as smart, re Cynthia's anecdote. And I said that most humanities types are more likely to be able to answer a science-related question than science types are to answer a humanities question, but I was probably just being pissy and I apologize. I know that people in the humanities tend to misuse concepts like quantum mechanics and chaos, but that happens in the process of trying to learn about them and incorporate them into a broad worldview. Dang that sounded jargony. Ick. Anyway, I don't see this attempt at understanding or incorporation of ideas coming from the science types, or at least not as often as it should. To relate it to literature, take Honor Harrington. Weber fills his series with details about how the interstellar drives work and what makes for good naval architecture, but his social situations leave one wondering. How, for instance, did women get completely equal representation at all levels of his "world" without changing that world in any way, or having to deal with the kinds of conflicts that we see in our world as we try to gain equality? It almost seems as if the writer wanted a female protagonist, and he likes take-charge smart women (hey, so do I), but he isn't interested in looking at the social forces that make people act the ways they do. In _our_ world, for instance, women who are active duty military are often actively disliked by the wives of men who are active duty. The Wives sometimes think military women want to steal their husbands, and sometimes they see military women as a living accusation that being a Wife is no longer an acceptable goal for a woman. Whatever we think about this situation, it's real and understandable, but it's just magically not a factor in Weber's world. It's almost as if his women are just men with breasts. I enjoy his books, but I don't see in them much awareness of the wealth of information that sociology, history (other than military history), religious studies, phiolosophy, or even-gasp-women's studies could provide. His characters would be much more interesting, to me anyway, if this dimension was included in his books. Sheryl >First of all, I disagree with that. >And secondly, that is only a valid point- if you then turn around to the >humanities people and ask them questions about engineering, mathematics, >science - and- get an answer from them. > Its not fair saying that science based peoples arent as smart, or >well-read or wahteever you are syaing, then humanities peoples, because if >you ask the science people humanities queswtions, they cant answer, wheras >the humanities people can. I hardly think that proves anything. >Maire > > > >"There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here >today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." > >Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature >> [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jocelyn & Sheryl >> Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2001 2:21 AM >> To: feministsf@UIC.EDU >> Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Science vs humanities TAN >> >> >> Cynthia: >> >> Oh my. Since the semester is about to start and great honking heavy >> workloads will make life a lot less easygoing, could you please >> tell more of >> this story? Offlist if others would prefer. This is an issue that has >> concerned me since before I became an English major. I was a >> psychology/sociology double major in a past life, and there the >> problem was >> the inferiority complex that many in the behavioral sciences >> seemed to hold >> with regard to the so-called "hard" sciences. I am now in a field that is >> constantly and vocally accused of being full of airheads--according to the >> science types, that is--and yet, the people I've met so far have tended to >> be brilliant. And I can point to my own test scores--yes, even in the >> sciences--and taste in recreational reading (which covers _everything_ >> except management treatises--ick), and say that I really don't think I or >> the rest of the people I work with are just airy-fairy humanities types, >> easily dismissable because we aren't physicists. >> >> Here's my salvo: I would bet my next paycheck that the _majority_ of >> humanities majors are far more broadly read than the _majority_ of science >> and/or technical fields majors. Ask most engineers or >> biochemists questions >> that require a reading background in history, anthropology, mythology, >> literature, politics, religion, or any of the many other fields >> that go into >> a good spec-fic novel, and you're fairly likely to get a blank >> face. Ask a >> humanities major a science question, and you might very well get an answer >> that could be better-informed, or one that comes from pop science rather >> than technical journals. But you WILL get an answer. There WILL be an >> indication that the person is interested enough in the way all the >> categories of existence fit together to try and go to the sciences to find >> answers that other fields might not provide. There will be an awareness >> that there's more than one way to skin an intellectual cat, so to speak. >> >> Just my two cents whilst not putting together my fall syllabus... >> >> Sheryl >> >> >> > Part of this stems from the fact >> >that non-science majors and (later in life professionals) still >> are told by >> >science majors and scientists that they their interests take less brains. >> >This actually happened at a professional conference. A man gave >> a humorous >> >talk about taking science terms and using them inother fields. His point >> was >> >basically don't because you don't know what you are doing because you are >> >dumb. (Boy were people in that audience mad). However, since through his >> >whole talk he consistantly misapplied the word metaphor which is >> not, as we >> >all know, a science term, I politely and easily shot down his argument, >> >cheering up a great number of people. >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for >> discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >> unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: >> unsubscribe feministsf >> >> Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > >Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:29:55 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <008101c12808$0c0ccf20$0aeec0d8@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree with all that. I am in a bit of a weird position here.. because I am in between, both a humanities AND a science person.(my father's a fizzicist, my mother's a soshyologist; this is how I turned out!) And I just wish they would all get along. I think you can say whwat you were saying about WEber (which I havent read btw) about a hell of a lot of sf, ie Bujold. But I think that that sf is usually not the sf that you read for social commentary etc maire ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jocelyn & Sheryl > Sent: Sunday, 19 August 2001 3:06 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington > > > That's not quite what I said. I said that _most_ humanities > people are more > broadly read than _most_ science people, and of course that's arguable. I > never said science people were not as smart--I was actually responding to > the usual accusation _from_ science people that we humanities > types are not > as smart, re Cynthia's anecdote. And I said that most humanities > types are > more likely to be able to answer a science-related question than science > types are to answer a humanities question, but I was probably just being > pissy and I apologize. > > I know that people in the humanities tend to misuse concepts like quantum > mechanics and chaos, but that happens in the process of trying to learn > about them and incorporate them into a broad worldview. Dang that sounded > jargony. Ick. Anyway, I don't see this attempt at understanding or > incorporation of ideas coming from the science types, or at least not as > often as it should. > > To relate it to literature, take Honor Harrington. Weber fills his series > with details about how the interstellar drives work and what > makes for good > naval architecture, but his social situations leave one > wondering. How, for > instance, did women get completely equal representation at all > levels of his > "world" without changing that world in any way, or having to deal with the > kinds of conflicts that we see in our world as we try to gain > equality? It > almost seems as if the writer wanted a female protagonist, and he likes > take-charge smart women (hey, so do I), but he isn't interested in looking > at the social forces that make people act the ways they do. In > _our_ world, > for instance, women who are active duty military are often > actively disliked > by the wives of men who are active duty. The Wives sometimes > think military > women want to steal their husbands, and sometimes they see > military women as > a living accusation that being a Wife is no longer an acceptable > goal for a > woman. Whatever we think about this situation, it's real and > understandable, but it's just magically not a factor in Weber's > world. It's > almost as if his women are just men with breasts. I enjoy his > books, but I > don't see in them much awareness of the wealth of information that > sociology, history (other than military history), religious studies, > phiolosophy, or even-gasp-women's studies could provide. His characters > would be much more interesting, to me anyway, if this dimension > was included > in his books. > Sheryl > > >First of all, I disagree with that. > >And secondly, that is only a valid point- if you then turn around to the > >humanities people and ask them questions about engineering, mathematics, > >science - and- get an answer from them. > > Its not fair saying that science based peoples arent as smart, or > >well-read or wahteever you are syaing, then humanities peoples, > because if > >you ask the science people humanities queswtions, they cant > answer, wheras > >the humanities people can. I hardly think that proves anything. > >Maire > > > > > > > >"There's nothing wrong with pregnancy. Half the people wouldn't be here > >today if it wasn't for women being pregnant." > > > >Sarah Kennedy, British Radio 2 > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > >> [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jocelyn & Sheryl > >> Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2001 2:21 AM > >> To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > >> Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Science vs humanities TAN > >> > >> > >> Cynthia: > >> > >> Oh my. Since the semester is about to start and great honking heavy > >> workloads will make life a lot less easygoing, could you please > >> tell more of > >> this story? Offlist if others would prefer. This is an issue that has > >> concerned me since before I became an English major. I was a > >> psychology/sociology double major in a past life, and there the > >> problem was > >> the inferiority complex that many in the behavioral sciences > >> seemed to hold > >> with regard to the so-called "hard" sciences. I am now in a field that > is > >> constantly and vocally accused of being full of airheads--according to > the > >> science types, that is--and yet, the people I've met so far have tended > to > >> be brilliant. And I can point to my own test scores--yes, even in the > >> sciences--and taste in recreational reading (which covers _everything_ > >> except management treatises--ick), and say that I really don't > think I or > >> the rest of the people I work with are just airy-fairy > humanities types, > >> easily dismissable because we aren't physicists. > >> > >> Here's my salvo: I would bet my next paycheck that the _majority_ of > >> humanities majors are far more broadly read than the _majority_ of > science > >> and/or technical fields majors. Ask most engineers or > >> biochemists questions > >> that require a reading background in history, anthropology, mythology, > >> literature, politics, religion, or any of the many other fields > >> that go into > >> a good spec-fic novel, and you're fairly likely to get a blank > >> face. Ask a > >> humanities major a science question, and you might very well get an > answer > >> that could be better-informed, or one that comes from pop > science rather > >> than technical journals. But you WILL get an answer. There WILL be an > >> indication that the person is interested enough in the way all the > >> categories of existence fit together to try and go to the sciences to > find > >> answers that other fields might not provide. There will be an > awareness > >> that there's more than one way to skin an intellectual cat, so > to speak. > >> > >> Just my two cents whilst not putting together my fall syllabus... > >> > >> Sheryl > >> > >> > >> > Part of this stems from the fact > >> >that non-science majors and (later in life professionals) still > >> are told by > >> >science majors and scientists that they their interests take less > brains. > >> >This actually happened at a professional conference. A man gave > >> a humorous > >> >talk about taking science terms and using them inother > fields. His point > >> was > >> >basically don't because you don't know what you are doing because you > are > >> >dumb. (Boy were people in that audience mad). However, since through > his > >> >whole talk he consistantly misapplied the word metaphor which is > >> not, as we > >> >all know, a science term, I politely and easily shot down his > argument, > >> >cheering up a great number of people. > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > >> discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > >> unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > >> unsubscribe feministsf > >> > >> Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > > >-------------------------------------------------- > >This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe feministsf > > > >Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:32:18 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: fantastic & utopian literature For discussion of feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01C1285F.8C200F40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C1285F.8C200F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey- does anyone remember the name of this story? I am pretty sure that its by Connie Willis, and its about a family of women agonising over the fact that one of their younger membrs has joined a group called the Cyclists. Although the menstrial cycle has been abolished, the Cyclists are into getting back to nature, female powere etc, and turn back on their menstrual cycles. I know we discussed it about a year ago, so if I dont get any answeres, i will have to not be so lazy, and look through the archives : ) Maire ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C1285F.8C200F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey- = does anyone=20 remember the name of this story? I am pretty sure that its by Connie = Willis, and=20 its about a family of women agonising over the fact that one of their = younger=20 membrs has joined a group called the Cyclists. Although the menstrial = cycle has=20 been abolished, the Cyclists are into getting back to nature, = female=20 powere etc, and turn back on their menstrual cycles.

I know = we discussed=20 it about a year ago, so if I dont get any answeres, i will have to not = be so=20 lazy, and look through the archives : )

Maire

=20

“Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed = word” – Shirley=20 Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, = explaining why=20 the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to = manhole=20 cover

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C1285F.8C200F40-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:19:10 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, you're right. Like Dave Samuelson said. Apples and salt mines. :-) Sheryl >I think you can say whwat you were saying about WEber (which I havent read >btw) about a hell of a lot of sf, ie Bujold. But I think that that sf is >usually not the sf that you read for social commentary etc >maire > > -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:39:41 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <00c901c12809$e592bba0$0aeec0d8@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Actually, I reckon what annoys me more, is when I read sf in which exactly the same social situation as now in our society, exists. ie in a lot of recent hard sf- its men and women equal, but the men are a bit more equal than the women (LOL) Or, even worse, stuff from the so-called golden age of sf, in which authors can imagine al these futuristic technologies etc, but cant seem to imagine women emerging from teh kitchen. Argh! Maire ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Jocelyn & Sheryl > Sent: Sunday, 19 August 2001 3:19 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington > > > Yeah, you're right. Like Dave Samuelson said. Apples and salt > mines. :-) > Sheryl > > > >I think you can say whwat you were saying about WEber (which I > havent read > >btw) about a hell of a lot of sf, ie Bujold. But I think that that sf is > >usually not the sf that you read for social commentary etc > >maire > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:56:59 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Even The Queen" Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 03:52:02 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <008601c1280f$324cd0c0$df4279a5@vze2fftf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks so much, Frances! Maire ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Frances > Sent: Sunday, 19 August 2001 3:57 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists > > > "Even The Queen" > > Frances > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:03:23 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of my favourites -- except I have never understood what the "shunt" was for. Anyone? I love the "flower" restaurant. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:04:45 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <<"Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word" - Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover>> Good thing they weren't discussing access for a donkey. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 04:01:29 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <009e01c12810$16b60560$df4279a5@vze2fftf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey Frances... what was it about the shunt exactly you werent sure about? Like, did you mean, what did it look like, or where did it go? or I guess you mean, why did they need a shunt at all, to turn off the menstrual cycle with the chemical? Maire ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Frances > Sent: Sunday, 19 August 2001 4:03 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists > > > One of my favourites -- except I have never understood what the > "shunt" was for. > Anyone? > > I love the "flower" restaurant. > > Frances > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:08:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now I'm trying to remember the title of her story about editing all the old films for PC -- changing scenes with people smoking and drinking, etc. Has anyone read "Passage"? (I haven't yet -- hoping to snag it from the library soon.) Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 04:04:39 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <00aa01c12810$ce914820$df4279a5@vze2fftf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No, I have Passage, but havent read it yet. I am scared that I wont like it, cause Im a bit worried aboutth e similarities to flatliners. Seems a bit stephen king to me? Although, apparently she makes a joke on the similarity to Flatliners herself in the book! Maire ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Frances > Sent: Sunday, 19 August 2001 4:09 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists > > > Now I'm trying to remember the title of her story about editing > all the old > films for PC -- changing scenes with people smoking and drinking, etc. > > Has anyone read "Passage"? (I haven't yet -- hoping to snag it > from the library > soon.) > > Frances > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 04:05:43 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <00a201c12810$47a70340$df4279a5@vze2fftf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It really irritates me that they dont just change it altogether- ie just call it access cover or utility covre or whatever Maire ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Frances > Sent: Sunday, 19 August 2001 4:05 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists > > > <<"Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word" - Shirley Dean, council > person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the > Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole > cover>> > > Good thing they weren't discussing access for a donkey. > > Frances > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:13:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >why did they need a shunt at all, to turn off the menstrual cycle with the chemical? Yes. Why not just a pill? I've always wondered if I'm missing some other purpose it served -- other than a plot device symbol, so to speak -- removing a shunt is visible, stopping taking a pill is not. Maire -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:54:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jocelyn & Sheryl Subject: Re: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It may be a hoax---has the lingering scent of an urban legend--but I read in the newpaper today that a Latter Day Saints organization printed a picture of James Dean, but only after airbrushing the cigarette out of his mouth. S - >Now I'm trying to remember the title of her story about editing all the old >films for PC -- changing scenes with people smoking and drinking, etc. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:27:54 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >It may be a hoax---has the lingering scent of an urban legend--but I read in >the newpaper today that a Latter Day Saints organization printed a picture >of James Dean, but only after airbrushing the cigarette out of his mouth. S See "Rebel Without A Smoke" http://www.villagevoice.com/columns/9919/ladd.shtml And I believe there have been groups offended by the sight of C.S. Lewis's pipe and beer mug... Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:30:02 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I think you can say whwat you were saying about WEber (which I havent read >btw) about a hell of a lot of sf, ie Bujold. If this is about Weber ignoring social questions and problems of historical change in order to have a woman in high military rank, NO WAY can this be said of Bujold, whose sense of social factors is highly acute - see, for example, _Ethan of Athos_, in which an all male society has had to develop a social and economic system in which nurturing is valued, so that it will not die out and offspring will be adequately socialisted. Also, her female military (e.g. Cordelia) are from Beta, which is clearly positioned as an egalitarian democracy - which works at being an egalitarian democracy, e.g, rights for hermaphrodites. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 14:30:21 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <009101c12837$0311e020$25229dc3@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit yeah- thats my point. How did all these egalitarian societies come about? Though I could prob have thought of a better example of an author waving a wand and creating an egalitiarian society- ie one more jarring than Bujold's. Maire ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Lesley Hall > Sent: Sunday, 19 August 2001 8:30 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington > > > >I think you can say whwat you were saying about WEber (which I > havent read > >btw) about a hell of a lot of sf, ie Bujold. > > If this is about Weber ignoring social questions and problems of > historical > change in order to have a woman in high military rank, NO WAY can this be > said of Bujold, whose sense of social factors is highly acute - see, for > example, _Ethan of Athos_, in which an all male society has had > to develop a > social and economic system in which nurturing is valued, so that > it will not > die out and offspring will be adequately socialisted. Also, her female > military (e.g. Cordelia) are from Beta, which is clearly positioned as an > egalitarian democracy - which works at being an egalitarian > democracy, e.g, > rights for hermaphrodites. > Lesley Hall > lesleyah@primex.co.uk > website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 00:55:46 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <200108190100.tnuhuo.t37.37kbi14@pickering.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maire wrote: > yeah- thats my point. How did all these egalitarian societies come > about? Though I could prob have thought of a better example of an > author waving a wand and creating an egalitiarian society- ie one more > jarring than Bujold's. Pure extrapolation is one way. Both US & Western European society are far more egalitarian than they were 100 or even 50 years ago. Asking how a society several hundred years in the future came about seems to me to be refusing the acknowledge that societies can change and in some cases they can change fairly rapidly. An equally good question is why wouldn't an advanced high tech society like on Beta Colony be an egalitarian democracy? OTOH, I agree completely that Weber's HH books seem like modern day society with a few superficial changes grafted on. Bujold created a number of new societies in her Vor books, Weber mostly ignores such issues and assumes all social and cultural are the same as now, except for a few he decides to change without regard for the consequences of such changes. To me, Bujold's societies make sense because they seem crafted as coherent wholes. Weber's do not. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 12:51:55 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In Bujold, although she integrates her society-development stuff very closely with the plot/characters and doesn't info-dump (which is I think why people sometimes overlook the work she does on making social developments plausible), what seems to be the case with Beta Colony is that this was established in a harsh environment (isn't it actually a dome culture?) which required a good deal of social cooperation, plus it has an emphasis on education (their main export is knowledge and expertise). Nowhere does she 'wave a wand' in the sense of some writers who simply seem to think that 'in the future X will be the case' without considering how and why. As a historian I find her developments plausible and making sense, which does not happen in a lot of cases! Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah -----Original Message----- From: Maire To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Date: 19 August 2001 05:34 Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington >yeah- thats my point. How did all these egalitarian societies come about? >Though I could prob have thought of a better example of an author waving a >wand and creating an egalitiarian society- ie one more jarring than >Bujold's. >Maire > > > >^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council >person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the >Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole >cover > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature >> [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Lesley Hall >> Sent: Sunday, 19 August 2001 8:30 AM >> To: feministsf@UIC.EDU >> Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Science vs humanities TAN; Honor Harrington >> >> >> >I think you can say whwat you were saying about WEber (which I >> havent read >> >btw) about a hell of a lot of sf, ie Bujold. >> >> If this is about Weber ignoring social questions and problems of >> historical >> change in order to have a woman in high military rank, NO WAY can this be >> said of Bujold, whose sense of social factors is highly acute - see, for >> example, _Ethan of Athos_, in which an all male society has had >> to develop a >> social and economic system in which nurturing is valued, so that >> it will not >> die out and offspring will be adequately socialisted. Also, her female >> military (e.g. Cordelia) are from Beta, which is clearly positioned as an >> egalitarian democracy - which works at being an egalitarian >> democracy, e.g, >> rights for hermaphrodites. >> Lesley Hall >> lesleyah@primex.co.uk >> website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for >> discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >> unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >> LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: >> unsubscribe feministsf >> >> Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > >Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 08:05:01 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Answers to various questions I've been asked. Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think it was Marie who asked me about SevnofNine. I missed episodes and forget others, but basically Captain Jainway was able to appeal to SevenofNine's humanity to convince to come with them. Then over time, the holographic doctor removed as many of the Borg implants as he could. A curious side effect of these removals was that SevenofNine was issued a skin tight uniform that no other woman on board wore, and, most amazingly, her breastsgrew in size and had that more than perfect shape which is the hallmark of fallsies. Did her nanotechs do htis to make up for the other lost cyborg parts? Or did the doctor do some bioengineering that he thought nobody would notice, but if they did nobody would complain of. I was also asked (by Marie?) why the Red Mars was immoral. Now it has been more than a decade since I read hte book, but I remember that it began with a murder, during the course of the book we learned who the murderer was, and by the end of thebook he had not been caught and it was clear not only was he not going to be caught but nothing would happen to him. Now though I am a proponet of the French 'art for art's sake' view of art, at heart and as a reader I am a follower of the English 'art as moral lesson' view, and so when a bad guy gets away with it in fiction, I fidn it morally repugnant. I mean that happens all the time in rl, so I want my fiction to be a place of hope and justice! It's possible I miss remember what happened in the book, but I did come away from the book feeling that it was immoral for the reason given above. I will be writing to the person who asked me what exactly happened at hte conference when the hard science guys offended the people who have humanities in their backgrounds, but as it is a storyof some lenght, and one and all may have noticed I dont' tend to write short emails, I will answer in private. As to the generally posed question of why "we can't all get along" science folks and humanties and arts folks, I think The Chalice and the Blade by Reiner, I think her name is, gives a good answer. The short being what women are taught, humanities and arts, are deemed lesser than what men have been traditionally taught, math and science, adn we all "know" women and so their studies is the dummy stuff. (Yes, I'm being sarcastic.) Once the hiererarchal stuff is better behind us, we will all get along better. As for Even the Queen, such a funny story! I lvoe Connie Willis's work. I can't wait to read Passages. Aunt Dimity Digs In has a really ending; for all it's charming let's just have fun story, it has a really thoughtful and very moral point to its finish. Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 21:26:45 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mellen Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <20010816214042.OJYS1975.priv-edtnes12-hme0.telusplanet.net@[161.184.43.244]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sorry it's taken so long, but I've been trying to remember a short story with cyborg characters. It was part of a collection by many authors. I think it might have been "Tin Soldier" and I vaguely remember that the author might have been male? Anyone able to fill in the blanks? Good luck - Mellen -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:16:14 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: earthyfemme Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I was looking at the HR Giger ( my fave artist of all time) site and he's a big fan of what's called biomechanics .. to me this is a form of cyborganica (is that a word? it is now!).. He features women often as alien cyborgs/biomechanoids, or ships (frequently referred to by men and women as 'she') with 'feminine' attributes like soft curvy lines and stuff as opposed to something boxy looking like a Volvo in outerspace... www.giger.com Are there other artists who belong to the Biomechanic school of Art aside from Giger Anyway, not necessarily fiction or movie, but art. Just a thought. Vivian > Sorry it's taken so long, but I've been trying to remember a short story > with cyborg characters. It was part of a collection by many authors. I think > it might have been "Tin Soldier" and I vaguely remember that the author > might have been male? Anyone able to fill in the blanks? > > Good luck - Mellen > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 01:25:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lori Selke Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, earthyfemme wrote: > Are there other artists who belong to the Biomechanic school of Art aside > from Giger[?] Yes, certainly. Hajime Sorayama is a relatively well-known artist who does female robotic and cyborg forms. You can see his stuff here: www.sorayama.net . I'm not a big fan of his stuff, though, and his style is heavy on the pin-up aesthetic. Lori -- selk@io.com, selk@mindspring.com, http://www.io.com/~selk "But this isn't a dance! It's upright delirium!" -- The Desert Peach -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 01:30:52 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer H Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Sorry it's taken so long, but I've been trying to remember a short story >with cyborg characters. It was part of a collection by many authors. I think >it might have been "Tin Soldier" and I vaguely remember that the author >might have been male? Anyone able to fill in the blanks? > >Good luck - Mellen > A story I'm fond of: Tin Soldier by Joan D. Vinge. It was originaly in Orbit 14, Damon Knight, ed (Harper & Row, 1974). It has been in several anthologies. It was included in More Women of Wonder, Pamela Sargent, ed (vintage: NY 1977); in Eyes of Amber (collection, q.v.); and in Love 3000, Martin Harry Greenberg, ed (Thomas Nelson: NY 1980) (publishing info from: http://www.sff.net/people/JDVinge/jbib.htm ) Is Queen of Angels by Greg Bear a cyborg story? I haven't read it yet, just thought I remembered something from reviews. Samuel Delany's The Stars in My Pocket, Like Grains of Sand is certainly a cyborg novel. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:34:08 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lyle Burness Organization: Medical Society Bookshop Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A2DF8F677D9B06A9E05D0018" --------------A2DF8F677D9B06A9E05D0018 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alternately, try Stelarc http://www.stelarc.va.com.au/ , who's work is also problematic, but certainly more interesting / engaging with theory than the (tediously) masculinist art of Giger... Or, try Sandy Stone's homepage for some interesting theory re body / hybridity / etc http://sandystone.com/ Lyle _________________________________________ > --------------A2DF8F677D9B06A9E05D0018 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alternately, try Stelarc http://www.stelarc.va.com.au/ , who's work is also problematic, but certainly more interesting / engaging with theory than the (tediously) masculinist art of Giger...

Or, try Sandy Stone's homepage for some interesting theory re body / hybridity / etc
http://sandystone.com/

Lyle
_________________________________________

--------------A2DF8F677D9B06A9E05D0018-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 01:42:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer H Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" some cyborg fiction links Janet Abbate uses some cyborg stories to teach the history of technology http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Colleges/ARHU/Depts/History/Faculty/JAbbate/cybo rg/ a list of fiction and criticism http://www.clovis.cc.nm.us/la/beenm/research/CyborgCrit.html -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:37:36 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <200108200110.to16u8.1eku.37kbi73@walker.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mellen wrote: > Sorry it's taken so long, but I've been trying to remember a short > story with cyborg characters. It was part of a collection by many > authors. I think it might have been "Tin Soldier" and I vaguely > remember that the author might have been male? Anyone able to fill in > the blanks? If that's the one I'm thinking of, it was by Joan Vinge. She's don't lots of interested stories with cyborg and biomodified characters. Her novel _Superlumenal_ (expanded from the short story "Aztecs") being one excellent example -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 02:06:48 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mellen Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <200108200738.DAA31240@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jennifer Hinds, and then John Snead wrote about "Tin Soldier"; > If that's the one I'm thinking of, it was by Joan Vinge. She's don't > lots of interested stories with cyborg and biomodified characters. > Her novel _Superlumenal_ (expanded from the short story > "Aztecs") being one excellent example Yes, thanks to you both - that's it. I remember that story very fondly. Wasn't Superluminal by Vonda Mc Intyre, though? Or is that another book? blessings - Mellen -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:45:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Story by Connie Willis about the Cyclists Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jocelyn & Sheryl wrote: > > It may be a hoax---has the lingering scent of an urban legend--but I read in > the newpaper today that a Latter Day Saints organization printed a picture > of James Dean, but only after airbrushing the cigarette out of his mouth. > S > - > > >Now I'm trying to remember the title of her story about editing all the old > >films for PC -- changing scenes with people smoking and drinking, etc. LDS-controlled newspapers for years have been routinely editing out (frex) Mark Trail's pipe and other taboo items from comic strips (I'm not sure if they removed the offending items from bad guys, or just good guys). -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:48:42 +0200 Reply-To: p.mayerhofer@web.de Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This email seems to have got lost somehow as I haven't received it myself. Sorry, if this is a repitition. Petra -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- Von: Petra Mayerhofer [mailto:p.mayerhofer@web.de] Gesendet: Sonntag, 19. August 2001 16:33 An: 'For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature' Betreff: AW: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg > Question Four: I could use more examples of fictional > cyborgs, particularly > female cyborgs. As far as I know (I have not read all of these books) you can add to your list - Mindplayers by Pat Cadigan - China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh - The Annunciate by Severna Park - perhaps also Brain Plague by Joan Slonczewski As a matter of fact I think the list of female cyborgs (here I mean a female body with integrated technology not 'hybridity', the fusion of two different organisms) in fiction is surprisingly small, including those already mentioned so far. I just looked through my bookcase and I could not add more. But perhaps that's purely a matter what of I apparently prefer (I'm no cyberpunk aficionado (a?) ). By the way, the pilots in Bujold's Vorkosigan Universum would also count. Was there ever a female one? Petra -- Petra Mayerhofer p.mayerhofer@web.de oder p_mayerhofer@yahoo.com Feministische phantastisch-utopische Literatur http://www.feministische-sf.de -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:48:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lori Selke Subject: Re: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: Petra Mayerhofer Comments: cc: feministsf@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <000401c129b1$210fac30$3c66e2c3@pc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > As far as I know (I have not read all of these books) you can add to your > list > - China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh I suppose the protagonist of McHugh's _Mission Child_ might also count as an interesting case of cyborg-ness, with her little-understood implants. Lori -- selk@io.com, selk@mindspring.com, http://www.io.com/~selk "But this isn't a dance! It's upright delirium!" -- The Desert Peach -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 12:07:35 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In that case, what about hte jagernauts in Primary Inversion by Asaro? The leab charated is female empath.. cyber-soldier... has a 'bioweb' implanted into her body.. a computer node in her spine so for example if someone is speaking greek toher, she can think "translate" and the translation will appear in fron of her eyes, plue translate her reply. (plus a myraid other uses incl battle related) Maire ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Lori Selke > Sent: Tuesday, 21 August 2001 8:48 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg > > > On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Petra Mayerhofer wrote: > > > As far as I know (I have not read all of these books) you can > add to your > > list > > > - China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh > > I suppose the protagonist of McHugh's _Mission Child_ might also > count as an interesting case of cyborg-ness, with her little-understood > implants. > > > > Lori > > -- > selk@io.com, selk@mindspring.com, http://www.io.com/~selk > > "But this isn't a dance! It's upright delirium!" -- The Desert Peach > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 23:05:02 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excuse me if these have already been mentioned: Characters in Melissa Scott's "Dreamships", "Burning Bright", "Dreaming Metal", and "Trouble and Her Friends" were all implanted with data nodes (I know someone did mention Trouble). The Dreamships pilots have, as I recall, a whole subcutaneous web. In "Night Sky Mine" one of the men has the capacity to plug in "skill" chips. And a minor detail, in Suzette Haden Elgin's "Judas Rose" (I think -- one of that trilogy, anyway) a device inserted into a nostril interfaces with the brain to provide images. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 01:24:29 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <200108210134.to3sn9.7h2.37kb01i@hazard.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mellen wrote: > Jennifer Hinds, and then John Snead wrote about "Tin Soldier"; > > > If that's the one I'm thinking of, it was by Joan Vinge. She's > > don't lots of interested stories with cyborg and biomodified > > characters. Her novel _Superlumenal_ (expanded from the short story > > "Aztecs") being one excellent example > > Yes, thanks to you both - that's it. I remember that story very > fondly. > > Wasn't Superluminal by Vonda Mc Intyre, though? Or is that another > book? No, merely both a typo and confusing two of my favorite authors. Joan Vinge has a number of excellent books with cyborg characters, Psion, Catseye and Dreamfall come to mind. In addition, Mc Intyre has a plethora of stories involving hybrids of various types. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 08:43:54 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu > The Dreamships pilots have, as I recall, a whole > subcutaneous web. > The 'webbers' in Helen Wright's _A Matter of Oaths_ have something similar, but I'm not in the same place as my copy at the moment, so can't check the exact details. However, I think it would count as cyber. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk Website: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 08:48:46 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU There is an incomplete series called something like the 'Rehumanisation of Jade Darcy' by Stephen Goldin and Mary Miller (??), which is more or less pure frothy space opera-y stuff, but the central character is a semi-cyborg modified for military purposes at some stage of her career (?and left before she got the full treatment?) and as the series starts has quit and is acting as a nightclub bouncer (to the best of my recollection as it's year since I read them) Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk Website: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 07:36:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Loren J. MacGregor's unjustly neglected THE NET [Ace:1987] such cyberaugmentations, as well as others, are a major element both of the plot and of the milieu. -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey Sunrise Book Reviews -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:05:41 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Glory Season + general ramble as per me Comments: To: fantastic & utopian literature For discussion of feminist SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0060_01C12AA6.9071CF40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C12AA6.9071CF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, I just wanted to ask if anyone has read Glory Season by David Brin. If so, did they find it offensive, patronising, interesting what... I have gained the impression that the book is one of those 'women trying to rule the world and stuffing it up' type books. Is this anywere near the truth? Or is it more subtle than that? I have enjoyed other of Brin;s books, but certainly I wasnt reading them for teh feminist perspective. There has been some discussion on the Broad Universe list as to what sort of books they should be promoting ie feminist/women friendly sff, or sff written by women. Hmmm... a sticky one. Someone asked 'would BU then promote Battlefield Earth, if it had been written by a woman." I havent read the book, is it very anti-women is it? I suppose I can see it in the movie- ie the hero's gf arrives on teh scene halfway through, in the role of plot device to stuff things up for the hero. BTW... my copy of Always Coming Home finally arrived at the bookstore LOL. Anyone for a belated discussion? ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C12AA6.9071CF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi=20 all,

I just = wanted to ask=20 if anyone has read Glory Season by David Brin. If so, did they find it=20 offensive, patronising, interesting what... I have gained the impression = that=20 the book is one of those 'women trying to rule the world and stuffing it = up'=20 type books. Is this anywere near the truth? Or is it more subtle than = that? I=20 have enjoyed other of Brin;s books, but certainly I wasnt reading them = for teh=20 feminist perspective.

There = has been some=20 discussion on the Broad Universe list as to what sort of books they = should be=20 promoting ie feminist/women friendly sff, or sff written by women. = Hmmm... a=20 sticky one.

Someone asked 'would=20 BU then promote Battlefield Earth, if it had been written by a woman." I = havent=20 read the book, is it very anti-women is it? I suppose I can see it in = the movie-=20 ie the hero's gf arrives on teh scene halfway through, in the role of = plot=20 device to stuff things up for the hero.

BTW... = my copy of=20 Always Coming Home finally arrived at the bookstore LOL. Anyone for a = belated=20 discussion?

=20

------=_NextPart_000_0060_01C12AA6.9071CF40-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:17:30 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu In-Reply-To: <000401c129b1$210fac30$3c66e2c3@pc> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Forgive the self-serving aspect, but in case it's of interest to you, my books (GLASS HOUSES-1992 Tor, PROXIES-1997/8 Tor, and the forthcoming BURNING THE ICE-2002 Tor) all have female/cyborg elements as well. My novelette "At Tide's Turning," due out late this year in Gardner Dozois's WORLDMAKERS anthology, taken from BURNING THE ICE, also has the woman-machine connection. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:19:18 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <200108210825.EAA06293@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 8/21/01 1:24 AM, John Snead at sneadj@MINDSPRING.COM wrote: > Joan Vinge has a number of excellent books with cyborg > characters, Psion, Catseye and Dreamfall come to mind. In > addition, Mc Intyre has a plethora of stories involving hybrids of > various types. Second this recommendation !! -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:20:56 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patricia Mathews Subject: Re: Glory Season + general ramble as per me Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Wednesday, August 22, 2001 1:05 AM +1000 Maire wrote: > > Hi all, > I just wanted to ask if anyone has read Glory Season by David Brin. If > so, did they find it offensive, patronising, interesting what... I have > gained the impression that the book is one of those 'women trying to rule > the world and stuffing it up' type books. Is this anywere near the truth? Not really. They have a nice, stable society for quiet times, and a safety valve for dangerous times. Someone asked 'would BU then promote > Battlefield Earth, if it had been written by a woman." I havent read the > book, is it very anti-women is it? No. But as a literary effort, it's at the top of the Green Slime Award list, not to mention the "It was a dark & stormy night" awards. In short, it *stinks*. > “Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word” – > Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, > explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment > request, back to manhole cover How about "Access Hole?" Abbreviations as you imagine them. Pat -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:32:27 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Glory Season + general ramble as per me Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <1953243738.998385656@dhcp-136-0222.unm.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for your reply Pat.. so you reckon Glory Season is worth a read then? I cant remember where, but somewhere I read a very damning review of GS... something along the lines of it seems as though Brin set out to write a feminist utopia to prove that men can write/imagine/cope with the idea... but his inherent semi-misogynism came out subtly and ruined the whole thing. I am pretty srue that the review was by a man, oddly enough. Yes... perhaps thats the reason for the Battlefield Earth thing... I have heard its a bit of a stinker. Yet the series keeps on turning up in the shops... growing, even. re the manhole cover... my thoughts exactly. If only councils etc or whoever it is that is in charge of de-sexism-ing our language- would realise the value of imagination and lateral thinking in the creation of gender neutral language. ie manhole cover becomes access cover, chairman becomes chairholder (or whatever) Maire ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Patricia Mathews > Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2001 1:21 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Glory Season + general ramble as per me > > > --On Wednesday, August 22, 2001 1:05 AM +1000 Maire > wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > I just wanted to ask if anyone has read Glory Season by David Brin. If > > so, did they find it offensive, patronising, interesting what... I have > > gained the impression that the book is one of those 'women > trying to rule > > the world and stuffing it up' type books. Is this anywere near > the truth? > > Not really. They have a nice, stable society for quiet > times, and a safety > valve for dangerous times. > > Someone asked 'would BU then promote > > Battlefield Earth, if it had been written by a woman." I havent read the > > book, is it very anti-women is it? > > No. But as a literary effort, it's at the top of the > Green Slime Award > list, not to mention the "It was a dark & stormy night" awards. In short, > it *stinks*. > > > “Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word” – > > Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) > City Council, > > explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment > > request, back to manhole cover > > How about "Access Hole?" Abbreviations as you imagine them. > > Pat > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 01:44:02 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Glory Season + general ramble as per me Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have to ask... what's the story with this book "Thwe Warrior Within" by Sharon Green? Has anyone heard of it? I bought it because it looked very feminist, said on the back "too hot for the mainstream presses to handle"... naively, I thought it must be very feminist, perhaps erotic, but def. very feminist. HEh heh... in fact, I felt like I was reading fantasy's equivalent of the Story of O. You know the story... intelligent attractive, high ranking woman finds satisfaction as a barbarian;s sex slave. Similar in credibilty to a porno.. ie, reality and plauibilty are suspended in order to have as many raunchy sex scenes as possible. I know realise that I have heard the authors name mentioned on other lists. But no one ever hinted that it was like 'that'. Oh well... cant win em all Maire ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Maire > Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2001 1:32 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Glory Season + general ramble as per me > > > Thanks for your reply Pat.. so you reckon Glory Season is worth a > read then? > I cant remember where, but somewhere I read a very damning review of GS... > something along the lines of it seems as though Brin set out to write a > feminist utopia to prove that men can write/imagine/cope with the idea... > but his inherent semi-misogynism came out subtly and ruined the > whole thing. > I am pretty srue that the review was by a man, oddly enough. > Yes... perhaps thats the reason for the Battlefield Earth thing... I have > heard its a bit of a stinker. Yet the series keeps on turning up in the > shops... growing, even. > re the manhole cover... my thoughts exactly. If only councils etc > or whoever > it is that is in charge of de-sexism-ing our language- would realise the > value of imagination and lateral thinking in the creation of > gender neutral > language. ie manhole cover becomes access cover, chairman becomes > chairholder (or whatever) > Maire > > > > ^�Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^� ^� Shirley Dean, council > person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the > Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole > cover > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Patricia Mathews > > Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2001 1:21 AM > > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Glory Season + general ramble as per me > > > > > > --On Wednesday, August 22, 2001 1:05 AM +1000 Maire > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > I just wanted to ask if anyone has read Glory Season by David Brin. If > > > so, did they find it offensive, patronising, interesting > what... I have > > > gained the impression that the book is one of those 'women > > trying to rule > > > the world and stuffing it up' type books. Is this anywere near > > the truth? > > > > Not really. They have a nice, stable society for quiet > > times, and a safety > > valve for dangerous times. > > > > Someone asked 'would BU then promote > > > Battlefield Earth, if it had been written by a woman." I > havent read the > > > book, is it very anti-women is it? > > > > No. But as a literary effort, it's at the top of the > > Green Slime Award > > list, not to mention the "It was a dark & stormy night" awards. > In short, > > it *stinks*. > > > > > “Personhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word” – > > > Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) > > City Council, > > > explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment > > > request, back to manhole cover > > > > How about "Access Hole?" Abbreviations as you imagine them. > > > > Pat > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe feministsf > > > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:27:44 +0100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Angela Barclay Subject: Re: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Laura: Thanks for the info- and no need to apologize for mentioning your work. One of the conclusions I've come to in doing my thesis project is that people should more actively use the listserves to promote their work: women writing about women :-) I'd love to see more reader-author discussions take place. ---------- >From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" >To: feministsf@UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg >Date: Tue, Aug 21, 2001, 5:17 PM > >Forgive the self-serving aspect, but in case it's of interest to you, my >books (GLASS HOUSES-1992 Tor, PROXIES-1997/8 Tor, and the forthcoming >BURNING THE ICE-2002 Tor) all have female/cyborg elements as well. My >novelette "At Tide's Turning," due out late this year in Gardner Dozois's >WORLDMAKERS anthology, taken from BURNING THE ICE, also has the >woman-machine connection. > > > >-l. >-- >Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > >Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:30:56 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: earthyfemme Subject: Re: on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <20010821202252.GDAF1975.priv-edtnes12-hme0.telusplanet.net@[161.184.43.250]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I know the list has heard from me already twice but it just occured to me that maybe that some more examples of cyborganica could include the anime film Ghost in the Shell (granted, this is a female lead as imagined by a male artist/filmmaker) or the Babylon Five ep (don't recall the name and I'll look it up later I promise!) where Cmdr. Ivanova encounters a monolithic biomechanoid that has a tendency to cyberize other beings that interface with it.. Vivian -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:59:21 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Glory Season + general ramble as per me Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:05 AM 8/22/01 +1000, Maire wrote: >Hi all, >I just wanted to ask if anyone has read Glory Season by David Brin. If so, did they find it offensive, patronising, interesting what... I have gained the impression that the book is one of those 'women trying to rule the world and stuffing it up' type books. Is this anywere near the truth? Or is it more subtle than that? I have enjoyed other of Brin;s books, but certainly I wasnt reading them for teh feminist perspective. None of the above. It's a pretty fat book, covering a lot of an entire world, so it can't boil down to a couple paragraphs, but I think what ticked people off is that in Brin's world-run-by-women, there are entrenched political powers which will stop at almost nothing to preserve their privileges and power, though they're often careful and subtle . . . that is, women politicians and movers&shakers are a lot like the male ones. Personally, I don't have to suspend much disbelief. I'd read the book before I knew about the brouhaha, and liked it. (There's a separate issue of the author feeling he didn't get enough adulation for the book, but we're discussing the book here, not the author. The difficulty of fitting him with a hat has been well-known for some time.) Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:53:33 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Cronin Subject: Re: Glory Season + general ramble as per me Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I cant remember where, but somewhere I read a very damning review of GS... > something along the lines of it seems as though Brin set out to write a > feminist utopia to prove that men can write/imagine/cope with the idea... > but his inherent semi-misogynism came out subtly and ruined the whole thing. > I am pretty srue that the review was by a man, oddly enough. Ursula K LeGuin wrote a short review that was something along those lines; it's om the tiptree awards website; Glory Season was shortlisted the year it was written. -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:57:36 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suppose the Tin Woodman of Oz might qualify -- IIRC he was human to begin with. Another Tepper: the Duke of Eyes in Marianne, The Madame and the Momentary Gods. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems.