From LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Tue Feb 12 16:31:54 2002 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:48:10 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Q Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0108D" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:49:16 GMT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Another Tepper: the Duke of Eyes in Marianne, The Madame and the Momentary Gods. > I missed the Tepper suggestion! Was this the dinka-jins (?sp) in _Sideshow_? Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk Website: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:35:09 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rowena Subject: Re: Glory Season + general ramble as per me Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 21 Aug 2001, at 20:59, Neil Rest wrote: > At 01:05 AM 8/22/01 +1000, Maire wrote: > >Hi all, > >I just wanted to ask if anyone has read Glory Season by David Brin. > Personally, I don't have to suspend much disbelief. I'd read the > book before I knew about the brouhaha, and liked it. I must say I also quite liked it, only the end I found somewhat dissatisfying. The world portrayed is a very stable/static one but whether that is because it is 'women ruled' or mostly 'clone ruled' I find hard to say. I found it reasonably believable as a description of an 'aimed at utopia' type of society (you know, group of people with very specific ideas collonizes planet to found a perfect society.) Slightly troublesome might be that in the design of this perfect world men are quite drasticaly genetically modified so they will accept/fit in the role they have in society (appears not to be fullproof, but it is the aim), if you are of an anti-feminist mindset and harbour the assumption that feminists are some kind of castrating manhaters you could see an affirmation of this idea in the designs of the founding mothers of this world. But I don't think that that was the aim of the author though. Rowena -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:11:30 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Another Tepper: the Duke of Eyes in Marianne, The Madame and the Momentary Gods. > >I missed the Tepper suggestion! Was this the dinka-jins >(?sp) in _Sideshow_? Lesley Hall Yes, and (damn, still can't remember the name, meant to go and look) ??The Inquisitor?? in Six-Moon Dance. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:51:09 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Paul Simpson Subject: Submit Your Work to a New Literature Website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004F_01C12B33.06745BE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C12B33.06745BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone: I have just launched a website, Links to Literature = [www.linkstoliterature.com]. I would like to post essays, articles, and = biographies about authors [or about their works] on the site, in order = to make them available to teachers, students, and other researchers. If you have any material that you would like to make available to the = web community, please consider submitting it to the site. You would be = fully credited with the submission, of course, and retain all rights to = remove/change the article at any time. Also, if you run a website, or know of another valuable literature site, you can suggest that it be added to Links to Literature. Thank you for your consideration, Paul Simpson [contact@linkstoliterature.com] www.linkstoliterature.com ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C12B33.06745BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Everyone:

I have just = launched a website,=20 Links to Literature [www.linkstoliterature.com]. I would like to = post=20 essays, articles, and biographies about authors [or about their works] = on the=20 site, in order to make them available to teachers, students, and other=20 researchers.

If you have any=20 material that you would like to make available to the web community, = please=20 consider submitting it to the site.  You would be fully credited = with the=20 submission, of course, and retain all rights to remove/change the = article at any=20 time.

Also, if you run a website, or know of another valuable = literature=20 site,
you can suggest that it be added to Links to = Literature.

Thank=20 you for your consideration,

Paul Simpson [contact@linkstoliterature.com]
<= STRONG>www.linkstoliterature.com
------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C12B33.06745BE0-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:27:26 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: [*FSFFU] New Trek series Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just got the new TV Guide which has articles on the new Trek series, called Enterprise. There is yet a another woman in a sprayed on cat suit. She's a vulcan and the second in command. But there is good news, the other woman in the cast wears the same type of uniform as the men. And its not one of those one piece things that the women wore in Next Generation and DS9. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:39:05 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <01f801c12b0b$fd701420$7b4579a5@vze2fftf> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Also in Sideshow- the twins are altered into a seal and a bird by the HObbs Land Gods Maire ^ÓPersonhole is not an acceptable de-sexed word^Ō ^Ö Shirley Dean, council person from the Berkeley (California) City Council, explaining why the Council changed the wording in a sewer equipment request, back to manhole cover > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Frances > Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2001 11:12 PM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] WG: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg > > > > Another Tepper: the Duke of Eyes in Marianne, The > Madame and the Momentary Gods. > > > > >I missed the Tepper suggestion! Was this the dinka-jins > >(?sp) in _Sideshow_? > > Lesley Hall > > Yes, and (damn, still can't remember the name, meant to go and look) ??The > Inquisitor?? in Six-Moon Dance. > > Frances > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 07:42:50 EDT Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: [*FSFFU] New Trek series Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/22/01 7:28:08 PM, EthierCN@AOL.COM writes: << There is yet a another woman in a sprayed on cat suit. She's a vulcan and the second in command. >> And in all the photos of her she has the same dour, humorless expression. best, phoebe w -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:18:51 -0300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patricia Monk Subject: Re: [*FSFFU] New Trek series Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do Vulcans have a sense of humour? Anyway, I think I'm going to like her - anyone who can work alongside someone in a sprayed-on cat suit and not collapse into hysterical laughter at frequent intervals obviously has a lot going for her. Phoebe Wray wrote: > > In a message dated 8/22/01 7:28:08 PM, EthierCN@AOL.COM writes: > > << There is yet a another woman in a sprayed on cat suit. She's a > vulcan and the second in command. >> > > And in all the photos of her she has the same dour, humorless expression. > > best, > phoebe w > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:18:24 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: [*FSFFU] New Trek series Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I just got the new TV Guide which has articles on the new Trek series, called > Enterprise. There is yet a another woman in a sprayed on cat suit. She's a > vulcan and the second in command. But there is good news, the other woman in More bad news is that the actor to play the Captain was the star of Quantum Leap. This actor's work is pretty pedestrian. He has no charisma and 'reads' (theater lingo for comes across) as dumb. Does anybody remember the scene when Captain Piccard and some other members of the crew amused themselves by doing a scene from Henry the Fifth? It was fabulous. Now picture Quatam Leap actor doing Shakespeare. Boring! Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:58:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: [*FSFFU] New Trek series Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I must disagree. Scott Bakula was nominated for 4 Emmy Awards during the course of QUANTUM LEAP, where in the course of his "jumps" he had to convincingly portray all ages, races and sexes that lived during his lifetime. He should do an excellent job. Marsha Valance Regional Librarian Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells St. Milwaukee, WI 53233 1.800.242.8822 [in-state] >>> cynthea@PRODIGY.NET 08/17/01 08:18PM >>> > I just got the new TV Guide which has articles on the new Trek series, called > Enterprise. There is yet a another woman in a sprayed on cat suit. She's a > vulcan and the second in command. But there is good news, the other woman in More bad news is that the actor to play the Captain was the star of Quantum Leap. This actor's work is pretty pedestrian. He has no charisma and 'reads' (theater lingo for comes across) as dumb. Does anybody remember the scene when Captain Piccard and some other members of the crew amused themselves by doing a scene from Henry the Fifth? It was fabulous. Now picture Quatam Leap actor doing Shakespeare. Boring! Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 23:58:41 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: Science vs humanities TAN Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Cynthia: > > Oh my. Since the semester is about to start and great honking heavy > workloads will make life a lot less easygoing, could you please tell more of > this story? Offlist if others would prefer Hi, your email doesn't have your own email for me to answer you off list, mine is cynthea@prodigy.net if you'd still like to hear the story. Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:51:42 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: earthyfemme Subject: Is there a Roboticist in the House? Comments: To: Feminist SF Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit People, I'm doing some 'homework'.. are there are any Artificial Intelligence experts or students, programmers, and electronic engineers on the list who can help me out with some odd questions? Thanks and much obliged, Vivian -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:14:51 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Is there a Roboticist in the House? Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 8/26/01 1:51 PM, earthyfemme at earthyfemme@EARTHLINK.NET wrote: > People, > > I'm doing some 'homework'.. are there are any Artificial Intelligence > experts or students, programmers, and electronic engineers on the list who > can help me out with some odd questions? > > > Thanks and much obliged, > > Vivian Vivan, I'm not one, but I know a couple people who may be able to help you. If no one else is able to answer your question, I'll be glad to forward it to my friends in the biz. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 16:32:41 +0200 Reply-To: p.mayerhofer@web.de Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Petra Mayerhofer Subject: AW: [*FSFFU*] on being cyborg Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <20010816214042.OJYS1975.priv-edtnes12-hme0.telusplanet.net@[161.184.43.244]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Question Four: I could use more examples of fictional > cyborgs, particularly > female cyborgs. As far as I know (I have not read all of these books) you can add to your list - Mindplayers by Pat Cadigan - China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh - The Annunciate by Severna Park - perhaps also Brain Plague by Joan Slonczewski As a matter of fact I think the list of female cyborgs (here I mean a female body with integrated technology not 'hybridity', the fusion of two different organisms) in fiction is surprisingly small, including those already mentioned so far. I just looked through my bookcase and I could not add more. But perhaps that's purely a matter what of I apparently prefer (I'm no cyberpunk aficionado (a?) ). By the way, the pilots in Bujold's Vorkosigan Universum would also count. Was there ever a female one? Petra -- Petra Mayerhofer p.mayerhofer@web.de oder p_mayerhofer@yahoo.com Feministische phantastisch-utopische Literatur http://www.feministische-sf.de -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 19:07:53 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ingrid Thaler Subject: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <000601c128bd$34dcf370$bd66e2c3@pc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello there: I am not only new to this list but also new to the genre(s) that are discussed here. I got into all this stuff by reading feminist utopias of the 1970s and by being totally fascinated by Haraway's oh-so-famous-but-nebulous "Cyborg Manifesto." Haraway also got me into Octavia Butler's texts. And that's why I'm looking for your help: I am teaching American Studies at the English department at the University of Marburg, Germany, and I just started developing a PhD thesis that focuses on her work. I would like to include a chapter that provides a historical background of the genre(s) in which Butler can be included, which means, I am looking for some kind of literary tradition that is concerned with both race and gender. But that's where the problem starts: You can either include Butler in the feminist utopia /scifi section, or you envision her somehow related to a (male-dominated) small tradition of Afro-American Speculative Fiction that's supposed to begin with William Blake's "Delany," or you try to incorporate her in a tradition of black women writing that mostly consists of "realistic" fiction. Now here's my BIG problem: Can anyone of you come up with pre-1970 speculative fiction that either features a woman-of-color protagonist or is written by a black woman author? Looking at secondary literature, it appears pretty obvious that the "literature of the imaginative" tends to ignore issues of race, as Elisabeth Anne Leonard points out in her introduction to "Race and Color in the Fantastic." But even when looking at race, the interweavings of race and gender seem to be a blank page in criticism, and can be found in the fictions of Butler, Delany, and LeGuin's very recent "The Telling." I have read Nalo Hopkinson and I'll get Jewelle Gomez. Other than that, I have only heard of Nicola Grififth's "Ammonite." Do you know of a) primary or b) secondary literature in this area?? Do you have any suggestions yourself why this is the case? Thanks so much! Yours, Ingrid -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:36:36 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hiya nebulous > literary tradition that is concerned with both race and gender. > Now here's my BIG problem: Can anyone of you come up with pre-1970 > speculative fiction that either features a woman-of-color protagonist or is > written by a black woman author? Looking at secondary literature, it appears > Do you know of a) primary or b) secondary literature in this area?? Do you > have any suggestions yourself why this is the case? LeGuin's The Lathe of Heaven jumps to mind. Although the protagonist is not black or a woman, the supporting lead is and that is very crucial to the story. There was a movie made of this story too. I think that because before 1970 most sf authors were men there just weren't any female protagonists at all. Indeed that was a deciding factor in my writing sf and why I only use female protagonists. Another reason for not using non-white characters is most authors' feeling they ought to write what they know. Few white people, especially white men, are going to feel comfortable portraying a black person, not because of prejudice, but because of respect, the desire to always portray characters realistically, feeling that they can't really know what it is to be black. For instance, I once wrote a play with Spaniards in it. I'm married to a Spaniard so I felt pretty confident I knew what I was about. When I showed it to my husband he nearly bust a gut laughing. To him it was totally unrealistic, more an idealized characicature of Spaniards, like the I Love Lucy show. (My husband then pronoucenced, between those humiliating guffaws, that the play would be a huge success in the US). It's one thing to prove to be a fool to one's spouse, quite another in public! (: Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:46:58 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Comments: cc: tiptree@tiptree.org, info@broaduniverse.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ingrid Thaler wrote: > > Hello there: > I am not only new to this list but also new to the genre(s) that are > discussed here. I got into all this stuff by reading feminist utopias of the > 1970s and by being totally fascinated by Haraway's oh-so-famous-but-nebulous > "Cyborg Manifesto." Haraway also got me into Octavia Butler's texts. And > that's why I'm looking for your help: I am teaching American Studies at the > English department at the University of Marburg, Germany, and I just > started developing a PhD thesis that focuses on her work. I would like to > include a chapter that provides a historical background of the genre(s) in > which Butler can be included, which means, I am looking for some kind of > literary tradition that is concerned with both race and gender. But that's > where the problem starts: You can either include Butler in the feminist > utopia /scifi section, or you envision her somehow related to a > (male-dominated) small tradition of Afro-American Speculative Fiction that's > supposed to begin with William Blake's "Delany," or you try to incorporate > her in a tradition of black women writing that mostly consists of > "realistic" fiction. > Now here's my BIG problem: Can anyone of you come up with pre-1970 > speculative fiction that either features a woman-of-color protagonist or is > written by a black woman author? Looking at secondary literature, it appears > pretty obvious that the "literature of the imaginative" tends to ignore > issues of race, as Elisabeth Anne Leonard points out in her introduction to > "Race and Color in the Fantastic." But even when looking at race, the > interweavings of race and gender seem to be a blank page in criticism, and > can be found in the fictions of Butler, Delany, and LeGuin's very recent > "The Telling." I have read Nalo Hopkinson and I'll get Jewelle Gomez. Other > than that, I have only heard of Nicola Grififth's "Ammonite." > Do you know of a) primary or b) secondary literature in this area?? Do you > have any suggestions yourself why this is the case? Let me be the first of hundreds to tell you to put down whatever you are doing, go to your nearest independent bookstore, and purchase one or more copies of DARK MATTER: A Century of Speculative Fiction from the African Diaspora, edited by Sheree R. Thomas. In additional to the additional writers you'll pick up on, the essays Racism and Science Fiction, by Samuel R. Delany Why Blacks Should Read (and Write) Science Fiction, by Charles R. Saunders Black to the Future, by Walter Mosley Yet Do I Wonder, by Paul D. Miller, a.k.a. DJ Spooky That Subliminal Kid The Monophobic Response, by Octavia E. Butler should tell you where we're coming from, and where we're going. Past that, you need to get in touch with: the Carl Brandon Society, which is dedicated to addressing the representation of people of color in the fantastical genres such as science fiction, fantasy and horror, aiming to foster dialogue about issues of race, ethnicity and culture, raise awareness both inside and outside the fantastical fiction communities, promote inclusivity in publication/production, and celebrate the accomplishments of people of color in science fiction, fantasy and horror (founded at WisCon in 1999): http://www.carlbrandon.org/ and Broad Universe, a new organization with the primary goal of promoting science fiction, fantasy, and horror written by women (which originated in a discussion at WisCon 2000): http://www.broaduniverse.org/ I also recommend you take a look at the website for the James Tiptree, Jr. Award, an annual literary prize for science fiction or fantasy that explores and expands the roles of women and men for work by both women and men (announced at WisCon in 1991): http://www.tiptree.org/ -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey Cultures & Communities Program University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:49:41 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Mellen Subject: Re: Is there a Roboticist in the House? Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 8/26/01 2:51 PM, earthyfemme at earthyfemme@EARTHLINK.NET wrote: > I'm doing some 'homework'.. are there are any Artificial Intelligence > experts or students, programmers, and electronic engineers on the list who > can help me out with some odd questions? Hi Vivian; I'm doing some research on Artificial Intelligence also, for one of the two novels I'm working on. Would you like to share; research finds, experts, questions? Might be able to cover more territory that way. Let me know if this interests you. Thanks - Mellen -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:54:56 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Marsha Valance Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What about Zora Neale Hurston--there is a fantact element to much of her work. Also, it's not pre1970, but Andre Norton wrote about a black female protagonist in WRAITHS OF TIME (1976). HTH, Marsha Valance Regional Librarian Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped 813 West Wells St. Milwaukee, WI 53233 1.800.242.8822 [in-state] >>> ithaler@WEB.DE 08/27/01 12:07PM >>> Hello there: I am not only new to this list but also new to the genre(s) that are discussed here. I got into all this stuff by reading feminist utopias of the 1970s and by being totally fascinated by Haraway's oh-so-famous-but-nebulous "Cyborg Manifesto." Haraway also got me into Octavia Butler's texts. And that's why I'm looking for your help: I am teaching American Studies at the English department at the University of Marburg, Germany, and I just started developing a PhD thesis that focuses on her work. I would like to include a chapter that provides a historical background of the genre(s) in which Butler can be included, which means, I am looking for some kind of literary tradition that is concerned with both race and gender. But that's where the problem starts: You can either include Butler in the feminist utopia /scifi section, or you envision her somehow related to a (male-dominated) small tradition of Afro-American Speculative Fiction that's supposed to begin with William Blake's "Delany," or you try to incorporate her in a tradition of black women writing that mostly consists of "realistic" fiction. Now here's my BIG problem: Can anyone of you come up with pre-1970 speculative fiction that either features a woman-of-color protagonist or is written by a black woman author? Looking at secondary literature, it appears pretty obvious that the "literature of the imaginative" tends to ignore issues of race, as Elisabeth Anne Leonard points out in her introduction to "Race and Color in the Fantastic." But even when looking at race, the interweavings of race and gender seem to be a blank page in criticism, and can be found in the fictions of Butler, Delany, and LeGuin's very recent "The Telling." I have read Nalo Hopkinson and I'll get Jewelle Gomez. Other than that, I have only heard of Nicola Grififth's "Ammonite." Do you know of a) primary or b) secondary literature in this area?? Do you have any suggestions yourself why this is the case? Thanks so much! Yours, Ingrid -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:22:44 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Now here's my BIG problem: Can anyone of you come up with pre-1970 > speculative fiction that either features a woman-of-color protagonist or is > written by a black woman author? This is a BIIIIG stretch and a very marginal one -- Podkayne's grandfather was Fijiian, I think. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:17:03 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Sara H. Brosnan" Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <> Try taking a look at Dark Matter: A Century of Speculative Fiction from the African Diaspora. Edited by Sheree R. Thomas. It's been about a year since I read it so I don't remember specific stories, but I believe that there is some pre-1970 with either a woman-of-color protagonist or that it is written by a black woman author. Good luck. I would be interesting in hearing/seeing how your PHD thesis turns out. Sara -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:49:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia wrote: > > Now here's my BIG problem: Can anyone of you come up with pre-1970 > > speculative fiction that either features a woman-of-color protagonist or > is > > written by a black woman author? Looking at secondary literature, it > appears > > Do you know of a) primary or b) secondary literature in this area?? Do you > > have any suggestions yourself why this is the case? > > LeGuin's The Lathe of Heaven jumps to mind. Although the protagonist is not > black or a woman, the supporting lead is and that is very crucial to the > story. There was a movie made of this story too. I think that because > before 1970 most sf authors were men there just weren't any female > protagonists at all. That's a little overbroad as a generalization. Back in the 70s I did a chart for the Nashville Science Fiction Club's discussion group, showing the steady rise in the number of female protagonists in Andre Norton's novels from her beginnings in the 1950 to the current times. It was not simply a matter of prejudices on the part of publishers or editors, either; conventional wisdom of the time held that readers would not accept women or people of color as protagonists as readily as they would white males. One solution, of course, was the Heinleinian one, where one doesn't know that the character isn't Anglo until the last pages of the book. This is a harder trick to pull off, obviously, with gender. :) -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey Cultures & Communities Program University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:54:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frances wrote: > > > Now here's my BIG problem: Can anyone of you come up with pre-1970 > > speculative fiction that either features a woman-of-color protagonist or > is > > written by a black woman author? > > This is a BIIIIG stretch and a very marginal one -- Podkayne's grandfather > was Fijiian, I think. At the time Heinlein was writing, though, a Fijian grandparent would have been a big deal; she would have been considered non-white by most contemporary Americans, albeit diluted enough that it might have been an "exotic" rather than a "mulatto" kind of characteristic. The big deal in the Heinlein book, of course, is that it is NOT a big deal; he did this a lot (think the "arrested in Kentucky" incident in THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS). -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:43:17 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jessie Stickgold-Sarah Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" You might also consider literature classified as "magical realism", though I don't know if that won't work for you--_Mama Day_ by Gloria Naylor is the first that springs to mind. It's not generally read or discussed as SF, but if it featured a white woman going home to Ireland and messing around with pixies, rather than a Carribean (?) woman (it's been a while since I read it) going home and dealing with voodoo, everyone would call it fantasy. Jessie -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:38:32 -0400 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <200108281243.IAA18258@all-night-tool.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Jessie, Wow! I never would have thought of _Mama Day_. I really enjoyed that book when I first heard it - I happened to borrow it from the library as a book on tape. I think she actually goes home to an island off the Coast of the Carolinas, but it definitely has the flavor of New Orleans and the magic of voodoo. It's a really good book anyway. Thanks for the reminder of it. Rose >You might also consider literature classified as "magical realism", >though I don't know if that won't work for you--_Mama Day_ by Gloria >Naylor is the first that springs to mind. It's not generally read or >discussed as SF, but if it featured a white woman going home to Ireland >and messing around with pixies, rather than a Carribean (?) woman (it's >been a while since I read it) going home and dealing with voodoo, >everyone would call it fantasy. > >Jessie > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > >Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:55:32 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I think that because > > before 1970 most sf authors were men there just weren't any female > > protagonists at all. > > That's a little overbroad as a generalization. Back in the > 70s I did a chart for the Nashville Science Fiction Club's > discussion group, showing the steady rise in the number of > female protagonists in Andre Norton's novels from her > beginnings in the 1950 to the current times Of course you are right Michael, but as of 1970 I had not yet read anyof Norton's work, and as I answered I was remembering my frustration of all the sf *I* was reading at the time having all these male protagonistists. Let me also take this opportunity for your wonderful list of non white male sf! I've printed it out for it to accompany me to the bookstore and libary. (: Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:09:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rose Reith wrote: > > Wow! I never would have thought of _Mama Day_. I really enjoyed that > book when I first heard it - I happened to borrow it from the library > as a book on tape. I think she actually goes home to an island off > the Coast of the Carolinas, but it definitely has the flavor of New > Orleans and the magic of voodoo. It's a really good book anyway. > Thanks for the reminder of it. > Rose > > >You might also consider literature classified as "magical realism", > >though I don't know if that won't work for you--_Mama Day_ by Gloria > >Naylor is the first that springs to mind. It's not generally read or > >discussed as SF, but if it featured a white woman going home to Ireland > >and messing around with pixies, rather than a Carribean (?) woman (it's > >been a while since I read it) going home and dealing with voodoo, > >everyone would call it fantasy. It's part of the "redefinition" problem: if something is good or interesting or useful within the context of academic politics, redefine it as "minority literature" or "magic realism" and you can study it without being scorned as one of those disgusting little proles who reads science-fiction and fantasy. This particularly angers me with Octavia Butler, who never has been ashamed of what she writes, but is now studied by droves of academicians who would never deign to touch Andre Norton or C. J. Cherryh or Lois McMaster Bujold or Robin McKinley. -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey needs to be packing stuff in boxes -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:21:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Jennifer R. J." Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <3B8BB424.29589769@uwm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I couldn't have said it better myself! I've also noticed that if an SFF author gets to be a best-seller, then he or she is categorized as "fiction" rather than science fiction or fantasy. I think it's part of the same "redefinition." If hordes of people read it, then it must not be seen as speculative! I've noticed the same thing you mention below about Octavia E. Butler happens with Ursula K. LeGuin too. Somehow her books are "literate" so it's okay to read her SF. Jennifer At 10:09 AM 8/28/01 -0500, you wrote: >It's part of the "redefinition" problem: if something is >good or interesting or useful within the context of academic >politics, redefine it as "minority literature" or "magic >realism" and you can study it without being scorned as one >of those disgusting little proles who reads science-fiction >and fantasy. This particularly angers me with Octavia >Butler, who never has been ashamed of what she writes, but >is now studied by droves of academicians who would never >deign to touch Andre Norton or C. J. Cherryh or Lois >McMaster Bujold or Robin McKinley. >Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey >needs to be packing stuff in boxes -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:33:53 +0200 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Ingrid Thaler Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ Subject: Re: Woman of Color / A Response Comments: To: feministsf@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Ya All: thanks for your enthusiastic responses and for providing me with some new names. Yes, I agree that one has to avoid labeling fiction as scifi or fantasy in order to introduce it into the canon, and yes, that is annoying. But I think that more recent developments in the academy have perpetuated a bit more of respect and interest. Octavia Butler is a scifi writer, but at the same time, she works with other narrative means and traditions, most notably the Afro American literary tradition, of course, and to look at her from that angle is definitely worth considering. I think that postmodernism in general has brought forth a more relaxed attitude with genre boundaries and with considerations of so-called "high" and "pop" culture, and that's part of the reason why so many writers transgress genre boundaries that had been considered as stable 50 years ago. Octavia Butler is definitely one of them, so is Kurt Vonnegut, for example (by the way one of the few scifi writers who have somehow slipped out of the scifi-bashing). I would refrain from considering scifi as "only" scifi literature, and if other labels such as magic realism (which is something different as scifi as I would argue but certainly an alliance of scifi) manage to introduce writers into the literary canon, it could be a worthwhile strategy. I mean, I am an assistant at the department of English and American Studies and when I applied for this job, I handed in an expose of my thesis in which I openly discuss the various genres Butler can be included in---and, despite that, I got the job. Of course, a lot of professors are not interested at all, but I think, it's slowly changing. Ten years ago I would have experienced serious difficulties in financing my project AND finding a prof who would accept my thesis. And I would consider that as an improvement, even if things are not how they c/should be at the academy. Jessie, thanks for reminding me of "Mama Day", a book I have also stumbled upon recently. Nalo Hopkinson uses the label "Magic realism" herself in the "Acknowledgments" of "Brown Girl in the Ring," and one could definitely take it into consdieration as a specifically African American tradition of non-naturalistic writing that would also include Ishmael Reed, for example, or Toni Morrison's "Beloved." And I think you're absolutely right, Marsha, about Zora Neale Hurston as a precursor to woman writers like Butler. Marleen Barr does an interesting job when she tries to read Hurston and Bulter exactly in the way you are suggesting in "Feminist fabulation" (1992). Andre Norton is somebody I don't know but whom I will definitely check out. I already own a copy of "dark Matter" but this anthology exactly positions the problem I'm talking about: There is a growing body of texts in speculative fiction written by women of color and featuring women of color, as exemplified in that anthology, but if you look at the text included that date back a bit, there are only established male writers, such as DuBois, Schuyler and Chesnutt, who ARE dealing with race. But it seems to be an either-or decision: either you write about feminism and gender, OR you focus on race, but no earlier writer is interested in the relationship between the two.The stories in this anthology are very fascinating, but they are almost all pieces of the 1990s. What Cynthia argues brings me back to the issue of class: As a white person it is difficult to write about black people, and some might consider this even as insulting. But then: all those books on women in utopia and scifi stress that this kind of literature was a way for female writers to express their ideas about social structures and equality of the sexes without being too threatening to white male patriarchy. and then one could conclude from that that something similiar could be the casse with the issue of color, namely, that it is a privileged genre for minorities and discriminated groups. But obviously that is not the case... Sorry, I hope my message is not too long but I really like what you came up with and I needed to respond to all that since it is crucial to me. Yours, Ingrid "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" schrieb am 28.08.01: > Rose Reith wrote: > > > > Wow! I never would have thought of _Mama Day_. I really enjoyed that > > book when I first heard it - I happened to borrow it from the library > > as a book on tape. I think she actually goes home to an island off > > the Coast of the Carolinas, but it definitely has the flavor of New > > Orleans and the magic of voodoo. It's a really good book anyway. > > Thanks for the reminder of it. > > Rose > > > > >You might also consider literature classified as "magical realism", > > >though I don't know if that won't work for you--_Mama Day_ by Gloria > > >Naylor is the first that springs to mind. It's not generally read or > > >discussed as SF, but if it featured a white woman going home to Ireland > > >and messing around with pixies, rather than a Carribean (?) woman (it's > > >been a while since I read it) going home and dealing with voodoo, > > >everyone would call it fantasy. > > It's part of the "redefinition" problem: if something is > good or interesting or useful within the context of academic > politics, redefine it as "minority literature" or "magic > realism" and you can study it without being scorned as one > of those disgusting little proles who reads science-fiction > and fantasy. This particularly angers me with Octavia > Butler, who never has been ashamed of what she writes, but > is now studied by droves of academicians who would never > deign to touch Andre Norton or C. J. Cherryh or Lois > McMaster Bujold or Robin McKinley. > > -- > Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey > needs to be packing stuff in boxes > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. Ingrid Thaler HOME: Wodanstr. 63, 90461 Nürnberg; Tel. (0911) 4808671; OFFICE: Philipps-Universität Marburg, Institut f. Anglistik und Amerikanistik, Wilhelm-Röpke-Str. 6D, 35039 Marburg Tel. (06421) 2824357 _______________________________________________________________________ 1.000.000 DM gewinnen - kostenlos tippen - http://millionenklick.web.de IhrName@web.de, 8MB Speicher, Verschluesselung - http://freemail.web.de -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:36:28 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Patricia Mathews Subject: Re: Woman of Color / Black female protagonist Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010828121412.01feb950@mail.superior.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Tuesday, August 28, 2001 12:21 PM -0700 "Jennifer R. J." wrote: > I couldn't have said it better myself! I've also noticed that if an > SFF author gets to be a best-seller, then he or she is categorized as > "fiction" rather than science fiction or fantasy. I think it's part of > the same "redefinition." If hordes of people read it, then it must not > be seen as speculative! > And when I go looking for murder mysteries, a lot of them say "A Novel" on the back, as if to say "WE'RE not genre fiction!" Pat -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:37:22 +1000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maire Subject: Re: Woman of Color / A Response Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" In-Reply-To: <200108281833.f7SIXrp00867@mailgate3.cinetic.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Better be careful, Ingrid! You'll get in trouble from someone for using the term scifi! Maire : ) Currently Reading: The Riddle-Master Trilogy by Patricia McKilip; Half the Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; Elric by Moorcock; Threshold by Sara Douglass; The Master-Harper of Pern by Anne McCaffrey Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; The Keepers by Pauline Kirk; Ender;s Game by OSC > -----Original Message----- > From: For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > [mailto:feministsf@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Ingrid Thaler > Sent: Wednesday, 29 August 2001 4:34 AM > To: feministsf@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Woman of Color / A Response > > > Dear Ya All: > thanks for your enthusiastic responses and for providing me with > some new names. Yes, I agree that one has to avoid labeling > fiction as scifi or fantasy in order to introduce it into the > canon, and yes, that is annoying. > But I think that more recent developments in the academy have > perpetuated a bit more of respect and interest. Octavia Butler is > a scifi writer, but at the same time, she works with other > narrative means and traditions, most notably the Afro American > literary tradition, of course, and to look at her from that angle > is definitely worth considering. I think that postmodernism in > general has brought forth a more relaxed attitude with genre > boundaries and with considerations of so-called "high" and "pop" > culture, and that's part of the reason why so many writers > transgress genre boundaries that had been considered as stable 50 > years ago. Octavia Butler is definitely one of them, so is Kurt > Vonnegut, for example (by the way one of the few scifi writers > who have somehow slipped out of the scifi-bashing). I would > refrain from considering scifi as "only" scifi literature, and if > other labels such as magic realism (which is something different > as scifi as I would argue but certainly an alliance of scifi) > manage to introduce writers into the literary canon, it could be > a worthwhile strategy. I mean, I am an assistant at the > department of English and American Studies and when I applied for > this job, I handed in an expose of my thesis in which I openly > discuss the various genres Butler can be included in---and, > despite that, I got the job. Of course, a lot of professors are > not interested at all, but I think, it's slowly changing. Ten > years ago I would have experienced serious difficulties in > financing my project AND finding a prof who would accept my > thesis. And I would consider that as an improvement, even if > things are not how they c/should be at the academy. > Jessie, thanks for reminding me of "Mama Day", a book I have also > stumbled upon recently. Nalo Hopkinson uses the label "Magic > realism" herself in the "Acknowledgments" of "Brown Girl in the > Ring," and one could definitely take it into consdieration as a > specifically African American tradition of non-naturalistic > writing that would also include Ishmael Reed, for example, or > Toni Morrison's "Beloved." > And I think you're absolutely right, Marsha, about Zora Neale > Hurston as a precursor to woman writers like Butler. Marleen Barr > does an interesting job when she tries to read Hurston and Bulter > exactly in the way you are suggesting in "Feminist fabulation" > (1992). Andre Norton is somebody I don't know but whom I will > definitely check out. > I already own a copy of "dark Matter" but this anthology exactly > positions the problem I'm talking about: There is a growing body > of texts in speculative fiction written by women of color and > featuring women of color, as exemplified in that anthology, but > if you look at the text included that date back a bit, there are > only established male writers, such as DuBois, Schuyler and > Chesnutt, who ARE dealing with race. But it seems to be an > either-or decision: either you write about feminism and gender, > OR you focus on race, but no earlier writer is interested in the > relationship between the two.The stories in this anthology are > very fascinating, but they are almost all pieces of the 1990s. > What Cynthia argues brings me back to the issue of class: As a > white person it is difficult to write about black people, and > some might consider this even as insulting. But then: all those > books on women in utopia and scifi stress that this kind of > literature was a way for female writers to express their ideas > about social structures and equality of the sexes without being > too threatening to white male patriarchy. and then one could > conclude from that that something similiar could be the casse > with the issue of color, namely, that it is a privileged genre > for minorities and discriminated groups. But obviously that is > not the case... > Sorry, I hope my message is not too long but I really like what > you came up with and I needed to respond to all that since it is > crucial to me. > Yours, Ingrid > > > > > > "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > schrieb am 28.08.01: > > Rose Reith wrote: > > > > > > Wow! I never would have thought of _Mama Day_. I really enjoyed that > > > book when I first heard it - I happened to borrow it from the library > > > as a book on tape. I think she actually goes home to an island off > > > the Coast of the Carolinas, but it definitely has the flavor of New > > > Orleans and the magic of voodoo. It's a really good book anyway. > > > Thanks for the reminder of it. > > > Rose > > > > > > >You might also consider literature classified as "magical realism", > > > >though I don't know if that won't work for you--_Mama Day_ by Gloria > > > >Naylor is the first that springs to mind. It's not generally read or > > > >discussed as SF, but if it featured a white woman going home > to Ireland > > > >and messing around with pixies, rather than a Carribean (?) > woman (it's > > > >been a while since I read it) going home and dealing with voodoo, > > > >everyone would call it fantasy. > > > > It's part of the "redefinition" problem: if something is > > good or interesting or useful within the context of academic > > politics, redefine it as "minority literature" or "magic > > realism" and you can study it without being scorned as one > > of those disgusting little proles who reads science-fiction > > and fantasy. This particularly angers me with Octavia > > Butler, who never has been ashamed of what she writes, but > > is now studied by droves of academicians who would never > > deign to touch Andre Norton or C. J. Cherryh or Lois > > McMaster Bujold or Robin McKinley. > > > > -- > > Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey > > needs to be packing stuff in boxes > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe feministsf > > > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > Ingrid Thaler > HOME: Wodanstr. 63, 90461 Nürnberg; > Tel. (0911) 4808671; > OFFICE: Philipps-Universität Marburg, > Institut f. Anglistik und Amerikanistik, > Wilhelm-Röpke-Str. 6D, 35039 Marburg > Tel. (06421) 2824357 > > _______________________________________________________________________ > 1.000.000 DM gewinnen - kostenlos tippen - http://millionenklick.web.de > IhrName@web.de, 8MB Speicher, Verschluesselung - http://freemail.web.de > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe feministsf > > Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:46:43 -0700 Reply-To: publicity@mystgalaxy.com Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: good news about DARK MATTER Comments: To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a second volume, combining older and new material, is in the works per Betsy Mitchell, Warner Aspect editor. Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the feministsf listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe feministsf Contact feministsf-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems.