From LISTSERV@listserv.uic.edu Fri Jan 26 13:41:05 2001 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:59:16 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0101C" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:23:53 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: lquilter Subject: anthologies - help Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu, feministsf-lit@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hey y'all - i'm looking for the tables of contents of the following anthologies -- if anyone can help by taking a little time & keying them in for me it would be great. the information is to be included on the feminist-sf anthologies pages -- www.feministsf.org/femsf/anths/ these are the anthologies i either don't have or are packed away in boxes ... please be sure to include *all* contents including forewords, afterwords, additional reading lists, etc. any other interesting tidbits -- like artists, illustrations, different editions, etc. -- is gratefully appreciated. AND if you're really ambitious check out the anthologies pages and let me know if there are anthologies that should be included. i've included all-woman-author anthologies, all-female-protagonist anthologies, and anthologies that are oriented towards feminist concerns, gender issues, or so-called "women's issues" -- if there's an anthology you think should be included please tell me a little bit about it. and include any information about yourself you would like included in the credit. finally, do this OFF LIST !!! send to me directly at lquilter@feministsf.org Laura Quilter / lquilter@feministsf.org -------------------------------- Aliene, amazzoni, astronaute - Oriana Palusci - 1990 (in italian - english translation in addition to original italian would be desireable) chicks and chained mails - esther friesner - 2000? (3d in series) girls' night out: 29 female vampire stories - martin greenberg (date?) girls to the rescue - bruce lansky - date? the lifted veil: book of fantasic literature by women, 1800-wwii - a susan williams, 1992 penguin book of CLASSIC fantasy by women - never actually seen it; has anybody else? second virago book of fairy tales - angela carter - date? somewhere in the night - 8 gay tales of the supernatural - mcmahan, 1st & 2d editions (any difference?) marion zimmer bradley's sword & sorceress series: volume 2 volume 5 volume 6 volume 8 volume 11 volume 13 volume 15, 16, 17, 18 venus factor - vic ghidalia & roger elwood - 1972 virago book of ghost stories - dalby - 1989, 1987 (differences?) warrior princesses - scarborough & greenberg - date? women of darkness - ed by kathryn ptacek - 1989 - "original horror & dark fantasy by contemporary women writers" ---------------------- thanks again laura q -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:41:23 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: anthologies - help Comments: To: Feminist SF/Fantasy and Utopia Literature ON TOPIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Laura: What's the time frame on these? I would be willing to take on > women of darkness - ed by kathryn ptacek - 1989 - "original > horror & dark > fantasy by contemporary women writers" > wasn't there a second volume as well? Pax, Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:16:43 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: anthologies - help (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Time frame is whenever you can do it -- there's no deadline, but it's nice to get it done relatively soon. Say, in the next few weeks. And if there was a second volume I don't know about it, and would like to get info about both. Thanks. On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Maryelizabeth Hart wrote: > Hi, Laura: > > What's the time frame on these? > > I would be willing to take on > > > > women of darkness - ed by kathryn ptacek - 1989 - "original > > horror & dark > > fantasy by contemporary women writers" > > > > wasn't there a second volume as well? > > Pax, > > Maryelizabeth > > > -- > ******************************************************************* > Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 > 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 > San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 > http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: > mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com > > ******************************************************************* > > ------------------------------------------------------ > This is the FEMINISTSF-LIT listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF-LIT > > Contact FEMINISTSF-LIT-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:23:57 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: test please ignore MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0055_01C08173.70A41EC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C08173.70A41EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable am adjusting email program please ignore=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C08173.70A41EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
am adjusting email program please = ignore=20
------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C08173.70A41EC0-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:40:50 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: anthologies - help (fwd) In-Reply-To: Laura Quilter 's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:16:43 -0800 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) What do you all think of Cecilia Tan, Tamara Thorne, and Pat Califia? John -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:01:00 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Thorne, Tan, Califia-Rice: Vasquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Don't think I've read Thorne. From Tan, I've not yet read anything first-rate, but what I have read shows potential for better work (a double-handful of short stories). Califia(-Rice)'s short fiction I've read has been perhaps too jokingly brutal. Not camp, but closer to it than away. So, what do you think of their work? TM -----Original Message----- From: John Vazquez [mailto:BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET] What do you all think of Cecilia Tan, Tamara Thorne, and Pat Califia? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:57:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Thorne, Tan, Califia-Rice: Vasquez In-Reply-To: Todd Mason 's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:01:00 -0600 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Thorne's latest is an erotic horror novel hghly prasised by critics, Titled " Haunted" She's a relatively new writer but I've heard good things about her and enjoyed her novel. Pat Califia, as you probably know , writes everything from political commentary to s/m erotica to non- fiction manuals on lesbian and DSMN relationships. Her book, "Doc And Fluff" is banned in Canada. I happen to love her, but would like to hear from all of you as to how you feel about her and Cecilia Tan (which is still in an embryonic state to be fair to her- she is very young and can do great things) Shoot at me guys!! I want to hear it all. John -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:00:48 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Tan, Thorne, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Much as I really really like Cecelia personally, I tend to like her best as an editor, more so than as an author. There are exceptions -- like some fine pieces in BLACK FEATHERS. Tamara Thorne I think is too heavily invested in the horror genre to be particularly feminist, although I love her short story where a vibrator takes revenge on a man who sexually attacks a woman! She is also Chris Curry, BTW. Maryelizabeth just a postin' fool lately -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:10:27 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: An ambitious inquiry into the unknown, grin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C08182.5186E360" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C08182.5186E360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am setting up my project for a manuscript that will show a historical = context of Feminist Science Fiction, but one nagging matter that has = fueled my interest in this field have been the reactions I received when = I am asked about this project. One of the stages of this project I hope = will be to discuss the various reasonings behind the perceptions when = this term is heard or seen in print. To that end, I have begun an = inquiry process as to how to complete a survey that would help show the = disparity between perceptions, or perhaps show an agreement of a = particular perception at this time in history. Along with the available = avenues I have here in California, I will investigate as much as = possible the various ways and means of performing such a task. If = anyone has any suggestions or references as to an accepted standard for = completing such a survey, it would be much appreciated. Please reply = offlist to: silkstarlight@sprintmail.com =20 Sincerely, Jo Ann Rangel ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C08182.5186E360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am setting up my project for a = manuscript that=20 will show a historical context of Feminist Science Fiction, but one=20 nagging matter that has fueled my interest in this field have been = the=20 reactions I received when I am asked about this project.  One of = the stages=20 of this project I hope will be to discuss the various reasonings behind = the=20 perceptions when this term is heard or seen in print.  To that end, = I have=20 begun an inquiry process as to how to complete a survey that would help = show the=20 disparity between perceptions, or perhaps show an agreement of a = particular=20 perception at this time in history.  Along with the available = avenues I=20 have here in California, I will investigate as much as possible the = various ways=20 and means of performing such a task.  If anyone has any suggestions = or=20 references as to an accepted standard for completing such a survey, it = would be=20 much appreciated.  Please reply offlist to:
 
silkstarlight@sprintmail.com=    =20
 
Sincerely,
 
Jo Ann = Rangel
------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C08182.5186E360-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:12:02 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Tan, Thorne, etc. In-Reply-To: Maryelizabeth Hart 's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 19:00:48 -0800 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Maryelizabeth; you're the first person that has eve shown me good knowledge of Tan and Califia and Thorne. I agree with you on Thorne , nevertheless, how do you rate her skill as a writer? Tan, I agree with you 100%. But what do you make of Califia? Considerng she is so across the board. Condider "Macho Sluts", Doc And Fluff", and "Sensuous Magic"?? I very much would love to know what you make of her. She blows me away, but am I alone in this or what??? John -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:29:31 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Califia-Rice: Vasquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, John, if you're Really keeping up with Pat (Patrick, these days) Califia-Rice, you know he's getting his gender reassigned, to bend the argot a bit. I may take a look at Thorne, someday soon. TM -----Original Message----- From: John Vazquez [mailto:BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET] Pat Califia, as you probably know , writes everything from political commentary to s/m erotica to non- fiction manuals on lesbian and DSMN relationships. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:31:51 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Tan, Thorne, etc.: Hart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Grr, Me. Grr. (Unless growling at a dismissal of the potential of horror fiction to be feminist is in itself patriarchal oppression, then simply: "Shame!") TM -----Original Message----- From: Maryelizabeth Hart [mailto:publicity@MYSTGALAXY.COM] Tamara Thorne I think is too heavily invested in the horror genre to be particularly feminist, -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:48:46 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: May, 1961 F&SF and FANTASTIC-a review, no less. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Considering how many of these folk are gone (and how many may never get the appreciation they deserve), it's nice to be able to announce that Carol Emshwiller has a story in the new F&SF, Arthur Porges in the new ELLERY QUEEN'S MYSTERY MAGAZINE. TM. (It has some content of feminist interest, I suggest.) Jay Williams, the author of children's fantasies, also contributed to THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY & SF, at least to the May 1961 issue (and was seen as enough a draw to make the cover, below Stephen Barr and Carol Emshwiller, but above R. Bretnor and Isaac Asimov; illo by Ed Emshwiller for Rick Rubin's "Final Muster"). FANTASTIC for the same month carried "Scylla's Daughter" by Fritz Leiber, a novella later expanded to become THE SWORDS OF LANKHMAR. "Scylla's Daughter" shares cover citation (and space with Vernon Kramer's illustration for the Leiber) with the first of the Sam Moskowitz-selected "Masterpieces of Fantasy," Robert Howard's "The Garden of Fear." The Howard, a MARVEL TALES reprint from 1934, is not helped by its juxtaposition with the Leiber, particularly as one comes across such lines as "His features were straight and regular, with no suggestion of the negroid about him." It's interesting to me that of the five stories in the FANTASTIC, three involve time travel in some form (if we count the past-life regression of the Howard); three of the ten (eleven with the Feghoot pun vignette) stories in the F&SF likewise (if we count the suspended animation of the Rubin story). Aside from the Leiber and to a much lesser extent the Howard, the FANTASTIC stories are neglible works of imagination: a minor sentient-robot story by David Bunch ("The Problem Was Lubrication"), a minor notional problem-story by Arthur Porges ("The Arrogant Vampire"), and a Egyptian time-travel fantasy as confused as THE BIG SLEEP(no ornament to Jack Sharkey's career, despite an excellent title for such at the time: "Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been?"). Also, there's a letter from one Lenny Kaye; I seem to remember reading the Patti Smith Group guitarist and NUGGETS anthologist was at least a fringe fan; the time and North (New) Jersey address seem right. The F&SF features a good Carol Emshwiller in "Adapted," combining typical sf (literal) alienation with parental aspirations-for-offspring drama. Second-generation fans are Slans, too ("are what?"). Avram Davidson and Sidney Klein's "The Teeth of Despair" is very marginally related to the Morris Goldpepper stories, but mostly is a fine small evocation of the late '50s quiz shows more pointed than that of the film QUIZ SHOW. R. Bretnor's "All the Tea in China" is a pleasant, predictable fantasy; the Feghoot (by Bretnor as "Grendel Briarton") shows early signs of the naked misogyny of his last Papa Schimmelhorn stories. The Jay Williams is a decent postapocalyptic outpost-planet story involving children, a bit more savage than Bradbury usually allowed himself to be. C. D. Heriot's "Poltergeist" is a reprint from WINTER'S TALES (how stereotypically apt is it that FANTASTIC's comes from MARVEL TALES and F&SF's from WINTER'S TALES?), shares with the Howard a tendency toward twelve words where five will do, and its tale of a troubled girl and her powers also suffers in juxtaposition, with the Williams and to a lesser extent the Emshwiller. The Stephen Barr, "Mr. Medley's Time Pill," isn't nearly as shambolic a time-travel fantasy as the Sharkey, and has more genuine wit to it, but also has the ugly aftertaste of entirely too many henpecked-husband/turning-worm stories from contemporaneous HITCHCOCK'S issues and television episodes. Then two winners: G. C. Edmondson's "The Country Boy," part of a series (I need to seek out) involving a kind of time patrol that has as much flavor of THE TESTAMENT OF ORPHEUS and Alfred Bester at his jazziest as of Fritz Leiber's Changewar or Poul Anderson's similar stories; and Mildred Posselt's brief juvenilia (then 11, one hopes she's now 51), "The Flower." A slightly scattered Asimov essay and a Bester review column in which he condescends lightly to Zenna Henderson and Poul Anderson, while praising an early Ben Bova nonfiction, follow, then Henry Slesar's deft if unsurprising fantasy "The Self-Improvement of Salvadore Ross." Rick Rubin's story presages Orson Scott Card's foolish "Hot Sleep" stories of a decade and a half later, and attempts to spackle over the big problem with the premise (why would anyone voluntarily suffer the temporal dislocation of intermittent suspended animation?), then attempts to tackle utopian pacifism with some modest success. Robert Mills was editing F&SF (40c this issue), Cele Goldsmith FANTASTIC (35c). The Jesse Jones Box Corporation seemed to feel greater persuasion was necessary for the latter's storage-box sales: "Your copies of FANTASTIC are valuable!" F&SF's are "Handsome, Sturdy" in their turn. That these issues were put to bed at about this time four decades ago seems strange somehow; sobering that these were among the leanest times for fantasy magazines, with only these two openly offering fantasy on US newsstands and only SCIENCE FANTASY doing so in the UK; did the ARKHAM SAMPLER, if still active in '61, get any more newsstand presence than J. P. Brennan's MACABRE did? (Of course, STORY to ANALOG to AHMM were carrying some fantasy, but not so obviously.) FANTASTIC UNIVERSE and (both magazines titled) SHOCK gone, MAGAZINE OF HORROR and GAMMA not yet started their shadow-lives... -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:48:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez In-Reply-To: Todd Mason 's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:29:31 -0600 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Todd, you are as us usual on target. I am aware that P. Califia is, as you so skilfully put it, realligning his/her gender. But I still want to know your opinion on "Macho Sluts",Doc and Fluff" ( which is banned in Canada, and "Sensuous Magic". among pat's many other works on vampirism and lesbianism. Please give me your opinion. I don't often speak here but I do alot of listenimg, so come on guys, tell me what you think. Also, are there any feminist MALE sci-fi writers? Does Charles DeLint qualify?? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:16:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez In-Reply-To: John Vazquez 's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:48:20 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Will someone please respond to my questions- what do intelligent people think of Pat Califia ( Todd, please relax; I know she's changing her gender/ or has already) Especially her books titled "Macho Sluts", Doc And Fluff"(which is banned in Canada, to her credit), and "Sensuous Magic"?? Please don't jut tell me she's changing her gender; That's irrelevant. What I would like to hear is an intellligent opinion on her diverse and unique writings. Also, dan anyone tell me of a single MALE sci-fi wtiter that qualifies as feminist??? Does Charles DeLint Qualify??? John(Bacchus) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:22:47 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Tan, Thorne, etc.: Hart:horror and feminist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This brings up a very interesting perspective, traditional horror depicts your 'stereotypical' portrayal of brutality towards women in a general sense that is, if you can call slashing and maiming general, but I digress, yet we do have an author who created a fully actuated feminist type persona within the confines of a stereotypical horror setting, Anita Blake in the Laurell K. Hamilton series. Her books are found in the Science Fiction section of my local bookstores (principally being Waldenbooks and B. Dalton), and not in the horror section with the five shelf section of King and Koontz. Course even though this series has been pretty much depicted as mind candy because it is mostly escapism, there have been off and on comments about the Blake character as to being not feminine enough through her violent actions towards zombies, witches and vampires etc. Actually I feel a similarity in temperment with this character and that of Nikita in the USA series Le Femme Nikita, but then maybe its just me heh. Jo Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Mason" To: Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Tan, Thorne, etc.: Hart > Grr, Me. Grr. (Unless growling at a dismissal of the potential of horror > fiction to be feminist is in itself patriarchal oppression, then simply: > "Shame!") TM > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:24:21 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez In-Reply-To: <19282-3A67B904-1311@storefull-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/18/01 8:48 PM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > Todd, you are as us usual on target. I am aware that P. Califia is, as > you so skilfully put it, realligning his/her gender. But I still want > to know your opinion on "Macho Sluts",Doc and Fluff" ( which is banned > in Canada, and "Sensuous Magic". among pat's many other works on > vampirism and lesbianism. Please give me your opinion. I don't often > speak here but I do alot of listenimg, so come on guys, tell me what > you think. Also, are there any feminist MALE sci-fi writers? Steve Leigh surely is. There are also male writers who imo aren't addressing feminist themes per se in their works, but do an excellent job with strong, believable female characters. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:35:11 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez:Male FSF authors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has been talk that Frank Herbert's Dune contained elements of women's issues and reflected the changing the attitudes of people from the 1960s and 1970s, unfortunately I lost some great posts about this topic when I had a computer crash right after New Years, but the consensus was he should be considered for being seen as feminist to a degree because of the way he depicted the Bene Gesseret, to be this source of knowledge that was part of the foundation the leaders of planets had with their power structure. Their social order in a way could be construed as Utopian in that they did have in place a framework of traditions that perpetuated the species in their society, not to mention their preserving the knowledge from one Bene Gesseret reverend to another is very much the way in our own society women have passed their knowledge to successfully maintain the cultural foundation of women as well. Jo Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vazquez" opinion on her > diverse and unique writings. Also, dan anyone tell me of a single > MALE sci-fi wtiter that qualifies as feminist??? Does Charles DeLint > Qualify??? John(Bacchus) > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:15:31 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: horror and feminist: Rangel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There's plenty to "unpack" here, Jo Ann. What makes slashing and maiming of women "traditional" horror? Most of the horror traditions I'm familiar with have been rather egalitarian when mayhem came into play...usually it's the degenerate "slasher films" and their fringe predecessors that have seemed to be interested in the sadopornish carving of women particularly. I like Hamilton's Blake stories, BUFFY, and other "role-bent" stuff, although they have not been the first; it's good to see such things now gaining unquestioned mainstream acceptance. "Our" Joanna Russ has written horror fiction throughout her career; ditto Kate Wilhelm...not writers interested in dicing fragile flowers. Again, I recommend (the Fem FSFFU Website-cited) WHAT DID MISS DARRINGTON SEE? as a fine, convenient anthology of feminist horror fiction, ranging from as recent as its publication a decade ago and back not a few years. TM -----Original Message----- From: Jo Ann Rangel [mailto:silkstarlight@SPRINTMAIL.COM] This brings up a very interesting perspective, traditional horror depicts your 'stereotypical' portrayal of brutality towards women in a general sense that is, if you can call slashing and maiming general, but I digress, yet we do have an author who created a fully actuated feminist type persona within the confines of a stereotypical horror setting, Anita Blake in the Laurell K. Hamilton series. Jo Ann -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 00:28:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Tan, Thorne, etc.: Hart In-Reply-To: Todd Mason 's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:31:51 -0600 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Todd, spare me the Kennedyesk wit, I appreciate and respect your short dismissal of Tan although, didn't you just tell me you never read her? Maybe I'm mistaken..... However ,since you are such a loud and "dominant male voice" I will take you to task... You have not answered my questions about Califia. I've listed the 3 books that I am asking about 3 times. Each time you seem to avoid the question. First you said that Pat (Patrick) was changing her gender. Well that is not the question at hand and it's irrelevant to the quality of Califia'a talent which was the question!! I appreciate the fact that you are on top of things and are aware of Pat Califia's personal lifestyle, but I am not interested in you telling me that she is "transgendering". Do you think you can just give me an intelligent opinion on her work. Since I've asked this same question 3 times before I am not in the mood to re-write the 3 books I'm asking about. Everyone on this page should have it 3 times over again-- i've lost patience and i will wait for some reciprocal intelligent feedback=-- no more BS about personal lifestyles -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 00:33:40 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: horror and feminist: Rangel In-Reply-To: Todd Mason 's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:15:31 -0600 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Well Todd, that's very keen of you. You obviously know your stuff. But I'm still waiting for someone to address my specific questions. I don't think they're hard enough for everyone to avoid. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:27:11 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lyle Burness Organization: Medical Society Bookshop Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I'm more familiar with Califa's theoretical work, which I personally find *somewhat* problematic, but stimulating nonetheless. I guess my issues with her/his work tends to revolve around the representations of SM, some of which seem patriarchal or at least a bit dubious. I realise that Califa responds to these criticisms quite astutely, nonetheless they remain tensions in her work. Samuel Delaney (Male, Afro-American and gay, as far as I am aware) writes SF and F which is informed by and engages with feminism. Lyle ________________________________________________ John Vazquez wrote: > Will someone please respond to my questions- what do intelligent people > think of Pat Califia ( Todd, please relax; I know she's changing her > gender/ or has already) Especially her books titled "Macho Sluts", Doc > And Fluff"(which is banned in Canada, to her credit), and "Sensuous > Magic"?? Please don't jut tell me she's changing her gender; That's > irrelevant. What I would like to hear is an intellligent opinion on her > diverse and unique writings. Also, dan anyone tell me of a single > MALE sci-fi wtiter that qualifies as feminist??? Does Charles DeLint > Qualify??? John(Bacchus) > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:48:50 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: No more caffeine for John tonight. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" John, you probably should calm down. You're lucky listmembers are active at this hour, and several have responded already...I wrote that I have read several short stories by Tan, somewhere between five and ten. I haven't read MACHO SLUTS, at least not all of it--it's a collection, isn't it? I may have read, in the half-dozen or so Califia stories I have read, some of what's collected there. Haven't read the other Califia books. Which is, actually, what I wrote earlier, made a bit more explicit--and, I repeat, the Califia fiction I've read verges on camp. She seems to be enjoying joking about the relatively brutal events in most of her stories, and since she keeps winking at the reader, the reader is (I think) expected to take the events described as game activities...more than one would with most writers. This male voice falls silent tonight, folks. Have fun. -----Original Message----- From: John Vazquez [mailto:BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET] Todd, spare me the Kennedyesk wit, I appreciate and respect your short dismissal of Tan although, didn't you just tell me you never read her? Maybe I'm mistaken..... However ,since you are such a loud and "dominant male voice" I will take you to task... You have not answered my questions about Califia. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 01:27:04 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez In-Reply-To: Lyle Burness 's message of Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:27:11 +1100 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Lyle, thamks for your very informed feedback on Pat Califia. What you consider tension in her writing as relates to lesbian S/M I find fascinating. Maybe that's why Canada has banned her books. I admi tthat I have a bias toward S/M, ut I do know a genuis when I see one. Her intro. to her bokk titled "Doc And Fluff" should be required reading for anyone tahat is willing to accept the reality of our societ for what it is. She says it like I've never heard any man or woman ever speak before. Lyle, I ask this respectfully... But is it possible that the reason you find Pat Califia "troublesome" is because she may be too strong?? Just think about that before answering . Pat Califia has done alot for me. Her books and her lectures all over the world ( I've attended some of her lectures in California and New York) have been very comforting to me when I have felt rejected by society for my sexual orientation. I also have very serious problems with our present oligarchal, plutachracy form of Gov. Where an Ashcroft is appointed as AG. Pat Califia is is violent, Yes. But her passion is instigated. Us men are mostly out of tune with this. But when Pat Califia speaks, Canada bans her books, and smart guys like you say she "troubles you" Yes, she talks about S/M very proudly. I thank her. I no longer have to be in the closet I along with all of her fans consider her a brave pioneer. Lyionel, I in all sincerity could not stand up to society and stand up for my friends the way she does. As for Pat's having an operation to switch gender, I respect that and would never bring that up gratuoiusly if asked about her work. I have known and worked with gays, lesbians, transgeders, transsexuals, and heterosexuals. I only look for what is in their heart. I am an S/M stlye Pat Califia type. Most of society would consider me deviant. Yet I'm just a regular tax paying sales man that reads alot of feminist literature, practices Tai Chi, likes S/M, and practice old time goddess worship. Pat Califia, instead of like you say is "troublesome" to you is liberating to me. Are there any women out there that will back me up, c'mon I could ise a little support after hearing men critisize my favorite female author. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:33:26 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: horror and feminist: Rangel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was speaking traditional in the sense of what sorts of things are usually to be seen in the genre, some folks only see the slashing and otherwise destruction of the human being in this genre as an element of the genre, while others look deeply into it to study issues that may simply make them think about how it relates to them instead of reading for pure escape. I know it isn't all about slashing, the egalitarian part of it most people see are that whoever the killer/slasher/serial homicidal maniac is, they kill equally both sexes. Its been a long time since I read a horror story that shocked me, am trying to think back the last time something shocked me in a book or film, in Rob Roy, the last scene when the king's fighter gets literally sliced vertically in half, that was sudden, violent and quite shocking. I have not read Hannibal, but was told by a friend who does not get grossed out easily that it really shook him up while he read it. But this thread has me interested in checking out these authors you have been discussing. I only tap into one corner of the horror genre as it is, vampires. But my general statement about what horror is to some feminists is based on my past readings of articles and talking to women at conferences who discuss violence and connect it eventually in conversation to the media and somewhat to the Horror genre and what that term encompasses but that is opening an entire perverbial humongous can of worms I care not to get into, grin. Jo Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Mason" To: Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 9:15 PM Subject: [*FSFFU*] horror and feminist: Rangel > There's plenty to "unpack" here, Jo Ann. What makes slashing and maiming of > women "traditional" horror? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:44:11 +1100 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Lyle Burness Organization: Medical Society Bookshop Subject: ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Normally I wouldn't FFWD items to a listserv, but I think this may be of interest to subscribers... 2. STOP JOHN ASHCROFT - www.ROEvBUSH.com Now that Dr. Laura is toast, it's time to focus on our next challenge: Attorney General designate John Ashcroft. For those concerned about gay rights, the rights of women, African-Americans, and other minorities, Mr. Ashcroft's nomination is bad news. John Ashcroft is an angel of the religious right. Pat Robertson gave Ashcroft $10,000 for the former Senator's failed presidential bid, his biggest backers for the Attorney General's job are the notoriously anti-gay American Family Association, the Christian Coalition, Pat Robertson and many more. Just to give you a flavor of what Ashcroft thinks about gays and lesbians, do you remember back in 1998 when ex-football star Reggie White went after gays, Latinos, Asians, Native Americans and just about every other minority in that notorious speech before the Wisconsin Legislature? Well, in response to that speech, John Ashcroft sent Reggie a note saying, "You are a credit to sports at a time when many 'stars' set the wrong example." In an effort to stop Mr. Ashcroft from becoming the natoin's chief enforcer of its civil rights laws, I've helped Planned Parenthood launch a new Web site - http://www.ROEvBUSH.com - that hopes to galvanize millions of Americans to contact their Senators and say "no" to John Ashcroft. The site focuses on reproductive choice AND a host of other issues, like gay rights, overall civil rights, and more. Please take a minute to visit the Web site - those of you StopDrLaura.com fans will recognize a few touches - and be sure to tell your friends about the site as well. We all learned with Dr. Laura that our individual voices do count when we all gather together to defend our rights and our humanity. Let's not stop now. Please visit ROEvBUSH.com and tell Mr. Ashcroft hat his opposition to gay-Ambassador James Hormel, ENDA, hate crime legislation and so much more will not be forgotten. And remember: They told us we could never stop Dr. Laura, we chose not to believe them, and look where it got us. We can Stop John Ashcroft, if we all keep working together. Until next week, thanks - JOHN -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:01:12 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: No more caffeine for John tonight. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > John, you probably should calm down. I agree; I've been watching this thread in increasing mystification at your reactions, John..it's only been 5 hours since you first asked your question. Give it a couple days; this normally isn't a very high-traffic list.. A mailing list is NOT a real-time chat, and continuing to demand a response is not likely to help in any case. I would venture to guess that a LOT of the people on this list have never read anything by the people you're asking about, and the ones that have either haven't read the exact things you're asking about, or haven't read them recently enough to have a considered opinion at their fingertips. That's the reality. It's obvious from the responses you've gotten already that nobody else that's on the list tonight is anywhere near as passionate about these particular authors as you are; I'm sorry if that's disapointing to you, but that's the way it goes sometimes. For the record, I'd never even HEARD of any of your authors until you asked about them, and in response to your question about male feminist authors, I was going to suggest Delaney, but someone else beat me to it. -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 02:29:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: No more caffeine for John tonight. In-Reply-To: Sandy Candioglos 's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:01:12 -0800 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Thanks Sandy; You're very right about my need to be patient. Thanks. As for Tom Delaney, yeah I have read him before, but in light of your point about him, I am able to see him in a different way. In fact. if I'm correct he wrote some of his best stuff as young as 18 yrs of age. You know when I first read him, like "Triton"-1976, I loved it. Only years later did I realize the true allure or his work which, as it turned out in my opinion, are his very strong and respectful female characters. So Thanks for bringing me back down to mother earth!! John -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:23:24 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez:Male FSF authors In-Reply-To: Jo Ann Rangel 's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 20:35:11 -0800 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) JoAnn; thank you so much for for letter. I will look into this author, and no, it is not old to me. I have never heard of it before. Thank you so much. By the way, are you from the land down under??? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 01:13:21 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez:Male FSF authors;electric crisis etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, am a native of California, in the heartland of the latest electricity crisis persay, grin. This hasn't been too bad so far I patiently waited all day using very little electricity until late tonight to turn on the PC. To give an idea of what I have been dealing with here, my November electric bill was 35 bucks; December's bill jumped to 97 bucks, and January's bill was 121 bucks. And our usage has been relatively close to the same amount each month. There was a fellow who called into a radio talk show this week who stated he lived in a small trailer park and he powers his place using two Cadillac car batteries and two solar panels on the roof. It reminded me a little of that 70s movie where John Ritter lived in a world that ran out of fuel for cars, anyway I better get some work done here, grin. Jo Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vazquez" To: Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Califia-Rice: Vasquez:Male FSF authors > JoAnn; thank you so much for for letter. I will look into this author, > and no, it is not old to me. I have never heard of it before. Thank you > so much. By the way, are you from the land down under??? > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 05:09:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sent letters, signed petition, joined-----thanks! Amy > Normally I wouldn't FFWD items to a listserv, but I think this may > be of interest to subscribers... > > > > 2. STOP JOHN ASHCROFT - www.ROEvBUSH.com > Now that Dr. Laura is toast, it's time to focus on our next > challenge: Attorney General designate John Ashcroft. For > those concerned about gay rights, the rights of women, > African-Americans, and other minorities, Mr. Ashcroft's > nomination is bad news. > > John Ashcroft is an angel of the religious right. Pat > Robertson gave Ashcroft $10,000 for the former Senator's > failed presidential bid, his biggest backers for the Attorney > General's job are the notoriously anti-gay American Family Association, > the Christian Coalition, Pat Robertson and many more. > > Just to give you a flavor of what Ashcroft thinks about gays > and lesbians, do you remember back in 1998 when ex-football > star Reggie White went after gays, Latinos, Asians, Native > Americans and just about every other minority in that > notorious speech before the Wisconsin Legislature? Well, in > response to that speech, John Ashcroft sent Reggie a note > saying, "You are a credit to sports at a time when many > 'stars' set the wrong example." > > In an effort to stop Mr. Ashcroft from becoming the natoin's > chief enforcer of its civil rights laws, I've helped Planned > Parenthood launch a new Web site - http://www.ROEvBUSH.com - > that hopes to galvanize millions of Americans to contact > their Senators and say "no" to John Ashcroft. The site focuses > on reproductive choice AND a host of other issues, like gay > rights, overall civil rights, and more. > > Please take a minute to visit the Web site - those of you > StopDrLaura.com fans will recognize a few touches - and be > sure to tell your friends about the site as well. > > We all learned with Dr. Laura that our individual voices do > count when we all gather together to defend our rights and > our humanity. Let's not stop now. Please visit ROEvBUSH.com and > tell Mr. Ashcroft hat his opposition to gay-Ambassador James > Hormel, ENDA, hate crime legislation and so much more will > not be forgotten. > > And remember: They told us we could never stop Dr. Laura, we chose not > to believe them, and look where it got us. We can Stop John Ashcroft, > if we all keep working together. > > Until next week, thanks - JOHN > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:16:30 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Snead Subject: Dune (was Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez:Male FSF authors) In-Reply-To: <200101190611.AAA60008@listserv.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > There has been talk that Frank Herbert's Dune contained elements of > women's issues and reflected the changing the attitudes of people from > the 1960s and 1970s, unfortunately I lost some great posts about this > topic when I had a computer crash right after New Years, but the > consensus was he should be considered for being seen as feminist to a > degree because of the way he depicted the Bene Gesseret, to be this > source of knowledge that was part of the foundation the leaders of > planets had with their power structure. Their social order in a way > could be construed as Utopian in that they did have in place a > framework of traditions that perpetuated the species in their society, > not to mention their preserving the knowledge from one Bene Gesseret > reverend to another is very much the way in our own society women have > passed their knowledge to successfully maintain the cultural > foundation of women as well. My reading of Dune was that it was an astoundingly anti-feminist novel. The all-female Bene Gesseret have this vast, ancient breeding program which has as its whole point producing an ultra-powerful man who will be greater than any of them. They are merely the hands and wombs that produce the singular great man. They're Paul's great uber-mon, yuck. The book was interesting in other ways, but I find it no better than most other middle-aged male authored SF of that era wrt women. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:56:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: No more caffeine for John tonight. In-Reply-To: Todd Mason 's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 23:48:50 -0600 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Todd; I apologize. John -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:05:47 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez:Male FSF authors;electric crisis etc In-Reply-To: <001601c081f8$12cd70a0$0c8cb3d1@w95s> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > each month. There was a fellow who called into a radio talk show this week > who stated he lived in a small trailer park and he powers his place using > two Cadillac car batteries and two solar panels on the roof. It reminded me We need to hire him to set up our own places like that! Out here, it's natural gas that's causing the problems.> Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:22:03 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: horror, tradition, and feminist points: Rangel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I suspect that feminist scholars are drawn to slasher films and similar items because they are such naked examples of misogyny, and misanthropy generally, but usually particularly interested in "punishing" sexually-active young women, et alles. To make statements about horror as a whole from them, however, is to judge sf by LOST IN SPACE, or perhaps more to the point by the more obnoxious contents of HEAVY METAL comics magazine--debased, mostly looking for an "exotic" background for repressed-sexuality and -rage release. While sexuality is a part of horror fiction as a whole (horror fiction is about people, after all), hacking away at women for being "unobtainable" is not the primary theme of whole bunches of it. What's usually seen in the slasher-film genre is not what's seen in the horror field as a whole. I will again endorse as well Lisa Tuttle, Joyce Carol Oates, Kathe Koja, Rachel Pollack, hell--Jane Yolen, among many others for horror and near-horror written with a very feminist/feminism-informed sensibility. And do check out the Ellen Datlow & Terri Windling YEAR'S BEST FANTASY AND HORROR annual, and if you're feeling brave, try also Stephen Jones's annual BEST NEW HORROR. Meanwhile, it's interesting to me how much of the various erotica annual anthologies have horror content, not least Susie Bright's BEST AMERICAN EROTICA. TM -----Original Message----- From: Jo Ann Rangel [mailto:silkstarlight@SPRINTMAIL.COM] I was speaking traditional in the sense of what sorts of things are usually to be seen in the genre, some folks only see the slashing and otherwise destruction of the human being in this genre as an element of the genre, while others look deeply into it to study issues that may simply make them think about how it relates to them instead of reading for pure escape. I know it isn't all about slashing, the egalitarian part of it most people see are that whoever the killer/slasher/serial homicidal maniac is, they kill equally both sexes. But this thread has me interested in checking out these authors you have been discussing. I only tap into one corner of the horror genre as it is, vampires. But my general statement about what horror is to some feminists is based on my past readings of articles and talking to women at conferences who discuss violence and connect it eventually in conversation to the media and somewhat to the Horror genre and what that term encompasses but that is opening an entire proverbial humongous can of worms I care not to get into, grin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Mason" > There's plenty to "unpack" here, Jo Ann. What makes slashing and maiming of > women "traditional" horror? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:49:11 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: horror, tradition, and feminist points: Rangel In-Reply-To: Todd Mason 's message of Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:22:03 -0600 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I feel compelled to take issue with the prevalent view that lovers of slash and gore are basically misogynist. As a man my predilection toward this genre is for women that perpetrate the crimes upon men. Lucy Taylor is a perfect example of a female slash/ gore writer that can and does have fun slashing and debasing men. This is also germaine to classical pornography which has been wrongly stigmatized by a faction of the feminist movement. Pornography in and of itself has always been a basic and legitimate and , in my opinion, a beautiful form of human expression. This particular faction of feminism also seems to focus only on the pornography depicting women in bondage and submissive sates. As an s/m practitioner and submissive, I have always founds loads and loads of fiction and art in all forms of women tying up men and dominating men. How come this faction of feminists only seem to find pictures of women in bondage? I see everywhere more pictures of men in bondage and serving Mistresses than anything else. o I must disagree that slash and blood literature is misogynist. Thank You -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:21:37 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gwen Veazey Subject: s/m MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0064_01C0821A.C040B2C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C0821A.C040B2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John V. - Thank you for sharing personal information. Hope you will = find lots of support, if not here, then somewhere. I met Cecelia Tan at = WisCon in 99, and she was a lovely person. I wanted to support her, so I = bought one of her books, but have been afraid to read it. It's tucked = upstairs somewhere. As a 50 yr. old woman who grew up Southern Baptist, = I think it's probably not for me. Your conversation with Todd et. al. = was fascinating and a comforting counterpoint to the victory dance going = on in Washington. Best, - Gwen ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C0821A.C040B2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John V. - Thank you for sharing personal = information. =20 Hope you will find lots of support, if not here, then somewhere.  I = met=20 Cecelia Tan at WisCon in 99, and she was a lovely person. I wanted = to=20 support her, so I bought one of her books, but have been afraid to read=20 it.  It's tucked upstairs somewhere.  As a 50 yr. old woman = who grew=20 up Southern Baptist, I think it's probably not for me. Your = conversation=20 with Todd et. al. was fascinating and a comforting counterpoint to the = victory=20 dance going on in Washington.
 
Best,
 - Gwen
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C0821A.C040B2C0-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:06:02 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Slashers and misogyny: Vasquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I don't think one has to be misogynist to like slasher films, but the films themselves (here I think of the FRIDAY THE 13th items I've seen, primarily) seem to be highly misanthropic and particularly misogynistic. The question becomes "what uses are we putting things to?" Pat Califia-Rice's characters are raped, men as often as women in what I read, but it's not about actual rape, it's about sexual games. So, M. Christian and Lucy Taylor (whom I don't think I've read yet, though have heard nothing but good about her ...OF UNKNOWN CITIES novel--don't remember the full title) and some others who treat D/S, S/M, and/or B/D with respect, as opposed to just a cheap thrill (Edward Lee comes to mind in this regard), may well produce nonmisanthropic but violent fiction, as far as I'm concerned. Whereas John "Norman" Lange and Milo Manara, to take two popular examples at random, seem to genuinely dislike women (and largely aren't too crazy about men). And the feminists who only find the women bound--well those pictures are a bit more common than those of men bound (in what I've seen without seeking out too much of either, so I have no percentages at hand), and they enrage and/or scare the scholars in question more, for fairly obvious reasons.. TM -----Original Message----- From: John Vazquez [mailto:BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET] I feel compelled to take issue with the prevalent view that lovers of slash and gore are basically misogynist. As a man my predilection toward this genre is for women that perpetrate the crimes upon men. Lucy Taylor is a perfect example of a female slash/ gore writer that can and does have fun slashing and debasing men. This is also germaine to classical pornography which has been wrongly stigmatized by a faction of the feminist movement. Pornography in and of itself has always been a basic and legitimate and , in my opinion, a beautiful form of human expression. This particular faction of feminism also seems to focus only on the pornography depicting women in bondage and submissive sates. As an s/m practitioner and submissive, I have always founds loads and loads of fiction and art in all forms of women tying up men and dominating men. How come this faction of feminists only seem to find pictures of women in bondage? I see everywhere more pictures of men in bondage and serving Mistresses than anything else. o I must disagree that slash and blood literature is misogynist. Thank You -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:10:44 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: s/m and Cecelia Tan: Veazey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Not all the Tan I've read is particularly "tough," Gwen! Some's quite lyrical, not extreme in any way (unless any sexual description is disturbing). Just none that I've read so far has explored the full range of her potential as a writer, I suspect. (As for the In-Augh, I'm having more fun right now listening to TALK OF THE NATION SCIENCE FRIDAY, discussing possible observation of late of the evidence of a black hole's event horizon...now there's a scary thrill!) Todd -----Original Message----- From: Gwen Veazey [mailto:gveazey@VISTATECH.NET] I met Cecelia Tan at WisCon in 99, and she was a lovely person. I wanted to support her, so I bought one of her books, but have been afraid to read it. It's tucked upstairs somewhere. As a 50 yr. old woman who grew up Southern Baptist, I think it's probably not for me. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:47:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: ashcroft I rad feministsf for feminist science fiction and fantasy talk, and not left-wing bigotry against a fine man like John Ashcroft. Bigots are opposed to Ashcroft because of his religious beliefs, claiming that a Christian cannot be expected to enforce the laws of the land. Of course, no one on the left made similar comments about Joe Lieberman. The left of this country is not only bigoted but hypocritical. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:07:37 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Ashcroft: Smith...and Sonia Johnson and SHADOW OF T HE VAMPIRE...of course! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" For what it's worth, Cindy, most people are made wary by what they see as a guy carrying grudges, notably against Justice White, and wonder at his willingness to not let his far-right beliefs influence his job in similar instances. And leftists like myself have done nothing but criticize the smarmy Sen. Lieberman and his running mate, not least for their various pietistic hypocrisies. Of course, I haven't been genuinely enthusiastic about a party nomineee for President since the Citizen's Party (and it's Pennsylvanian affiliate, the Consumer Party) nominated Sonia Johnson for the Presidency in 1984. Almost a pity she'd probably never have any interest in running wtih the Greens...her later books showed a development of thought that was not congruent with political-office campaigning, and more power to her... And vampire fans may want to catch the NPR program FRESH AIR today, on www.whyy.org streaming at 3pm and 7pm ET for those with no local NPR affiliate, wherein they discuss SHADOW OF THE VAMPIRE, the new fantasy about making NOSFERATU... TM -----Original Message----- From: Cindy Smith [mailto:cms@DRAGON.COM] Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 2:47 PM To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] ashcroft I rad feministsf for feminist science fiction and fantasy talk, and not left-wing bigotry against a fine man like John Ashcroft. Bigots are opposed to Ashcroft because of his religious beliefs, claiming that a Christian cannot be expected to enforce the laws of the land. Of course, no one on the left made similar comments about Joe Lieberman. The left of this country is not only bigoted but hypocritical. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:25:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: eva Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: <009F65AF.2D349FE0.7@dragon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Cindy Smith wrote: > Bigots are opposed to Ashcroft because of his religious beliefs, > claiming that a Christian cannot be expected to enforce the laws > of the land. Of course, no one on the left made similar comments > about Joe Lieberman. The left of this country is not only bigoted > but hypocritical. although it wasn't exactly a popular rallying cry, i know plenty of leftists who made similar comments about lieberman. for some, lieberman was the straw that drove them away from the democratic party ticket entirely. -> eva -- http://mrow.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:40:30 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: <009F65AF.2D349FE0.7@dragon.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/19/01 12:47 PM, Cindy Smith at cms@DRAGON.COM wrote: > I rad feministsf for feminist science fiction and fantasy talk, > and not left-wing bigotry against a fine man like John Ashcroft. > Bigots are opposed to Ashcroft because of his religious beliefs, > claiming that a Christian cannot be expected to enforce the laws > of the land. Of course, no one on the left made similar comments > about Joe Lieberman. The left of this country is not only bigoted > but hypocritical. Cindy, John Ashcroft has been vocal and consistent in his opposition to women having control over their own reproduction, to the right of lesbians and gays to choose partners of their own sex, and to the separation of church and state. He has publicly attacked feminism as part of a global communist conspiracy (http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/Global_Governance/Ashcroft.htm), and has (like Gale Norton) romanticized the South's ugly record of suppressing the rights of African Americans and other minorities. As a private citizen he is certainly entitled to his own beliefs. I have many good friends who are devout Christians--many of whom, by the way, I believe could separate their politics from their religious beliefs, allowing the kind of ethnic and religious diversity that this country is made of to prosper while supporting the laws of the land. I do not have the same confidence in Ashcroft. He has come out and said that he places his religious convictions above the law. My brother-in-law, who was a police officer for years, told me once that as a police officer he was duty-bound to enforce the law, even laws he didn't agree with. Those who have repeatedly demonstrated that they consider other principles a higher priority than the law -- as Ashcroft has -- do not belong in law enforcement, never mind at its pinnacle. Those of us who support equal protection for minorities, women, and gays, and who support a woman's right to control her own reproduction, have been given no good reason to believe that Ashcroft will enforce these laws that he finds so abhorrent -- and we've been given plenty of good reasons not to. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:37:50 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Slashers and misogyny: Vasquez: s/m MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a side note there are shows over in the San Francisco area which tourists can visit to get an idea of both male/female and female/male domination, syndicated radio host Dr. Dean Edell took a tour of one particular club as a sort of tour guide for another radio show, describing what was ocurring around him and so forth. I have met people who live the life of s/m, it is a type of life I find where the participants know what they are getting into from the getgo, and the group I came across in my local area valued highly collecting anything in the GOR series, which if you do look at this mail lists website, is listed under Anti-Feminist. There was one thing I took away from my experience that was valuable to me, in this instance I dated a master who explained to me a lot about how the life works, he gave me advice about how to be aware of someone whose intentions are not on the up and up, how I myself gave off the perception of being a "target" to someone looking to "own" another woman. Target in the sense of someone who may meet someone whose goal is to dominate someone out of pure brutality, to keep a woman instead of sharing life with a woman and so forth. He told me there are men who are out there who get extreme pleasure from emotionally battering the women they have relationships with, and there are women who for whatever circumstance they are in, stay in it for the little bits of love and nice nice they get, not to mention they feel loved through the brutality. By the time we had this conversation I was saying uh uh seeya pally, but his depiction of what he experienced in that field of living was so facinating, to meet people who truly believe in their heart of hearts that they must be dominated, or somewhat told what to do on a daily basis, the writer part of me tucked my experience away for future reference, am sure it will show up in something I write about later on, grin. Jo Ann -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:58:02 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: horror, tradition, and feminist points: Rangel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You know what I am now curious about is this new Japanese film Battle Royale I think the title is? About the 15 year olds having to kill each other until there is one "winner"? When I first saw a blurb about it in the times and how the entire country is discussing the ratings system with regard to their own teens being able to go see this violent film, made me suddenly think of the question, is all violence horror? The concept of this film reminded me of a short story I have somewhere filed it is a reprint of a story about 12 people who find themselves in a room, and one by one they are made to go through a maze of traps, each one usually killing off one member of the group while a steady voice pipes in informing the participants they had better get moving or they will all perish, thus keeping the motion momentum going, and the very last survivor makes it to the last room, where there is a gun on a chair. And he is told he won the game he may use the gun so he shoots himself in the head and finds himself starting the game over with 11 more people. Okee so sue me I am a sucker for stories that sort of make a point about perceptions, grin. I saved the story as an example of short fiction, the way it pulled you in, and consistently paced itself to not lower your expectations as you read the piece made it worthy to be kept on file for future examples of clean writing. I used to watch with regularity horror films in my teens, until I saw Children Of The Corn, and felt my money was ripped off, then I guess I started avoiding the films altogether, but I have a friend who insists I attend some horror movies with him occasionally, and maybe I hold myself off from enjoying the scare, because not much in the film scared me...last film we saw was Dracula 2000, which the soundtrack I believe will make some nice billboard singles. One film that I allowed the press clippings to keep me away from was American Psycho. Serial killings do interest me in the study of the criminal mind, but something about this film told me stay away, it is simply sensationalism, and sensationalism doesn't hold up a plot or sustain interest in a story for long breaths now does it? Hmm, wonder if that Japanese film is basically sensationalism then? Jo Ann who would like to take this moment to thank the country of Canada for powering my computer today, grin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Mason" To: Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] horror, tradition, and feminist points: Rangel > I suspect that feminist scholars are drawn to slasher films and similar > items because they are such naked examples of misogyny, and misanthropy > generally, but usually particularly interested in "punishing" > sexually-active young women, et alles. To make statements about horror as a > whole from them, however, is to judge sf by LOST IN SPACE, or perhaps more > to the point by the more obnoxious contents of HEAVY METAL comics > magazine--debased, mostly looking for an "exotic" background for > repressed-sexuality and -rage release. > > While sexuality is a part of horror fiction as a whole (horror fiction is > about people, after all), hacking away at women for being "unobtainable" is > not the primary theme of whole bunches of it. What's usually seen in the > slasher-film genre is not what's seen in the horror field as a whole. > > I will again endorse as well Lisa Tuttle, Joyce Carol Oates, Kathe Koja, > Rachel Pollack, hell--Jane Yolen, among many others for horror and > near-horror written with a very feminist/feminism-informed sensibility. And > do check out the Ellen Datlow & Terri Windling YEAR'S BEST FANTASY AND > HORROR annual, and if you're feeling brave, try also Stephen Jones's annual > BEST NEW HORROR. Meanwhile, it's interesting to me how much of the various > erotica annual anthologies have horror content, not least Susie Bright's > BEST AMERICAN EROTICA. > > TM > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jo Ann Rangel [mailto:silkstarlight@SPRINTMAIL.COM] > > I was speaking traditional in the sense of what sorts of things are usually > to be seen in the genre, some folks only see the slashing and otherwise > destruction of the human being in this genre as an element of the genre, > while others look deeply into it to study issues that may simply make them > think about how it relates to them instead of reading for pure escape. I > know it isn't all about slashing, the egalitarian part of it most people see > are that whoever the killer/slasher/serial homicidal maniac is, they kill > equally both sexes. > > But this thread has me interested > in checking out these authors you have been discussing. I only tap into one > corner of the horror genre as it is, vampires. But my general statement > about what horror is to some feminists is based on my past readings of > articles and talking to women at conferences who discuss violence and > connect it eventually in conversation to the media and somewhat to the > Horror genre and what that term encompasses but that is opening an entire > proverbial humongous can of worms I care not to get into, grin. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Todd Mason" > > > There's plenty to "unpack" here, Jo Ann. What makes slashing and maiming > of > > women "traditional" horror? > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:17:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: ashcroft I wrote this a while back, and my opinions have largely remained the same. Conservative Feminism's Fourteen Points: 1. Women and men are equal in the eyes of God but not the same. Genesis 1:27 says that God made human beings, male and female, in the image of God. Galatians 3:28 says: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." 2. Women should receive equal pay for equal work, but not comparable pay for comparable work. By this, I mean that a male engineer should be paid the same as a female engineer, once a company has decided on a pay scale for that particular position. However, a female secretary should not be paid the same as a male clerk on the grounds that the two positions are somehow "comparable." 3. Women should serve in the armed forces but should not be drafted. Women may serve in combat roles if they can demonstrate their fitness for the job by passing un-watered-down training programs. The ability to shoot straight and fly a plane well are more important qualifications than the ability to do 100 pushups. Women have demonstrably shown the ability to serve as combat pilots. 4. Women should be hired on the basis of their qualifications and not by discriminating against men; and vice versa. 5. Traditionally women-only colleges and men-only colleges should exist and have important roles to play; single sex colleges should be prepared to demonstrate the need for single sex education at their institution and justify it in terms of its positive role in society with respect to producing leaders and other valuable members of society. 6. Inclusive language: Writers and speakers should use person and people when speaking to or about both sexes or when in doubt of sex; since English is not a gender based language, use of the masculine to denote both sexes or either sex when in doubt of sex is inaccurate. Corrollary: Inclusive language in the Bible: accurate translations of the Bible are important; thus, because Greek and Hebrew have grammatical gender whereas English does not, translating masculine plurals, for example, as well as some masculine singulars (ex. anthropos), in gender neutral terms is accurate. However, when the male sex is clearly indicated in a grammatically masculine word, it should be translated into English as masculine. EX: hoi anthropoi=human beings; hoi androi=men. 7. Conservative feminists are much more numerous than liberal feminists. 8. Pro-life: Women who have made a choice to have sex have de facto made a choice to have a child. Abortion on demand should be against the law and construed as violating the unborn child's constitutional rights. No one should be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. Aborting a female foetus is the ultimate violation of women's rights; aborting a male foetus is the ultimate violation of men's rights; aborting any foetus is the ultimate violation of human rights. 9. ERA: We should vote for candidates who will select judges who acknowledge that the Fourteenth Amendment is equivalent to the Equal Rights Amendment. Are unisex bathrooms really the issue? Women in the military? We should acknowledge that men and women are equal in the eyes of God and the law but different biologically; thus biological differences should be respected without annulling the concept of equality. 10. Holding the Virgin Mary in high esteem or devotion to the Virgin Mary is _not_ sexist. The Virgin Mary should be held up as a role model for girls and boys. 11. Marriage is a sacramental contract between two consenting adults and God. The nature of the contract should be decided beforehand by the man and woman with God as their witness. 12. Women clergy, including bishops, do not violate the apostolic succession (cf. Romans 16:7). 13. Conservative women like Jeane Kirkpatrick and Margaret Thatcher should be held up as examples for schoolgirls and schoolboys. 14. It's better to be a competent conservative feminist working for and in the Republican Party than any kind of feminist working for the Democratic Party hired to fill a quota. It's better to be hired for any job because one is qualified than to be hired to fill any quota. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:26:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Ashcroft: Smith...and Sonia Johnson and SHADOW OF T HE VAMPIRE...of course! In-Reply-To: Todd Mason 's message of Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:07:37 -0600 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Well I'm compelled to respond in my defense as a leftist christian at being so meanly attacked as pietistically hypocritical We that consider ouselves moderate are simply aghast at this bizarre nomination. Bush promised to govern from the center and then chose Ashcroft who is a fanatical cultist intolerant,bob jones honoree, anti feminist to the extreme, anti woman's right to choose.racist, destroyer of Judge Ronnie White, Anit gun control oreven safety locks and assault weapons, anti- desegregation even when folks which to do so voluntarily among themslves. He tried to sue NOW for boycotting his state because thy practiced anti- woman discrimination. and after appealing endlessy went to the supreme court and was rejected there as wel. He is against a woman's right to choose an abortion even in the case of incest and rape . He tried but fortunately faile to pass a bill that would have made birth control pill illegal and imprisonedany doctor who prescribed it. And woul impriso any nurse you even mentioned any form of contraception to a patient. If he believes that any abortion is Murder than why does he so desparately want the job that wold require him to enforce "murder"?? I studied at Evagel college in Springfeld, Missouriduring the early 70's and Ashcroft's father was the president. I was kicked out of the college because my hair was slightly over my ears. Dancing was a sin, wearing tank top in the summer was a sin. Rock music was a banned sin on and on. No self respecting woman or black or believer in the hate crimes bill could possibly support asscroft with any self- respect. He rejected Hormel' appointment as embassador to Luxembourg only becu. ase he was gay. A feminist asscroft supporter is an oxymoron. asscroft would probably wish to outlaw and censor the wonderful female writers we discuss here. What do you think he would say about Lucy Taylor,Ann Rice, Tamara Thorne, Poppy z brite, Pat Califia, Red Jordan Arobateau, Amarantha Knight....? Asscroft is a right wing bigot from the fringes of the lunatic wing of the republic party and qualifies as neo-confedarate, fascist that is dangerous to women -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:42:30 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: Cindy Smith 's message of Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:17:28 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Conservative feminsm is an oxymoron!!!!!!!!! A self proclamed feminist who staunchly supports asscroft is obviously deluded!! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:52:08 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Ashcroft: Smith...and Sonia Johnson and SHADOW OF T HE VAMPIRE...of course! John Vazquez, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on Ashcroft. As I said in my Conservative Feminism post earlier, being conservative and opposed to abortion doesn't make you evil incarnate. I am conservative and oppose abortion. I think abortion should be illegal because abortion kills the living body of a living soul, abortion stops brainwaves, abortion stops a beating heart, abortion is murder. I a woman gives birth to a child who was conceived as the result of a rape, do you think it's okay to kill that child? If a woman gives birth to a child who's parents were brother and sister, do you think it's okay to kill that child? If you answered "No," then you understand why I am opposed to killing unborn children because of the sins of their parents. I see the unborn and born as human beings. If you accept that an unborn child is a human being, then abortion is wrong; if you accept that an unborn child is not a human being, then abortion is not wrong. The only time abortion is morally acceptable is to save the life of the mother, since the unborn child is causing harm. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:01:08 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know exactly who Ashcroft is (although I'm starting to get a rough idea). Unfortunately I cannot claim the same ignorance of Margaret Thatcher. Having lived for 18 years under her government I would feel happier with point 13 reading, "Conservative women like Margaret Thatcher should be strung up as examples for schoolgirls and schoolboys." (only joking since I'm liberal enough to be opposed to the death penalty in any form, but some people do tempt me) Jane (confused and British) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:15:00 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: Ashcroft: Fletcher MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" John Ashcroft is a former Senator and Missouri Governor who was recently defeated while seeking reelection to the Senate, and a Rightist ideologue. George Bush has nominated him to serve as Attorney General; most observers suspect that despite a hostile reaction from many, he will be approved. -----Original Message----- From: Jane Fletcher [mailto:jane.fletcher@VIRGIN.NET] I don't know exactly who Ashcroft is (although I'm starting to get a rough idea). -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:32:55 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Slashers and misogyny: Vasquez: s/m MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/19/01 4:36:05 PM, silkstarlight@SPRINTMAIL.COM writes: << As a side note there are shows over in the San Francisco area which tourists can visit to get an idea of both male/female and female/male domination, >> This is true in Boston (!!) as well. hmmm, phoebe w -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:41:53 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Fetishes on parade: [What Sister] Wray [Says] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The combined efforts of Annie Sprinkle, Susie Bright, FUTURE SEX, HBO, and others at various levels of commitment and with various motives have encouraged a lot of this kind of thing over the last decade or so... -----Original Message----- From: Phoebe Wray [mailto:Zozie@AOL.COM] In a message dated 1/19/01 4:36:05 PM, silkstarlight@SPRINTMAIL.COM writes: << As a side note there are shows over in the San Francisco area which tourists can visit to get an idea of both male/female and female/male domination, >> This is true in Boston (!!) as well. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:49:03 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Ashcroft: Smith...and Sonia Johnson and SHADOW OF T HE VAMPIRE...of course! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/19/01 6:27:43 PM, BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET writes: << Ashcroft who is a... etc etc >> My problem with Ashcroft is that his views are well-known, and he has passionately persued an anti-abortion etc etc stance. He's allowed. We should stand up for what we believe, and should work to effect change if we think it is needed. I respect his right to believe and act as he has. His admirers tell us he has the integrity of his views. THEN -- how could he totally switch off his deeply-felt convictions? Seems to me if he is a man of honor he would turn down the nomination saying: I cannot accept this because I would, by law, be forced to uphold and defend laws to which I am morally opposed. Thus, because he Wants to be Attorney General, and is willing to set aside his convinctions, he has forfeited his honor. phoebe w -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:51:53 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: horror, tradition, and feminist points MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My comment about some of Chris Curry/Tamara Thorne's horror not being feminist is mostly based on my memories of several female characters in her works either being sexual (e.g.. prostitutes in HAUNTED?) and attacked, or sexual and wicked (nuns in ... title escapes me). But it's been a while, and I could be wrong in my memories. Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:54:23 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: horror and feminist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are certainly feminist authors writing horror, and not all horror, traditional or otherwise, is anti-feminist/female. Todd Mason mentioned some classics. And let's not forget the wonderful Shirley Jackson! And then there's Tepper, who wrote a few horror books that didn't turn out as she wished after the editorial process, and consigned horror writers to hell, in BEAUTY. :) Maryelizabeth -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:53:00 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: Ashcroft: Fletcher MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/19/01 7:16:00 PM, Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM writes: << John Ashcroft is a former Senator and Missouri Governor who was recently defeated while seeking reelection to the Senate, and a Rightist ideologue. >> We Americans really must add: he was defeated by a man who died before the election and still beat him. In other words, the people of Missouri preferred a dead man to Ashcroft. His opponent's wife took her husband's place in the Senate. The 2000 election was a bizarre ride! phoebe w -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 18:56:42 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Todd Mason Subject: Re: horror and feminist: Hart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, then...obviously the editors should've been the damned (worked for Dante, and Niven and Pournelle)... TM (and how'd I manage not to think of Jackson...) -----Original Message----- From: Maryelizabeth Hart [mailto:publicity@MYSTGALAXY.COM] There are certainly feminist authors writing horror, and not all horror, traditional or otherwise, is anti-feminist/female. Todd Mason mentioned some classics. And let's not forget the wonderful Shirley Jackson! And then there's Tepper, who wrote a few horror books that didn't turn out as she wished after the editorial process, and consigned horror writers to hell, in BEAUTY. :) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:02:26 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Ashcroft: Fletcher MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Until I read in the papers about this nomination and being a talk radio junkie, I did not know who Ashcroft was either til very very recently. There is a concensus out there that since Ashcroft allowed himself to be interviewed in a publication that has a foundational view about white pride i.e., the publication whose name flew out of my brain at this very moment takes great pride in the confederacy in keeping that dream alive that it was a dream to keep aflame for the future of whites, and its readership are ultra ultra right wing to where they think Reagan was too liberal when he was president, this is from a discussion on the radio last week. The question that seems to be at issue is, can a person with such strong beliefs as Ashcroft, for example he does oppose any form of abortion, could such a person enforce the laws of our nation? He said in testimony that he can, the question now is, does the American populace believe him or not? So far I have heard one arguement that he can in that being Attorney general is like being the Ultra Cop, your job is to enforce the laws of our nation, not allow your personal belief system to interfere with the duty you have been delegated to perform. Am sure even after the hearings are finished there will be a huge debate over this man now that the spotlight is on him. Jo Ann Jo Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Mason" To: Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Ashcroft: Fletcher > John Ashcroft is a former Senator and Missouri Governor who was recently > defeated while seeking reelection to the Senate, and a Rightist ideologue. > George Bush has nominated him to serve as Attorney General; -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:05:18 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Re: s/m and Cecelia Tan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit somehow Cecelia's fiction, IMO, has often not managed to find that important balance (in erotic writing) of being personal enough to be universal. Which is strange, because she is pretty good at sussing out that balance in others' fiction when she edits. Maryelizabeth (not commenting on Califia, 'cause I haven't read her...) -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:04:49 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Wray Subject: Re: horror and feminist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/19/01 7:53:19 PM, publicity@MYSTGALAXY.COM writes: << There are certainly feminist authors writing horror >> To my mind, there are certainly horrific moments in Charnas's Holdfast Chronicles. Not horror books, per se, but they have their chills. best, phoebe w -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:08:21 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Maryelizabeth Hart Organization: Mysterious Galaxy Subject: Thorne, etc.: Hart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd -- fair enough, I was overly brief. See my other Thorne post. :) M'e Todd Mason wrote: > Grr, Me. Grr. (Unless growling at a dismissal of the potential of horror > fiction to be feminist is in itself patriarchal oppression, then simply: > "Shame!") TM > > -----Original Message----- > From: Maryelizabeth Hart [mailto:publicity@MYSTGALAXY.COM] > > Tamara Thorne I think is too heavily invested in the horror genre to be > particularly feminist, > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- ******************************************************************* Mysterious Galaxy Books Local Phone: 858.268.4747 7051 Clairemont Mesa Blvd, Suite 302 Fax: 858.268.4775 San Diego, CA 92111 Long Distance/Orders: 1.800.811.4747 http://www.mystgalaxy.com General Email: mgbooks@mystgalaxy.com ******************************************************************* -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:24:54 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: horror and feminist: Hart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you want to read a most interesting bio read Shirley Jackson's biography Private Demons: The Life Of Shirley Jackson by Judy Oppenheimer. I read it from my college library and it was so fascinating to see how Jackson's ability to see right through to the core of a situation in her work was developed early on. It is hard to find as I have been looking for a used paperback copy of it for my library, but man what a good read. Jo Ann > Well, then...obviously the editors should've been the damned (worked for > Dante, and Niven and Pournelle)... TM > (and how'd I manage not to think of Jackson...) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:07:42 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Dianne Kraft Subject: Re: Lisa Tuttle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just to throw in my 2 cents worth about horror and feminism -- Lisa is a staunch feminist and writes a pretty creepy horror tale, so the two aren't exclusive at all. She writes mostly psychologically based horror, but I strongly recommend her work for those who like the genre. And as to Cindy Smith -- I disagree totally and completely, and find myself horrified and unable to talk with people coming from such a religiously narrow view of the world. I agree with whoever said there is no such thing as conservative feminism. Conservative right wing religious fanatics, who happen to be women, of course exist. Dianne Kraft -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:25:41 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: horror, tradition, and feminist points In-Reply-To: Maryelizabeth Hart 's message of Fri, 19 Jan 2001 16:51:53 -0800 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Feminists that believe prostitutio is anti-woman are missing the point. there are also men prostitutes, there are many prostitute woithou an exploitative pimp who exercise their freedom by pacticing volutariy this noble profession which can be extremely lucrative. As for Thorne's prostitutes in haunted, the madam elixabeth Baudy took in any woman in need and gave them a safe home, job training if thy did not which to practice prostitution, gave them education and clothing and took them out for job interviews to find then work in whatever the field interested yhem. Only those womaen who were set o prstitution did she take on in that capacity. AS for their being attacked, they were attacked by Christabe , Elizabeth's voodoo practicing daughter. And Chrisabel attackedboth men and wome - she even attacked a cat. SO there is no anti- women streak in Tamara Thorne. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:26:39 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez In-Reply-To: <19282-3A67B904-1311@storefull-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:48 PM 1/18/01 -0500, John Vazquez wrote: > Also, are there any feminist MALE sci-fi writers? Theodore Sturgeon wasn't quite feminist, exactly, but whatever he was, it also subsumed feminism. Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:32:33 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: <3A67E23B.94CC8A07@med.usyd.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_979979553==_" --=====================_979979553==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:44 PM 1/19/01 +1100, Lyle Burness wrote: > >2. STOP JOHN ASHCROFT - www.ROEvBUSH.com >Now that Dr. Laura is toast, it's time to focus on our next >challenge: Attorney General designate John Ashcroft. For >those concerned about gay rights, the rights of women, >African-Americans, and other minorities, Mr. Ashcroft's >nomination is bad news. > That's a heck of an understatement. It's probably way too late, but I take the liberty of attaching a piece I did a week or so ago. 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Pg== --=====================_979979553==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" -- NeilRest@enteract.com --=====================_979979553==_-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:39:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Ashcroft: Fletcher In-Reply-To: Jo Ann Rangel 's message of Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:02:26 -0800 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) It's not jsttha ascroft gave the interview to and right wing KKK type magazie, but that this publicatio heaps praise on asscroft as one of their champions and great true americans. what does that say about a man when the KKK holds you up as a hero to them??? also , on four occasions in Missouri asscroft held his hand up to take an oath and then proceeded to violate that oath. as for his being willing to enforce a woman's rght to choose, what does it say about a man who so deparately wants a job in which he will have to enforce "murder'? which is what he believes it is Can you imagine a jew in Nazi germany begging Hitler for a job where he would have to murder other Jews? Asscroft is bizarre and something of a freak.. He has tried to pass laws that would criminalize contraceptives such as the birth control pill. Surely, Bush who promised to be a uniter and not a divider could have found another conservative that wasn't over the edge -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:38:29 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: horror, tradition, and feminist points: Rangel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/19/2001 11:23:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, Todd.Mason@TVGUIDE.COM writes: << will again endorse as well Lisa Tuttle, Joyce Carol Oates, Kathe Koja, Rachel Pollack, hell--Jane Yolen, among many others for horror and near-horror written with a very feminist/feminism-informed sensibility. >> You forget Tanith Lee. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:41:06 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: horror and feminist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >And then there's Tepper, who wrote a few horror books that didn't turn >out as she wished after the editorial process Maryelizabeth Oh, that's interesting! I've never been able to get into the one under the Horlack pseud -- I've forgotten the title even though I just tried re-reading it a couple of weeks ago. The only other one I've had that problem with is The Revenants. But I enjoyed, and have enjoyed re-reading, Blood Heritage and The Bones (not least for the witches). > and consigned horror writers to hell, in BEAUTY. :) Yes -- I was never quite sure what she was doing there, and whether she would include her own horror in the condemnation! Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:46:55 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Ashcroft: Fletcher MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John wrote: >[Ashcroft] ... has tried >to pass laws that would criminalize contraceptives such as the birth >control pill. It's only logical if you believe life begins at conception: anything that prevents implantation would be unacceptable. Cindy: what methods of birth control do you as a conservative feminist consider acceptable? Frances (dedicatedly pro-choice, but comprehending the other viewpoint) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:52:19 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/19/2001 6:42:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET writes: << Conservative feminsm is an oxymoron!!!!!!!!! A self proclamed feminist who staunchly supports asscroft is obviously deluded!! >> Look, I am really glad that people on this list can talk politics with knowledge (as opposed to others) but I reallly, really hate statements like the ones above. Its somewhat similar to saying you can't be a feminist if you are headosexual (because of the sexual positions). And yes I actually read an article that stated that. As for Ashcroft I don't know enough about him to make an objective opinion. But I think (in regards to Gordon) someone who says that decentralized government is good (which is what the south had when they broke away) is NOT saying that slavery is good or romantizing the South. If you look at the South's governmnet and put aside slavery just for minute, some of the ideas were good. Of course, the whole government was corrupted by slavery but saying that the government had good points is not romantizing slavery. And while Slavery was a large part of the Civil War it was not by any means the only part. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:21:54 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: ashcroft Conservative feminism is _not_ an oxymoreon, John. Read what I wrote my carefully. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:32:55 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Ashcroft and Conservatism >From: Phoebe Wray >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Ashcroft: Smith...and Sonia Johnson and SHADOW OF T HE > VAMPIRE...of course! >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >In a message dated 1/19/01 6:27:43 PM, BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET writes: ><< Ashcroft who is a... etc etc >> >My problem with Ashcroft is that his views are well-known, and he has >passionately persued an anti-abortion etc etc stance. He's allowed. We should >stand up for what we believe, and should work to effect change if we think it >is needed. I respect his right to believe and act as he has. His admirers >tell us he has the integrity of his views. >THEN -- how could he totally switch off his deeply-felt convictions? Seems to >me if he is a man of honor he would turn down the nomination saying: I cannot >accept this because I would, by law, be forced to uphold and defend laws to >which I am morally opposed. >Thus, because he Wants to be Attorney General, and is willing to set aside >his convinctions, he has forfeited his honor. Public servants are frequently required to uphold laws with which they may or may not agree. If all public servants resigned who had ever been required to enforce a law with which they did not agree, we would have no public servants! Hmm, on the other hand, that might not be such a bad thing....:-) Seriously, should Democratic congressman who are Southern Baptism be required to resign because the Southern Baptist Convention opposes abortion and supports a Constitutional Amendment to ban abortion on demand? Should Ted Kennedy resign because the Catholic Church opposes abortion? Colin Powell disagreed with the Gulf War, but he followed orders. Are you suggesting that Colin Powell should have resigned as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff because he was asked to enforce the President's directives to wage war on Saddam Hussein when he personally disagreed with going to war over Kuwait? Are you serious? >phoebe w Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:42:20 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: <009F65F7.12C93CE0.6@dragon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:21 PM 1/19/01 -0500, Cindy Smith wrote: >Conservative feminism is _not_ an oxymoreon, John. Read what I wrote >my carefully. > I did read what you posted. What's feminist about "sex is for getting pregnant, period"? Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:49:20 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Ashcroft >From: MX%"haghome@BANET.NET" "Frances" 19-JAN-2001 22:57:02.90 >To: MX%"FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU" >Subj: Re: [*FSFFU*] Ashcroft: Fletcher >Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:46:55 -0500 >Reply-To: Frances >Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >From: Frances >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Ashcroft: Fletcher >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >John wrote: >>[Ashcroft] ... has tried >>to pass laws that would criminalize contraceptives such as the birth >>control pill. >It's only logical if you believe life begins at conception: anything that >prevents implantation would be unacceptable. Actually, while the Catholic Church asserts that life begins at conception, conception is defined as the moment in which the embryo attaches itself to the uterine wall. Thus, something that prevents that attachment would be considered an acceptable form of birth control. >Cindy: what methods of birth control do you as a conservative feminist consider >acceptable? Any birth control pill that is not an abortifacent is acceptable. Condoms, douches, iuds, etc., are all fine. >Frances >(dedicatedly pro-choice, but comprehending the other viewpoint) Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:24:17 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Ashcroft >From: Neil Rest >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] ashcroft >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >At 11:21 PM 1/19/01 -0500, Cindy Smith wrote: >>Conservative feminism is _not_ an oxymoreon, John. Read what I wrote >>my carefully. >I did read what you posted. >What's feminist about "sex is for getting pregnant, period"? The Catholic Church acknowledges that people have sexual intercourse for reasons other than reproduction; its position is simply that sexual intercourse within marriage is best and should afford opportunity to reproduce. I think birth control is find, as long as the pill is not an abortifacent. The Church's position is not ex cathedra. I am proudly a conservative feminist. >Neil Rest >NeilRest@enteract.com Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 00:46:05 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cindy wrote: >Actually, while the Catholic Church asserts that life begins at >conception, conception is defined as the moment in which the embryo >attaches itself to the uterine wall. This is the Catholic Church's definition? > Thus, something that prevents that attachment would be considered an acceptable form of birth control. Accepted by the Catholic Church? >The Catholic Church acknowledges that people have sexual intercourse >for reasons other than reproduction; its position is simply that >sexual intercourse within marriage is best and should afford >opportunity to reproduce. This is no longer mortal sin? >The Church's position is not ex cathedra. It isn't? I thought Vita Humanae (sorry, I've almost certainly misspelled that, I'm not a Latinist) was ex cathedra. I'm just checking -- I may well be mistaken in my theological information. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:55:23 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >What's feminist about "sex is for getting pregnant, period"? > > The Catholic Church acknowledges that people have sexual intercourse > for reasons other than reproduction; its position is simply that > sexual intercourse within marriage is best and should afford > opportunity to reproduce. I think birth control is find, as long as > the pill is not an abortifacent. The Church's position is not ex > cathedra. I am proudly a conservative feminist. Taken from your "fourteen points": 8. Pro-life: Women who have made a choice to have sex have de facto made a choice to have a child. Huh? These two things you're saying seem mutually exclusive, and I share Neil's confusion. You might want to re-word the beginning of point number 8, if what you really believe is what you wrote in answer to Neil's question. -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 01:06:24 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Is the list server acting oddly? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone else been getting these messages from Mailer-Daemon? The actual posts seem to go through ok. <> I had three after one post, and another just now. Anyone know this Mark Sheriff ? Frances (feeling a bit Twilight-Zoned) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 02:46:12 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: Christine Ethier 's message of Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:52:19 EST Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Chris wries that puttimg slavery "side" yhe south was good. Th's like sayin puttung nicoyine aside, cigaretts are good Slavery was an integral part of souther culure. The KKK magazine that Asscroft is associate with actually prases slavery as good for blacks. womne who call themselves fenivints and defend Asscroft ant the old south are in denial.. This reminds me Bush' compassionate conservatism. If coservatives had had a free ride, women would still not have the right to vote, or the right to choose or equal pay for equal work and blacks would still not have the right to equal education or the voting rights act. Feminism , by definition is progressive. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 02:59:03 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Ashcroft: Smith...and Sonia Johnson and SHADOW OF T HE VAMPIRE...of course! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Todd 100%! Please check out my review of 'Shadow of the Vampire' at scifidimensions.com! Thanks! Amy > For what it's worth, Cindy, most people are made wary by what they see as a > guy carrying grudges, notably against Justice White, and wonder at his > willingness to not let his far-right beliefs influence his job in similar > instances. > > And leftists like myself have done nothing but criticize the smarmy Sen. > Lieberman and his running mate, not least for their various pietistic > hypocrisies. > > Of course, I haven't been genuinely enthusiastic about a party nomineee for > President since the Citizen's Party (and it's Pennsylvanian affiliate, the > Consumer Party) nominated Sonia Johnson for the Presidency in 1984. Almost > a pity she'd probably never have any interest in running wtih the > Greens...her later books showed a development of thought that was not > congruent with political-office campaigning, and more power to her... > > And vampire fans may want to catch the NPR program FRESH AIR today, on > www.whyy.org streaming at 3pm and 7pm ET for those with no local NPR > affiliate, wherein they discuss SHADOW OF THE VAMPIRE, the new fantasy about > making NOSFERATU... > > TM > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cindy Smith [mailto:cms@DRAGON.COM] > Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 2:47 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] ashcroft > > > I rad feministsf for feminist science fiction and fantasy talk, > and not left-wing bigotry against a fine man like John Ashcroft. > Bigots are opposed to Ashcroft because of his religious beliefs, > claiming that a Christian cannot be expected to enforce the laws > of the land. Of course, no one on the left made similar comments > about Joe Lieberman. The left of this country is not only bigoted > but hypocritical. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:03:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura-----what perceptive comments----couldn't have said it better myself! Amy > > > Cindy, John Ashcroft has been vocal and consistent in his opposition to > women having control over their own reproduction, to the right of lesbians > and gays to choose partners of their own sex, and to the separation of > church and state. He has publicly attacked feminism as part of a global > communist conspiracy > (http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/Global_Governance/Ashcroft.htm), and has > (like Gale Norton) romanticized the South's ugly record of suppressing the > rights of African Americans and other minorities. > > As a private citizen he is certainly entitled to his own beliefs. I have > many good friends who are devout Christians--many of whom, by the way, I > believe could separate their politics from their religious beliefs, allowing > the kind of ethnic and religious diversity that this country is made of to > prosper while supporting the laws of the land. I do not have the same > confidence in Ashcroft. He has come out and said that he places his > religious convictions above the law. > > My brother-in-law, who was a police officer for years, told me once that as > a police officer he was duty-bound to enforce the law, even laws he didn't > agree with. Those who have repeatedly demonstrated that they consider other > principles a higher priority than the law -- as Ashcroft has -- do not > belong in law enforcement, never mind at its pinnacle. Those of us who > support equal protection for minorities, women, and gays, and who support a > woman's right to control her own reproduction, have been given no good > reason to believe that Ashcroft will enforce these laws that he finds so > abhorrent -- and we've been given plenty of good reasons not to. > > > > -l. > -- > Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ON THE SHELVES--- > _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx > COMING SOON--- > "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 > _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue > A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 03:08:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: John Vazquez 's message of Sat, 20 Jan 2001 02:46:12 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Feminism is by definition, progressive. Conservatism is ,by definition, regressive. to call one self a conservative feminist shows a narrow mindset and is akin to saying "I'm a progressive regressive- an obvious absurdity and oxymoron. I wonder why women like Phyllis Shafly hate feminists??? I wonder why Asscroft was so vehemently opposed to the ERA to the point of filing lawsuit after lawsuit against NOW and in his fanatical crusade against women's right took it all the was up to the supreme court, where he lost. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:17:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Ashcroft: Smith...and Sonia Johnson and SHADOW OF T HE VAMPIRE...of course! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How refreshing to find a guy who feels the way you do! Amy > Well I'm compelled to respond in my defense as a leftist christian at > being so meanly attacked as pietistically hypocritical We that consider > ouselves moderate are simply aghast at this bizarre nomination. Bush > promised to govern from the center and then chose Ashcroft who is a > fanatical cultist intolerant,bob jones honoree, anti feminist to the > extreme, anti woman's right to choose.racist, destroyer of Judge Ronnie > White, Anit gun control oreven safety locks and assault weapons, anti- > desegregation even when folks which to do so voluntarily among > themslves. He tried to sue NOW for boycotting his state because thy > practiced anti- woman discrimination. and after appealing > endlessy went to the supreme court and was rejected there as wel. He is > against a woman's right to choose an abortion even in the case of incest > and rape . He tried but fortunately faile to pass a bill that would have > made birth control pill illegal and imprisonedany doctor who prescribed > it. And woul impriso any nurse you even mentioned any form of > contraception to a patient. If he believes that any abortion is Murder > than why does he so desparately want the job that wold require him to > enforce "murder"?? I studied at Evagel college in Springfeld, > Missouriduring the early 70's and Ashcroft's father was the president. > I was kicked out of the college because my hair was slightly over my > ears. Dancing was a sin, wearing tank top in the summer was a sin. Rock > music was a banned sin on and on. No self respecting woman or black or > believer in the hate crimes bill could possibly support asscroft with > any self- respect. He rejected Hormel' appointment as embassador to > Luxembourg only becu. ase he was gay. A feminist asscroft supporter is > an oxymoron. asscroft would probably wish to outlaw and censor the > wonderful female writers we discuss here. What do you think he would > say about Lucy Taylor,Ann Rice, Tamara Thorne, Poppy z brite, Pat > Califia, Red Jordan Arobateau, Amarantha Knight....? Asscroft is a > right wing bigot from the fringes of the lunatic wing of the republic > party and qualifies as neo-confedarate, fascist that is dangerous to > women > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 03:22:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Helen Thompson Subject: Re: Ashcroft In-Reply-To: <009F65FF.C9B5E040.5@dragon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I am proudly a conservative feminist. > Oh, golly. I should have noted that the fact that the list had taken off again was a sign that something fun like this had come up. I'll try really really hard to not get angry, but at any rate.. conservative feminism is not the same thing nor should it be confused with feminist conservatism. I always considered myself a conservative feminist, but that's because my path is a more passive one, my activism lingering in the written media and the arts more than on the political landscape. But it's that my feminism has a more conservative voice, not that I am by any stretch of the imagination CONSERVATIVE. I'll concede to being a political moderate on a good many things, but not women's issues and not poverty. I missed the post that started this, and if it was even remotely enlightening as to what makes Smith's conservative feminism just so, I'm baffled by the notion that pro-life doctrine/policy and feminism could ever reach even colloidal suspension. To my mind, they do not mix. This next four years will, at least, shake us passive gen-x'ers out of our comfortable roost and get us speaking again. I see it happening around me and I'm thrilled about that fact, at least. Hate what brings us here, but the dialogue is fascinating; it's been giving me a lot of writing ideas and a lot of passion for articulating meaningful things. I'd be marching tomorrow, but my cat's diabetic. In the meantime, I have three weeks of solid black outfits to put to good use. Helen -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:16:07 -0500 Reply-To: scolling@julian.uwo.ca Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sharon Collingwood Subject: Re: ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, I am writing from Canada. You're welcome for the electricity - and by the way, we don't ban books, we just stop questionable material at the border. This, in itself, has raised quite a controversy here over the past several years. I enjoy this list, but I have signed on to discuss Feminist Science Fiction. I find American politics profoundly depressing, and hitting the "delete" button sixty times in one day is a bit much for me. Could I suggest that we keep the list topic in mind, and if there are posts to the list that people find objectionable ...even, perhaps, a bit weird... it might be a good idea just not to respond to them. Lists so often disappear in flames. It would be a pity if that happened here. ...one woman's opinion Sharon Collingwood -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:59:32 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Angela Engles Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: <009F65AF.2D349FE0.7@dragon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think it's a rather generalist remark to say that all leftists are bigots. There are legitimate concerns about Ashcroft out there (he has supported cutting funding for woman-owned and African-American owned businesses and he believes in abortions in all instances, even when the mother's life is at stake or a woman has been raped.) Another example: some of us "bigot liberals" lean towards pro-life but want protection for women who didn't "choose" to have sex (i.e. rape, incest.) The problem with politics (on both sides) is that sometimes people see things too cut and dry. Not everything has a one-sided "I'm right" answer. Feminism works best when it lets everyone (men and women of all races and backgrounds) have a say! Angie -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:36:59 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Deborah A. Oosterhouse" Subject: Re: horror, tradition, and feminist points: Rangel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > . . . a short story I have somewhere filed it is a reprint of a > story about 12 people who find themselves in a room, and one by one they are > made to go through a maze of traps, each one usually killing off one member > of the group while a steady voice pipes in informing the participants they > had better get moving or they will all perish, thus keeping the motion > momentum going, and the very last survivor makes it to the last room, where > there is a gun on a chair. And he is told he won the game he may use the > gun so he shoots himself in the head and finds himself starting the game > over with 11 more people. This sounds like a really interesting story. Apparently you thought it was well done, if you decided to keep a copy of it? Do you (or anyone else for that matter) have the title of the story and where you got it from? Deborah -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:00:43 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: listmistress comments Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i set up the other list to be specifically about sf literature, not politics. thus de facto liberalizing this list to be broader, and to allow discussion of things that would be interesting to people who are good-faith interested in feminist sf. so, i think that political discussion is okay. however, i would ask participants to refrain from flaming, suggesting that other people's opinions are invalid, or making personal comments about other people. stick to the issues. and DO remember that this is a list that is PRIMARILY about feminist sf. there are over 200 subscribers. if there are 5 or 10 of you talking about a particular issue, and not 200, you can bet that a good portion of the 200 NOT talking about it are NOT interested, and feeling frustrated. so be sympathetic to them & sensitive in your treatments. remember, it is completely possible to take a discussion off list. and please also remember: at the point where people stop listening to one another, and learning -- at the point where people are just agreeing -- then i think adults should agree to disagree, and move on. i'll be forwarding a copy of the list instructions to the list for a reminder to everyone of exactly what sorts of manners (good ones) people are supposed to employ in their interactions on this list. Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net list-mistress -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:27:22 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Reeves Subject: request MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, I am looking for a short short or short story magic realism piece by a well known magical realism writer that would be suitable to be adapted for the stage (I'm talking about something that would run about 20 minutes long in its final play form). Any suggestions? Also is the piece you're suggesting still available or out of print? Thanks so much for any help, Phoebe Reeves -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:44:31 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes! deLint qualifies also Dave Duncan, Samuel Delany, Jack Vance, James Schmitz (he was doing feisty women back in the 50s!), David Brin , Greg Bear, Greg Benford, John Varley, George R. R. Martin , Michael Moorcock, Michael Swanwick, Raymond Feist in collaboration with Janny Wurts, Walter John Williams, William Gibson, Bruce Sterling------hows that for starters! Amy Also, are there any feminist MALE sci-fi writers? Does > Charles DeLint qualify?? > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:15:41 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF WELCOME" (fwd) Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII fyi. Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:01:12 -0600 From: "L-Soft list server at UIC (1.8d)" To: Laura Quilter Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF WELCOME" Subject: Welcome to Feminist SF/Fantasy & Utopia ! List Purpose, Guidelines & Instructions Welcome to FeministSF - a list for fans, writers, activists and scholars to discuss feminist science fiction. Your list owner is Laura Quilter (lquilter@igc.apc.org) (and Chris Shaffer shaffer@uic.edu for emergencies). To unsubscribe, mail a message to: listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: unsubscribe feministsf If you have any problems contact the list-owner. For more information about Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy & Utopian literature, please check out the femsf web pages at http://www.exo.net/~lauraq/femsf/listserv/ -------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THE FEMINIST SF, FANTASY & UTOPIA LISTSERVE Interested in talking to other people about the works of Ursula Le Guin, Marge Piercy, Suzy McKee Charnas, Elisabeth Vonarburg, Joanna Russ, Octavia Butler and many others? Want to find out more about these authors, and other writers like them? The Feminist Science Fiction, Fantasy & Utopia ListServe is a space for discussion of this literature. It is a mailing list, which means that every email will go to all subscribers mailboxes. It is a primarily unmoderated list, which means that I will not be selecting or censoring comments. People can ask whatever questions they want about the topic, with one broad exception. Because I have been on many listserves relating to feminism which have inspired anti-feminists to harass other members, or engage the entire listserve in discussions about the nature, purpose, etc., of feminism, I wish to make it clear from the outset that this listserve is for discussion of the literature. Discussion of feminism as a philosophy belong on a feminist discussion group. Discussion of feminism, as it pertains to literature or particular works of literature, is perfectly appropriate. I will remove people from the listserve who behave in an inappropriate manner after one warning. General Guidelines for ListServe Behavior: * Don't "flame" other people - be considerate & polite * If you have something to say, say it! Other people are interested in your opinion -- that's why they joined a discussion list. * Conversely, if you don't have anything to say, don't say it. On a moderate-to-heavy traffic listserve, it is not helpful to send postings saying "I agree" or "yeah!" If you don't have additional thoughts which expand or add to or confront the original post, then send your comments to the original poster privately. * If you wish to comment about a posting but the comment is not really on topic, consider sending it to the original poster privately. You can make good friends by starting private discussions this way. * Please try to stick to the general topic. Many people on the listserve may not be very talkative but are very interested in the topic. They subscribed to read about feminist science fiction, fantasy & utopian literature. This is not a list just about feminism, or a list just about sf/fantasy/utopia. It is a list about the intersection of the two. Please respect that and help others respect it. * If someone else is not sticking to the topic, don't flame them. Try bringing the topic back to feminist sf-f-utopia with a related, transitional posting that is ON topic. That will be more useful than a comment that is only about "keeping the list on topic," and it can keep the list a pleasant place to be. * Don't make assumptions about other people. The list is very diverse, including men and women, people from many nationalities, ethnic origins, religions, ages and different experiences. Respect the other participants and the experiences they bring to the discussion. These rules are subject to change when we see how they work! This list began 3/2/97. -------------------------------------------------- Subscribing and Unsubscribing Use the online subscription request to subscribe only or send a message to: listserv@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: subscribe feministsf Your Name or unsubscribe feministsf Conversing with Fellow Participants To send a note to the discussion list and all its participants: send a message to: feministsf@listserv.uic.edu and in the body of the message type: Whatever your message is -------------------------------------------------- Please save this message for future reference, especially if this is the first time you subscribe to an electronic mailing list. If you ever need to leave the list, you will find the necessary instructions below. Perhaps more importantly, saving a copy of this message (and of all future subscription notices from other mailing lists) in a special mail folder will give you instant access to the list of mailing lists that you are subscribed to. This may prove very useful the next time you go on vacation and need to leave the lists temporarily so as not to fill up your mailbox while you are away! You should also save the "welcome messages" from the list owners that you will occasionally receive after subscribing to a new list. To send a message to all the people currently subscribed to the list, just send mail to FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. This is called "sending mail to the list", because you send mail to a single address and LISTSERV makes copies for all the people who have subscribed. This address (FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU) is also called the "list address". You must never try to send any command to that address, as it would be distributed to all the people who have subscribed. All commands must be sent to the "LISTSERV address", LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. It is very important to understand the difference between the two, but fortunately it is not complicated. The LISTSERV address is like a FAX number that connects you to a machine, whereas the list address is like a normal voice line connecting you to a person. If you make a mistake and dial the FAX number when you wanted to talk to someone on the phone, you will quickly realize that you used the wrong number and call again. No harm will have been done. If on the other hand you accidentally make your FAX call someone's voice line, the person receiving the call will be inconvenienced, especially if your FAX then re-dials every 5 minutes. The fact that most people will eventually connect the FAX machine to the voice line to allow the FAX to go through and make the calls stop does not mean that you should continue to send FAXes to the voice number. People would just get mad at you. It works pretty much the same way with mailing lists, with the difference that you are calling hundreds or thousands of people at the same time, and consequently you can expect a lot of people to get upset if you consistently send commands to the list address. You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF FEMINISTSF" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. You can also tell LISTSERV how you want it to confirm the receipt of messages you send to the list. If you do not trust the system, send a "SET FEMINISTSF REPRO" command and LISTSERV will send you a copy of your own messages, so that you can see that the message was distributed and did not get damaged on the way. After a while you may find that this is getting annoying, especially if your mail program does not tell you that the message is from you when it informs you that new mail has arrived from FEMINISTSF. If you send a "SET FEMINISTSF ACK NOREPRO" command, LISTSERV will mail you a short acknowledgement instead, which will look different in your mailbox directory. With most mail programs you will know immediately that this is an acknowledgement you can read later. Finally, you can turn off acknowledgements completely with "SET FEMINISTSF NOACK NOREPRO". Following instructions from the list owner, your subscription options have been set to "MIME" rather than the usual LISTSERV defaults. For more information about subscription options, send a "QUERY FEMINISTSF" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. Contributions sent to this list are automatically archived. You can get a list of the available archive files by sending an "INDEX FEMINISTSF" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. You can then order these files with a "GET FEMINISTSF LOGxxxx" command, or using LISTSERV's database search facilities. Send an "INFO DATABASE" command for more information on the latter. This list is available in digest form. If you wish to receive the digested version of the postings, just issue a SET FEMINISTSF DIGEST command. Please note that it is presently possible for other people to determine that you are signed up to the list through the use of the "REVIEW" command, which returns the e-mail address and name of all the subscribers. If you do not want your name to be visible, just issue a "SET FEMINISTSF CONCEAL" command. More information on LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO REFCARD" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU. - updated 3/12/97 lq, revised 9/23/97, 9/2/99 lq -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 15:34:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez In-Reply-To: Amy Harlib 's message of Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:44:31 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Thanks for your response, Amy; Now I a'm abit puzzled.. I had mentioned that Pat Califia's books were banned in Canada. Sharon corrects me by explaining that Canada does not ban books they simply don't allow them to enter the country, and if sneaked in, one would be supposedly ceriminally prsecured. Now what is the difference between banning a book and not allowing to be brought into the country? If ms Califia moved to Canada and tried to publish there would she be allowed to publish the same material that Canada won't aloow to enter. Also what about such feminist writer such as Cecilia Tan, Lucy Taylor, Poppy Z Brite, Amarantha Knight, Red Jordan Arobateau and the incendiary feminist Kate Millet... aare Canadian allowed to read them? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:54:49 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Ashcroft >From: MX%"haghome@BANET.NET" "Frances" 20-JAN-2001 00:55:43.58 >To: MX%"FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU" >Subj: Re: [*FSFFU*] Ashcroft >From: Frances >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Ashcroft >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Cindy wrote: >>Actually, while the Catholic Church asserts that life begins at >>conception, conception is defined as the moment in which the embryo >>attaches itself to the uterine wall. >This is the Catholic Church's definition? Yes. >> Thus, something that prevents that attachment would be considered an >acceptable form of birth control. >Accepted by the Catholic Church? Yes. In the case of rape, the Church encourages doctors to scrape the wall to prevent pregnancy from occurring. >>The Catholic Church acknowledges that people have sexual intercourse >>for reasons other than reproduction; its position is simply that >>sexual intercourse within marriage is best and should afford >>opportunity to reproduce. >This is no longer mortal sin? It has not, to my knowledge, ever been a mortal sin. >>The Church's position is not ex cathedra. >It isn't? I thought Vita Humanae (sorry, I've almost certainly misspelled that, >I'm not a Latinist) was ex cathedra. No, it isn't ex cathedra. Nor is Human Vitae ex cathedra. The last time the Pope made an ex cathedra pronouncement was in 1950. >I'm just checking -- I may well be mistaken in my theological information. Happy to oblige. >Frances Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:57:18 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Ashcroft >From: Sandy Candioglos >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Ashcroft >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >> >What's feminist about "sex is for getting pregnant, period"? >> The Catholic Church acknowledges that people have sexual intercourse >> for reasons other than reproduction; its position is simply that >> sexual intercourse within marriage is best and should afford >> opportunity to reproduce. I think birth control is find, as long as >> the pill is not an abortifacent. The Church's position is not ex >> cathedra. I am proudly a conservative feminist. >Taken from your "fourteen points": >8. Pro-life: Women who have made a choice to have sex have de facto > made a choice to have a child. >Huh? These two things you're saying seem mutually exclusive, and I share Neil's >confusion. You might want to re-word the beginning of point number 8, if what >you really believe is what you wrote in answer to Neil's question. Birth control before pregnancy is fine. Birth control _after_ pregnancy, using abortifacents, is not okay. > -Sandy Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:20:23 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> >What's feminist about "sex is for getting pregnant, period"? > > >> The Catholic Church acknowledges that people have sexual intercourse > >> for reasons other than reproduction; its position is simply that > >> sexual intercourse within marriage is best and should afford > >> opportunity to reproduce. I think birth control is find, as long as > >> the pill is not an abortifacent. The Church's position is not ex > >> cathedra. I am proudly a conservative feminist. > > >Taken from your "fourteen points": > > >8. Pro-life: Women who have made a choice to have sex have de facto > > made a choice to have a child. > > >Huh? These two things you're saying seem mutually exclusive, and I share Neil's > >confusion. You might want to re-word the beginning of point number 8, if what > >you really believe is what you wrote in answer to Neil's question. > > Birth control before pregnancy is fine. Birth control _after_ > pregnancy, using abortifacents, is not okay. Um...you're just repeating your reply to Neil. To my mind, that doesn't jibe with your point 8. I've chosen to have sex, but I've also chosen to have PROTECTED sex, and I have NOT chosen to have a child...according to what you've said since, that's fine, but it is the opposite of what your point 8 says. I'm just wondering why point 8 is worded the way it is, if what you believe is what you've said since. That's all. -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:32:09 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: request In-Reply-To: <3A69D88A.DFF6D560@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:27 AM 1/20/01 -0800, Phoebe Reeves wrote: >I am looking for a short short or short story magic realism piece by a well >known magical realism writer that would be suitable to be adapted for the >stage (I'm talking about something that would run about 20 minutes long in >its final play form). > >Any suggestions? Also is the piece you're suggesting still available or out >of print? (It seems almost everything is out of print!) See if you can find collecitons of Lucius Shepard's (sp?) short stories. He's done some wonderful things with U.S military in Latin America. (That is, it's the stories that are wonderful.) Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 14:47:34 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: Ashcroft In-Reply-To: <009F668A.831F9780.5@dragon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII this business of scraping the walls of the uterus is interesting. i have known people who are anti-abortion who have said that their position is that from the moment egg & sperm meet, there should be no human interference -- thus they object to norplant and the pill. norplant and the pill work, in part, by making the uterine wall inhospitable for implantation by a fertilized egg. so it seems there is some disagreement among the anti-abortion people as to at what point a fertilized egg can be interfered with. how interesting. laura quilter On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Cindy Smith wrote: > >From: Sandy Candioglos > >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Ashcroft > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > >> >What's feminist about "sex is for getting pregnant, period"? > > >> The Catholic Church acknowledges that people have sexual intercourse > >> for reasons other than reproduction; its position is simply that > >> sexual intercourse within marriage is best and should afford > >> opportunity to reproduce. I think birth control is find, as long as > >> the pill is not an abortifacent. The Church's position is not ex > >> cathedra. I am proudly a conservative feminist. > > >Taken from your "fourteen points": > > >8. Pro-life: Women who have made a choice to have sex have de facto > > made a choice to have a child. > > >Huh? These two things you're saying seem mutually exclusive, and I share Neil's > >confusion. You might want to re-word the beginning of point number 8, if what > >you really believe is what you wrote in answer to Neil's question. > > Birth control before pregnancy is fine. Birth control _after_ > pregnancy, using abortifacents, is not okay. > > > -Sandy > > > Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter > GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia > cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion > cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off > cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:08:41 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jane Fletcher Subject: Re: Roman Catholic Church and contraception MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cindy I found your version of the Roman Catholic church's attitude to contraception so surprising that I've been taking a little time to surf around and see if the Pope really has done a U-turn on the subject. From what I can see the situation has not changed. The Roman Catholic church opposes *all* methods of contraception - except the 'rhythm method'. This is causes huge problems in developing countries with regard to condoms and halting the advance of AIDS. For example I attach a BBC news clip from last June. Jane ==================== Brazil attacks church 'setback' on Aids The Brazilian Government has reacted angrily to comments from Roman Catholic bishops reaffirming the church's opposition to the use of condoms. A spokesman for the health ministry, Paolo Teixiera, said the government understood the church had certain doctrines, but that those doctrines shouldn't be confused with dogma. He said the question of public health must be taken seriously. On Friday, the National Bishop's Association in Brazil backed the Vatican's position on birth control, countering reports that some church leaders were considering allowing the use of condoms to help halt the spread of Aids. Brazil has the second highest rate of HIV infection in the Americas. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:06:43 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Tane' Tachyon Organization: Tachyon Labs Subject: Re: Ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sandy Candioglos wrote: > > > >8. Pro-life: Women who have made a choice to have sex have de facto > > > made a choice to have a child. > > > > >Huh? These two things you're saying seem mutually exclusive, and I share Neil's > > >confusion. You might want to re-word the beginning of point number 8, if what > > >you really believe is what you wrote in answer to Neil's question. > > > > Birth control before pregnancy is fine. Birth control _after_ > > pregnancy, using abortifacents, is not okay. > > Um...you're just repeating your reply to Neil. To my mind, that doesn't jibe with > your point 8. I've chosen to have sex, but I've also chosen to have PROTECTED sex, > and I have NOT chosen to have a child...according to what you've said since, that's > fine, but it is the opposite of what your point 8 says. I'm just wondering why > point 8 is worded the way it is, if what you believe is what you've said since. > That's all. > > -Sandy I assumed it was worded that way to amuse lesbians. :-) -- Tane' Tachyon = tachyon@tachyonlabs.com = http://www.tachyonlabs.com/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 19:24:46 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Roman Catholic Church and contraception In-Reply-To: Jane Fletcher 's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:08:41 -0000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I hope Cindy doesn't consider the pope feminist conservative -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 17:05:53 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: horror, tradition, and feminist points: Rangel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tonight I will be going through a couple of boxes looking for project items I will see where I put the magazine at, I think the mag was a small press mag called After Hours, and it is a summer issue but I cant remember the year I will find out for you, thanks Jo Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deborah A. Oosterhouse" To: Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] horror, tradition, and feminist points: Rangel > Jo Ann Rangel wrote: > > > . . . a short story I have somewhere filed it is a reprint of a > > story about 12 people who find themselves in a room, and one by one they are > > made to go through a maze of traps, each one usually killing off one member > > of the group while a steady voice pipes in informing the participants they > > had better get moving or they will all perish, thus keeping the motion > > momentum going, and the very last survivor makes it to the last room, where > > there is a gun on a chair. And he is told he won the game he may use the > > gun so he shoots himself in the head and finds himself starting the game > > over with 11 more people. > > This sounds like a really interesting story. Apparently you thought it was well > done, if you decided to keep a copy of it? Do you (or anyone else for that > matter) have the title of the story and where you got it from? > > Deborah > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 17:40:37 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: Ashcroft; women and procreation;handmaids tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am curious about something because my life experience has some understandings lacking by a long shot, I always wondered something after this experience I had a few years ago. I met and went out on one date with a man who did not tell me until we were out on the date he was a married man. I quickly ended that date and asked him to drop me off, but one thing he tried to explain has made me wonder. He told me his wife halted sexual relations with him when she found out from their physician she would not be able to have a child. Now, overlook the fact that this married man was probably trying to give me a line to get me to feel sorry that he hasnt had sex in awhile, and look at this statement with me, are there women in today's society, who believe that sex is only for procreation and thus, if a woman cannot procreate, she cannot have sex at all, end of story? I understand a lot of this is my naitivity on this topic, but thinking back to my own whacked childhood, my own mother wanted desperately to have more children, but had several miscarriages. She suffered from a mental illness we did not understand until shortly before her death from a stroke, but I recall times where she would say to herself it will be allright if she can get pregnant. This identity with procreation and womanhood is of interest to me, that there could be this dichotomy occuring with one portion of the female population enjoying the benefits of the women's movement by not being so preoccupied with not having reproductive rights they grew up always knowing they had this freedom...but women of another generation, were they taught to believe that without this ability to procreate, they were less than women? Am not specifically aiming this question at Catholics, there are Fundamentalists, and other groups of folks who have just as much restraint over the sexual freedom of women as the usual suspects when such discussions are brought up. To swing this into FSF, Offred in Handmaid's Tale, reflected upon her own motherhood in the narrative of her story, this basic need to be able to produce offspring is the catalyst for much of the elements of the regime she was living in. It was a threshhold for the upper classes to cross, to be able to "procreate" and support the government with the drive to sustain the human populace. To want to destroy an unborn child was the ultimate threat in the regime's eyes to destroying the human race, am paraphrasing the scenes together when that guy was found guilty for his crime against the handmaid and was beaten to death. Does anyone on this list recall any experiences of perhaps hearing this type of belief from a woman? That the only purpose of sex is procreation and thats all? In Butler's Parable Of The Sower, in that dystopian environment, the protagonist was being raised with typical values for our time say 1960s or 1950s, but her eye witness accounts of what was really happening around her with the destruction and disintegration of the neighborhood she lived in and the falling apart of her community, to expect her to uphold such values did not fit with her reality. She had sex with her boyfriend and she in her mind, and in the narrative assumed her life would be "normal", meaning she was going to marry her boyfriend and have some kids and live a normal life inside her community, but this is shattered one night when the people outside the barricaded community break through into the neighborhood and turn her world completely inside out. A good read by the way if you have never read any of Butler's books, I completed my first summer research project about this work awhile back and when I presented this work as an introduction to the field of FSF, I always received commentary from students who never thought of such works being inclusive of its own category before so, the word about this field is getting out there one student at a time you could say, grin. Jo Ann -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 20:48:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Roman Catholic Church and contraception Jane, I know the Catholic Church's position on contraception has not changed. I simply stated that I don't agree with the Church's position on birth control because the Church's position is not ex cathedra. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:15:45 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Nina M. Osier" Subject: Re: Ashcroft; women and procreation;handmaids tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanne, during my training for the Fundamentalist ministry (which I left when I realized I was going to be limited to "pastoring" other women, and of course children!) I took a course entitled "Pastor's Ministry to the Sick." The man who taught it, who happened to be the college's president and a doctor of divinity, took up in one session the issue of, "When should you refuse to perform a wedding?" I was flabbergasted when he said in one of the case studies he presented that he would not perform a terminally ill man's wedding "because there was no possibility of establishing a home and a family, and therefore it wouldn't be Biblical." On the subject of "scraping the walls" to prevent pregnancy: a D&C (dilation of the cervix and curettage of the uterus) is a surgical procedure that I can't imagine a doctor performing for that purpose. It's done sometimes to obtain tissue for diagnostic reasons, sometimes to treat unexplained and otherwise uncontrollable bleeding, often to remove tissue remaining after a miscarriage. It's also a method of performing an abortion. I had mine three months ago to get rid of a hemorrhaging fibroid, and while it sure beat a hysterectomy - for me it meant severe internal swelling (as in "pelvic floor too paralyzed to pee") that got worse for a solid week before starting to improve, and that took three weeks to subside. Total recovery period, six weeks. It's usually much shorter and easier than that, true - but it's not something a GYN would be doing to a rape victim as a preventative measure! At least I surely HOPE not. Morning-after medication would be the way to go, until/unless there was a pregnancy to deal with. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:26:46 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/20/2001 2:46:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET writes: << Chris wries that puttimg slavery "side" yhe south was good. >> Meant the south had some good ideas in regard to government in the opinion of some people. And you can be a feminist and a conservative. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:47:35 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: earthyfemme Subject: OT: NCers In-Reply-To: <01b101c08250$3ead1920$0c334f0c@oemcomputer> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit are there any listers in NC? there's a continuing series of readings/discussions in Durham about African Americans in sci fi and Delany comes up quite a bit in conversations.. V. Lee -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:01:07 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: OT: NCers In-Reply-To: earthyfemme 's message of Sat, 20 Jan 2001 22:47:35 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Chri writes, puttint slavery aside, the south ha d good ideas. This is like saying: putting the holocaust aside, Nazism had some cool ideas, or putting nicotine aside , tobacco is pretty good. These are absurdities. Slavery defined the south. no one sys , putting crime aside, the mafia had some really good ideas ( love of their fanmilie, loyalty etc.) THe south was and continues to be a cancer i our midst. those revisionists and apologigsts should look within themselves for any sighns of yhtis insidious cancer called racism -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:28:29 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: OT: NCers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/2001 12:03:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET writes: << THe south was and continues to be a cancer i our midst. those revisionists and apologigsts should look within themselves for any sighns of yhtis insidious cancer called racism >> I am not a revionist or an apolgists. I was stating an opinion upon which historians agree. Nor am I from the South. I live in PA and had ancestors who died in Civil War fighing on the side of the Union. Please do not call me a Racist. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:38:47 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: OT: NCers In-Reply-To: Christine Ethier 's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:28:29 EST Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) anyone who makes light of the holocaust ( and there are plenty of historins willing to defend Hitler) would be called Anti smetic. Why the duble standard? are not blacks as human as jews? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 00:41:36 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: OT: NCers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/2001 12:39:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET writes: << anyone who makes light of the holocaust ( and there are plenty of historins willing to defend Hitler) would be called Anti smetic. Why the duble standard? are not blacks as human as jews? ------------- >> I was NOT making light of the Holocaust. I was not denying that slavery was a huge injustice and a terrible act. I was not defending the South. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 01:07:11 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: <55.1015e7f5.279bb0f6@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:26 PM 1/20/01 EST, Christine Ethier wrote: > ><< Chris wries that puttimg slavery "side" yhe south was good. >> >Meant the south had some good ideas in regard to government in the opinion of >some people. And you can be a feminist and a conservative. > Sorry, "states' rights" does not mean that my state can pass a law allowing its residents to go into your state and perform kidnappings, apologists notwithstanding. ("fugitive slave laws") Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:41:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: Neil Rest 's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2001 01:07:11 -0600 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) feminism and conservatism are antithetical. It is analogous to saying, I am a progresive regressive. One cannot have it both ways. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:46:01 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: Neil Rest 's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2001 01:07:11 -0600 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Those that insist that they are feminist conservatives (progressive regessives) cannot be reasoned with; they seem to be living in a "fantasy" world; forgive the pun. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:39:22 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Ashcroft In-Reply-To: <3A6A2813.651CA462@tachyonlabs.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/20/01 5:06 PM, Tane' Tachyon at tachyon@TACHYONLABS.COM wrote: > Sandy Candioglos wrote: >> >>>> 8. Pro-life: Women who have made a choice to have sex have de facto >>>> made a choice to have a child. >>> > > I assumed it was worded that way to amuse lesbians. :-) > -- > Tane' Tachyon = tachyon@tachyonlabs.com = http://www.tachyonlabs.com/ lol -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:45:47 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Ashcroft; women and procreation;handmaids tale In-Reply-To: <005a01c0834b$28858a00$790cf4d8@w95s> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/20/01 6:40 PM, Jo Ann Rangel at silkstarlight@SPRINTMAIL.COM wrote: > look at this statement with me, are there women in > today's society, who believe that sex is only for procreation and thus, if a > woman cannot procreate, she cannot have sex at all, end of story? I > understand a lot of this is my naitivity on this topic, but thinking back to > my own whacked childhood, my own mother wanted desperately to have more > children, but had several miscarriages. She suffered from a mental illness > we did not understand until shortly before her death from a stroke, but I > recall times where she would say to herself it will be allright if she can > get pregnant. This identity with procreation and womanhood is of interest > to me, that there could be this dichotomy occuring with one portion of the > female population enjoying the benefits of the women's movement by not being > so preoccupied with not having reproductive rights they grew up always > knowing they had this freedom...but women of another generation, were they > taught to believe that without this ability to procreate, they were less > than women? This is certainly the case for Kenyan women I knew when I lived there. It was critically important to them (and to the men, and to the community at large) that they bear children (_and_ please the men sexually -- but it was more important that they demonstrate the men's potency and their own fertility by becoming pregnant). They weren't considered wholly women until they did. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 06:03:06 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: ashcroft - LONG POST In-Reply-To: <16707-3A6AA1C9-2227@storefull-166.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Christine Ethier writes: > In a message dated 1/20/2001 2:46:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET writes: > >> << Chris wries that puttimg slavery "side" yhe south was good. >> > > Meant the south had some good ideas in regard to government in the opinion of > some people. And you can be a feminist and a conservative. I do understand that there are many conservatives, private citizens, who take in good faith that states' rights is what their political leadership says it is. I certainly used to try to give the term, and the politicians who used it, the benefit of the doubt. But I've gotten a real eye-opener recently as I've done some reading on the years prior to the Civil War. The Civil War and the struggles that preceded it were about the appropriate uses and boundaries of power in American society. And like a huge stone dropped in a pond, the ripple effects from that conflict are still very much a part of our lives. So it pays to understand the underlying causes. The current meme floated by conservative intellectual and political leaders is that the South seceded from the Union to protect themselves against federal abuses of power. They argue that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery per se', but about a larger issue: that of keeping the right of self-determination and control at the more local level. This "local representation" argument has broad popular appeal in our democratic society. We're all too aware of the abuses tyrannies are capable of, so the argument sounds good to us. Clearly, however, there is something else going on -- some kind of link between the term "states' rights" and the Civil War -- that seems to bop around the Zeitgeist and not get directly addressed. I never understood this. Why was "states' rights" such a charged term? It reminded me a little of an alcoholic or abusive family. There is almost always a dynamic that appears to be about one thing, but is actually about something else. The family members have arguments that to an outsider seem baffling, riddled as they are with code words that seem to mean more, or other, than they should. When you get a whiff of something like this, it's what's NOT being said that is important to understand the true dynamic. So I did some research into the origins of the Civil War. And what I found was quite startling. States' rights was definitely an issue before the Civil War, but not in the way you might expect. During the decades before 1860, the South fought hard in the federal courts (and succeeded) to institute federal case law forcing Northern states to allow Southern states to kidnap blacks in the North and return them to the South without interference (including not only escaped slaves, but free blacks), in violation of Northern state laws. They also litigated (and again succeeded, in the infamous Dred Scott decision in 1857) to have it declared that Southerners were free to bring their slaves with them to free states, keeping those slaves in bondage in defiance of Northern state laws opposing slavery. The Court declared that no state had the right to grant freedom and citizenship to such slaves, nor to prevent their entry into the state. It was the _Northern_ states rebelling against being forced by federal law to accept the existence of slavery in their own lands that led to Lincoln being elected three years later, on a platform _not_ of abolishing slavery, but of refusing to allow the South to continue to extend their slavery into the North. It was the _South_ that used federal law, opposing states' rights to support slavery. When it looked like they could no longer do so, they protected slavery by seceding. After the Civil War, to regain political power, the Southern leadership began to maintain that their struggle was over states' rights, not over the issue of slavery. (Why did they choose "states' rights?" It's really all they had to stand on, in terms of broader principles that potentially friendly ears in the North could accept as also being in their interests. I'll also note that it's a handy term for the losing side in the Civil War to use, as it plays nicely into any lingering regrets and guilt the victors might have.) But their underlying goals remain the same. The great power struggle in America is, and has been for the past 200+ years, a struggle between those who want to carve out a ruling class for themselves in America, and those who want America to be the land of opportunity for everyone. The religious/political right's leadership comes solidly out of the tradition of southern aristocracy. But in a country whose founding principles are based on equal rights and access to the law, they have to dress their message up so it'll taste better going down. Thus the term "states' rights" as it is used by conservative leaders is not truly about protecting the states from federal abuses of power -- since those who use the term are more than happy to use federal means when it serves their ends. "States' rights" is merely code for keeping the American aristocracy in power, via whatever means. As in this past election. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:11:45 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/2001 3:46:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET writes: << Those that insist that they are feminist conservatives (progressive regessives) cannot be reasoned with; they seem to be living in a "fantasy" world; forgive the pun. >> Excuse me? This for the person who believes that the South, even today, should be wiped from the face of the earth. And you never, ever win an agruement by insulting the opposing side, which is something you have done, repeatly. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:17:08 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/2001 2:09:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM writes: << Sorry, "states' rights" does not mean that my state can pass a law allowing its residents to go into your state and perform kidnappings, apologists notwithstanding. ("fugitive slave laws") >> Never said it did. Was just referring to a decentralized government. That's all. Geez. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:47:32 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: ashcroft - LONG POST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/2001 8:04:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM writes: << they argue that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery per se', but about a larger issue: that of keeping the right of self-determination and control at the more local level. >> I never said that. I said slavery was a large issue but not the only one. I never said slavery was right, in fact I think it was and is wrong and an horrible event. To call a person a "racist" simply because he/she voices an opinion shows narrow mindness, to be insulted because one believes that a person can be both a conservative and a feminist shows mean spiritness and a lack of understanding/open mindess. The funny things is, shouldn't discussions be about open mindess and understanding? Christine -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:50:28 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: ashcroft - LONG POST In-Reply-To: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" 's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2001 06:03:06 -0700 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Laura, I couldn't have put it better than you have. Brilliant!!! Best succint acccount of the south's attempted revisionism. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 11:07:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rose Reith Subject: Re: Roman Catholic Church and contraception In-Reply-To: <001301c0833e$64618ea0$3828fc3e@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I too find Cindy's position puzzling, although I have also read that American Catholics & some Catholic clergy are inclined to tailor their beliefs on issues like this to accomodate the American way of thinking regarding freedom and privacy etc. ( I have also read that in Rome they find this extremely irritating) In any case I went to the internet to research a few of the comments that have been passing back & forth in this conversation, and it appears that nothing has changed in what the church teaches - technically birth control can be considered a mortal sin etc. Here is the website that I thought explained it all fairly clearly and actually comes down it seems on the side of making your own decision. There are quite a few other issues discussed here too related to celibacy etc. Birth control and the Catholic Church is at: http://members.aol.com/revising/index.html Rose >Cindy > >I found your version of the Roman Catholic church's attitude to >contraception so surprising that I've been taking a little time to surf >around and see if the Pope really has done a U-turn on the subject. From >what I can see the situation has not changed. The Roman Catholic church >opposes *all* methods of contraception - except the 'rhythm method'. This is >causes huge problems in developing countries with regard to condoms and >halting the advance of AIDS. For example I attach a BBC news clip from last >June. > >Jane > >==================== >Brazil attacks church 'setback' on Aids > >The Brazilian Government has reacted angrily to comments from Roman Catholic >bishops reaffirming the church's opposition to the use of condoms. > >A spokesman for the health ministry, Paolo Teixiera, said the government >understood the church had certain doctrines, but that those doctrines >shouldn't be confused with dogma. > >He said the question of public health must be taken seriously. > >On Friday, the National Bishop's Association in Brazil backed the Vatican's >position on birth control, countering reports that some church leaders were >considering allowing the use of condoms to help halt the spread of Aids. > >Brazil has the second highest rate of HIV infection in the Americas. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Information is not knowledge. ~Caleb Carr, KILLING TIME -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 11:12:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: Christine Ethier 's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:11:45 EST Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) For heaven's sake, where did you get the idea that I believe the south should be wiped off the face of the earth? I live in Georgia, but am ashamed of my fellow Georgians lack of tolerance and bigotry. You say one never wins an argument by insulting the opposite side; well that assumes the other side is grounded in present reality, not still living in the civil war days or in their "fantasy" (excuse the pun. Also, they insult african americans by flying the racist confedrate flag over public buidings; go preach to them about not insulting others. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:00:01 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Oppose John Ashcroft! Comments: To: QFF1mag.aol.com@wwbfarm2.iserver.net, fashimbo@earthlink.net PLEASE READ THIS AND SIGN THE PETITION! OPPOSE THIS EXTREMIST! THANK YOU! AMY ------ INFORMATION FROM www.OpposeAshcroft.com-------- Visit http://www.OpposeAshcroft.com for more information. The position of Attorney General demands that the person who fills it be beyond reproach: a person of integrity and good judgment. John Ashcroft is a right-wing conservative with an exceptionally poor civil rights record and an astonishingly bad history concerning reproductive rights. He has voted against affirmative action and anti- discrimination laws, against a crucial AIDS provision, against environmental protections, and has received extraordinarily high ratings and accolades from prominent ultra-conservative groups and institutions like the Christian Coalition and Bob Jones University. Moreover, Mr. Ashcroft's actions regarding the Ronnie White nomination demonstrate a clear lack of integrity. People For the American Way, the NAACP, NARAL, LCCR, the Sierra Club, Planned Parenthood, the National Council of Jewish Women and other groups oppose the nomination of former Senator John Ashcroft to the position of Attorney General. Please visit: http://www.opposeashcroft.com Then add your voice by signing the petition there. This petition will be delivered to your Senator. Please urge all your friends to call as well and visit http://www.opposeashcroft.com for more information about his nomination. --- This message was sent to you by aharlib@worldnet.att.net through the website http://www.opposeashcroft.com/ Report all incidences of abuse to webmaster@opposeashcroft.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 10:03:58 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Reeves Subject: Re: request MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks, Neil. I love Shepard's work; unfortunately, the group I am working with is not familiar with him and they are looking for more of a mass recognition appeal writer's work in order to help draw audience. Someone like Allende or Esquivel or Vonnegut who has done a blockbuster that nearly anyone would recognize (film or book, I mean.) Phoebe Neil Rest wrote: > At 10:27 AM 1/20/01 -0800, Phoebe Reeves wrote: > > >I am looking for a short short or short story magic realism piece by a well > >known magical realism writer that would be suitable to be adapted for the > >stage (I'm talking about something that would run about 20 minutes long in > >its final play form). > > > >Any suggestions? Also is the piece you're suggesting still available or out > >of print? > > (It seems almost everything is out of print!) See if you can find > collecitons of Lucius Shepard's (sp?) short stories. He's done some > wonderful things with U.S military in Latin America. (That is, it's the > stories that are wonderful.) > > Neil > > -- > NeilRest@enteract.com > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 13:00:11 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/2001 11:12:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET writes: << For heaven's sake, where did you get the idea that I believe the south should be wiped off the face of the earth? >> >From an earlier post where you refered to it as a canker. <<>> Whose to say I haven't? Christine -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:29:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Amy Harlib Subject: Re: Califia-Rice: Vasquez MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live in NYC and have no clue about Canada's policies about banning. Personally------I am totally in favor of 1st amendment unlimited free speech and I love to agree to disagree so to speak with the widest variety of views! Amy > Thanks for your response, Amy; Now I a'm abit puzzled.. I had > mentioned that Pat Califia's books were banned in Canada. Sharon > corrects me by explaining that Canada does not ban books they simply > don't allow them to enter the country, and if sneaked in, one would be > supposedly ceriminally prsecured. Now what is the difference between > banning a book and not allowing to be brought into the country? If ms > Califia moved to Canada and tried to publish there would she be allowed > to publish the same material that Canada won't aloow to enter. Also what > about such feminist writer such as Cecilia Tan, Lucy Taylor, Poppy Z > Brite, Amarantha Knight, Red Jordan Arobateau and the incendiary > feminist Kate Millet... aare Canadian allowed to read them? > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 12:40:36 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jennifer H Subject: feminist male SF writers In-Reply-To: <01b101c08250$3ead1920$0c334f0c@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" also John Barnes (author of _A Million Open Doors_) >Yes! deLint qualifies also Dave Duncan, Samuel Delany, Jack Vance, James >Schmitz (he was doing feisty women back in the 50s!), David Brin , Greg >Bear, Greg Benford, John Varley, George R. R. Martin , Michael Moorcock, >Michael Swanwick, Raymond Feist in collaboration with Janny Wurts, Walter >John Williams, William Gibson, Bruce Sterling------hows that for starters! >Amy > >Also, are there any feminist MALE sci-fi writers? Does >> Charles DeLint qualify?? >> -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:23:33 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Conservative Feminism (was: Re: Ashcroft) >From: John Vazquez >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] ashcroft >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >In-Reply-To: Neil Rest 's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2001 > 01:07:11 -0600 >Those that insist that they are feminist conservatives (progressive >regessives) cannot be reasoned with; they seem to be living in a >"fantasy" world; forgive the pun. Your problem is that you don't understand the meaning of the word "conservative." Historically, modern Conservatism is the direct descendent of Classical Liberalism. Classical Liberals or Modern Conservatives believe that the rights of the individual are more important than society. Hence, Modern Conservatives believe that states, who are closer to the people, have rights that the federal government frequently tries to trample. Modern Conservatives thus champion individual liberty and states' rights. I won't try to define Modern Liberalism here (you modern liberals can do that), but I personally believe that Modern Liberals tend to defend the rights or needs of society over and above that of individuals. Hence, Modern Liberals want to restrict free speech if that speech hurts someone's feelings or harms society, whereas Modern Conservatives (or Classical Liberals) champion free speech rights even if that speech hurts someone's feelings or harms society because harm to the individual and the individual's freedom is more severe and more serious than harm to society or government. The Classical Liberal/Modern Conservative believes that government governs best that governs least, whereas Modern Liberals tend to take the approach that government governs best that tells people how to speak and how to act. Modern Liberals want to support NOW's ideas about abortion rights, etc., whereas Classical Liberals/Modern Conservatives champion the individual's right to oppose abortion on demand on the theory that unborn children are individual citizens too. Conservative feminists believe that unborn female children and unborn male children have the same rights that born people have. Modern Liberals believe unborn children have no rights. While Modern Liberals claim to champion women's rights, by this they don't mean that they champion the rights of unborn female children. Modern Conservatives/Classical Liberals support the rights of all people, born and unborn, who have the "right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." To kill an unborn child is to the deny that child these rights. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:03:09 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Gwen Veazey Subject: "Feminist" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C083BB.444B9160" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C083BB.444B9160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In regard to the term "feminist:" Does anyone remember the adjectives = spoken by Gloria Steinem (I think) in the nineties to differentiate = between us "original" feminists and persons with Cindy's worldview? = Something along the lines of "egalitarian feminists" versus = "middle-of-the-road feminists" but I can't recall the exact words. It = seemed a nice idea, to allow folks to be more clear. - Gwen PS: I'm from the South! I was sort of offended by the remark that my = place of residence is a tumor on the face of the earth! ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C083BB.444B9160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In regard to the term "feminist:"  Does anyone = remember=20 the adjectives spoken by Gloria Steinem (I think) in the nineties = to=20 differentiate between us "original" feminists and persons with Cindy's=20 worldview?  Something along the lines of "egalitarian feminists" = versus=20 "middle-of-the-road feminists" but I can't recall the exact=20 words.   It seemed a nice idea, to allow folks to be more = clear.
 
 - Gwen
PS:  I'm from the South!  I was sort=20 of offended by the remark that my place of residence is a tumor on = the face=20 of the earth!
------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C083BB.444B9160-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:50:14 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) >From: John Vazquez >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] ashcroft >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >In-Reply-To: Christine Ethier 's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2001 > 10:11:45 EST >For heaven's sake, where did you get the idea that I believe the south >should be wiped off the face of the earth? I live in Georgia, but am >ashamed of my fellow Georgians lack of tolerance and bigotry. You say >one never wins an argument by insulting the opposite side; well that >assumes the other side is grounded in present reality, not still living >in the civil war days or in their "fantasy" (excuse the pun. Also, >they insult african americans by flying the racist confedrate flag over >public buidings; go preach to them about not insulting others. I also live in Georgia and am quite proud of the Georgia Flag, which stands for states' rights and Southern history and Southern pride. I am not ashamed to be a Southerner. I also disapprove of intolerance and bigotry, but the Georgia Flag thankfully stands for tolerance and freedom. Do you think the American Flag stands for intolerance and bigotry simply because some Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson who owned slaves flew the American Flag? Just as the American Flag stands for freedom despite slavery, so the Georgia Flag with the Confederate emblem stands for freedom despite slavery. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 12:08:39 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: <16707-3A6AA1C9-2227@storefull-166.iap.bryant.webtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'll weigh in here. I agree that you cannot "reasono with" people who claim to be one thing or another. But not because they claim an identity that makes no sense. But because people have their own definitions for what they mean by particular terms. Conservative does not mean the same thing to all people; nor does feminist. And while there are probably a certain number of things that most people who call themselves "feminist" would agree on, I wouldn't want to bet about what they are. So conservative feminist is an oxymoron according to the way you define it. But not according to the way that self-identified conservative feminists define it. It's not helpful to say "your definition is wrong." It's more helpful to say, "what is your definition of feminist?" and "where do our definitions of feminism meet?" and THEN "how does this apply to science fiction & literature?" laura q On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, John Vazquez wrote: > Those that insist that they are feminist conservatives (progressive > regessives) cannot be reasoned with; they seem to be living in a > "fantasy" world; forgive the pun. > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:14:14 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Margaret Poore Subject: Re: New insights in flames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I mostly just read this list since I often don't know enough to comment but find the discussions interesting. I do find the human tendency to make personal attacks when discussing issues deplorable. I have ceased following several discussions on message boards and lists when one or two people start flaming each other and then everyone else gets drawn into the conflagration and nastiness prevails. Seems like this discussion has not quite gotten to the nastiness-prevailing stage, and perhaps it never will. I must say, however, that the flaming provoked a couple of excellent posts explaining an underlying cause of the Civil War, and describing the stances of Liberalism and Conservatism. I do enjoy new insights into old concepts so I offer my thanks to those involved.......and hope that in the future civility will prevail;-) Margaret -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:14:42 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: ashcroft In-Reply-To: <8d.1538838.279c5774@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:17 AM 1/21/01 EST, Christine Ethier wrote: ><< Sorry, "states' rights" does not mean that my state can pass a law allowing > its residents to go into your state and perform kidnappings, apologists > notwithstanding. ("fugitive slave laws") > >> > Never said it did. Was just referring to a decentralized government. >That's all. > >Geez. I did not mean to suggest that you did. I apologize for any such suggestion. However, the states which seceeded to form the Confederacy DID make precisely that claim, and were able to pressure it through the Supreme Court in 1857, leading to the founding and instant success of the Republican Party. Neil -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 12:22:55 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: chill out Comments: To: feministsf@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII okay y'all. the conversation (with a few exceptional exceptions, thanks to the other laura) has been degenerating into "you said" "i did not" and bickering. i am now warning people: provide substantive commentary that is likely to be of interest to 200+ people. if you must respond to something out of anger then do it OFF LIST! this is the process: after this message goes out, the next non-substantive comment i see gets a personal reminder from me; then removal from the list (or if i can figure out a way to keep them on the list but not let them post i'll do that). responding to people who are frustrated, as to what they can do to get this back on topic: (1) post a message that is on topic and get a new thread started that is more interesting to you; and (2) delete, delete, delete; and (3) trust that this will shortly die down now that people are getting so rude that they're crossing boundaries; and (4) subscribe to feministsf-lit, where off-topic discussion is not allowed. Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:26:54 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: request In-Reply-To: <3A6B248E.51CB0650@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:03 AM 1/21/01 -0800, Phoebe Reeves wrote: >Thanks, Neil. I love Shepard's work; unfortunately, the group I am working with >is not familiar with him and they are looking for more of a mass recognition >appeal writer's work in order to help draw audience. Someone like Allende or >Esquivel or Vonnegut who has done a blockbuster that nearly anyone would >recognize (film or book, I mean.) Vonnegut's short story _Harrison Bergeron_ comes to mind, but the constraint of "big name author" is a serious constraint. (Not unreasonable if you want the produciton to break even, but tight nonetheless.) FWIW, I have found the Lucius Shepard collection I was thnking of. It's _The Jaguar Hunter_. Neil >> >I am looking for a short short or short story magic realism piece by a well >> >known magical realism writer that would be suitable to be adapted for the >> >stage (I'm talking about something that would run about 20 minutes long in >> >its final play form). >> > >> >Any suggestions? Also is the piece you're suggesting still available or out >> >of print? >> >> (It seems almost everything is out of print!) See if you can find >> collecitons of Lucius Shepard's (sp?) short stories. He's done some >> wonderful things with U.S military in Latin America. (That is, it's the >> stories that are wonderful.) >> -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:29:31 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/2001 3:17:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, NeilRest@ENTERACT.COM writes: << However, the states which seceeded to form the Confederacy DID make precisely that claim, and were able to pressure it through the Supreme Court in 1857, leading to the founding and instant success of the Republican Party. Neil >> And further according to the World Book Encyclopdeia "The Republican Party grew out of a series of antislavery meetsing held throughout the North to protest the Kansas-Nebraska Bill" So Republicans were founded in oppposition to slavery. But Neil does have the year wrong it was in July 6, 1854 that the party took the Republican name. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:31:29 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Kara Dalkey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone read anything by Kara Dalkey? I have just finished her novel _The Nightengale_ was just wondering if anyone had read any of her other novels. Christine -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:46:45 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Conservative Feminism (was: Re: Ashcroft) In-Reply-To: <009F673E.32A06500.7@dragon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:23 PM 1/21/01 -0500, Cindy Smith wrote: >>Those that insist that they are feminist conservatives (progressive >>regessives) cannot be reasoned with; they seem to be living in a >>"fantasy" world; forgive the pun. > >Your problem is that you don't understand the meaning of the word >"conservative." Historically, modern Conservatism is the direct >descendent of Classical Liberalism. Classical Liberals or Modern >Conservatives believe that the rights of the individual are more >important than society. Hence, Modern Conservatives believe that >states, who are closer to the people, have rights that the federal >government frequently tries to trample. Modern Conservatives thus >champion individual liberty and states' rights. This sounds like (repeat, "sounds like"; not "is") you're too narrowly read and too credulous. Modern "Conservatism" is the result of a long, premeditated propaganda campaign to release wealth, individual or corporate, from any social obligation or control, particuarly those enforced by government. Please read what Adam Smith said on the necessity of government control. (Again, not what other people assure you he said, or meant, but the original.) > I won't try to define >Modern Liberalism here (you modern liberals can do that), but I >personally believe that Modern Liberals tend to defend the rights or >needs of society over and above that of individuals. This pair of sentences smells contradictory. > Hence, Modern >Liberals want to restrict free speech if that speech hurts someone's >feelings or harms society, One of the oldest rhetorical dodges is to force your own definition of your opponent onto the discussion. If you want some of the Olin or Sacife money the Heritage Foundation throws around, you're a contender. If you're seriously considering positions and issues, this assertion is not a legitimate entry in the conversation. > whereas Modern Conservatives (or Classical >Liberals) champion free speech rights even if that speech hurts >someone's feelings or harms society because harm to the individual and >the individual's freedom is more severe and more serious than harm to >society or government. The Classical Liberal/Modern Conservative >believes that government governs best that governs least, whereas >Modern Liberals tend to take the approach that government governs best >that tells people how to speak and how to act. My last comment applies even more to this sophistry. > Modern Liberals want >to support NOW's ideas about abortion rights, etc., whereas >Classical Liberals/Modern Conservatives champion the individual's >right to oppose abortion on demand on the theory that unborn children >are individual citizens too. Finally you have said something demonstrably false. The notion that a fertilized egg or an embryo is "an unborn child" is a very recent invention, in reaction (that's why "Reactionary" is a more accurate term for the political tendency you are defending) to modern circumstances permitting more liberation of women. It is centuries newer than the "Classical Liberalism" you are repeating someone else's presentation of. > Conservative feminists believe that >unborn female children and unborn male children have the same rights >that born people have. Calling a single cell, or a small cluster of cells a "child" is so contrary to common sense that to do it as a matter of course strongly suggests that you are in fact referring to an emotional stance rather than a reasoned position. Then again, Phyllis Schlafly has a very succssful career travelling all over the country teling women they should stay home and not have careers. > Modern Liberals believe unborn children have >no rights. While Modern Liberals claim to champion women's rights, by >this they don't mean that they champion the rights of unborn female >children. Modern Conservatives/Classical Liberals support the rights >of all people, born and unborn, who have the "right to life, liberty, >and the pursuit of happiness." To kill an unborn child is to the deny >that child these rights. (left as an exercise for the reader) Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:49:36 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) In-Reply-To: Cindy Smith 's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:50:14 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cindy, the confederate flag stands for a bunch of seditionists that tried to overthrow the US it insults afican americans and if right wingers are so enamored of a defeated flag that represents traitors to our union, then wear it on your license plate put it in a museum or in your back yard , but don,t force it on us african americans by flying it over public buildings. What would people say if Germany insisted on flying the swastika over their public buildings? John -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:51:17 -0600 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Neil Rest Subject: Re: Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) In-Reply-To: <009F6741.ED072D40.3@dragon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:50 PM 1/21/01 -0500, Cindy Smith wrote: > >I also live in Georgia and am quite proud of the Georgia Flag, which >stands for states' rights and Southern history and Southern pride. I >am not ashamed to be a Southerner. I also disapprove of intolerance >and bigotry, but the Georgia Flag thankfully stands for tolerance and >freedom. Do you think the American Flag stands for intolerance and >bigotry simply because some Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson who >owned slaves flew the American Flag? > >Just as the American Flag stands for freedom despite slavery, so the >Georgia Flag with the Confederate emblem stands for freedom despite >slavery. > Cindy, for God's sake please read something on your own, instead of people telling you what makes you feel good and right. The Confederate battle flag was added to the Groggia state flag in 1956, in the heat of school desegregation, one week after the creation of the federal commission (or committee or whatever it was called) which would organize the commemoration of the centennary of the Civil War. It is there in order to be racist and pro-slavery. Before you say "is not!", or "you are too!", go to the library and verify or refute my assertions on your own, from primary meterials. FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF. Neil Rest -- NeilRest@enteract.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:59:58 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Definitions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From The American Heritage Dictionary: Feminism: 1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. 2. The movement organized around this belief. Conservative: 1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change. 2. Traditional or restrained in style: "a conservative dark suit." 3. Moderate; cautious: "a conservative estimate." 4. a. Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism. b. Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement. 5. Conservative Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada. 6. Conservative Of or adhering to Conservative Judaism. 7. Tending to conserve; preservative: "the conservative use of natural resources." Liberal: 1. a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism. d. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States. 2. a. Tending to give freely; generous: "a liberal benefactor." b. Generous in amount; ample: "a liberal serving of potatoes." 3. Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: "a liberal translation." 4. Of, relating to, or based on the traditional arts and sciences of a college or university curriculum: "a liberal education." 5. a. Archaic Permissible or appropriate for a person of free birth; befitting a lady or gentleman. b. Obsolete Morally unrestrained; licentious -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:02:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Conservative Feminism (was: Re: Ashcroft) In-Reply-To: Cindy Smith 's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:23:33 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Cindy, contrary to what you refer to as my lack of understanding, I am well aware that todays liberalism is tomorrows conservativism. Also There is no such thing as an unborn child with personhood. that is a bit of transparent sophistry used by the anti-choice fringe of the lunatic wing of conservatists. It's like saying that non-existant persons have equal rights. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:07:06 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Margaret Poore Subject: Re: Unborn Conservative Feminists.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seems like the problem with arguing that each individual's rights rise above the rights of society or government is that every member of society is also an individual. "Society" and "government" are abstract concepts; only individuals have concrete reality. So the core issue may be in how you choose to deal with the conflict that arises when one person's interests or rights interfere with those of another. Why does Conservativism believe it okay for the self-proclaimed "right-to-lifer" to deny the rights of the "right-to-chooser" to make decisions about her own body? Why does Conservativism believe that the rights of a non-sentient fetus supersede the rights of the fully developed human consciousness of a physically adult woman? What about when my right to define an unborn fetus as not-yet-human is in direct conflict with your right to define it otherwise? We humans hold many different conflicting beliefs that cause all sorts of suffering by living beings, ourselves and other terrestrial creatures as we ll. Does the human need to find a cure for AIDS supersede the right to life of monkeys and chimps in research laboratories? How about the killing of animals to meet the human need for warmth? or food? Some individuals believe that animals also have the right to life. This has caused all sorts of problems and human suffering in societies which give monkeys and cattle the right to life under all circumstances. In those societies the individual cow or monkey has as much right to life as a human, based on a religious belief system. In America, our Constitution makes it illegal to make laws based on a particular religion's belief system. It seems to me that Conservatives who wish to deny a woman's right to choose are basing their argument on their religious belief that human life begins at conception (or is it implantation?). They have no more right to pass laws about what I can do with my body than the Catholics have the right to pass laws that we all must abstain from meat on Fridays. Margaret (hoping this is of some interest to the 200+ people on the list) -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 13:00:31 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Sandy Candioglos Subject: Re: Kara Dalkey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Has anyone read anything by Kara Dalkey? I have just finished her novel _The > Nightengale_ was just wondering if anyone had read any of her other novels. > > Christine What did you think of it? I've wanted to get ahold of a copy, but haven't actually sat down and searched for it, yet; I've read all the other "adult fairy tale series" books (I'm in the middle of the newest one, White as Snow, by Tanith Lee), and have enjoyed them all, but I'm not as familiar with the fairy tale that Dalkey's book is based on. -Sandy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:00:39 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Pat Subject: Re: Conservative Feminism (was: Re: Ashcroft) In-Reply-To: <009F673E.32A06500.7@dragon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The problem with going from the rights of the individual to the rights of the states - "because they're closer to the individual" is that the reason for it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. A lot of times the state governments have been more willing to trample on individual rights than the federal government. Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews@unm.edu Nullus prandium gratituum -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 13:30:38 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Reeves Subject: Re: request MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ah, Neil, don't I know it... (sigh) Harrison Bergeron was the piece everyone wanted to do; it was my vote to get something more original and (this may sound like a strange word choice here) more beautiful. I'm still hoping to find it despite the big name author constraint since one of the main goals of the production is to break even. And more, ideally... One of my favorite pieces by Lucius Shepard and Robert Frazier is "The All-Consuming"--God, what a great piece! Horror, magic realism, anima/animus, multicultural, raw and refined, and about a billion other things. The basic threadline for anyone who might be interested is can you know something any better than eating it completely? (At least that is one of the threads...) I highly recommend this one. I will find The Jaguar Hunter somewhere for sure. Thanks. Phoebe Neil Rest wrote: > At 10:03 AM 1/21/01 -0800, Phoebe Reeves wrote: > >Thanks, Neil. I love Shepard's work; unfortunately, the group I am > working with > >is not familiar with him and they are looking for more of a mass recognition > >appeal writer's work in order to help draw audience. Someone like Allende or > >Esquivel or Vonnegut who has done a blockbuster that nearly anyone would > >recognize (film or book, I mean.) > > Vonnegut's short story _Harrison Bergeron_ comes to mind, but the > constraint of "big name author" is a serious constraint. (Not unreasonable > if you want the produciton to break even, but tight nonetheless.) > > FWIW, I have found the Lucius Shepard collection I was thnking of. It's > _The Jaguar Hunter_. > > Neil -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:49:22 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) >From: John Vazquez >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >In-Reply-To: Cindy Smith 's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2001 > 14:50:14 -0500 >Cindy, the confederate flag stands for a bunch of seditionists that >tried to overthrow the US it insults afican americans and if right >wingers are so enamored of a defeated flag that represents traitors to >our union, then wear it on your license plate put it in a museum or in >your back yard , but don,t force it on us african americans by flying it >over public buildings. What would people say if Germany insisted on >flying the swastika over their public buildings? John The South wanted to be left alone; the North declared war on the South to preserve the union, according to Lincoln, not free the slaves per se. Abraham Lincoln admitted in a letter that waging war on the South was unConstitutional, but he did it anyway because he thought preserving the union was of paramount importance. Lincoln wrote that, if to preserve the union, he had to enslave every black person, then he would have enslaved every black person to preserve the union, but as it happened, he freed the slaves instead because freeing the slaves was politically expedient. The Confederacy did not try to overthrow the U.S., it simply tried to form its own union. My Southern ancestors were not traitors to the union, they fought and died defending what they thought was right, states' rights. I have ancestors who tracked and caught runaway slaves, and I also have ancestors who were conductors on the Underground Railroad. One cannot choose one's ancestors. The Confederate Flag, contrary to your opinion, does not stand for slavery, it stands for states' rights. Many historians believe that, had the South won the war, slavery would have died out on its own. As it happened, Lincoln chose the politically expedient course of freeing all the slaves, but he didn't do so for altruistic reasons. I am vehemently opposed to slavery, and I support equal rights for all people regardless of the color of their skin, and I support the Georgia Flag. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:52:48 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Conservative Feminism (was: Re: Ashcroft) Neil Rest, For someone who accuses me of falsely defining Modern Liberalism, you certain did a fine job of falsely defining Modern Conservatism, i.e., Classical Liberalism. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:57:26 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) >From: Neil Rest >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >In-Reply-To: <009F6741.ED072D40.3@dragon.com> >At 02:50 PM 1/21/01 -0500, Cindy Smith wrote: >>I also live in Georgia and am quite proud of the Georgia Flag, which >>stands for states' rights and Southern history and Southern pride. I >>am not ashamed to be a Southerner. I also disapprove of intolerance >>and bigotry, but the Georgia Flag thankfully stands for tolerance and >>freedom. Do you think the American Flag stands for intolerance and >>bigotry simply because some Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson who >>owned slaves flew the American Flag? >>Just as the American Flag stands for freedom despite slavery, so the >>Georgia Flag with the Confederate emblem stands for freedom despite >>slavery. >Cindy, for God's sake please read something on your own, instead of people >telling you what makes you feel good and right. >The Confederate battle flag was added to the Groggia state flag in 1956, in >the heat of school desegregation, one week after the creation of the >federal commission (or committee or whatever it was called) which would >organize the commemoration of the centennary of the Civil War. >It is there in order to be racist and pro-slavery. Before you say "is >not!", or "you are too!", go to the library and verify or refute my >assertions on your own, from primary meterials. FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF. I have read the newspapers of the day, and you may be interested to know that the newspapers of the day spoke of the Confederate emblem as symbolizing Southern pride and Southern heritage. If what you say is correct, then surely the newspapers of the day would have discussed and present arguments about the new Georgia Flag being a symbol of slavery and discrimination, but there are no such articles during the period. Instead, articles in newspapers of the period discussed states' rights, Southern pride and Southern heritage. If you think you are right, then produce the articles that say what you claim they say. I advise you that the information you seek is not there. >Neil Rest >NeilRest@enteract.com Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:00:44 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Conservative Feminism (was: Re: Ashcroft) John Vazquez, Human life begins at conception. Therefore, conceived unborn children are human beings, and aborting such human beings constitutes murder. Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:50:26 -0500 Reply-To: Rebecca Riall Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Rebecca Riall Subject: Defining conservatism/liberalism In-Reply-To: <009F673E.32A06500.7@dragon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Cindy Smith wrote: > Hence, Modern Conservatives believe that > states, who are closer to the people, have rights that the federal > government frequently tries to trample. Modern Conservatives thus > champion individual liberty and states' rights. Not any conservative I've met -- as a few examples, conservatives oppose definition of marriage to include homosexual relationships, thus championing restriction of a person's right; they oppose the rights of same-sex couples to adopt children, again championing restriction of an individual's freedom to establish a family as she or he sees fit. They place both federal control (the BIA, which notably acts in the interest of mining and energy corporations) AND state's "rights" over the rights of self-rule of indigenous peoples living within those states (including self-government, self-policing, freedom of religion, freedom of trade, and in some cases even definition of "Indian"ness, since both fed/state government selectively defines which tribes to recognize). People who identify as conservatives do not, unlike yourself, always claim any form of feminism -- look at the Southern Baptists who believe a woman is by definition subservient to a man, thus restricting her freedom on every possible level. Conservatives _do_ tend to put corporate rights over federal rights. While I suppose being able to pollute Earth, steal resources from First Nations peoples here and abroad, and deposit toxins near residential (and usually poor communities), ad nauseum, IS a type of freedom...it is most certainly not freedom for the individual! In fact, it impinges on the freedom of the individual in obvious ways. [Note: I'm using "conservative" in the sense of a modern individual who self-identifies as conservative, the most universally-agreed-upon definition I can think of.] > needs of society over and above that of individuals. Hence, Modern > Liberals want to restrict free speech if that speech hurts someone's > feelings or harms society, whereas Modern Conservatives (or Classical > Liberals) champion free speech rights even if that speech hurts > someone's feelings or harms society because harm to the individual Then why are liberal groups like the ACLU the standard champions of free speech -- even the most racist, bigotted of speech? It tends to be conservatives who OPPOSE free speech, especially that which endorses counter-traditional (and, by conservatives' definition, anti-social) religions. At the local level, I've seen countless conservative school boards and county governments fight the right of non-Judeo-Christian students to wear emblems of their religions. At the federal level, conservatives tend to favor heavy and unjustified monitoring of activist groups, essentially limiting their freedom of speech and freedom to organize. Lately both self-defined liberals and self-defined conservatives are gung ho about censorship (or at least a swat on the wrist) for the movie industry. This does not make conservatives default champions of free speech. > that tells people how to speak and how to act. Modern Liberals want > to support NOW's ideas about abortion rights, etc., whereas > Classical Liberals/Modern Conservatives champion the individual's > right to oppose abortion on demand on the theory that unborn children > are individual citizens too. Few, if any, liberals will argue the individual's right to oppose abortion. I fully support an individual's right to oppose anything she or he wishes. However, the right to oppose abortion does NOT equate with the right to outlaw abortion or impede a lawful abortion. Nor should the right to oppose something follow only from "the theory that unborn children are individual citizens too" or some other justification. The right to oppose government laws exists in and for itself. In short...conservatives tend to be the ones to restrict individual freedom, instead favoring the freedom of government (both state and, when they agree with it, federal law) and corporations. Rebecca Riall --------------------------------------------------------- http://php.indiana.edu/~rlriall/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:05:27 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Unborn Conservative Feminists.... Margaret, Do you agree with many insurance companies that newborn children are not human beings until they are two or three weeks old? Thus, insurance companies refuse to pay for extraordinary measures to save the lives of newborn children. If you believe that newborns are human beings, even though they can't talk or reason or build a fire, then when do you believe they become human beings? At birth? At 9 months in the womb? Do you believe it's okay to abort a fetus at 9 months in the womb? At 8 months? At 7 months? At 6 months? Is there any point at which a fetus is in the womb that you believe abortion is wrong? and why? Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 14:23:05 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Phoebe Reeves Subject: Re: Unborn Conservative Feminists.... MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For what it's worth, brain activity doesn't start until seven months... A certain amount of this discussion is quite interesting; unfortunately the barbs are beginning to dominate and make it seem like a schoolyard brawl. If people are that upset with each other's opinions to the point where they can't agree to disagree, could they at least one upsman each other in one-to-one emails and not on the list? A suggestion made in light of Laura's very well-put list etiquette and explanation emails... Phoebe Cindy Smith wrote: > Margaret, > > Do you agree with many insurance companies that newborn children are > not human beings until they are two or three weeks old? Thus, insurance > companies refuse to pay for extraordinary measures to save the lives of > newborn children. If you believe that newborns are human beings, even > though they can't talk or reason or build a fire, then when do you believe > they become human beings? At birth? At 9 months in the womb? Do you > believe it's okay to abort a fetus at 9 months in the womb? At 8 months? > At 7 months? At 6 months? Is there any point at which a fetus is in the > womb that you believe abortion is wrong? and why? > > Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter > GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia > cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion > cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off > cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:21:43 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Unborn Conservative Feminists.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What SF authors and books do you enjoy, Cindy? Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:25:37 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: The other list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started to ask before, then lost the message: What is the subscription info for the other list? I used to belong on an old Juno account, but reached a point where none of them worked, and I lost track of it all in subsequent preoccupations. I'd like to get back there as well as stay here. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:44:35 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: ashcroft - LONG POST In-Reply-To: <21.659ebd3.279c5e94@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/21/01 8:47 AM, Christine Ethier at EthierCN@AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/2001 8:04:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, > ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM writes: > > << they argue that the Civil War had nothing to do > with slavery per se', but about a larger issue: that of keeping the right > of self-determination and control at the more local level. >> > > I never said that. I said slavery was a large issue but not the only > one. I never said slavery was right, in fact I think it was and is wrong and > an horrible event. > Hmmm. It appears I've propagated a misunderstanding. I never meant to call you racist or imply that you supported slavery. I'm sorry if it came across that way to you. I am not referring to all educated conservatives in this post. I am referring to the political leadership on the right, in particular the far right. Our political system contains a continuum. I have some important differences with those on the left, as regards some important economic issues, myself. > To call a person a "racist" simply because he/she voices an opinion shows > narrow mindness, to be insulted because one believes that a person can be > both a conservative and a feminist shows mean spiritness and a lack of > understanding/open mindess. The funny things is, shouldn't discussions be > about open mindess and understanding? And I never said that someone couldn't be conservative and feminist; I certainly believe there's room for debate and different perspectives in this regard. I hope you'll extend me the courtesy of not putting words in my mouth either. OK? -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 15:48:58 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Kara Dalkey In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/21/01 1:31 PM, Christine Ethier at EthierCN@AOL.COM wrote: > Has anyone read anything by Kara Dalkey? I have just finished her novel _The > Nightengale_ was just wondering if anyone had read any of her other novels. I love Kara Dalkey's work! My favorite is (dang it; I disremember the name; Steel Rose? set in Pennsylvania), but Crystal Sage is also good -- particularly if you've read the first book. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:23:38 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Cindy Smith Subject: Re: Books >From: MX%"haghome@BANET.NET" "Frances" 21-JAN-2001 17:33:21.82 >To: MX%"FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU" >Subj: Re: [*FSFFU*] Unborn Conservative Feminists.... >Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:21:43 -0500 >Reply-To: Frances >Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > >From: Frances >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Unborn Conservative Feminists.... >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >What SF authors and books do you enjoy, Cindy? I like Leigh Brackett, particularly _The Long Tomorrow_. I also like Ursula K. LeGuin, particularly _The Left Hand of Darkness_. I like Walter M. Miller's _A Canticle for Leibowitz_. I like Marion Zimmer Bradley, particularly the Darkover series. I like Tanith Lee. I very much enjoy Madeleine L'Engle, especially _A Wrinkle in Time_ and various sequels. I like Diane Duane, Diane Carey, J.C. Fontana, James Tiptree, Jr. (the female author's real name escapes me at the moment), especially _Radio Free Albamuth_ and other works. I like Isaac Asimov, particularly the Foundation series and any robot stories; I think the Three Laws of Robotics are based on or similar to the Ten Commandments. Of course, I'm especially fond of the Bible, particularly women's tales in the Bible, especially Genesis. I'm very fond of references to a feminine God in the Bible (ask me for chapters and verses another time). I like reading commentaries on the Bible, especially the Jerome Biblical Commentary but others as well. I like reading Augustine's _Confessions_ and _City of God_. I like Thomas Aquinas's _Summa Theologica_ and _Summa Contra Gentiles_. I like Teresa of Avila's _Interior Castle_. I like Julian of Norwich's _Showings_. I like Catherine of Sienna. I'm particularly fond of Little Saint Therese of the Child Jesus and her _Story of a Soul_. Note that Saint Teresa of Avila and Saint Catherine of Sienna and Little Saint Therese of the Child Jesus are all Doctors of the Church. I like Andre Norton (any of her stories). I like J.A. Lawrence (the wife of James Blish), and I also like James Blish. Those are just a few of the authors I like that come to mine. Who do you like to read? >Frances Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:35:00 -0500 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: John Vazquez Subject: Re: Unborn Conservative Feminists.... In-Reply-To: Cindy Smith 's message of Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:05:27 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Only in case of rape or incest un like your freakish hreo Ascroft. People like him beleve that the moment tou give into SATAN'S temptation to commit the horrendous sin/crime of planned parenthood , you're going to hell. THis seems to be your idea of feminism -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:34:47 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Kara Dalkey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/2001 4:08:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, scandiog@YAHOO.COM writes: << What did you think of it? I've wanted to get ahold of a copy, but haven't actually sat down and searched for it, yet; I've read all the other "adult fairy tale series" books (I'm in the middle of the newest one, White as Snow, by Tanith Lee), and have enjoyed them all, but I'm not as familiar with the fairy tale that Dalkey's book is based on. -Sandy >> Its based on H.C. Anderson's The Nightengale. The story was one of his more popular ones so any collection of his works would have it. I thought it was pretty good, excellent in fact. Dalkey makes changes, as do all the books in the series, but the major one is changing the country from China (in the orignal) to Japan. It does focus alot on the role of women in society. The main character is caught between socital rules, her own desires, and what her ancestors spirits want to use her for (the killing of a certain powerful family). I also like for disregarding the fact that if you are familar with Anderson's tale you know the ending, Dalkely throws in some nice surprises at the end. How do you like Lee's White as Sin? I ordered it though Sci-Fi Book Clun? Christine -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 18:38:51 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: ashcroft - LONG POST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/2001 5:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, ljm@DIGITALNOIR.COM writes: << And I never said that someone couldn't be conservative and feminist; I certainly believe there's room for debate and different perspectives in this regard. I hope you'll extend me the courtesy of not putting words in my mouth either. OK? >> Sorry. It wasn't intended to be directed at you. Yours was just at the end of a long post. And you were not the one who called me Racist. Again my apolgies. Christine -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:43:23 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Unborn Conservative Feminists.... In-Reply-To: <009F6754.D0FC3E20.4@dragon.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/21/01 3:05 PM, Cindy Smith at cms@DRAGON.COM wrote: > Margaret, > > Do you agree with many insurance companies that newborn children are > not human beings until they are two or three weeks old? Thus, insurance > companies refuse to pay for extraordinary measures to save the lives of > newborn children. If you believe that newborns are human beings, even > though they can't talk or reason or build a fire, then when do you believe > they become human beings? At birth? At 9 months in the womb? Do you > believe it's okay to abort a fetus at 9 months in the womb? At 8 months? > At 7 months? At 6 months? Is there any point at which a fetus is in the > womb that you believe abortion is wrong? and why? I think this is a fair question, Cindy, and I'll take a shot at it. While I don't agree with the position that those opposed to abortion take with regard to when human life truly begins, I can respect the underlying motivation for their views. I too believe life is precious and should be nurtured. There is an important moral question in choosing to end the life, or potential for a human life, of an unborn fetus for the sake of the mother. Once a child is born, we look at that child and see the tremendous potential unfolding in him or her, and it's a chilling thought to think, what if I/she/whoever decided to end the life of that child, before it ever came into the world? It's not a trivial question. Basically, I am a pro-choicer, but not an absolutist pro-choicer. I depart from the officially defined feminist position in this regard -- though not by a lot. In other words, I believe there comes a point during pregnancy in which the rights of the fetus should come into consideration, and that that point comes sometime before birth -- but nowhere near conception or implantation. For me, the trigger is the initiation of thought (which, as Phoebe says, appears to be around seven months into the pregnancy). More than anything else, our capacity for thought is what defines us as human. Before that point, to my way of thinking, while the fetus has potential to become human -- while it is undeniably living -- it is not yet human in the most fundamental sense. After that point, I believe that the fetus is in fact a human life, and the state must consider the rights of the fetus, not simply the rights of the mother. Before that point, I believe that the mother's rights and knowledge of her own situation and her capability to bear and potentially raise a child are, and must be, paramount. Here's why. (1) Historically, one in three women died as a result of pregnancy or childbirth. Nowadays, if you live in the developed world, your chances of survival are much better: iirc the maternal mortality rate is around 7% (somebody, please correct me if I'm misremembering -- but I do know it's not a trivial percentage). I don't believe anyone should be forced to undergo a procedure that puts her life at risk, without her consent. (2) It's convenient and simple to reduce pregnancy to "by having sex [with a man] a woman is consenting to have a baby," and thus gets what she deserves, but that does not reflect reality. Most women grow up in societies that barely acknowledge their rights distinct from their role as mothers and wives, and the notion that they have a right to say no to a man when he demands sex simply does not appear on their radar. (Having lived in Kenya as a Peace Corps volunteer -- and watching helplessly as my high school classes went from 50-50 girls to boys, to maybe 10% girls or less, due to pregnancy -- I can state this with authority.) (3) Even in our own country, the problem of men not paying child support or acknowledging their responsibility for their paternity is endemic. A woman's standard of living drops by over a third when she divorces; a man's goes up by over 40% (again, if I recall the numbers correctly). There's an issue of fair play, here. By insisting that "a woman must take the responsibility to live with the consequences of her actions," without any real way (or even desire) of also forcing men to be responsible for the children they father, this argument simply becomes a way to delegate all the dirty-work of perpetuating the species to the woman while the man has all the freedom and power to do as he pleases, without accountability. (4) I don't believe that the primary function in human society of sex is simply procreation. It _results_ in reproduction -- otherwise we wouldn't survive as a species -- but it serves many other purposes as well, good and bad. Like any other human interaction, sex has the potential to be a means to enjoy another human being, a way to avoid one's feelings, a way to explore one's connection to the world, or a form of abuse. I believe its primary ideal function is as a highly intimate and pleasurable form of social bonding. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 16:47:47 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Unborn Conservative Feminists.... In-Reply-To: <48.10696fac.279ca97a@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/21/01 2:07 PM, Margaret Poore at MNightSkyP@AOL.COM wrote: > Seems like the problem with arguing that each individual's rights rise above > the rights of society or government is that every member of society is also > an individual. "Society" and "government" are abstract concepts; only > individuals have concrete reality. Well put! An interesting post, Margaret. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:15:23 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cindy wrote: >I'm especially fond of the Bible, particularly women's tales in the Bible...I'm very fond of references to a feminine God in the Bible Do you like Suzette Haden Elgin ("Native Tongue")? She has very interesting online newsletters (with particular focus on linguistics) and if you haven't been there you might be interested to take a look at http://www.forlovingkindness.org/ where back issues of the Religious Language Newsletter are posted. I very much enjoy Le Guin and Diane Duane (particularly the "Door" series, whose conclusion I hope will be published before I die) and of course Asimov is an old favorite: such a wonderfully *sane* man. MZB up to a point: Darkover through City of Sorcery (I may misremember the title); and Mists of Avalon. I deeply admire her carrying on writing after the stroke, but for me the magic was gone. Tiptree, yes -- (Alice Sheldon, is it?) My other major favorites are Sheri Tepper (though I think her work after Raising the Stones is less impressive) and Terry Pratchett. And I usually enjoy Melissa Scott. I don't read as much SF as I used to -- after close on 45 years reading in the genre (I think I was about ten when I first became aware of it, when it was considered a bit eccentric) I rather focus on favorites, but of course there are many others. I've been sorry not to be able to get into Lois Buchold or Tanith Lee or Elizabeth Moon (other than remnant Population) -- I tried several but they didn't work for me. Or haven't so far -- who knows! >I like reading commentaries on the Bible Have you read Asimov's? Very interesting. And I rather enjoy C.S. Lewis, though he often exasperates me, but his writing is sublime. Do you know The Great Divorce? It can reasonably be considered religious fantasy, like Narnia and the Silent Planet series. Andre Norton doesn't grab me, but James Blish sometimes does. William Tenn. The earlier Robert Sheckley. Frederic Brown. Henry Kuttner. Heinlein just because he came up with so many ideas and angles that were new to me, though I have trouble reading him now. Oh, and Theodore Sturgeon all the way. Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:18:48 -0700 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: "Laura J. Mixon-Gould" Subject: Re: Georgia Flag (was: Re: Ashcroft) In-Reply-To: <26414-3A6B4B60-3177@storefull-161.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/21/01 1:49 PM, John Vazquez at BACCHUS5@WEBTV.NET wrote: > Cindy, the confederate flag stands for a bunch of seditionists that > tried to overthrow the US it insults afican americans and if right > wingers are so enamored of a defeated flag that represents traitors to > our union, then wear it on your license plate put it in a museum or in > your back yard , but don,t force it on us african americans by flying it > over public buildings. What would people say if Germany insisted on > flying the swastika over their public buildings? John John's tone has been very sharp during this debate, and I've winced a couple of times over some of his remarks (as I have over some defensive and angry remarks made on the other side of the debate). I hesitate to characterize anyone's views with as much certainty as John and Cindy have done. There's too much none of us know about each other and why we feel and think the way we do, for me to be willing to take such strong positions based on a few phosphors on a screen written in haste and the heat of the moment. However, I agree wholeheartedly with John on this one. Flying the Confederate flag over public buildings is at best incredibly insensitive to African Americans, whose forebears were murdered, tortured, treated as property, and denied their basic humanity for generations, under that flag. Slavery only stopped when the Confederate flag came down. However much the current conservatives want to separate the Civil War from slavery, for the blacks whose ancestors were only freed when that war was won by the North, that connection cannot ever be severed. Pride in one's state and town of birth are natural. (I lived in east Texas for years, and loved the people and the culture, even while I had grave problems with the political and religious views that many people held. It's a state full of friendly and generous individuals.) But can you not see, Cindy, how making such a gesture of (white) Southern pride as flying the Confederate flag over public buildings, while knowing full well the feelings of humiliation and horror that evokes in the many African American citizens of those states, might be called racist? Insisting on flying the Confederate flag under such circumstances disowns the depth of evil that enslaving another human entails. A tangential but relevant question: who here has seen "Finding Forrester?" It's a moving and powerful movie about a young black man with a hidden gift. Among other things, the movie beautifully demonstrates just how modern-day prejudice (and other societal forces) work to keep African Americans (and other minorities) from realizing their true potential in our culture. -l. -- Laura J. Mixon * ljm@digitalnoir.com * www.digitalnoir.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ON THE SHELVES--- _Proxies_: SF-noir * Tor 10/99 ISBN 0812523873 * www.digitalnoir.com/prx COMING SOON--- "At Tide's Turning:" terraforming run amok * Asimov's SF- 4/01 _Burning the Ice_: on a Jovian moon, hi-tech mystery, betrayal & intrigue A Tor Books hardback 2001 * watch for the webpage! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:36:52 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: Unborn Conservative Feminists.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura J. Mixon wote: >In other words, I believe there comes a point during pregnancy in which the >rights of the fetus should come into consideration, and that that point >comes sometime before birth -- but nowhere near conception or implantation. At independent viability, perhaps? When a woman might reasonably choose to say: Okay, I'll accept a C-section and the foetus/baby can have the benefits of preemie technology if somebody will bear the cost? But I think most late-term abortions are because something has gone wrong with the pregnancy, not because somebody can't fit into her prom dress, which I have heard cited, or because a woman simply has been unable to gain access to an early procedure and is desperate to end the pregnancy. I doubt any sane woman continues a pregnancy for several months, with all its discomfort, merely to assert her right to choose a late-term abortion (assuming she can obtain one). Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:46:41 +1300 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jenny Rankine Subject: Ashcroft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0841D.903537B0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0841D.903537B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Among the 200-odd subscribers to this list are at least several who = live outside the US and who do not see it as the centre of the world. =20 I don't know who Ashcroft is and don't care. I want to read your = opinions about feminist sf, not US politics, discussion of which I usually find parochial at the best of times. Please, if you want to debate this = guy, do it off the list. I don't want to keep on having to delete e-mails. Jenny Rankine Auckland=20 Aotearoa/New Zealand =A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA= =B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0= =BA=A4 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0841D.903537B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ashcroft

Among the 200-odd = subscribers to this list are at least several who live outside the US = and who do not see it as the centre of the world. 

I don't know who = Ashcroft is and don't care.  I want to read your opinions about = feminist sf, not US politics, discussion of which I usually find = parochial at the best of times.  Please, if you want to debate = this guy, do it off the list.  I don't want to keep on having to = delete e-mails.

Jenny Rankine
Auckland
Aotearoa/New = Zealand

=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8= =B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8=A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4=F8,=B8=B8,=F8= =A4=BA=B0`=B0=BA=A4

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0841D.903537B0-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 19:41:16 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Jo Ann Rangel Subject: Re: ashcroft; turning this thread to perceptions of Feminist terms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I might be too late on this end of the thread but if anyone has read of a definition of say a Conservative Feminist (no flames please) or a type of Feminist that may be construed as something that is not, especially when discussing FSF, I would be interested in reading about it, primarily because at the moment I have been putting the issue together as part of my project as to why do people react so negatively to a term with the word feminist attached to it? I was out to dinner tonight with my best friend on the planet, who happens to be a gay male, and I was explaining about my project starting off and that I wanted to organize a survey about the perception of the term Feminist Science Fiction...and he right off the bat said why are you studying lesbian literature so now am like what is this issue I am trying to investigate...I mean from the majority of hetero folks (never thinking of this issue in terms of sexual orientation before tonight that is) the term feminist conjures up negative connotations because they go right away to the thought that women hate men. Or the conversation will turn to that direction...its like when I would tell a stranger about my college campus having a large Woman's Center as a place for gatherings and special functions, I would hear oh you mean a lesbian cafe... the perception of a term and what it may connotate can be so broad I am discovering, am starting to wonder if a survey would serve a useful purpose, sigh. I would like to write about this issue for my project to point out through example I believe this field of study gets so understudied as it is, until you really get into the literature itself and explore the many many issues that do affect the everyday, that do show semblences of our own societal woes and hits and misses, the field is dismissed as unimportant because there is a label slapped onto it that leaves people uninterested in checking into it further. And also since posting a request for help with my organizing a survey, I have received a ton of helpful ideas, the day after I posted that email I was out running errands in town and I was starting to think about the scope of what I was going to try to do, and at first it seemed so overwhelming, but then after reading such helpful suggestions from members of the list and people who were forwarded my post, am beliving I can tame this beast down to a managable size, grin. Jo Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laura Quilter" To: Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] ashcroft > I'll weigh in here. I agree that you cannot "reasono with" people who > claim to be one thing or another. But not because they claim an identity > that makes no sense. But because people have their own definitions for > what they mean by particular terms. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 23:23:01 EST Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Margaret Poore Subject: Re: Unborn Conservative Feminists.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When does a fetus become a human being, protected by the rights we hold to be "inalienable"? .....this is indeed something I have long struggled with and have not found any cut-and-dried answers for. As a menopausal lesbian, who never had occasion to concieve a child, I never had to face this issue as a personal reality. Had I ever become pregnant, even as the result of a rape, I would have had a very difficult time choosing to abort. I work with children with disabilities and nearly all of them are able to experience the joy of being alive as much as we able people are. If I knew I was carrying a child with a disability, I don't think I would choose to abort. Still, I fervently support women's reproductive rights. I think the right-to-lifers greatly exaggerate how many of the women who choose to abort do so frivolously or without careful consideration and mental anguish. Of course there are some who do. But many, many women who choose to abort do it reluctantly and with regard for their own lives and the lives of their husbands and children. These issues are extremely complex and circumstances vary widely. I believe that this is an area where each woman must make her own decision based on her own best judgment with the help of her doctor, her husband if she has one, or others she reaches out to for support. Yes, some women will make deplorable choices. But we don't pass laws saying that all women must marry, or all women must attempt to get pregnant. We leave it to each woman's best judgment as to whether or not she will choose these options. Still, since you asked, I have, over the years, developed what to me is a rough estimate of when a fetus is a human being. Partly I have developed my idea based in dealing with friends who have lost pregnancies. My belief is that a fetus is a human being 1)when a woman is aware of her pregnancy and desires to nurture the fetus so that it will grow into a human being. This definition is dependent upon the perception of the mother and does allow for an embryo of even just a few dozen cells to be considered human (altho most women are not even aware they are pregnant until well after this stage of development). 2)I also believe that a fetus is a human being once it has a functioning nervous system. If a woman can feel her fetus kicking, she is feeling her baby kicking. At that stage of development, an elective abortion comes perilously close to murder, in my mind. But I think abortions at this stage are quite rare. 3)I believe that some near-term fetuses (feti?) and some new-born infants are not human beings. This is the case in which the child has pervasive developmental abnormalities that require extensive medical intervention to maintain life. Parents and physicians should have the legal right to allow these infants to die without threat of being charged with murder. It would be nice if we could come up with some clear-cut, easily stated and mandated definition of what makes a critter human.....but until we do, sloppy and inelegant definitions like mine will have to do. Margaret -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 23:32:57 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: ashcroft; turning this thread to perceptions of Feminist terms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jo Ann Rangel: >definition of say a Conservative Feminist Try a search of the two words on http://google.com I started one earlier -- some interesting stuff comes up. Here are two I looked at so far: http://www.amexp.org/publications/culture/culture2.htm http://www.research.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/fem_con.html Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:56:57 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: The other list In-Reply-To: <01e601c083f9$2037d840$9ffb6420@fpgcswgi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII send email to: listserv@uic.edu in the email say: subscribe feministsf-lit Your Name same address, similarly to unsub: unsubscribe feministsf-lit On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Frances wrote: > I started to ask before, then lost the message: > > What is the subscription info for the other list? I used to belong on an old > Juno account, but reached a point where none of them worked, and I lost track of > it all in subsequent preoccupations. I'd like to get back there as well as stay > here. > > Frances > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:58:14 -0800 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Laura Quilter Subject: women & the bible was, Re: [*FSFFU*] Books In-Reply-To: <009F675F.BCCB7A00.3@dragon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i'm curious if anybody has read Elizabeth Cady Stanton's THE WOMEN'S BIBLE? in an ambitious moment a few years ago i picked up a copy but haven't actually, err, read it. is it substantially different? On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Cindy Smith wrote: > >From: MX%"haghome@BANET.NET" "Frances" 21-JAN-2001 17:33:21.82 > >To: MX%"FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU" > >Subj: Re: [*FSFFU*] Unborn Conservative Feminists.... > > >Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 17:21:43 -0500 > >Reply-To: Frances > >Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" > > > >From: Frances > >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Unborn Conservative Feminists.... > >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU > > >What SF authors and books do you enjoy, Cindy? > > I like Leigh Brackett, particularly _The Long Tomorrow_. I also like > Ursula K. LeGuin, particularly _The Left Hand of Darkness_. I like > Walter M. Miller's _A Canticle for Leibowitz_. I like Marion Zimmer > Bradley, particularly the Darkover series. I like Tanith Lee. I very > much enjoy Madeleine L'Engle, especially _A Wrinkle in Time_ and > various sequels. I like Diane Duane, Diane Carey, J.C. Fontana, > James Tiptree, Jr. (the female author's real name escapes me at the > moment), especially _Radio Free Albamuth_ and other works. I like > Isaac Asimov, particularly the Foundation series and any robot > stories; I think the Three Laws of Robotics are based on or similar to > the Ten Commandments. Of course, I'm especially fond of the Bible, > particularly women's tales in the Bible, especially Genesis. I'm very > fond of references to a feminine God in the Bible (ask me for chapters > and verses another time). I like reading commentaries on the Bible, > especially the Jerome Biblical Commentary but others as well. I like > reading Augustine's _Confessions_ and _City of God_. I like Thomas > Aquinas's _Summa Theologica_ and _Summa Contra Gentiles_. I like > Teresa of Avila's _Interior Castle_. I like Julian of Norwich's > _Showings_. I like Catherine of Sienna. I'm particularly fond of > Little Saint Therese of the Child Jesus and her _Story of a Soul_. > Note that Saint Teresa of Avila and Saint Catherine of Sienna and > Little Saint Therese of the Child Jesus are all Doctors of the Church. > I like Andre Norton (any of her stories). I like J.A. Lawrence (the > wife of James Blish), and I also like James Blish. > > Those are just a few of the authors I like that come to mine. > > Who do you like to read? > > >Frances > > > Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter > GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\ _\\\_ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgia > cms@dragon.com >IXOYE=('> <`)= _<< "Delay not your conversion > cms@romancatholic.org// /// \\\ \\ to the LORD, Put it not off > cms@5sc.net from day to day" Ecclus/Sira 5:8 > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:16:22 -0500 Reply-To: Frances Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Frances Subject: Re: women & the bible was, Re: [*FSFFU*] Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Laura Quilter" >i'm curious if anybody has read Elizabeth Cady Stanton's THE WOMEN'S >BIBLE? in an ambitious moment a few years ago i picked up a copy but >haven't actually, err, read it. is it substantially different? http://www.undelete.org/library/library0041.html Stanton and others comment on the text of: [Ed. Note: The Bible used in the preparation of The Woman's Bible is the 1888 edition of the Julie Smith translation of the Bible - a literal translation - one of FIVE translations by this brilliant woman. See the appendix for more information.] This site seems to be a work in progress: "More to come". (Good old Google again -- I'm addicted to it. I even use it to look up quotations now: so far it hasn't failed me.) Frances -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 05:34:07 -0000 Reply-To: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" Sender: "For discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature" From: Kate Dall Subject: Re: ashcroft Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sharon, May I suggest you limit your subscription to the FEMINISTSF-LIT list? I was under the impression that the whole point of splitting the list in two was to allow people like you to be undisturbed by people like me, who enjoy getting slightly off-topic. Kate (an Australian who wants to know what is happening in other countries, and appreciates hearing the point of view of the locals) >From: Sharon Collingwood >Reply-To: scolling@JULIAN.UWO.CA >To: FEMINISTSF@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU >Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] ashcroft >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:16:07 -0500 > >Hello everyone, I am writing from Canada. > >You're welcome for the electricity - and by the way, we >don't ban books, we just stop questionable material at the border. >This, in itself, has raised quite a controversy here over >the past several years. > >I enjoy this list, but I have signed on to discuss Feminist >Science Fiction. I find American politics profoundly >depressing, and hitting the "delete" button sixty times in >one day is a bit much for me. > >Could I suggest that we keep the list topic in mind, >and if there are posts to the list that people find objectionable >...even, perhaps, a bit weird... it might be a good idea just >not to respond to them. > >Lists so often disappear in flames. It would be a >pity if that happened here. > >...one woman's opinion > >Sharon Collingwood > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU if there are problems.