Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0205B" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 01:33:32 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lori Selke Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020507195707.00a15e30@www.leeanne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 7 May 2002, Lee Anne Phillips wrote: > As for pornography in general, most is made by the exploitation > of young women who have a history of childhood sexual abuse. > The idea that a distinction can be made between violent and > non-violent pornography seems specious at best, since even > in "non-violent" movies the system by which girls are "broken" > to pornography and prostitution is violent at its heart. I don't think you know very much about "the system" you're so blithely condemning here. This sounds more like a fantasy (I am reminded of Andrea Dworkin's near-pornographic novels that oh-so-lovingly detail the hideous abuses she's so intent on condemning) than any reality I'm acquainted with -- and it is a reality, an industry, I am acquainted with. > Just as people with their heads screwed on right refuse to > purchase canned tuna fish that is not "dolphin safe," despite > the fact that one can't *see* dolphins being killed no matter > what tuna one buys, I'd think that the only correct moral stance > is to refuse to purchase or watch *any* pornography involving > women unless you personally know the parties involved and > can vouch for the fact that the women have not been coerced > by pimps, or raped and devastated by male relatives. Of course, what you're asking is not that we do the equivalent of purchasing tuna labeled "dolphin safe," but that we purchase tuna only when we know the fisherfolk who caught it. Any other choice, according to you, would not be moral. Why single out pornography? Why not refuse to purchase any product produced via the exploitation of women? (Like sweatshop clothing, for example). Why not be consistent instead of singling out pornography? But make sure only to buy clothes from tailors you personally know. When porn gets made into a special, extra-icky category, my hackles rise. There's a lot of social and gender injustice in the world, but porn isn't extra-special in the levels of that sort of injustice. It's just another industry, and it would behoove more of us to realize that sooner or later. I'm sick of overprotective feminist mommies telling me that I'm irreparably damaged and my sexual choices irrevocably compromised because of any abuse history I might have. This gives way too much power to the abuser, and takes away my own volition in the matter. Pornography isn't a "clean" industry, but none of the entertainment industries are. I don't think pimps are any worse than, say, the controlling manager of a teen pop star. I don't think boob jobs on porn stars are any worse than boob jobs on fashion models or movie stars. I think singling out pornography is a convenient way to score easy points and avoid the hard work of changing society *as a whole* rather than piecemeal. Lori -- selk@io.com, selk@sirius.com, http://www.io.com/~selk "This is no time of remorse. This is a time for cookies!" --Love and Rockets -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 10:02:42 +0200 Reply-To: Torreif Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Torreif Subject: Re: Feminist science fiction? Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thursday, May 2, 2002, 5:43:13 AM, Sarah Young wrote: SY> Here, again, I feel a need to bring up the issue of gender dichotomy. For SY> any given trait, there's something of a bell curve in terms of its incidence SY> among male-bodied people, and a slightly different bell curve in terms of SY> incidence in female-bodied people. Although this kind of information can SY> give you broad statistical information about a population, it is utterly SY> useless in interacting with a single human being. Yes! In fact, there is far more variation within the group "males" and within the group "females" than there is between the two groups. And for every trait we label "male" or "female", we can find some culture which labels them the opposite. SY> Additionally, all of these dichotomies are strongly challenged by queer SY> theory, transgender, intersex, and genderqueer people. I absolutely believe SY> that we have created an utterly false dichotomy regarding gender, and that SY> we reinforce it over and over in a million different ways. I agree! -- Wildbird mailto:torreif@subdimension.com "The only jobs for which no man is qualified are human incubator and wet nurse. Likewise, the only job for which no women is or can be qualified is sperm donor." Wilma Scott Heide "Every social trait labelled masculine or feminine is in truth a human trait. It is our human right to develop and contribute our talents whatever our race, sex, religion, ancestry, age. Human rights are indivisible!" Wilma Scott Heide "[Feminism] asks that women be free to define themselves -- instead of having their identity defined for them, time and again, by their culture and their men." Susan Faludi (1959-____) born on Apr 18 US writer, feminist "One day our descendants will think it incredible that we paid so much attention to things like the amount of melanin in our skin or the shape of our eyes or our gender, instead of the unique identities of each of us as complex human beings." - Franklin Thomas "We are more alike, my friends, than we are unalike." - Maya Angelou Owner/Moderator of: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MoonShield_WingSisters http://groups.yahoo.com/group/magevale ICQ: 82980723 Authorization required OutVale Wizard for MageVale MUSH, an adult kink-friendly role play MUSH Telnet:MageVale.mudservices.com:3333 -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 01:57:38 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <200205080124.175jW78c3Nl3pM0@kendall.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Anita Weingarten wrote: > If you accept this argument (and even if you don't), then you can't > say that He-Man toys *simply* sell well to boys. Young children, like > the rest of us, are subject to a whole host of cultural influences and > expectations which limit and direct their choices. I guess I am > really just agreeing with John when he says that there is "a cultural > effort promoted by both men and women to teach boys to be > traditionally masculine." I just don't want to ignore the extent to > which the power behind any such effort is unequally distributed. Many > people have an interest in propping up traditional notions of gender, > but corporations which market to children have a very concrete, > measurable interest in the same, as well as a powerful forum for > ensuring it happens. Well said, this is a *very* important portion of the picture that I neglected to mention, thank you for doing so. The corporate advertising here is an excellent example of what the Marxist concept of hegemony (control of information and media) really means. It's interesting that the large corporation have no real interest in promoting traditional gender roles, but merely that doing so allows them to make more money. Short of abolishing the whole capitalism mess (my choice, but rather impractical) the key is now finding a way to let them make even more money promoting a more egalitarian agenda. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 10:03:42 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Dave Belden Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It's interesting that the large corporation have no real > interest in promoting traditional gender roles, but merely that doing > so allows them to make more money. Short of abolishing the > whole capitalism mess (my choice, but rather impractical) the key > is now finding a way to let them make even more money promoting > a more egalitarian agenda. > This is an intriguing idea, and one that may not be given enough attention on the left. Capitalism is basically an amoral wealth-producing system with both very good and very bad consequences. The capitalist discovery of a gay market, as of marketing to other minorities, with glossy ads etc. may strike one as excessively cynical, but it also surely helps to make those minorities more 'respectable' socially, more mainstream. As does the fact that it is corporations that have made the most progress (as compared to government, in the USA anyway) in bringing spousal benefits to gays. When gay marriage is legalized in the US, it will be in part because the corporations de facto accepted it long before. While the culture of typical male capitalists is patriarchal/traditional, and most had to be brought kicking and screaming to accept anti-harassment and anti-racist policies, the ideology of the corporation and the capitalist market is not in itself inextricably tied to anything other than making money. So it is much more open to feminism or any other popular tendency than are the traditional religions and political ideologies. If the Catholic Church ever gets a female CEO (year what - 2500?), it will be partly because of all the female corporate popes before her. It is interesting to note that feminism has progressed furthest in the most successful capitalist countries. This is something that the left doesn't seem to want to think about too much. It is too paradoxical. Accepting it means accepting that something unideal might nonetheless have positive consequences. A pragmatic system might be better than a utopian one. Capitalism didn't create feminism, but it sure enabled its remarkably fast growth in the last century. I have rarely seen feminists celebrate this or give credit where it's due. The rampant success of the wealth-making process turned a rural barter economy into an urban money economy. Women got wages (independence), education, and critical mass in factories, universities: all necessary for developing modern feminism. I would argue that feminism will come to Islamic and other less developed countries in direct proportion to the successful growth of the modern economy. A favorite saying of my wife's grandmother was, 'Money is options.' One of the options is feminism, and the more people are attracted to those ideas, the more the corporations will respond. There are many conflicts to be fought, but one of the ways of fighting is simply by choosing which toys to buy. Having said that, I am the father of a 13 year old boy who was brought up with almost as feminist an environment as one could hope for in this culture, and who is now addicted to video games, all of which involve fighting. He's more attracted to strategy games than behind-the-gun games, but such distinctions may be straws that parents grasp at. He went to a very egalitarian daycare, then to public schools, where he found himself increasingly isolated and depressed, so we gulped and discarded our political preferences and sent him to a progressive private school, where he is flourishing. He had no toy guns or modern weapons as a small child (our eventual compromise with his pleading arguments was to allow mythical/traditional weapons, like a wooden sword). My wife worked for nine years in domestic violence programs and is extremely sensitive to issues of male violence. We have not had TV reception since he was five. We have had numerous conflicts and discussions, and many video games have been banned, but he has gradually widened the scope of what he is allowed. He's a nice kid, generous, kind, has friends who are girls despite the boy-group thing. Teaching him, helping him, to make his own value decisions in the midst of the modern culture, which appears to us toxically full of violence and disrespect for women, seems to us to be the best preparation for independent adulthood, as opposed to sequestering him totally from it (near impossible anyway) or just letting him loose in it. He never had the 'truck gene' as such, and certainly seems to have had a consistent cuddly toy gene, but he sure has the simulated fighting gene - at least parents can be forgiven for thinking that's what is happening despite their best efforts. Was it an innocent mistake that as a little boy, when leant a piece of software called 'Flight Simulator,' he thought it was 'Fight Stimulator'? I posted this last para mostly because of the posts (was it more than one?) from women with small boys. It gets harder as they get older, but I do think that all is by no means lost even with a 13-year-old boy addicted to video games, if that is any consolation. I would at this point be very surprised if he didn't grow up to be a gentle man and a good father. But what toys will be buy his kids? I don't know. Dave -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 11:31:11 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Sarah Young Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Dave Belden > >I posted this last para mostly because of the posts (was it more than one?) >from women with small boys. It gets harder as they get older, but I do >think >that all is by no means lost even with a 13-year-old boy addicted to video >games, if that is any consolation. I would at this point be very surprised >if he didn't grow up to be a gentle man and a good father. But what toys >will be buy his kids? I don't know. > >Dave > This is a wonderfully hope-filled statement... I've had a similar experience with my younger brothers, ages 22 and 16. Although both play around to some extent with the types of imagined violence found in video games and such (and the 22-year-old is fascinated by medieval sword-play), I have very little doubt that they will be positive forces in the world, especially in regards to gender equality. My parents laid the groundwork, for them and for me, with non-violent toys, and non-gender-based decisions regarding toy selection. Matt, the youngest, had a babydoll named Joshua that he treated with such tenderness that my visions of him as a father are very positive. I had a combination of dolls, trucks, contruction toys (erector sets, tinker toys, construx, legos, etc), action figures, transformers, which my brothers inherited as I got older. Actually, of all three of us, I was the most aggressive and rough (partially because, as a tomboy, I experienced peer pressure to "prove" that I was tough enough to hang out with the boys). I think we're all romantic enough to have visions of rescuing people, and slaying monsters (not dragons - we like them too much *grin*), but we're also pretty good at directing those impulses toward sci-fi and fantasy; immersing ourselves in the imaginary, rather than acting those out in reality. One of the most positive things I've seen in Matt and James, as they've grown up, are their continuing close friendships with women (paralleling in many ways my close friendships with men). We also continue to discuss issues that affect women - since both of them are at "dating" age, we talk a lot about ways of structuring relationships, effects of body image and self-esteem problems, safer sex, negotiation and consent, etc, etc. --Sarah _________________________________________________________________ Join the world^Òs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:54:32 +0100 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lesley Hall Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Capitalism didn't create feminism, but it sure enabled its remarkably fast >growth in the last century. I have rarely seen feminists celebrate this or >give credit where it's due. The rampant success of the wealth-making process >turned a rural barter economy into an urban money economy. Women got wages >(independence), education, and critical mass in factories, universities: all >necessary for developing modern feminism. And, certainly within the British context, all the changes that didn't just involve women simply working a grinding industrial labour shift on top of being mothers and housewives, were only achieved through constant and continued pressure from feminist campaigners, male and female. The entry of women into 'white collar' (retail, clerical, etc) and the 'higher' professions, advanced education, (and of course grant of political rights, fairer conditions of marriage and child custody etc), was not a process of them being sucked in by the demands of the capitalist marketplace: it was the result of push by women - who had lost the important roles they had played in household and workshop economies before the industrial revolution - and their allies. Egalitarianism was and is not a necessary outcome. Lesley Hall lesleyah@primex.co.uk website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:50:59 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Sarah Young Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Lori Selke > >I don't think you know very much about "the system" you're so blithely >condemning here. This sounds more like a fantasy (I am reminded of Andrea >Dworkin's near-pornographic novels that oh-so-lovingly detail the hideous >abuses she's so intent on condemning) than any reality I'm acquainted with >-- and it is a reality, an industry, I am acquainted with. > I very much agree with this assessment. Having a number of friends in various aspects of the sex industry, including an ex-girlfriend/best friend who is a professional escort, this doesn't gibe with my understanding and impression at all. There are plenty of problems in the sex industry, as in any industry, and I do my best to work to change those, but, aside from the stigma/pity assigned by others, and the issues of illegality for some forms of sex work, the primary issues that arise are the same that feminism attempts to address in every other sphere of the capitalist workplace. Sex work is like most other work - some rewarding moments, some shitty moments, and lots in-between. >When porn gets made into a special, extra-icky category, my hackles rise. I perceive this as an aspect of judeo-christian sex-negativity (or, perhaps more accurately, sex-specificity - that there are certain proscribed manners in which sexuality is "ok" and many others in which it is "unacceptable") that has thoroughly, and frequently without discussion, been absorbed into the general worldview of many feminists, and many branches of feminism. I see this as extremely problematic in addressing the actual oppression of women, within sex work and without. A woman economically enslaved and forced to perform life-threatening work is a heinous crime, and must be addressed whether she is a sex worker or a coal miner. In the same light, a woman who is not having issues of sexual harassment and rape addressed fairly and equitably by our legal system needs the support of the feminist community whether she's a secretary or a sex worker. Unfortunately, too many feminists are in bed with the radical right on this... "Love the sinner, hate the sin", "Poor thing hasn't seen the light, she just doesn't know any better. Feminism/Jesus will show her the way". Whether the "savior" is feminism or god, the arrogance of telling someone that "she's just deluded by the heteropatriarchy/satan", telling her that _her_ voice doesn't count unless she's saying things you agree with, nauseates me. It's absolutely counter to everything about feminism, and it seems to pop up primarily when we're discussing issues of sexual freedom - sex work, bdsm, you-name-it. The minute we reach a more neutral topic, we suddenly start valuing the voices of the women on the front lines. Why not here? >I'm sick of overprotective feminist mommies telling me that I'm irreparably >damaged and my sexual choices irrevocably compromised because of any abuse >history I might have. This gives way too much power to the abuser, and >takes away my own volition in the matter. > Precisely! I take enough shit from the world in general for standing up and being feminist. Unfortunately, it's relatively rare for me to be able to "come home" to a community that _does_ feel safe for me, that will listen to my lived experience without doing their damndest to disempower my voice because it doesn't mesh with what they want to believe about the topic. --Sarah ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sarah Young Gender and Sexuality Freedom Activist http://OhioGSFC.Homestead.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _________________________________________________________________ Join the world^Òs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 16:16:35 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Dave Belden Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <000c01c1f6b2$e859dee0$15229dc3@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Capitalism didn't create feminism, but it sure enabled its > remarkably fast > >growth in the last century. I have rarely seen feminists > celebrate this or > >give credit where it's due. The rampant success of the wealth-making > process > >turned a rural barter economy into an urban money economy. Women > got wages > >(independence), education, and critical mass in factories, universities: > all > >necessary for developing modern feminism. > > And, certainly within the British context, all the changes that > didn't just > involve women simply working a grinding industrial labour shift on top of > being mothers and housewives, were only achieved through constant and > continued pressure from feminist campaigners, male and female. > The entry of > women into 'white collar' (retail, clerical, etc) and the 'higher' > professions, advanced education, (and of course grant of political rights, > fairer conditions of marriage and child custody etc), was not a process of > them being sucked in by the demands of the capitalist marketplace: it was > the result of push by women - who had lost the important roles they had > played in household and workshop economies before the industrial > revolution - and their allies. > Egalitarianism was and is not a necessary outcome. Absolutely the feminist campaigners made it happen, and without them, it would not have happened. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But, because the campaigning involves necessarily fighting the companies and the status quo political structure, there's a tendency for the campaigners to forget that without the changes made by capitalism much feminist progress would not have happened either. It's been a curious process, whereby both sides are needed; without either side we would be stuck in a situation much worse for women, by most criteria (health, longevity, independence, education etc.) This is relevant to globalization, because many feminists oppose it - which is fair enough if we are talking globalization as world-domination-by-big-corporations, but not if we mean globalization as the spread of civilized regulated capitalism (civilized and regulated in large part by the results of trade unions, democracy, feminist campaigns etc.), which so far has been the best thing for women. Not that other evolutions beyond capitalism are not possible in future - that's why we're attracted to science fiction. Dave -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 17:36:50 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:33 AM 5/8/02 -0500, Lori Selke wrote: >On Tue, 7 May 2002, Lee Anne Phillips wrote: > > > As for pornography in general, most is made by the exploitation > >I don't think you know very much about "the system" you're so >blithely condemning here. This sounds more like a fantasy >(I am reminded of Andrea Dworkin's near-pornographic novels >that oh-so-lovingly detail the hideous abuses she's so intent >on condemning) than any reality I'm acquainted with -- and it >is a reality, an industry, I am acquainted with. So am I, actually. > > Just as people with their heads screwed on right refuse to > > purchase canned tuna fish that is not "dolphin safe," despite >Of course, what you're asking is not that we do the equivalent of >purchasing tuna labeled "dolphin safe," but that we purchase tuna >only when we know the fisherfolk who caught it. Any other choice, >according to you, would not be moral. Unfortunately, pornography is not labeled as to source and working conditions, as is tuna. Before labeling, there was in fact a boycott of all yellowfin tuna, the variety caught by "setting on" dolphins. Many people still don't buy yellowfin tuna, because the practice of setting on dolphins hasn't changed, they simply back down the nets a little and let some of the dolphins out. Many dolphins still die in the yellowfin tuna industry. >Why single out pornography? Why not refuse to purchase any product >produced via the exploitation of women? (Like sweatshop clothing, >for example). Why not be consistent instead of singling >out pornography? I don't single out pornography, and take pains not to buy clothing and foodstuffs produced with sweatshop labor, with extraordinary environmental degradation, and so on. But explaining the vast range of possible moral behavior, even in an imperfect world, is probably too much for a single post. >When porn gets made into a special, extra-icky category, my hackles rise. >There's a lot of social and gender injustice in the world, but porn >isn't extra-special in the levels of that sort of injustice. It's >just another industry, and it would behoove more of us to realize >that sooner or later. I'm sorry, but "pornography," which very word translates to "writing about prostitutes," is not an industry like any other. It's an "industry" unlike any other, however many pseudo- Marxist metaphors one can draw between exploited workers selling their physical or mental labor and exploited women selling sexual access to their bodies. To paraphrase an old movie, it's *not* just like shaking hands. If fact, a woman with sufficient dissociation from her body that it may seem probably has other problems as well. That's why there are so many women (and men) in the "industry" with histories of severe childhood sexual or other abuse. I'm truly sorry if you cannot see the difference between selling sexual access to a woman's body and carpentry, for example. I don't here restrict the types of employment that are *not* similar to prostitution to carpentry, but only offer it as one example among many. While the distinction seems self-evident to me, perhaps your vision blurs the difference into non-existence. >I'm sick of overprotective feminist mommies telling me that >I'm irreparably damaged and my sexual choices irrevocably >compromised because of any abuse history I might have. >This gives way too much power to the abuser, and takes away >my own volition in the matter. I'm heartily sorry to hear of any woman's sexual abuse, but childhood sexual abuse often causes irrevocable damage to important structures in the brain, leading to long term deficits in function and behavior. This is no more and no less power than any physical abuse can cause. Does the fact that a beating or other attack may break ribs or bones, may even kill one, "give too much power" to the abuser? Does bleeding from a gunshot wound give "too much power" to the assassin? This is not to say that there is no potential for growth, for as Richard Eder once said, "Art grows from what you can't recover from." >Pornography isn't a "clean" industry, but none of the entertainment >industries are. I don't think pimps are any worse than, say, the >controlling manager of a teen pop star. I don't think boob jobs on >porn stars are any worse than boob jobs on fashion models or movie >stars. I think singling out pornography is a convenient way to >score easy points and avoid the hard work of changing society >*as a whole* rather than piecemeal. Society cannot be changed "as a whole" without wandering into the realm of science fiction or fantasy. That's why this type of literature exists. But I think most women in the non-sexual entertainment industry would resent being told that what they do is merely an analog of prostitution and that the people they work with are pimping them. Lee Anne -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 20:11:30 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lori Selke Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020508033119.0259a210@www.leeanne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 8 May 2002, Lee Anne Phillips wrote: I'm snipping a lot because I'm not interested in a detail-by-detail fight; I recognize a closed mind when I see one. But I have a right to speak my own reality, too. So... > I'm sorry, but "pornography," which very word translates to > "writing about prostitutes," is not an industry like any other. > It's an "industry" unlike any other, however many pseudo- > Marxist metaphors one can draw between exploited workers > selling their physical or mental labor and exploited women > selling sexual access to their bodies. To paraphrase an > old movie, it's *not* just like shaking hands. If fact, a woman > with sufficient dissociation from her body that it may seem > probably has other problems as well. That's why there are > so many women (and men) in the "industry" with histories > of severe childhood sexual or other abuse. > > I'm truly sorry if you cannot see the difference between > selling sexual access to a woman's body and carpentry, > for example. That's OK, I don't need your condescension or your pity. You can be sorry for me all you like, it doesn't make a difference as to what we're talking about. I don't cordon off "sex" into a separate categroy of behavior, you see. So you're right, I see less of a difference between selling sexual services and manual labor. Meat cutting, for example, another industry (not "industry") that can chew up a woman's body in a few years. > I'm heartily sorry to hear of any woman's sexual abuse, but > childhood sexual abuse often causes irrevocable damage to > important structures in the brain, leading to long term deficits > in function and behavior. Ah, now I am brain-damaged, I see. Lovely. > This is no more and no less power than > any physical abuse can cause. Does the fact that a beating or > other attack may break ribs or bones, may even kill one, "give > too much power" to the abuser? Does bleeding from a gunshot > wound give "too much power" to the assassin? It does when you assume that any choices I make about, say, gun ownership, are compromised by my prior experiences. That I am permanently unable to make an informed, consensual decision in that area. That is what I am objecting to, and that is what I will always object to. You suggested that we boycott any porn made by a woman with an abuse history, remember? *That* is what gives too much power to the abuser. Your take on my words is so out-of-focus that I begin to believe you;re deliberately misinterpreting it. >I think most women in the non-sexual > entertainment industry would resent being told that what they > do is merely an analog of prostitution and that the people > they work with are pimping them. I would argue that most women in the non-sexual entertainment industries should get over themselves and get in touch with reality, then. Lori -- selk@io.com, selk@sirius.com, http://www.io.com/~selk "This is no time of remorse. This is a time for cookies!" --Love and Rockets -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 18:12:36 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:50 PM 5/8/02 -0400, Sarah Young wrote: >>From: Lori Selke >>I don't think you know very much about "the system" you're so blithely >>condemning here. This sounds more like a fantasy (I am reminded of Andrea >I very much agree with this assessment. Having a number of friends in >various aspects of the sex industry, including an ex-girlfriend/best friend >who is a professional escort, this doesn't gibe with my understanding and In my work, I've talked with many hundreds of prostitutes over a period of many weeks. Of course, most of these women were incarcerated at the time, so perhaps they weren't as upbeat and cheerful as they were normally were. The fact that your friend is an "escort," by which I suppose you mean "call girl," makes her atypical in any case, as most prostitutes are not. >I perceive this as an aspect of judeo-christian sex-negativity (or, perhaps >more accurately, sex-specificity - that there are certain proscribed manners You certainly don't perceive it from me or from my post. >I see this as extremely problematic in addressing the actual oppression of >women, within sex work and without. A woman economically enslaved and forced >to perform life-threatening work is a heinous crime, and must be addressed >whether she is a sex worker or a coal miner. In the same light, a woman who Sex work *is* life-threatening work and among the most dangerous of all occupations. In some prostitute populations, rates of HIV seropositivity is in excess of 60% and other STDs are common. Physical assault by customers and pimps is common, and death is not an unlikely outcome for anyone in the life for any length of time. >Unfortunately, too many feminists are in bed with the radical right on >this... "Love the sinner, hate the sin", "Poor thing hasn't seen the light, Oh, please. One can have negative opinions of any topic without sharing belief systems with the radical right. The Radical Right is presumably opposed to hitting themselves on the head with ball peen hammers (at least most of them), and I'd have to say that, on the whole, I agree with them. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 21:33:03 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Margaret Poore Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too would like to get on the list that IS talking about the book......if this is the ON topic list, why all this pornography discussion? -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 17:42:40 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Rachel Wild Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_17e.81cecd6.2a0c4750_boundary" --part1_17e.81cecd6.2a0c4750_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Hope I didn't babble on too long (and not a single mention of science fiction!). This is my first post -- do let me know if I didn't do it correctly." Not at all, Keep posting and welcome to the list... I'm quite new myself ByeBye Rachel --part1_17e.81cecd6.2a0c4750_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Hope I didn't babble on too long (and not a single mention of science
fiction!).  This is my first  post -- do let me know if I didn't do it
correctly."

Not at all, Keep posting and welcome to the list... I'm quite new myself
ByeBye
Rachel

--part1_17e.81cecd6.2a0c4750_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 17:49:40 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Rachel Wild Subject: Re: Scott Card... a homophobe? Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_7e.274e902a.2a0c48f4_boundary" --part1_7e.274e902a.2a0c48f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Being gay is not a lifestyle. Owning a recreational vehicle is a lifestyle. Naturism is a lifestyle. Even Mormonism may be a lifestyle, although I strongly suspect that most adherents prefer to think of their religious life as something rather more than a hobby." Rachel howls with delighted laughter - My, My. Lee Ann but you have a delightful turn of phrase... --part1_7e.274e902a.2a0c48f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Being gay is not a lifestyle. Owning a recreational vehicle is a lifestyle.
Naturism is a lifestyle. Even Mormonism may be a lifestyle, although I
strongly suspect that most adherents prefer to think of their religious life
as something rather more than a hobby."

Rachel howls with delighted laughter - My, My. Lee Ann but you have a delightful turn of phrase... --part1_7e.274e902a.2a0c48f4_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 18:08:53 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Rachel Wild Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_16c.d6ae886.2a0c4d75_boundary" --part1_16c.d6ae886.2a0c4d75_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "I'm truly sorry if you cannot see the difference between > selling sexual access to a woman's body and carpentry, > for example. That's OK, I don't need your condescension or your pity. You can be sorry for me all you like, it doesn't make a difference as to what we're talking about." Do you think we could progress this debate without re-living the 80's sex wars... There will be survivors on both sides of this debate - and there are gradients in the issue... I don't paticularly feel that Lee Anne's statements about brain trauma are the only possible interpretation of post abuse experience but the arguments about sex 'work' and many other forms of work are sound. For me to sell your body may be a necesity or a limited choice [how many of our choices in this society are truly free] but I believe that to *buy* access to anothers body first or second hand through porn etc. is a form of enslavement. ByeBye Rachel --part1_16c.d6ae886.2a0c4d75_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "I'm truly sorry if you cannot see the difference between
> selling sexual access to a woman's body and carpentry,
> for example.

That's OK, I don't need your condescension or your pity. You can be sorry
for me all you like, it doesn't make a difference as to what we're talking
about."

Do you think we could progress this debate without re-living the 80's sex wars... There will be survivors on both sides of this debate - and there are gradients in the issue...
I don't paticularly feel that Lee Anne's statements about brain trauma are the only possible interpretation of post abuse experience but the arguments about sex 'work' and many other forms of work are sound.
For me to sell your body may be a necesity or a limited choice [how many of our choices in this society are truly free] but I believe that to *buy* access to anothers body first or second hand through porn etc. is a form of enslavement.

ByeBye
Rachel

--part1_16c.d6ae886.2a0c4d75_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 10:47:49 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Sarah Young Subject: Re: OT discussion of sex work Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Rachel Wild > >For me to sell your body may be a necesity or a limited choice [how many of >our choices in this society are truly free] but I believe that to *buy* >access to anothers body first or second hand through porn etc. is a form of >enslavement. > >ByeBye >Rachel > > Here's an interesting example/question for you. I'm a patient-instructor. This means that, generally about twice a week, I get naked and show my cervix to med students/nursing students. I get paid. They pay for my services. They do breast exams, speculum exams, bimanual exams, and rectovaginal exams. Twice, each session, because I'm usually working with two students. I actually enjoy this work. I find it rewarding. I find it entertaining (they're usually insanely nervous because it's generally their first time doing these exams). There are days I'd rather stay home and read, and there are days I'm really psyched to go. Is this ok, because they're inserting devices and fingers into all my orifices in a non-sexual manner (although frequently clumsy) manner? Or am I being enslaved? --Sarah _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 12:03:59 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Dave Belden Subject: Re: OT discussion of sex work Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a gender related question: do men do this work? Not that I'm eager to have a go, I think you would have to be a rather special person to put up with this. I certainly think you are doing a serious public service and I thank you for it. I'm just wondering if it's harder to get men to do it? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > and other media [mailto:FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Sarah Young > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 10:48 AM > To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] OT discussion of sex work > > > >From: Rachel Wild > > > >For me to sell your body may be a necesity or a limited choice > [how many of > >our choices in this society are truly free] but I believe that to *buy* > >access to anothers body first or second hand through porn etc. > is a form of > >enslavement. > > > >ByeBye > >Rachel > > > > > Here's an interesting example/question for you. I'm a patient-instructor. > This means that, generally about twice a week, I get naked and show my > cervix to med students/nursing students. I get paid. They pay for my > services. They do breast exams, speculum exams, bimanual exams, and > rectovaginal exams. Twice, each session, because I'm usually working with > two students. I actually enjoy this work. I find it rewarding. > I find it > entertaining (they're usually insanely nervous because it's > generally their > first time doing these exams). There are days I'd rather stay home and > read, and there are days I'm really psyched to go. Is this ok, because > they're inserting devices and fingers into all my orifices in a non-sexual > manner (although frequently clumsy) manner? Or am I being enslaved? > > --Sarah > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 12:59:14 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lou Hoffman Subject: Re: OT discussion of sex work Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_106.11d4b20d.2a0d5662_boundary" --part1_106.11d4b20d.2a0d5662_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sarah, I used to work in the health field and people thought I was exceptional because I let the students practice drawing blood on me! I bow to you lady! Lou ... And don't worry about the world coming to an end today, it's already tomorrow in Australia. ---- Charles Schultz --part1_106.11d4b20d.2a0d5662_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sarah,

I used to work in the health field and people thought I was exceptional because I let the students practice drawing blood on me! I bow to you lady!

Lou  

... And don't worry about the world coming to an end today,  it's already tomorrow in Australia.
---- Charles Schultz
--part1_106.11d4b20d.2a0d5662_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 13:24:56 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Sarah Young Subject: Re: OT discussion of sex work Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Dave Belden > >I have a gender related question: do men do this work? Not that I'm eager >to >have a go, I think you would have to be a rather special person to put up >with this. I certainly think you are doing a serious public service and I >thank you for it. I'm just wondering if it's harder to get men to do it? >Dave > Yup; we have male instructors who teach male genito-urinary exams. I've haven't specifically asked, but I believe that both men currently working in our program are gay or bi (this doesn't surprise me much, given the greater focus on men's health in the gay/bi community, and the lower rates of "anal-phobia"). They teach prostate exams, testicular exams, and whatever else goes into a male GU exam. Actually several of the female instructors have expressed interest in sitting in on one of the guys' sessions, and inviting them to sit in on ours, in order to learn more about what and how each of us teaches. I'd love to see this happen. Most of the women in the program (there at seven or eight of us) come out of the feminist community, and about half are full-time employed at one of the local abortion clinics (I'm actually a volunteer parking lot escort there, as well, although my full-time job is Helpdesk Analyst at the Cleveland Clinic). What I've learned (or had confirmed) about myself in the course of learning and then instructing in this program, is that teaching with my body is something that comes pretty intuitively to me. In college I was also the girl who would show people what various genital piercings look like - actually, the women's studies professor had me come in as the "live model" when the intro women's studies course did their section on body modification (the bod-mods tends to startle the med students, too *chuckle*), compare labia shapes and sizes with friends who were nervous about theirs, etc. I tend to think of my body as one of my most powerful political tools, and that's very strongly informed by my feminism. Actually, being rather the campus nudist when I was a college student, I had a number of female friends later tell me that spending time seeing my body, and me being comfortable in it, and them realizing that "non-model-shaped" could be attractive, helped them become more comfortable with their bodies in the long run (I'm quite a large woman - 5'7" and somewhere around 250 lbs). In regards to the conversations we've been having about prostitution - if we had a society where prostitutes were respected in the manner that therapists and counselors are (a therapist is not your friend, a prostitute is not your lover, but both types of professionals can be helpful in a variety of circumstances), that's what I'd be doing in a hot minute. I would love to be able to specialize in hands-on sexuality education; help people learn, increase their confidence, etc. Unfortunately, the legal and social stigma around sexuality, especially sexuality in a professional setting, makes it very difficult to foster the kind of mutual respect and healthy interaction that's necessary for doing that work. Sexual Surrogates, who work with some sexuality counselors, do a bit of this, but they're very rare, and not well-accepted by most of the counseling community. Escorts also get some work like this, but it isn't the majority, and it's very hit-or-miss. Professional Dommes actually get closest to the model, in general. Streetwalkers just don't, from anything I've heard. If Leeanne's experience is primarily with them, some of her perspectives make a bit more sense, because they're most likely to be in that position as a result of economic enslavement, not personal choice. However, my point all along has not been that I believe that sex work is functioning in a healthy manner currently; it's that I believe that conditions can be improved, we can help women (and men) out of the job if they want out, and help create the kind of society that respects the women who decide it is their prefered form of work. Get paid to massage a man's back for his pleasure and relaxation - good. Get paid to massage a man's penis for his pleasure and relaxation - evil. It's just weird. To get back to the sci-fi side of these issues... There are many, many, books that posit various different places for sex within society. Anyone want to talk about those, and wander away from the debate discussion? --Sarah _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2080 16:07:34 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Gwen Veazey Subject: sex work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006E_02196BC6.E8E5E760" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006E_02196BC6.E8E5E760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A special thank-you to Sarah both for what you are doing and for sharing = it with us. (Especially your assistance to women/girls needing = abortions.) I am enjoying the discussion! =20 Best, Gwen ------=_NextPart_000_006E_02196BC6.E8E5E760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A special thank-you to Sarah both for what you are doing and for = sharing it=20 with us.  (Especially your assistance to women/girls needing=20 abortions.)
 
I am enjoying the discussion! 
Best,
Gwen
------=_NextPart_000_006E_02196BC6.E8E5E760-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 17:05:55 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lou Hoffman Subject: Re: OT discussion of sex work Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_109.1240d119.2a0d9033_boundary" --part1_109.1240d119.2a0d9033_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/10/02 12:26:17 PM Central Daylight Time, sarah_whitman_young@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > To get back to the sci-fi side of these issues... There are many, many, > books that posit various different places for sex within society. Anyone > want to talk about those, and wander away from the debate discussion? > > --Sarah > > The one that springs to my mind first are the LPSTs on Beta Colony of the Vorkosigan books of Bujold. Licensed Practical Sexual Therapists. I loved the bits and pieces she includes about Beta sexual norms, but as they are used mostly to contrast to Barrayar's patriarchal norms, we don't get a lot of it. On Beta sex education starts early, and when a person wishes to begin exploring their sexuality they take a course on the physiological and social aspects, and a girl gets her hymen cut under local anesthesia, and you can hire a LPST for your first sexual encounters. Wouldn't THAT have made our teen years so much easier? Lou --part1_109.1240d119.2a0d9033_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/10/02 12:26:17 PM Central Daylight Time, sarah_whitman_young@HOTMAIL.COM writes:


To get back to the sci-fi side of these issues...  There are many, many,
books that posit various different places for sex within society.  Anyone
want to talk about those, and wander away from the debate discussion?

--Sarah



The one that springs to my mind first are the LPSTs on Beta Colony of the Vorkosigan books of Bujold. Licensed Practical Sexual Therapists. I loved the bits and pieces she includes about Beta sexual norms, but as they are used mostly to contrast to Barrayar's patriarchal norms, we don't get a lot of it. On Beta sex education starts early, and when a person wishes to begin exploring their sexuality they take a course on the physiological and social aspects, and a girl gets her hymen cut under local anesthesia, and you can hire a LPST for your first sexual encounters.
Wouldn't THAT have made our teen years so much easier?

Lou
--part1_109.1240d119.2a0d9033_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 07:58:37 +1000 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: OT discussion of sex work Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 1:24 PM -0400 10/5/02, Sarah Young wrote: >if we >had a society where prostitutes were respected in the manner that therapists >and counselors are (a therapist is not your friend, a prostitute is not your >lover, but both types of professionals can be helpful in a variety of >circumstances), that's what I'd be doing in a hot minute. I would love to >be able to specialize in hands-on sexuality education; help people learn, >increase their confidence, etc. Unfortunately, the legal and social stigma >around sexuality, especially sexuality in a professional setting, makes it >very difficult to foster the kind of mutual respect and healthy interaction >that's necessary for doing that work. Intrigued here, and thinking of courtesans in Japanese and European Renaissance societies, and sacred prostitutes - women who were too independently minded for marriage often became courtesans (or nuns), and include some of Japan's greatest poets. Even so, this is still in the context of extremely patriachal soceities. For all the benefits conferred on feminism by capitalism (and I'd be extremely cautious about uncritically embracing it as an enlightening factor, capitalism being most emphatically an amoral force) I think it's important to remember the contemporary phenomena of prostitution - sex slavery in the Balkans, international paedophilia, lap dnacing down the local pub and so on - is driven by an extremely profitable global market. It's a degradation and exploitation of bodies - male and female - I see on par with environmental destruction. Best Alison -- "The only real revolt is the revolt against war." Albert Camus Alison Croggon Home page http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/ Masthead Online http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 18:05:24 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Rachel Wild Subject: Re: OT discussion of sex work Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_50.b41fd6c.2a0d9e24_boundary" --part1_50.b41fd6c.2a0d9e24_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From: Rachel Wild > >For me to sell your body may be a necesity or a limited choice [how many of >our choices in this society are truly free] but I believe that to *buy* >access to anothers body first or second hand through porn etc. is a form of >enslavement. > >ByeBye >Rachel > > Here's an interesting example/question for you. I'm a patient-instructor. This means that, generally about twice a week, I get naked and show my cervix to med students/nursing students. I get paid. They pay for my services. They do breast exams, speculum exams, bimanual exams, and rectovaginal exams. Twice, each session, because I'm usually working with two students. I actually enjoy this work. I find it rewarding. I find it entertaining (they're usually insanely nervous because it's generally their first time doing these exams). There are days I'd rather stay home and read, and there are days I'm really psyched to go. Is this ok, because they're inserting devices and fingers into all my orifices in a non-sexual manner (although frequently clumsy) manner? Or am I being enslaved? --Sarah I don't know why feminists still want to tear each other to pieces on this issue and I have not made any complex arguments on this list - I wished only to say what I feel. I don't want to get into this on the list as I believe many sides of this argument are well known by most of the participants. I feel the emotional stakes on this issue are too high to argue on the 'single channel' medium of email [i.e. no body language and other non -verbal cues. I appreciate this list because it explores possibilities through the metaphors of Sci-Fi, to me the exploration of possibilities without meta-narrative, thus women [and men] of different feminisms can participate together and challenge each other with new ideas. FWIW I think the power dynamics in the situation you describe are different from those most frequently present in sex-'work' situations. [no situation in this world is free from the *possibility* of 'power-over' - also to say a situation is enslavement is not to belittle in *any way* those you propose may be in this situation - that's the whole point of saying it in the first place] With respect ByeBye Rachel --part1_50.b41fd6c.2a0d9e24_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From: Rachel Wild <Wildseed13@AOL.COM>
>
>For me to sell your body may be a necesity or a limited choice [how many of
>our choices in this society are truly free] but I believe that to *buy*
>access to anothers body first or second hand through porn etc. is a form of
>enslavement.
>
>ByeBye
>Rachel
>
>
Here's an interesting example/question for you.  I'm a patient-instructor.
This means that, generally about twice a week, I get naked and show my
cervix to med students/nursing students.  I get paid.  They pay for my
services.  They do breast exams, speculum exams, bimanual exams, and
rectovaginal exams.  Twice, each session, because I'm usually working with
two students.  I actually enjoy this work.  I find it rewarding.  I find it
entertaining (they're usually insanely nervous because it's generally their
first time doing these exams).  There are days I'd rather stay home and
read, and there are days I'm really psyched to go.  Is this ok, because
they're inserting devices and fingers into all my orifices in a non-sexual
manner (although frequently clumsy) manner?  Or am I being enslaved?

--Sarah

I don't know why feminists still want to tear each other to pieces on this issue and I have not made any complex arguments on this list - I wished only to say what I feel. I don't want to get into this on the list as I believe many sides of this argument are well known by most of the participants.
I feel the emotional stakes on this issue are too high to argue on the 'single channel' medium of email [i.e. no body language and other non -verbal cues.

I appreciate this list because it explores possibilities through the metaphors of Sci-Fi, to me the exploration of possibilities without meta-narrative, thus women [and men] of different feminisms can participate together and challenge each other with new ideas.

FWIW I think the power dynamics in the situation you describe are different from those most frequently present in sex-'work' situations. [no situation in this world is free from the *possibility* of 'power-over' - also to say a situation is enslavement is not to belittle in *any way* those you propose may be in this situation - that's the whole point of saying it in the first place]

With respect
ByeBye
Rachel --part1_50.b41fd6c.2a0d9e24_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 22:24:02 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Joanie Bassler Subject: Re: please participate! Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_119.116da23b.2a107dc2_boundary" --part1_119.116da23b.2a107dc2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Feminism and Science Fiction Survey Gender: Female Age (optional): 37 1. How many science fiction works (short stories, novels, fan fiction, etc.) do you read per year? I have slowed down significantly. Soft SF: 3 Fantasy: 3 REAL (Hardcore) SF: 1 maybe. 2. Who are some of your favorite authors?Fantasy - Marion Zimmer Bradley, Chris Ann Wolfe, CJ Cherryh, Elizabeth Moon. SF - Elisabeth Vonarburg, Melissa Scott, Elizabeth Moon, Laura Adams. 3. Do you ever visualize yoursef as a male character in science fiction works? If so, what characteristics about these men do you identify with and/or admire? I think this depends on the writing style and whether or not the book is written in first second or third person. It depends on whether the "voice" of the narrator is one that I can fall into. If the character is honorable-at-heart: meaning even if they do things I disagree with, they are trying to be "good" do what is right. I do not read many books by male authors, except Dune and Starship Troopers, and I didn't project myself into either of these books. 4. Do you ever visualize yoursef as a female character in science fiction works? If so, what characteristics about these women do you identify with and/or admire? Sometimes, but again it would depend on the narrator's voice. My answer is the same whether the character is male or female. The character has to be a "good and honorable" character, trying to do what is right. The character is troubled by evils or wrong-doing, and is basically trying to do things right, make things right. 5. How do you believe women are typically portrayed in science fiction works? Women characters have changed a lot in the last fifteen years or so, I think. I'm not an expert, but there seems to be many more female heroes. They were non-existant in the earlier works or so flat that they might as well have been non-existant. I noticed that in the films of the 60s and 70s they were the biologists or daughters of some key male scientist, they were needing to be saved or freed. Now more and more women are main characters. As the number of "out" women writers increase, so do the female characters. More women warriors, space travelers, scientists, and magic users -- no longer just the damsel in distress, wicked witch, or old wise woman. 6. Who do you believe creates more realistic female characters: female authors, male authors, neither, or both? I don't know. 7. Do you believe that science fiction is an appropriate genre to explore feminist issues? Of course. Unlike other genres SF allows a writer to create an entire new world with new rules, exaggerate rules of social order, make new and different taboos. With SF you can analyze our society, our reality, in the guise of another world's reality. Does that make sense? I think other genres deal with exploring such issues as well, but they are not as free as SF can be. 8. Do you enjoy feminist science fiction? Yes. 9. Would you like to see more, less, or the same amount of feminist science fiction works published in the future? MORE, more, more...silly question. :) --part1_119.116da23b.2a107dc2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Feminism and Science Fiction Survey

Gender:  Female
Age (optional):  37

1. How many science fiction works (short stories, novels, fan
fiction, etc.) do you read per year? I have slowed down significantly.  Soft SF: 3   Fantasy: 3   REAL (Hardcore) SF: 1 maybe.

2. Who are some of your favorite authors?Fantasy - Marion Zimmer Bradley, Chris Ann Wolfe, CJ Cherryh, Elizabeth Moon.  SF - Elisabeth Vonarburg, Melissa Scott, Elizabeth Moon, Laura Adams.

3. Do you ever visualize yoursef as a male character in science
fiction works? If so, what characteristics about these men do you
identify with and/or admire?    I think this depends on the writing style and whether or not the book is written in first second or third person.  It depends on whether the "voice" of the narrator is one that I can fall into.  If the character is honorable-at-heart: meaning even if they do things I disagree with, they are trying to be "good" do what is right.  I do not read many books by male authors, except Dune and Starship Troopers, and I didn't project myself into either of these books.

4. Do you ever visualize yoursef as a female character in science
fiction works? If so, what characteristics about these women do you
identify with and/or admire?  Sometimes, but again it would depend on the narrator's voice.  My answer is the same whether the character is male or female.  The character has to be a "good and honorable" character, trying to do what is right.  The character is troubled by evils or wrong-doing, and is basically trying to do things right, make things right.  

5. How do you believe women are typically portrayed in science
fiction works?  Women characters have changed a lot in the last fifteen years or so, I think.  I'm not an expert, but there seems to be many more female heroes.  They were non-existant in the earlier works or so flat that they might as well have been non-existant.  I noticed that in the films of the 60s and 70s they were the biologists or daughters of some key male scientist, they were needing to be saved or freed. Now more and more women are main characters.  As the number of "out" women writers increase, so do the female characters. More women warriors, space travelers, scientists, and magic users  -- no longer just the damsel in distress, wicked witch, or old wise woman.

6. Who do you believe creates more realistic female characters:
female authors, male authors, neither, or both?  I don't know.  

7. Do you believe that science fiction is an appropriate genre to
explore feminist issues?  Of course.  Unlike other genres SF allows a writer to create an entire new world with new rules, exaggerate rules of social order, make new and different taboos.  With SF you can analyze our society, our reality, in the guise of another world's reality.  Does that make sense?  I think other genres deal with exploring such issues as well, but they are not as free as SF can be.

8. Do you enjoy feminist science fiction?  Yes.

9. Would you like to see more, less, or the same amount of feminist
science fiction works published in the future?  MORE, more, more...silly question.  :)

--part1_119.116da23b.2a107dc2_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 17:00:12 -0400 Reply-To: carey.fontaine@lycos.com Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Carey S Fontaine Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Women's language abilities Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF,fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ahem. Two things: (1) Why is the subject of women in porn "Women's language abilities!" Women only talk with their bodies? There's not much talk in some sex work. Women don't use their minds? I'd like better subject post. (2) Some expert feminist sci-fi reader must know of short story(s) or novel(s) that deals (plot) with the topic of women in porn which is equal to men in sports! The symbolism of body-work, potential for injury, exploitation by those with $$ to pay for it, gender sterotypical work boundaries are too many to ignore. I am a male feminist by the way. I read volumes of women's words on all these subjects and obtained a women's studies certificate (33 cr hrs) from a university. Hope this put subject back on track. I think porn is ok by the way. I respect the women in porn. Carey S. Fontaine -- On Wed, 8 May 2002 21:33:03 Margaret Poore wrote: >I too would like to get on the list that IS talking about the book......if >this is the ON topic list, why all this pornography discussion? > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ________________________________________________________ Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get a 25MB Inbox, POP3 Access, No Ads and No Taglines with LYCOS MAIL PLUS. http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 18:41:18 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Rachel Wild Subject: Subject headings + women/ sport/ pornography Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_8b.182001ca.2a119b0e_boundary" --part1_8b.182001ca.2a119b0e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, perhaps we can use better subject headings to keep track of the way these debates move on ... the subject of language abilities delved off in all sorts of directions and it might help people who want to look at the archives I imagine. On the parallels between sport and pornography in Sci Fi [or probably more correctly prostitution] I can think of a couple of parallels - one of course is the characters Daya the pet fem in 'Walk to the ends of the world/ motherlines' and the Runner [?name] - both women enslaved and trained for very particular uses of their bodies. The other is Isis(?) in 'Fifth sacred thing' who is an ex-enslaved athlete, bred for extreme sport entertainment for a male elite. Isis has become a pirate and very autonomous character by the time we meet her in this book but she has been physically habituated to various hormones by her previous 'owners' [parallels with the experience of many prostitutes and various drugs]. Also if I remember rightly Isis mentions links between her Self having been an athlete and having been bought for sexual use. As to the comment "I think porn is ok by the way. I respect the women in porn." is a contradiction in terms - I think if you truly respect women in porn you learn to hate the porn industry. I don't think the parallels of men in sport and women in porn/prostitution in our current times are accurate - though the themes about use of the body do connect in speculative fiction. I can see some similarities e.g. in boxing where [predominantly Black] men from backgrounds of poverty use [and are used in] sport as a way out, many being very damaged in the process - for what? entertainment? However I do strongly feel there is something specific about sexual [ab]use of women in prostitution etc. that has no direct parallels with any other type of human activity. ByeBye Rachel --part1_8b.182001ca.2a119b0e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, perhaps we can use better subject headings to keep track of the way these debates move on ... the subject of language abilities delved off in all sorts of directions and it might help people who want to look at the archives I imagine.

On the parallels between sport and pornography in Sci Fi [or probably more correctly prostitution] I can think of a couple of parallels - one of course is the characters Daya the pet fem in 'Walk to the ends of the world/ motherlines' and the Runner [?name] - both women enslaved and trained for very particular uses of their bodies. The other is Isis(?) in 'Fifth sacred thing' who is an ex-enslaved athlete, bred for extreme sport entertainment for a male elite. Isis has become a pirate and very autonomous character by the time we meet her in this book but she has been physically habituated to various hormones by her previous 'owners' [parallels with the experience of many prostitutes and various drugs]. Also if I remember rightly Isis mentions links between her Self having been an athlete and having been bought for sexual use.

As to the comment "I think porn is ok by the way.  I respect the women in porn." is a contradiction in terms - I think if you truly respect women in porn you learn to hate the porn industry.

I don't think the parallels of men in sport and women in porn/prostitution in our current times are accurate - though the themes about use of the body do connect in speculative fiction. I can see some similarities e.g. in boxing where [predominantly Black] men from backgrounds of poverty use [and are used in] sport as a way out, many being very damaged in the process - for what? entertainment?
However I do strongly feel there is something specific about sexual [ab]use of women in prostitution etc. that has no direct parallels with any other type of human activity.

ByeBye
Rachel

--part1_8b.182001ca.2a119b0e_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 21:40:52 -0400 Reply-To: judithberman@earthlink.net Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Judith Berman Subject: Spectrum Awards Recommendations Wanted Urgently Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Gates" Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 10:15 AM Subject: Gaylactic Network Spectrum Awards - Recommendations Wanted Urgently Greetings, I need your help. My name is Rob Gates, and I served as Administrator for the Gaylactic Network Spectrum Awards from 1999-2001. Due to some recent changes in the Gaylactic Network, and the resignation of the new Administrator due to external circumstances, I've been asked to handle the Gaylactic Network Spectrum Awards again for 2002. The Spectrum Awards are given to recognize works in science fiction, fantasy and horror which deal positively with characters, issues, or themes of special interest to gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender readers/viewers. Normally, we would have been through an open nomination process and would be just about to distribute a list of our finalists for the year at this point, but unfortunately we're starting from square one at this late date. This year the Spectrum Awards judges will review recommendations and release a "short list" of finalists after a brief discussion of recommendations. I hope to have this announcement of finalists prepared by the first week in June at the latest. Clearly, the judges will not have read or seen all the works being recommended, so we'll be relying on the commentaries we receive from recommenders as guides. Here's how you can help.. Please email me, rgates@wavelengthsonline.com, with any recommendations you have for works originally released/shown in 2001 which meet the criteria mentioned above. Include in your recommendation a brief (no more than a short paragraph necessary, but more is welcome) description of why you feel the work is worthy of consideration for the Spectrum Awards. Works can include novels, short stories, anthologies, collections, movies, television series, television specials/movies, comic books, and more - any work of relevance to the science fiction, fantasy or horror field in any form. You're welcome and encouraged to send multiple recommendations, and as much information as you can provide (title, author, publisher, producer, distributor, etc) will be helpful. Recommendations must be received by Wednesday, May 29th for consideration. You may certainly recommend your own work if you are an author/creator. Thank you very much for your help! Please feel free and encouraged to redistribute this email to any list, group, or person who you feel would be interested in the Spectrum Awards. Just be sure to include the letter in its entirety. - Rob Gates Administrator, Gaylactic Network Spectrum Awards -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 21:00:38 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Women's language abilities / Native Tongue / Porn Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >On Wed, 8 May 2002 21:33:03 > Margaret Poore wrote: > >I too would like to get on the list that IS talking about the book......if > >this is the ON topic list, why all this pornography discussion? A central issue in Native Tongue is the oppression of women. This topic is an outgrowth and narrowing of a general discussion of women's oppression in our culture. It hasn't been closely held to the culture depicted by Elgin in her book since this is, after all, the off topic portion of the list. Nonetheless, it is generally related to the book in that it forms a commentary on the background from which Elgin wrote. You may have noticed that Elgin is not particularly enamored of the empathetic abilities of her male Linguists and singularly unimpressed with their perspicuity as well. The women of the Lines are treated by the men largely as brood mares, and their dismissal to the Barren Houses symbolic of their male-centric "worthlessness" after their sexual fertility is past. At 05:00 PM 5/13/02 -0400, Carey S Fontaine wrote: >Ahem. Two things: >(1) Why is the subject of women in porn "Women's language >abilities!" Women only talk with their bodies? There's not much talk in >some sex work. Women don't use their minds? I'd like better subject post. It has that subject header for historical reasons and no one bothered to change it as the topic evolved and mutated. If you follow this thread back, you'll easily see the reason for the original title and how it evolved over time. >(2) Some expert feminist sci-fi reader must know of short story(s) or >novel(s) that deals (plot) with the topic of women in porn which is equal >to men in sports! Body work is not sex work, and sports is not sex either, however one slices it. In the USA, the average age of entry into prostitution for girls is 12 or 13. In places like Southeast Asia, the average age drops to 6-8 years old. Although there is an "elite" group of "call girls" who are nominally prostitutes, they constitute a very small minority of prostitutes and are not in any way typical or representative, despite being over-represented in literature and film. Likewise, porn "actresses" are a very small minority, and are not representative, although they too are paid for sexual acts and therefore at least nominally prostitutes. The sex "industry" is far more abusive of girls and women than *any* sport is abusive of the men who play. Indeed, the notion that there is an equivalence is almost as pathetic as "couvade," by which males attempt to pretend that their symbolic "suffering" is worse than that of their wives in pregnancy and birth. This is hardly surprising, however, as I've heard many men report that they now knew exactly how it felt to be raped after their cars had been burgled. This level of empathy and insight fits exactly into Elgin's general worldview. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 03:52:01 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Laura J. Mixon" Subject: Re: Women's language abilities / Native Tongue / Porn Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020513202146.029ff100@www.leeanne.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 5/13/02 11:00 PM, Lee Anne Phillips at leeanne@LEEANNE.COM wrote: > The sex "industry" > is far more abusive of girls and women than *any* sport is abusive > of the men who play. Indeed, the notion that there is an equivalence > is almost as pathetic as "couvade," by which males attempt to pretend > that their symbolic "suffering" is worse than that of their wives in > pregnancy and birth. This is hardly surprising, however, as I've > heard many men report that they now knew exactly how it felt to be > raped after their cars had been burgled. This level of empathy > and insight fits exactly into Elgin's general worldview. An excellent post, Lee Anne, and I appreciate your reminder of the abuse and oppression that girls and women undergo who fall into that void. -l. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 02:06:44 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Subject headings + women/ sport/ pornography Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <200205140104.177uue6x3Nl3pa0@farley.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Rachel Wild > I don't think the parallels of men in sport and women in > porn/prostitution in our current times are accurate - though the > themes about use of the body do connect in speculative fiction. I can > see some similarities e.g. in boxing where [predominantly Black] men > from backgrounds of poverty use [and are used in] sport as a way out, > many being very damaged in the process - for what? entertainment? > However I do strongly feel there is something specific about sexual > [ab]use of women in prostitution etc. that has no direct parallels > with any other type of human activity. Except of course, the (ab)use of men in the exact same activities. Both from living in LA, and from the fact that my best friend works with homeless youth, I've seen that the number of men engaged in prostitution is not small. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 08:00:12 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Subject headings + women/ sport/ pornography Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:06 AM 5/14/02 -0700, John Snead wrote: >Rachel Wild > > > I don't think the parallels of men in sport and women in > > porn/prostitution in our current times are accurate - though the > > themes about use of the body do connect in speculative fiction. I can > > see some similarities e.g. in boxing where [predominantly Black] men > > from backgrounds of poverty use [and are used in] sport as a way out, > > many being very damaged in the process - for what? entertainment? > > However I do strongly feel there is something specific about sexual > > [ab]use of women in prostitution etc. that has no direct parallels > > with any other type of human activity. > >Except of course, the (ab)use of men in the exact same activities. >Both from living in LA, and from the fact that my best friend works >with homeless youth, I've seen that the number of men engaged in >prostitution is not small. Of course, although the total number of males involved *is* small in proportion to the number of females, the backgrounds of male prostitutes, especially minors, are similar to that of females, with abuse (both physical and sexual) and neglect being the common denominator. I believe that there is some over-representation of gay males, lesbians, and other gender minorities among these abused children, perhaps because criminal abuse and neglect are common sequelae of gender-nonconformity. The parallels are not exact, however, as the complete spectrum of prostituted females is not really present among males, the "higher" end of call girls and brothels being relatively rare. And some countries institutionalize the exploitation of female children, such as Japan, for example, where in Tokyo the phenomenon of older men having sex with 12 year old girls is both common and legal. And the prostitution of children to support the drug habits of adult family members disproportionately targets young girls. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:10:06 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Rachel Wild Subject: Re: Women's language abilities / Native Tongue / Porn Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_124.10b7fc98.2a129eee_boundary" --part1_124.10b7fc98.2a129eee_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "This is hardly surprising, however, as I've > heard many men report that they now knew exactly how it felt to be > raped after their cars had been burgled. This level of empathy > and insight fits exactly into Elgin's general worldview." ...Quite Bye R --part1_124.10b7fc98.2a129eee_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "This is hardly surprising, however, as I've
> heard many men report that they now knew exactly how it felt to be
> raped after their cars had been burgled. This level of empathy
> and insight fits exactly into Elgin's general worldview."

...Quite

Bye
R


--part1_124.10b7fc98.2a129eee_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:13:43 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Rachel Wild Subject: Re: Subject headings + women/ sport/ pornography Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_135.e4fad96.2a129fc7_boundary" --part1_135.e4fad96.2a129fc7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "> However I do strongly feel there is something specific about sexual > [ab]use of women in prostitution etc. that has no direct parallels > with any other type of human activity. Except of course, the (ab)use of men in the exact same activities. Both from living in LA, and from the fact that my best friend works with homeless youth, I've seen that the number of men engaged in prostitution is not small." ...Yes this is the case - and it's also worth recognising how many of these men are being [ab]used by other men. Bye R --part1_135.e4fad96.2a129fc7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "> However I do strongly feel there is something specific about sexual
> [ab]use of women in prostitution etc. that has no direct parallels
> with any other type of human activity.

Except of course, the (ab)use of men in the exact same activities.
Both from living in LA, and from the fact that my best friend works
with homeless youth, I've seen that the number of men engaged in
prostitution is not small."

...Yes this is the case - and it's also worth recognising how many of these men are being [ab]used by other men.

Bye
R

--part1_135.e4fad96.2a129fc7_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:35:47 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Rachel Wild Subject: Re: Subject headings + women/ sport/ pornography Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_122.112da0a1.2a12a4f3_boundary" --part1_122.112da0a1.2a12a4f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "I believe that there is some over-representation of gay males, lesbians, and other gender minorities among these abused children, perhaps because criminal abuse and neglect are common sequelae of gender-nonconformity." One of the causal factors of this phenomenon/experience is the high rates of= =20 homelessness among LGB young people. The children's society in the UK has done interesting work on the=20 prostitution of young women and young men - though I don't know its=20 availability online. I have also always been very uncomfortable about many Gay men's blas=E9=20 attitudes to the issue of 'rent boys' - and the institutionalisation of sex=20 'work' in gay cultures. My own experiences of my peers coming out in the 1980s in the UK was that=20 young men routinely 'rented' as a form of initiation into the scene and as a= =20 way to financially keep up with the demands of gay-status re: clothes,=20 clubbing, drugs etc. [of course non-gay young men are also 'rent boys' but within this same=20 general framework] Many men who [ab]use 'rent boys' consider themselves heterosexual - but many= =20 patriarchal types of behaviour around the use of others' bodies, power=20 inequality fetishisation etc. are prevalent in commercial Gay scenes. This issue is one that is underdeveloped in 'Native Tongue' - the status=20 differences between men of different classes and the status of gay men in=20 this society, especially in the lines where the continuation of family and=20 maintenance of machismo is so marked. From what I remember the issue of=20 'homosexuality' and lesbianism in particular are not well discussed [ is thi= s=20 the case?] But perhaps it is unreasonable to expect all aspects of oppression to be=20 explored in one book - it does however seem a historical omission,=20 considering when the book was written. I do think these themes are well considered in the Holdfast society in 'walk= =20 to the ends of the world' - where the sexual abuse of young men is part of=20 the societal set up of a patriarchy based on the subhuman status of women -=20 thus homosexuality is the norm but it is only countenanced in particular=20 generational alignments and class patterns [the Rovers - a drugged warrior=20 caste are considered off limits for example]. in the reality of the book=20 these 'taboos' are often broken - often in the abuse of young men. Bye Rachel --part1_122.112da0a1.2a12a4f3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "I believe that there is=20= some over-representation of
gay males, lesbians, and other gender minorities among these
abused children, perhaps because criminal abuse and neglect are
common sequelae of gender-nonconformity."

One of the causal factors of this phenomenon/experience is the high rate= s of homelessness among LGB young people.
The children's society in the UK has done interesting work on the prosti= tution of young women and young men - though I don't know its availability o= nline.

I have also always been very uncomfortable about many Gay men's blas=E9=20= attitudes to the issue of 'rent boys' - and the institutionalisation of sex=20= 'work' in gay cultures.
My own experiences of my peers coming out in the 1980s in the UK was tha= t young men routinely 'rented' as a form of initiation into the scene and as= a way to financially keep up with the demands of gay-status re: clothes, cl= ubbing, drugs etc.
[of course non-gay young men are also 'rent boys' but within this same g= eneral framework]
Many men who [ab]use 'rent boys' consider themselves heterosexual - but=20= many patriarchal types of behaviour around the use of others' bodies, power=20= inequality fetishisation etc. are prevalent in commercial Gay scenes.

This issue is one that is underdeveloped in 'Native Tongue' - the status= differences between men of different classes and the status of gay men in t= his society, especially in the lines where the continuation of family and ma= intenance of machismo is so marked. From what I remember the issue of 'homos= exuality' and lesbianism in particular are not well discussed [ is this the=20= case?]

But perhaps it is unreasonable to expect all aspects of oppression to be= explored in one book - it does however seem a historical omission, consider= ing when the book was written.

I do think these themes are well considered in the Holdfast society in '= walk to the ends of the world' - where the sexual abuse of young men is part= of the societal set up of a patriarchy based on the subhuman status of wome= n - thus homosexuality is the norm but it is only countenanced in particular= generational alignments and class patterns [the Rovers - a drugged warrior=20= caste are considered off limits for example]. in the reality of the book the= se 'taboos' are often broken - often in the abuse of young men.

Bye
Rachel

--part1_122.112da0a1.2a12a4f3_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:46:10 -0400 Reply-To: carey.fontaine@lycos.com Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Carey S Fontaine Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Men/boys in sports industry Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF,fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lee Ann Phillips wrote: "The sex "industry" is far more abusive of girls and women than *any* sport is abusive of the men who play." Boys start playing sports around the same age little girls enter the sex industry! I'm not sure why the parallel nature of women in sex industry and men in sports industry cannot be explored in sci-fi. If fiction is not a place to examine our society then what forum is? I never said the match was exact. Of course, sports is legal and that helps alot. Yes, men would be respected more in patriarchial culture, no matter what they do. Yes, the underbelly of sports is not revealed. It seems all these athletes live on in heavenly bliss. And perhaps, it takes a deeper history of sports from the female audience to appreciate the symbolic, if not direct links. The pressure for women in the extreme (women in the sex industry) is comparable to the pressure for men in the extreme (men in the sports industry). Or said differently, the ultimate woman is a completely sexual feminine woman. The ultimate man is a completely masculine macho man. Again, any sci-fi books explore this topic? ________________________________________________________ Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get a 25MB Inbox, POP3 Access, No Ads and No Taglines with LYCOS MAIL PLUS. http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:00:30 -0400 Reply-To: carey.fontaine@lycos.com Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Carey S Fontaine Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Menboys in sports industry Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF,fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the sci-fi books Rachel. You're awesome! Just got to this email. As for respecting women/girls, I filter out the negative implications of sex/porn/prostitution advertisements. For example, if ad says she is "cock-sucking bitch." I think well, she is female and probably sucks cock. If she is a full-free woman she might be "bitch" in positive way, going back to the ancient female use of that term. Then I think, well there's nothing wrong with a sexual woman. A lot of the negative wording in porn/prostitution/sex industry goes back to language. Few negative words for males exist. Maybe women should make up some. Indeed cosmo finds this an amusing line of thought. :)) But not to distract the reader: Filtering is part of our Goddess-given mind abilities. Men don't use them when viewing porn or women's lives as much as they should, but I do. Information may come to our minds, but we have the responsibility of interpreting that information, filtering the negative out. I don't throw the pretty woman soul out with the negative sex industry advertisement bath water. :) Filtering with our minds is a must and with filtering and humane prostitution, for example legalizing it, would make things easier for women/girls. I thought Ayn Rand partially tackled women/girls in sex industry --Men/boys in sports industry (albeit was labor) in Anthem I believe. Carey S. Fontaine ________________________________________________________ Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get a 25MB Inbox, POP3 Access, No Ads and No Taglines with LYCOS MAIL PLUS. http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:23:49 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Priscilla H. Ballou" Subject: Re: Subject headings + women/ sport/ pornography Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rachel Wild wrote: > Many men who [ab]use 'rent boys' consider themselves heterosexual - > but many patriarchal types of behaviour around the use of others' > bodies, power inequality fetishisation etc. are prevalent in > commercial Gay scenes. These men sound to me like hebephiles, not gay. Priscilla -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:27:34 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lori Selke Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Men/boys in sports industry Comments: To: Carey S Fontaine Comments: cc: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 14 May 2002, Carey S Fontaine wrote: > I never said the match was exact. Of course, sports is legal and that helps > alot. Many forms of sex work are legal, too. Acting in a pornographic film, or appearing in a still photo shoot, for example. Or professional domination work (although some pro-doms do not consider themselves sex workers). Or stripping and peep shows. There's a variety of activity that falls under the category "sex work" that isn't prostitution, in other words. Sex work isn't just a euphemism for prostitution, and conflating the two will lead to problems. Which isn't to say that Carey was (or wasn't) engaged in such a conflation, but I have noticed a trend toward it in this discussion in general. Lori -- selk@io.com, selk@sirius.com, http://www.io.com/~selk "This is no time of remorse. This is a time for cookies!" --Love and Rockets -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:52:49 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Priscilla H. Ballou" Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Men/boys insportsindustry Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lori Selke wrote: > On Tue, 14 May 2002, Carey S Fontaine wrote: > > > I never said the match was exact. Of course, sports is legal and that helps > > alot. > > Many forms of sex work are legal, too. Acting in a pornographic film, > or appearing in a still photo shoot, for example. Or professional > domination work (although some pro-doms do not consider themselves > sex workers). Or stripping and peep shows. > > There's a variety of activity that falls under the category "sex work" > that isn't prostitution, in other words. Sex work isn't just a > euphemism for prostitution, and conflating the two will lead to > problems. Prostitution is legal in some countries and, in the US, in some states. (At least Nevada. Any others?) Priscilla -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:22:07 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lori Selke Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Men/boys insportsindustry Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <3CE15D01.4079A677@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 14 May 2002, Priscilla H. Ballou wrote: > Prostitution is legal in some countries and, in the US, in some states. (At > least Nevada. Any others?) I believe Nevada is the only state where any form of prostitution is legal. In Nevada, only prostitution in brothels is permitted (and only in counties with a population of less than 200,000, i.e. not in Reno or Las Vegas). There's certainly a lot of illegal prostitution activity in Nevada as well. Nevada's regulation of prostitution is an interesting example, actually. Women who work legally, in the brothels, work under a great deal of restriction. They pay out a lot of fees to the house and to the government; they work long shifts (some are on call 24 hours a day) and are often required to live on the premises. It's a good example of how legalizing an industry (any industry) doesn't make it fair or free from exploitation. This is one of the reasons why some activists are now advocating for decriminalization of prostitution, rather than legalization. I think it's also another place that's ripe with speculative fiction possibilities, too. Lori -- selk@io.com, selk@sirius.com, http://www.io.com/~selk "This is no time of remorse. This is a time for cookies!" --Love and Rockets -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:49:32 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Priscilla H. Ballou" Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Men/boysinsportsindustry Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lori Selke wrote: > On Tue, 14 May 2002, Priscilla H. Ballou wrote: > > > Prostitution is legal in some countries and, in the US, in some states. (At > > least Nevada. Any others?) > > I believe Nevada is the only state where any form of prostitution is legal. > In Nevada, only prostitution in brothels is permitted (and only in counties > with a population of less than 200,000, i.e. not in Reno or Las Vegas). > There's certainly a lot of illegal prostitution activity in Nevada as well. > > Nevada's regulation of prostitution is an interesting example, > actually. Women who work legally, in the brothels, work under a > great deal of restriction. They pay out a lot of fees to the house > and to the government; they work long shifts (some are on call 24 > hours a day) and are often required to live on the premises. It's a > good example of how legalizing an industry (any industry) doesn't make > it fair or free from exploitation. This is one of the reasons why some > activists are now advocating for decriminalization of prostitution, > rather than legalization. I think it's also another place that's > ripe with speculative fiction possibilities, too. Interesting. I tend to forget about the difference between decriminalization and legalization. Can you remind me of those details? (I've got the issue of recreational drugs on my brain about this, too, although that's off topic for this list.) Where brothels are legal in NV, I wonder if any are owned by women. I know that if I remembered every SF or fantasy book I'd ever read I could expound on several cases of this topic making its way in, but unfortunately, my middle-aged brain prefers to be quite selective about what it retains these days. BTW, is this mailing list archived anywhere? I missed a few days of heavy traffic due to being in Vermont helping my elderly mother pack for the move to a retirement home which, I gather from phone calls in the past hour, is now successfully completed. Tomorrow the truck comes down here with my share of the stuff from the family home which she just broke up. I should go back upstairs and do some more work on my bedroom, where my lovely wooden bed and another bureau will be installed tomorrow. Priscilla -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 17:48:31 -0400 Reply-To: carey.fontaine@lycos.com Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Carey S Fontaine Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Men/boys insportsindustry Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF,fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmmm, I enter discussion on porn "writing about prostitutes," but the loose association of porn equals all nude sex work, pictures, films, etc is well documented in the public minds. :) Even billboard advertising might be considered sex work. It's all based on body-work pathways similar to sports body work. One could even say sex-work is sports-work. The sport of making love. Again, if women have beauty for this work, make millions. I don't care. A pinch of illegalism seems associated with sex work in our culture. I like to see sci-fi examine these two physical expressions of work. Carey S. Fontaine -- On Tue, 14 May 2002 13:27:34 Lori Selke wrote: >On Tue, 14 May 2002, Carey S Fontaine wrote: > >> I never said the match was exact. Of course, sports is legal and that helps >> alot. > >Many forms of sex work are legal, too. Acting in a pornographic film, >or appearing in a still photo shoot, for example. Or professional >domination work (although some pro-doms do not consider themselves >sex workers). Or stripping and peep shows. > >There's a variety of activity that falls under the category "sex work" >that isn't prostitution, in other words. Sex work isn't just a >euphemism for prostitution, and conflating the two will lead to >problems. > >Which isn't to say that Carey was (or wasn't) engaged in such a >conflation, but I have noticed a trend toward it in this discussion >in general. > > >Lori > >-- >selk@io.com, selk@sirius.com, http://www.io.com/~selk > >"This is no time of remorse. This is a time for cookies!" --Love and Rockets > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ________________________________________________________ Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get a 25MB Inbox, POP3 Access, No Ads and No Taglines with LYCOS MAIL PLUS. http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 17:52:35 -0400 Reply-To: carey.fontaine@lycos.com Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Carey S Fontaine Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Men/boysinsportsindustry Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF,fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought generating, Priscilla. Perhaps, some international sci-fi book exist in countries where prostitution is legal? Maybe a search in Publisher Weekly? Any thoughts on how to find sci-fi book with this plot line? Carey S. Fontaine -- On Tue, 14 May 2002 14:52:49 Priscilla H. Ballou wrote: >Lori Selke wrote: > >> On Tue, 14 May 2002, Carey S Fontaine wrote: >> >> > I never said the match was exact. Of course, sports is legal and that helps >> > alot. >> >> Many forms of sex work are legal, too. Acting in a pornographic film, >> or appearing in a still photo shoot, for example. Or professional >> domination work (although some pro-doms do not consider themselves >> sex workers). Or stripping and peep shows. >> >> There's a variety of activity that falls under the category "sex work" >> that isn't prostitution, in other words. Sex work isn't just a >> euphemism for prostitution, and conflating the two will lead to >> problems. > >Prostitution is legal in some countries and, in the US, in some states. (At >least Nevada. Any others?) > >Priscilla > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ________________________________________________________ Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get a 25MB Inbox, POP3 Access, No Ads and No Taglines with LYCOS MAIL PLUS. http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 07:52:21 +1000 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Menboys in sports industry Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I'm told the French word for "bitch", "salop" (sp?) is used by women in both negative and positive ways. Eg: She's a bitch, meaning the colloquial abusive usage, or I'm a bitch, meaning a potent, sexual woman, with no negative connotation. I'm afraid I'm with Lee-Anne with her comments on the sex industry. The commodification of the body (both masculine and feminine) and the resultant reductive materialism is disastrous for human beings. To commodify something as intimate as sexuality is particularly problematic, and illustrates starkly social power relationships precisely where people are most vulnerable. This is why women and young men are in particular at the wrong end of those power relationships (think of male relationships in prison). It bleeds out in the soft porn of the advertising industry, cleavages selling cars and so on, into practically every aspect of our lives. So we're awash with images of sex which are radically alienated from actual sexuality (none of the nakedness on show in magazines in the supermarket looks like the paintings of Lucien Freud, for instance). A ghastly depilated absence. The fake orgasm. The woman as passive consumable item. Where is real sex in all of this, I wonder? I mean, with all its ecstatic light and real darkness and mutual mutability. It's all fluid free, hair free, anaesthetised. The legal drug industry preys on women, making them docile when their psyches rebel against this mundane pornography. I guess you can draw some parallel there with drug use in sports, the victims of EPO &c, who die of heart attacks and liver damage in their 30s in pursuit of a mirage of masculinity... Yes, you can filter all this out, but the culture does that for you in a nice soft focus way, and surely thinking about something includes trying to see what is glamorised out of perception? Best Alison >Thanks for the sci-fi books Rachel. You're awesome! >Just got to this email. > >As for respecting women/girls, I filter out the negative >implications of sex/porn/prostitution advertisements. > >For example, if ad says she is "cock-sucking bitch." I think well, >she is female and probably sucks cock. If she is a full-free woman >she might be "bitch" in positive way, going back to the ancient >female use of that term. Then I think, well there's nothing wrong >with a sexual woman. A lot of the negative wording in >porn/prostitution/sex industry goes back to language. Few negative >words for males exist. Maybe women should make up some. Indeed >cosmo finds this an amusing line of thought. :)) But not to >distract the reader: > >Filtering is part of our Goddess-given mind abilities. Men don't >use them when viewing porn or women's lives as much as they should, >but I do. Information may come to our minds, but we have the >responsibility of interpreting that information, filtering the >negative out. I don't throw the pretty woman soul out with the >negative sex industry advertisement bath water. :) > >Filtering with our minds is a must and with filtering and humane >prostitution, for example legalizing it, would make things easier >for women/girls. > >I thought Ayn Rand partially tackled women/girls in sex industry >--Men/boys in sports industry (albeit was labor) in Anthem I believe. > > >Carey S. Fontaine > > > >________________________________________________________ >Outgrown your current e-mail service? >Get a 25MB Inbox, POP3 Access, No Ads and No Taglines with LYCOS MAIL PLUS. >http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- "The only real revolt is the revolt against war." Albert Camus Alison Croggon Home page http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/ Masthead Online http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 18:03:26 -0400 Reply-To: carey.fontaine@lycos.com Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Carey S S Fontaine Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Men/boysinsportsindustry Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF,fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree Lori, Nevada is no safe haven, because of the basic illegal nature of this work. I saw program on the Mustang Ranch. Hmmm. That was 24/7 type work. This would tend to make person focus on their body a lot. Like sports. Maybe decriminalization. Yet, if decriminalized will erase the stigma. If not, legalize, but humane legalization. Every job goes through a cycle, over work in beginning, then employees want humane conditions. It happened during the industrial revolution and sports too. Carey S. Fontaine -- On Tue, 14 May 2002 14:22:07 Lori Selke wrote: >On Tue, 14 May 2002, Priscilla H. Ballou wrote: > >> Prostitution is legal in some countries and, in the US, in some states. (At >> least Nevada. Any others?) > >I believe Nevada is the only state where any form of prostitution is legal. >In Nevada, only prostitution in brothels is permitted (and only in counties >with a population of less than 200,000, i.e. not in Reno or Las Vegas). >There's certainly a lot of illegal prostitution activity in Nevada as well. > >Nevada's regulation of prostitution is an interesting example, >actually. Women who work legally, in the brothels, work under a >great deal of restriction. They pay out a lot of fees to the house >and to the government; they work long shifts (some are on call 24 >hours a day) and are often required to live on the premises. It's a >good example of how legalizing an industry (any industry) doesn't make >it fair or free from exploitation. This is one of the reasons why some >activists are now advocating for decriminalization of prostitution, >rather than legalization. I think it's also another place that's >ripe with speculative fiction possibilities, too. > > > >Lori > >-- >selk@io.com, selk@sirius.com, http://www.io.com/~selk > >"This is no time of remorse. This is a time for cookies!" --Love and Rockets > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > ________________________________________________________ Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get a 25MB Inbox, POP3 Access, No Ads and No Taglines with LYCOS MAIL PLUS. http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 19:33:46 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Men/boys insportsindustry Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1bc.1d310d4.2a12f8da_boundary" --part1_1bc.1d310d4.2a12f8da_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/14/2002 2:51:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vze23t8n@VERIZON.NET writes: > Prostitution is legal in some countries and, in the US, in some states. (At > least Nevada. Any others?) > > Are you defining prostitution as sex for money or as sex to get ahead at work? Christine --part1_1bc.1d310d4.2a12f8da_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/14/2002 2:51:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vze23t8n@VERIZON.NET writes:


Prostitution is legal in some countries and, in the US, in some states.  (At
least Nevada.  Any others?)



Are you defining prostitution as sex for money or as sex to get ahead at work?

Christine --part1_1bc.1d310d4.2a12f8da_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 18:36:39 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Laura J. Mixon" Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Menboys in sports industry Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 5/14/02 4:52 PM, Alison Croggon at acroggon@BIGPOND.COM wrote: > I'm afraid I'm with Lee-Anne with her comments on the sex industry. > The commodification of the body (both masculine and feminine) and the > resultant reductive materialism is disastrous for human beings. To > commodify something as intimate as sexuality is particularly > problematic, and illustrates starkly social power relationships > precisely where people are most vulnerable. This is why women and > young men are in particular at the wrong end of those power > relationships (think of male relationships in prison). Wow, Alison, that is exactly my view. And very well put. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 21:44:49 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Priscilla H. Ballou" Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Men/boysinsportsindustry Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine Ethier wrote: > In a message dated 5/14/2002 2:51:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vze23t8n@VERIZON.NET writes: > >> Prostitution is legal in some countries and, in the US, in some >> states. (At >> least Nevada. Any others?) > > Are you defining prostitution as sex for money or as sex to get ahead > at work? Ah! Very good question. I had meant exchange of money for sex, but there is a continuum. I wonder. Can one view adhering to "professional dress codes" as a form of prostitution? Putting up with the kind of sexual harassment which isn't far enough over the line to be litigatable? And so on. Or am I stretching it too far? Or is this wandering too off the topic of speculative fiction? Priscilla -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 19:05:36 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Women/girls in sex industry -- Men/boys insportsindustry Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <3CE15D01.4079A677@verizon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:52 PM 5/14/02 -0400, Priscilla H. Ballou wrote: >Prostitution is legal in some countries and, in the US, in some states. (At >least Nevada. Any others?) Only in a few counties in Nevada, not the state as a whole. I believe it's illegal everywhere else in the USA, although the only practical effect of this illegality is that the police regularly shake down prostitutes for money or free sex. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 19:30:23 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Macho Men Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:46 PM 5/14/02 -0400, Carey S Fontaine wrote: >The pressure for women in the extreme (women in the sex industry) is >comparable to the pressure for men in the extreme (men in the sports >industry). Or said differently, the ultimate woman is a completely sexual >feminine woman. The ultimate man is a completely masculine macho man. Henry Kissinger and Donald Trump never had any real problem getting dates so I think this assessment may be a bit naive. In the context of Native Tongue, we see that the most "desirable" men are, in fact, those who are the smartest and most skilled at building constituencies, which is exactly the sort of competencies that make for reproductive "fitness" in our own society. It's only little boys and shallow women who find macho musclemen attractive; most grownup women find competence, success, and personality far more attractive than mere looks. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems.