Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0205D" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 00:42:02 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Patriarchy amongst 'traditional' people Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <200205220112.17aopU7093Nl3rs0@tyner.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sheryl > The belief that human beings are 'naturally' patriarchal, or that we > tend to fall into patriarchal systems because of some 'natural' social > or economic process, is one that we've all been taught--overtly or > covertly--, but that does not turn out to be true. This is a *very* true and incredibly important point that I've seen many people on both sides of such issues forget far too often. In addition to personally believing that the only thing that humans are "intrinsically" is highly diverse and exceptionally culturally malleable, the anthropological and archeological record demonstrates that status-graded societies are a fairly recent development. Also, now that anthropologists and archeologists are actually looking for egalitarian and matriarchal societies they are finding them. I'm fairly certain the reason that such societies were not found before was observer bias (yet more proof [to me] that all social and cultural studies have more in common with disciplines like literary criticism than with any of the hard sciences). The recent archeological digs in Western Central Asia among Sauromatian burials have turned up lots of fascinating evidence of what could easily have been the model for the Greek legends of amazons See http://www.archaeology.org/9701/abstracts/sarmatians.html for more info on this fascinating discovery. OTOH, I have seen some theories that state that due to nutritional and economic/technological reasons intensive agricultural (as opposed to either hunter-gatherer or horticultural) societies may be predisposed to being male-dominated. If such is true, then perhaps it is no accident that now that only a small fraction of people are actually performing agriculture, the situation is again changing back to a more equitable model. Then again, most theories of cultural determinism are *way* too simplistic, so this idea could easily be wrong. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 00:42:02 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: John Snead Subject: Hunter-Gatherer Societies (was Re: Capitalism) Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <200205220112.17aopU7093Nl3rs0@tyner.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT "Michael J. Lowrey" wrote: > Subject: > > Dave Belden wrote: > > 1) Traditional cultures (let's say above a hunter/gatherer level), > > have tended to be patriarchal, for reasons I guess mainly to do > > > with the power of warriors, herders and land owners in those > > economies. > > Huh? Not according to modern anthropological studies! My > mother's people, the Cherokee, not only had matrilineal > kinship, but the households were matrilocal, and "divorce" > could be initiated by either party. Yes and it's only one example of fairly egalitarian hunter-gatherer societies. In general, traditional H-G societies were band level and honestly did not have enough people (almost never more than 2 dozen) to actually have much of a division of labor. Paleolithic rock paintings in the Sahara desert (from back when it was savannah) show images of men and women hunting large game together and early records from the New World indicate that entire Native Americans bands worked together to jump hunt bison (ie drive much of a herd off a cliff and eat *lots* of bison). Such societies were not patriarchal. >From everything I've read, both social stratification and significant gender-based discrimination only starts in tribal societies (almost all tribal societies have populations between several dozen to maybe 200), especially in tribal societies based on agriculture. However, even then there are examples of fairly egalitarian tribal societies, the Navajo being an excellent example of one that is still moderately egalitarian. One important fact to note is that all extant hunter-gathers and early agriculturalist societies that now exist have been extensively impacted by the various expansionist male-dominated state-level societies, so IMHO the best evidence we have for what truly isolated H-G and early agriculturalist societies were like is the historical record and not modern examples of these societies. -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 00:57:07 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Matriliny Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <200205220112.17aopU7093Nl3rs0@tyner.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Judith Berman wrote: > I also believe that a range of factors are/were in play. One > anthropological argument is that the status of women in any society is > connected to their degree of control over the exchange of status goods > (not just how important they are to food production, in other words). > Which has both cultural and economic dimensions. > > Some other thoughts. The demographic profiles of hunter/gatherer and > horticultural/hunting societies tend to be quite different from those > of hierarchical, agricultural ones. The former have low fertility, low > infant mortality, good nutrition and longer life spans -- resembling > industrial societies, in fact. Yep, this is exactly what I was talking about in my earlier post. > With the advent of agriculture, on > the other hand, a large number of children can be an economic asset. > Communicable disease is also a bigger presence the bigger and denser > your population is (though this was less a factor in the precolumbian > New World than in the Old). The typical pre-industrial agricultural > picture is high birth rate, high infant mortality, and short life > spans. Also, hunter-gather and horticultural societies both tended to have good general nutrition (ie the people eats lots of different foods) but often a fairly limited caloric intake. That sort of diet produces very low fertility and infrequent births. The increased calories brought about by agriculture increases fertility, but decreased general nutrition almost always accompanies this rise in calories, since the populace (especially in the lower strata) eat mostly the single grain they are growing. Increased calories combined with poor general nutrition produces high fertility but also a significant increase in both infant and maternal mortality. In agricultural societies, women were far more burdened with children and they tended to die far younger (and have worse general health due to pregnancy complications) than they did in hunter-gather and horticultural societies (where male and female life spans were approximately equal). -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:07:42 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Hunter-Gatherer Societies (was Re: Capitalism) Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Snead wrote: > > "Michael J. Lowrey" wrote: > > Huh? Not according to modern anthropological studies! My > > mother's people, the Cherokee, not only had matrilineal > > kinship, but the households were matrilocal, and "divorce" > > could be initiated by either party. > > > > Yes and it's only one example of fairly egalitarian hunter-gatherer > societies. In general, traditional H-G societies were band level and > honestly did not have enough people (almost never more than 2 > dozen) to actually have much of a division of labor. I'm sure you didn't mean to, John, but you've just insulted the Ani-Yunwiya! They were not a hunter-gatherer society, and had not been for many centuries prior to the arrival of the invaders. Pre-contact, the larger villages numbered hundreds of people, not the one or two dozen of a hunter-gatherer band. I recommend to your attention the excellent THE CHEROKEE PEOPLE, by Thomas E. Mails (New York: Marlowe & Company, 1996; trade p.b.). -- Michael J. Lowrey, Editor-in-Chief Sunrise Book Reviews -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:16:34 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Matriliny Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Snead wrote: > Also, hunter-gather and horticultural societies both tended to have > good general nutrition (ie the people eats lots of different foods) but > often a fairly limited caloric intake. That sort of diet produces very > low fertility and infrequent births. The increased calories brought > about by agriculture increases fertility, but decreased general > nutrition almost always accompanies this rise in calories, since the > populace (especially in the lower strata) eat mostly the single grain > they are growing. Why would they grow only a single grain? The Cherokee had the Three Sisters (corn, squashes and beans), plus a variety of roots, nuts and berries. This would be supplemented by buffalo and/or deer meat, as well as possum, squirrel, rabbit, and other small game. -- Michael J. Lowrey -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:55:41 -0400 Reply-To: judithberman@earthlink.net Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Judith Berman Subject: Re: Hunter-Gatherer Societies (was Re: Capitalism) Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael J. Lowrey wrote: >I'm sure you didn't mean to, John, but you've just insulted >the Ani-Yunwiya! They were not a hunter-gatherer society, >and had not been for many centuries prior to the arrival of >the invaders. Pre-contact, the larger villages numbered >hundreds of people, not the one or two dozen of a >hunter-gatherer band. I recommend to your attention the >excellent THE CHEROKEE PEOPLE, by Thomas E. Mails (New >York: Marlowe & Company, 1996; trade p.b.). > The Southeastern US and Mississippi Valley were, prior to European contact, the home to a number of complex societies and truly urban concentrations of people, going back, as Mike says, hundreds if not a thousand years. The site of Cahokia was, in the 13th century, bigger than most European cities of the time. Glimpses of what these societies were like can be seen in the accounts of the de Soto "expedition" (pillaging spree) and the earliest French explorers; they include one city which the Spanish said was ruled by a woman. There's been some interesting archaeology trying to find the remains of the cities de Soto visited/destroyed. Unfortunately the urban concentrations were the most vulnerable to smallpox and other introduced epidemic diseases, and disappeared soon after contact, though even in the 18th and 19th centuries you still have accounts of such complex matrilineal farming societies as the Creek, Natchez, and, of course, the Cherokee. Contrary to the popular stereotype, not that many indigenous North American groups in the temperate zones were hunter-gatherers pure and simple. The exceptions might be the people living in desert areas (e.g. the Great Basin). Most others planted crops or fished for salmon and other anadromous fish (which is similar to growing crops in that you work seasonally to generate a surplus food staple). The buffalo hunting adaptation, tipis and all, originated in seasonal hunting expeditions from sedentary horticultural societies like the Hidatsa and Pawnee. Moreover, it's increasingly understood that a lot of women's "gathering" was/is really a form of gardening -- tending root beds, cultivating berry patches, and the like. (As one writer said, wilderness is what happened to the North American environment when you took Indians out of it.) A wonderful book on Hidatsa women's work is BUFFALO BIRD WOMAN'S GARDEN, as told to Gilbert Wilson. Judith -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:58:15 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: attention David Beldon Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right after reading your private letter, David, the Klev.E ate up my computer (even with the virus eater running!), and I had to do a full hard drive wipe to be free. Please email me again so that I can answer you. Pardon, everyone for this private note here. Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:04:15 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do enjoy alternative histories. Modest's (sp) Dutch USA is really fun. By synchronicity I happened to start reading it on the plane to Holland. (: I would really, really love to read an alternitve history where the "USA" is Cherokee. Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:12:12 -0400 Reply-To: judithberman@earthlink.net Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Judith Berman Subject: Re: Matriliny Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >John Snead wrote: > >>Also, hunter-gather and horticultural societies both tended to have >>good general nutrition (ie the people eats lots of different foods) but >>often a fairly limited caloric intake. >> True seasonally, perhaps, though likely to be true generally only for hunter-gatherers in marginal environments (e.g., deserts) -- where most of contemporary hunter-gatherers are found. One antidote to this view is the accounts of bear-fat-drinking and seal-blubber-in-fish-oil-eating contests from North America. Fertility was limited in a variety of ways, including, in some cases, lengthy periods of ritually sanctioned celibacy (for example, in one north Pacific coast group, the formalities preceding warfare included the men building a fort where they lived, observing celibacy and other ritual requirements for up to a year). -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:51:51 -0400 Reply-To: judithberman@earthlink.net Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Judith Berman Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not quite what you're looking for, but Martin Cruz Smith (GORKY PARK, etc.) wrote alt-hist Cold War novel where the US west of the Mississippi is in Native hands (sorry, can't remember the title). Judith Cynthia wrote: >I do enjoy alternative histories. Modest's (sp) Dutch USA is really fun. By >synchronicity I happened to start reading it on the plane to Holland. (: > >I would really, really love to read an alternitve history where the "USA" is >Cherokee. > >Cynthia > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:51:00 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia wrote: > > I do enjoy alternative histories. Modest's (sp) Dutch USA is really fun. By > synchronicity I happened to start reading it on the plane to Holland. (: > > I would really, really love to read an alternitve history where the "USA" is > Cherokee. North America was such a patchwork/mosaic of cultures that there is no way that the Principal People could have imposed our culture on the entire continent. A North America where the Cherokee are the most prominent culture in the SE quadrant, maybe; but that's a very different thing. There is Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's ARIOSTO FURIOSO, set in a timeline where the Florentine Italian colonies in N. America have reached an alliance of some kind with the Cherokee; but the colonies are only a minor part of the book itself. Have you read Martin Cruz Smith's crude, but exuberant, early work entitled THE INDIANS WON? He hacked it out in a few weeks for a miserable advance, when he was young and hungry; but it is a lot of fun. -- Michael J. Lowrey panting for WisCon -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:07:49 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > North America was such a patchwork/mosaic of cultures that > there is no way that the Principal People could have imposed > our culture on the entire continent. A North America where > the Cherokee are the most prominent culture in the SE > quadrant, maybe; but that's a very different thing. But what if the Principal People continued to thrive and contact with Europe remainded modest enough that it could bring more trade some exchange of technologies. Supposing, the People had control over the storms on the Atlantic and could see in dreams who was preparing to embark, and so could regulate who could come? Perhaps Turtle Island could have become the United States of the People as a unification of the different Nations. Thanks for the book reccomendations and I am similarly, > panting for WisCon Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:23:41 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia wrote: > > > North America was such a patchwork/mosaic of cultures that > > there is no way that the Principal People could have imposed > > our culture on the entire continent. A North America where > > the Cherokee are the most prominent culture in the SE > > quadrant, maybe; but that's a very different thing. > > Supposing, the People had control over the storms on the > Atlantic and could see in dreams who was preparing to embark, and so could > regulate who could come? Perhaps Turtle Island could have become the United > States of the People as a unification of the different Nations. 1. Now you're talking fantasy, instead of SF (which is where I would be more interested). 2. The Cherokee distrusted magic and magic-users. Anybody with this kind of power would be executed ASAP. -- Michael J. Lowrey on his way out -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 00:18:14 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <3CEBBE64.AAB5697F@uwm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:51 AM 5/22/02 -0500, Michael J. Lowrey wrote: >Cynthia wrote: > > > > I do enjoy alternative histories. Modest's (sp) Dutch USA is really fun. By > > synchronicity I happened to start reading it on the plane to Holland. (: > > > > I would really, really love to read an alternitve history where the > "USA" is > > Cherokee. Perhaps it is already. There are reportedly more Cherokee, both enrolled and unenrolled, than any other tribe. So many Cherokee "passed" as white that a huge segment of the population simply assimilated and "disappeared." Bringing this back to Science Fiction, more or less, there was a book by Mercedes Lackey about an Osage / Cherokee Private Investigator, Sacred Ground. It's fantasy rather than SF. >North America was such a patchwork/mosaic of cultures that >there is no way that the Principal People could have imposed >our culture on the entire continent. A North America where >the Cherokee are the most prominent culture in the SE >quadrant, maybe; but that's a very different thing. There >is Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's ARIOSTO FURIOSO, set in a timeline >where the Florentine Italian colonies in N. America have >reached an alliance of some kind with the Cherokee; but the >colonies are only a minor part of the book itself. > >Have you read Martin Cruz Smith's crude, but exuberant, >early work entitled THE INDIANS WON? He hacked it out in a >few weeks for a miserable advance, when he was young and >hungry; but it is a lot of fun. > >-- >Michael J. Lowrey >panting for WisCon > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 01:20:42 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: John Snead Subject: Re: Matriliny Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <200205230110.17aKRS6o83Nl3p20@pickering.mail.mindspring.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT "Michael J. Lowrey" wrote: > > John Snead wrote: > > > Also, hunter-gather and horticultural societies both tended to have > > good general nutrition (ie the people eats lots of different foods) > > but often a fairly limited caloric intake. That sort of diet > > produces very low fertility and infrequent births. The increased > > calories brought about by agriculture increases fertility, but > > decreased general nutrition almost always accompanies this rise in > > calories, since the populace (especially in the lower strata) eat > > mostly the single grain they are growing. > > Why would they grow only a single grain? The Cherokee had > the Three Sisters (corn, squashes and beans), plus a variety > of roots, nuts and berries. This would be supplemented by > buffalo and/or deer meat, as well as possum, squirrel, > rabbit, and other small game. True. My knowledge of New World archeology and anthropology is severely limited (as my earlier mistake about the Cherokee so clearly proves). However, in the Old World, single grain agriculture or growing a limited range of similar grains (often wheat, rye, and barley) was very much the norm. In some places like Catal Huyuk, the amount of non-grain food the people ate was surprisingly small (and malnutrition was unsurprisingly high). -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 07:22:32 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:51 AM 5/22/02 -0500, Michael J. Lowrey wrote: >Cynthia wrote: > > > > I do enjoy alternative histories. Modest's (sp) Dutch USA is really fun. By > > synchronicity I happened to start reading it on the plane to Holland. (: > > > > I would really, really love to read an alternitve history where the > "USA" is > > Cherokee. Keith Hartman's The Gumshoe, the Witch and the Virtual Corpse might also be of interest. It has a few Cherokee characters and subplots. It an SF Mystery. Unicorn Mountain by Michael Bishop Fantasy Cherokee Smoke by William Sanders Mystery Fantasy -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 07:51:16 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Kris Hasson-Jones Organization: Handled for You at a Price Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020523002019.00a12d50@www.leeanne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 23 May 2002 07:22:32 -0700, Lee Anne Phillips wrote: >At 10:51 AM 5/22/02 -0500, Michael J. Lowrey wrote: >> > I would really, really love to read an alternitve history where the >> "USA" is >> > Cherokee. > >Keith Hartman's The Gumshoe, the Witch and the Virtual Corpse >might also be of interest. It has a few Cherokee characters and >subplots. It an SF Mystery. There is also a sequel with slightly less emphasis on the Cherokee Nation but still running characters through the book. Unfortunately the name of the sequel is a spoiler for the first book.=20 --=20 Kris Hasson Jones snippy@pacifier.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 10:12:51 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kris Hasson-Jones wrote: > > Lee Anne Phillips wrote: > >Keith Hartman's The Gumshoe, the Witch and the Virtual Corpse > >might also be of interest. It has a few Cherokee characters and > >subplots. It an SF Mystery. > > There is also a sequel with slightly less emphasis on the Cherokee > Nation but still running characters through the book. Unfortunately > the name of the sequel is a spoiler for the first book. Well, if we're just talking Cherokee-related SF/fantasy, Tom Deitz has a whole series of fantasies that entangle Celtic and Cherokee mythologies: Windmaster's Bane, Fireshaper's Doom, Darkthunder's Way, Sunshaker's War, Stoneskin's Revenge, Ghostcountry's Wrath, Dreamseeker's Road, Landslayer's Law & Warstalker's Track. He told me once that he had to drag the Celts in, because he just couldn't sell any publisher on a fantasy series _only_ involving Cherokee mythology! (I once tried to sell TSR some D&D articles based on Cherokee mythology myself, and was told it was too obscure, with too little demand/interest.) -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey awaiting WisCon hi, Kris! -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 09:17:36 -0600 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: PAT MATHEWS Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Lee Anne Phillips >>> > >> > I do enjoy alternative histories. Modest's (sp) Dutch USA is really >>fun. By >> > synchronicity I happened to start reading it on the plane to Holland. >>(: >> > >> > I would really, really love to read an alternitve history where the >>"USA" is >> > Cherokee. > >Keith Hartman's The Gumshoe, the Witch and the Virtual Corpse >might also be of interest. It has a few Cherokee characters and >subplots. It an SF Mystery. > >Unicorn Mountain by Michael Bishop >Fantasy Cherokee > Wrong. Southern Ute. >Smoke by William Sanders >Mystery Fantasy > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:22:09 -0400 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Cynthia Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > 1. Now you're talking fantasy, instead of SF (which is > where I would be more interested). > > 2. The Cherokee distrusted magic and magic-users. Anybody > with this kind of power would be executed ASAP. > > -- > Michael J. Lowrey > on his way out I'm trying to entice you, Michael, or the other Cherokee on this list (I am sorry I forget who you are. I had to wipe that post when the Klev.E got me.) to write this book. Unless one is part of the culture it is very difficult to write convincingly of the culture, not to mention use it as the inspiration for a fantasy or sf tale. Once I tried writing a play about Spanish settlers in Santa Fe. My Spanish husband laughed himself silly. The play *wasn't* a comedy. Careful research and knowing Spaniards was of no avail. Cynthia -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 10:43:42 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia wrote: > > "Orange Mike" wrote: > > 1. Now you're talking fantasy, instead of SF (which is > > where I would be more interested). > > 2. The Cherokee distrusted magic and magic-users. Anybody > > with this kind of power would be executed ASAP. > I'm trying to entice you, Michael, or the other Cherokee on this list (I am > sorry I forget who you are. I had to wipe that post when the Klev.E got me.) > to write this book. Unless one is part of the culture it is very difficult > to write convincingly of the culture, not to mention use it as the > inspiration for a fantasy or sf tale. I'm not culturally Cherokee, though I sometimes wish I was. My mother's father refused to do more than grudgingly admit who his mother's people were; I don't even know what *clan* she belonged to! I'd be working out of books and journals, the same as any of you. I just remembered a 1971-72 conversation with Roland Green, long before he bacame a published author. At the time, he was working on an alternative-history novel whose opening setpiece was the ceremonies attendant upon the arrival of the Cherokee Nation's ambassador to the Court of St. James! As far as I know, he has never published it; I don't know if he even went very far on it. -- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey not gifted with an ear for fiction anyway, he fears -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 15:07:04 -0400 Reply-To: judithberman@earthlink.net Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Judith Berman Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As far as "fantasy" novels about indigenous North Americans are concerned, I can't recommend Leslie Marmon Silko's sublime CEREMONY highly enough. It's by no means a genre fantasy, though myth and manifestations of the spirit world are central to it. Silko, BTW, is part Laguna. I haven't read her second book, but I've been told it's not nearly as good. Re Mike's experience with a Cherokee-based computer game, I know that Shayne Bell was trying to sell a sf novel featuring Inuit in space and was having difficulties. In this particular case, maybe it was because in the dominant culture, "Native" associates with fantasy and nostalgia for the primitive, and clashes with ideas about sf and technology? My own fantasy novel THE BEAR'S DAUGHTER (forthcoming from Ace Books in 2003 [?]) is based on a stew of north Pacific myths and traditions. I wouldn't want to say it's "about" Native Americans, in part for the reasons mentioned. (Apologies for the self-promo if it's inappropriate.) Judith Michael J. Lowrey wrote: >Cynthia wrote: > >>"Orange Mike" wrote: >> >>>1. Now you're talking fantasy, instead of SF (which is >>>where I would be more interested). >>>2. The Cherokee distrusted magic and magic-users. Anybody >>>with this kind of power would be executed ASAP. >>> >>I'm trying to entice you, Michael, or the other Cherokee on this list (I am >>sorry I forget who you are. I had to wipe that post when the Klev.E got me.) >>to write this book. Unless one is part of the culture it is very difficult >>to write convincingly of the culture, not to mention use it as the >>inspiration for a fantasy or sf tale. >> > >I'm not culturally Cherokee, though I sometimes wish I was. >My mother's father refused to do more than grudgingly admit >who his mother's people were; I don't even know what *clan* >she belonged to! I'd be working out of books and journals, >the same as any of you. > > >I just remembered a 1971-72 conversation with Roland Green, >long before he bacame a published author. At the time, he >was working on an alternative-history novel whose opening >setpiece was the ceremonies attendant upon the arrival of >the Cherokee Nation's ambassador to the Court of St. James! >As far as I know, he has never published it; I don't know if >he even went very far on it. > >-- >Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey >not gifted with an ear for fiction anyway, he fears > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 19:23:29 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lou Hoffman Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_13d.ec74dde.2a1ed3f1_boundary" --part1_13d.ec74dde.2a1ed3f1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/23/02 10:10:49 AM Central Daylight Time, orangest@UWM.EDU writes: > (I once tried to sell TSR some D&D articles > based on Cherokee mythology myself, and was told it was too > obscure, with too little demand/interest.) > > I've worked on a Native American RPG world off and on for about ten years, but put it aside as something I needed a lot more time to do right. Talk about it as WisCon? Lou ... And don't worry about the world coming to an end today, it's already tomorrow in Australia. ---- Charles Schultz --part1_13d.ec74dde.2a1ed3f1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/23/02 10:10:49 AM Central Daylight Time, orangest@UWM.EDU writes:


(I once tried to sell TSR some D&D articles
based on Cherokee mythology myself, and was told it was too
obscure, with too little demand/interest.)



I've worked on a Native American RPG world off and on for about ten years, but put it aside as something I needed  a lot more time to do right.  Talk about it as WisCon?

Lou

... And don't worry about the world coming to an end today,  it's already tomorrow in Australia.
---- Charles Schultz
--part1_13d.ec74dde.2a1ed3f1_boundary-- -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 01:10:32 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: No Name Available Subject: Re: FEMINISTSF Digest - 22 May 2002 to 23 May 2002 (#2002-32) Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, A shameless plug for my world history timeline http://www.tlwinslow.com/timeline.html but whether you are reading or writing alternative fiction you won't find a better online timeline to supplement you. It's ever-growing and I can use more material, so just holler if you have any, including url links. Ciao, T.L. Winslow, Fiction Author www.tlwinslow.com Author of Tegeena: Warrior Priestess www.tlwinslow.com/tegeena.html -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 23:15:09 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:17 AM 5/23/02 -0600, PAT MATHEWS wrote: >>Unicorn Mountain by Michael Bishop >>Fantasy Cherokee > >Wrong. Southern Ute. Paisley is Ute but I vaguely remember a gay character from Georgia who was Cherokee. I could well be wrong. Bishop does do Cherokee characters *somewhere*, as I recall, but can't think which of his many novels feature them if not that one. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 23:25:32 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Cherokee "America" Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU In-Reply-To: <003e01c2026d$9b6b8180$93bed43f@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:22 AM 5/23/02 -0400, Cynthia wrote: >I'm trying to entice you, Michael, or the other Cherokee on this list (I am >sorry I forget who you are. I had to wipe that post when the Klev.E got me.) Actually, there seem to be a mort of them. I'm a non-enrolled Cherokee of the Bird Clan, among many other things, the more important being Danish and German Jewish but that hardly exhausts the list... ;-) I believe Sheryl and one other woman mentioned distant relationship as well. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 23:54:25 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Cherokees in SF Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Anthony, Patricia. Flanders Bishop, Michael. Catacomb Years Bishop, Michael. Brittle Innings Bison, Terry. Fire on the Mountain Bradbury, Ray. The Martian Chronicles Gibson, William & Bruce Sterling. The Difference Engine Cherokee Wannabe Golden, Christie. The Murdered Sun (Star Trek: Voyager) Heinlein, Robert A. "'If This Goes On--' " in Revolt in 2100 Kress, Nancy. Beggars in Spain Laidlaw, Marc. "His Powder'd Wig, His Crown of Thornes " in Omni Visions One Scarborough, Elizabeth Ann. The Healer's War Turtledove, Harry. The Great War: American Front Alternate history novel featuring Cherokees among others -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:47:31 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Sheryl Subject: Re: Cherokee "America"--off topic complaint about difficulty of ancestral research Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I mentioned a distant relationship, but it's pretty typical for someone whose family is from Northeastern Oklahoma. My family has always claimed Cherokee ancestry, so I tried to do the research and find out who and where. Turns out my great-great-grandmother's children tried to get her retroactively enrolled (this would have been 10 or 15 years after the Dawes Rolls were codified), but the application was refused for some reason--possibly because old Malissa refused to move from Arkansas to Oklahoma. This alone denied a lot of people their legal status as members of the nation. (She moved there later, though and founded that branch of the family). I have found a petition, signed by some of my ancestors, to President Madison to be allowed to take possession of lands in North Carolina they had bought from the Cherokee (but which the Chickasaw said was theirs and not for sale) in 1810. One of my ancestors was thrown off that same land in 1802. The family migration patterns are suspiciously similar to the route taken by the Chickamauga when they threw up their collective hands and left the main body of the nation in the early 1800's to move to what is now Arkansas and Missouri. I know that it was pretty typical for white men to marry into Cherokee families because that got them the best of both worlds--some status and property in the Nation, and of course they kept their patriarchal status amongst the whites. And that's about all I know about whatever Cherokee ancestry I have. I have a whole lot more English, Welsh, French, Danish, Belgian, Dutch, Irish, and Scottish blood. One set of great-grandparents came from Normandy. But those are all easy to research and not so tantalizing, eh? (Sometimes _too_ easy to research. Found out to my chagrin that one branch of the family in Virginia owned big ol' plantations and the slaves to run them. Destroyed my cherished belief that we'd been white trash from way back.) Sheryl >Actually, there seem to be a mort of them. I'm a non-enrolled >Cherokee of the Bird Clan, among many other things, the >more important being Danish and German Jewish but >that hardly exhausts the list... ;-) > >I believe Sheryl and one other woman mentioned distant >relationship as well. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:23:02 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Kris Hasson-Jones Subject: Re: Cherokee "America"--off topic complaint aboutdifficulty ofancestral research Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sheryl wrote: > > Yes, I mentioned a distant relationship, but it's pretty > typical for someone whose family is from Northeastern > Oklahoma. My family has always claimed Cherokee > ancestry, so I tried to do the research and find out > who and where. My paternal grandfather claimed Cherokee and Crow; he was from Oklahoma. But my grandmother said she'd spoken with his parents about it, and it was probably just Crow (one of his grandfathers). -- Kris Hasson-Jones snippy@pacifier.com -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:18:30 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Sheryl Subject: Re: Cherokee "America"--off topic complaint aboutdifficulty ofancestral research Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And a lot of people who think their ancestry is Cherokee turn out to be Muscogee/Creek instead. It gets very frustrating... Sheryl -----Original Message----- From: Kris Hasson-Jones To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU Date: Friday, May 24, 2002 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Cherokee "America"--off topic complaint aboutdifficulty ofancestral research >Sheryl wrote: >> >> Yes, I mentioned a distant relationship, but it's pretty >> typical for someone whose family is from Northeastern >> Oklahoma. My family has always claimed Cherokee >> ancestry, so I tried to do the research and find out >> who and where. > >My paternal grandfather claimed Cherokee and Crow; he was >from Oklahoma. But my grandmother said she'd spoken with >his parents about it, and it was probably just Crow (one >of his grandfathers). >-- >Kris Hasson-Jones snippy@pacifier.com > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems.