Subject: File: "FEMINISTSF LOG0209A" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 14:17:50 +1000 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Jaran Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020822063504.00b44e00@the-dojo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" If I can be permitted a small self advertisement - and maybe a pardonable boast - I have just received advance copies of THE GIFT, the first of my own fantasy trilogy, out next month with Penguin Australia. Which is rather exciting, for me, anyway. It is most certainly not sexist, and has been called both an "old fashioned" fantasy, and a "very female" book. Work that one out! But, whatever people make of it, I can guarantee a complete absence of adolescent male attitudes towards women... Best wishes Alison > >>Thanks for this question, and answer.. I have the Jaran book and I have been >>wondering teh same thing. Actually, I would like any recomendations on good >>imaginary world fantasy, that is not sexist... the adolescent male attitude >>towards women is epidemic in epic fantasy. >>Maire >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>Christine asked: >>> > I was wondering, does anyone recommand Kate Elliot's Jaran >>series? I have >>> > read her other series and was wondering if the Jaran is good or >>simply the >>> > same thing in another setting. > >Catherine Asaro >> > I enjoyed her Jaran series a great deal. I really liked the >>characterizations, >>> the world-building, the complexity of the plot,and also the cultural >>> development of the people. I would give it a high recommendation. > >-------------------------------------------------- >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -- Alison Croggon Home page http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/ Masthead Online http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 16:05:37 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Jaran Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_21.2351ea11.2aa51e91_boundary" --part1_21.2351ea11.2aa51e91_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/2/2002 12:25:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, acroggon@BIGPOND.COM writes: > If I can be permitted a small self advertisement - and maybe a > pardonable boast - I have just received advance copies of THE GIFT, > the first of my own fantasy trilogy, out next month with Penguin > Australia. Congrats Alison!!! What is the plot of the series? And will it be avaible in the U.S. or Canada? Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. --part1_21.2351ea11.2aa51e91_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/2/2002 12:25:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, acroggon@BIGPOND.COM writes:


If I can be permitted a small self advertisement - and maybe a
pardonable boast - I have just received advance copies of THE GIFT,
the first of my own fantasy trilogy, out next month with Penguin
Australia.



Congrats Alison!!!   What is the plot of the series?  And will it be avaible in the U.S. or Canada?

Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say:
unsubscribe FEMINISTSF

Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. --part1_21.2351ea11.2aa51e91_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:04:11 +1000 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Maire Subject: Re: Jaran Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alison.. thanks for the headsup I will certainly look for it. How exciting for you! Maire > -----Original Message----- > From: friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature > and other media [mailto:FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU]On Behalf Of Alison Croggon > Sent: Monday, 2 September 2002 2:18 PM > To: FEMINISTSF@UIC.EDU > Subject: Re: [*FSFFU*] Jaran > > > If I can be permitted a small self advertisement - and maybe a > pardonable boast - I have just received advance copies of THE GIFT, > the first of my own fantasy trilogy, out next month with Penguin > Australia. Which is rather exciting, for me, anyway. It is most > certainly not sexist, and has been called both an "old fashioned" > fantasy, and a "very female" book. Work that one out! But, whatever > people make of it, I can guarantee a complete absence of adolescent > male attitudes towards women... > > Best wishes > > Alison > > > > >>Thanks for this question, and answer.. I have the Jaran book > and I have been > >>wondering teh same thing. Actually, I would like any > recomendations on good > >>imaginary world fantasy, that is not sexist... the adolescent > male attitude > >>towards women is epidemic in epic fantasy. > >>Maire > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>Christine asked: > >>> > I was wondering, does anyone recommand Kate Elliot's Jaran > >>series? I have > >>> > read her other series and was wondering if the Jaran is good or > >>simply the > >>> > same thing in another setting. > > > >Catherine Asaro > >> > I enjoyed her Jaran series a great deal. I really liked the > >>characterizations, > >>> the world-building, the complexity of the plot,and also the cultural > >>> development of the people. I would give it a high recommendation. > > > >-------------------------------------------------- > >This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > >discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > >unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > > >Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. > > -- > > > > Alison Croggon > Home page > http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/ > > Masthead Online > http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/ > > -------------------------------------------------- > This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for > discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To > unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: > unsubscribe FEMINISTSF > > Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:19:43 +1000 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Jaran Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" In-Reply-To: <21.2351ea11.2aa51e91@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1181095696==_ma============" --============_-1181095696==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Thanks Chris and Maire - I'm a bit stumped to describe the plot of The Gift, it's basically a quest and my heroine is a young Bard called Maerad who in the first book pursues her identity, among other things.... It has a super cover, Penguin decided on a photographic approach which reflects the realism of the book, and I'm afraid I'm still leafing through the book in a totally delighted egocentric manner trying to work out how and when I wrote it. It will be in shops early October and I'll be updating my website to include info about the book very soon, so I'll let you know when I do. It's not available o/s at the moment, though the internet being what it is, what's a continent between friends? Best wishes Alison -- Alison Croggon Home page http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/ Masthead Online http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/ -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. --============_-1181095696==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: [*FSFFU*] Jaran

Thanks Chris and Maire - I'm a bit stumped to describe the plot of The Gift, it's basically a quest and my heroine is a young Bard called Maerad who in the first book pursues her identity, among other things....  It has a super cover, Penguin decided on a photographic approach which reflects the realism of the book, and I'm afraid I'm still leafing through the book in a totally delighted egocentric manner trying to work out how and when I wrote it.  It will be in shops early October and I'll be updating my website to include info about the book very soon, so I'll let you know when I do.  It's not available o/s at the moment, though the internet being what it is, what's a continent between friends? 

Best wishes

Alison
--



Alison Croggon
Home page
http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/

Masthead Online
http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/

-------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say:
unsubscribe FEMINISTSF

Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. --============_-1181095696==_ma============-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 07:48:23 -0500 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: "Michael J. Lowrey" Organization: The Working Class Subject: Re: Jaran Comments: To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Comments: cc: Alison Croggon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison Croggon wrote: > Thanks Chris and Maire - I'm a bit stumped to describe the > plot of The Gift, it's basically a quest and my heroine is > a young Bard called Maerad who in the first book pursues > her identity, among other things.... It has a super > cover, Penguin decided on a photographic approach which > reflects the realism of the book, and I'm afraid I'm still > leafing through the book in a totally delighted egocentric > manner trying to work out how and when I wrote it. It > will be in shops early October and I'll be updating my > website to include info about the book very soon, so I'll > let you know when I do. It's not available o/s at the > moment, though the internet being what it is, what's a > continent between friends? Tell the Penguins I'd like to see a copy, would you? -- Michael J. Lowrey, Editor-in-Chief Sunrise Book Reviews 1847 N. 2nd Str. Milwaukee, WI 53212-3760 U.S.A. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:10:42 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Darkover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_b2.11240530.2aa7fb02_boundary" --part1_b2.11240530.2aa7fb02_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About six months, maybe less, someone mentioned Darkover Landfall and the issue of a woman being forced to carry the baby full term, i.e. a breeding machine. Wel, I'm in the process of reading the Darkover books, at least those outside of the Free Amazon series and Hawkmistress and Stormqueen. The thing about Darkover Landfall is that while one is upset at a woman being forced to carry the baby aganist her will, having the character to have been allowed an abortion would have rung false in terms of the plot and characters of the novel. It seems unlikely that a group of people who want to establish a coloney would allow anyone to have an abortion outside of medical reasons. Not saying I agree with it, but I would have been surprised if she had gotten one rather easily And the Calista (sp) does not become motherly by the end of the book, she gives birth and lets someone else mother so she still does her job. Perhaps what Bradley is trying do is get the reader to think about personal privilage versus socitey surival. She and Mercedes Lackney do this in reversal in REdiscovery when one of the characters Ysaye is given an abortion and a hysterectomy. True, it is done in the best interst of her health, though how much this choice is influenced by the fact that it is unsanctioned baby and Ysaye is an important member of the crew is unclear, but she did not want it. So Rediscovery is the opposite sitution of Landfall but the outside factors (society's needs) are realitively the same. Perhaps that is the issue. Where does personal responiblity end and repsoniblity to society begin. What actually upsets more about the DArkover novels are the Terran women who join Darkover socitey and have no problem or too many worries about the role of women in that society. I would think that unless the woman joins the Amazons she would have a lot of rude cultural shock, even Katherine from Traitor's Sun, "comes around" even though she says she will. And its the little things that they accept so quickly that upset me. I could not quickly adapt to having to wear petticoats every day. But they seem to adapt pretty quietly. And that upsets. That and the fact that one never really sees the Darkover commoner in any great light but we are suppose to think that Darkover is superior to the Terrans. But the reader is only shown a small fragment of that society. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. --part1_b2.11240530.2aa7fb02_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About six months, maybe less, someone mentioned Darkover Landfall and the issue of a woman being forced to carry the baby full term, i.e. a breeding machine.  Wel, I'm in the process of reading the Darkover books, at least those outside of the Free Amazon series and Hawkmistress and Stormqueen.  The thing about Darkover Landfall is that while one is upset at a woman being forced to carry the baby aganist her will, having the character to have been allowed an abortion would have rung false in terms of the plot and characters of the novel.  It seems unlikely that a group of people who want to establish a coloney would allow anyone to have an abortion outside of medical reasons.  Not saying I agree with it, but I would have been surprised if she had gotten one rather easily  And the Calista (sp) does not become motherly by the end of the book, she gives birth and lets someone else mother so she still does her job.  Perhaps what Bradley is trying do is get the reader to think about personal privilage versus socitey surival.  She and Mercedes Lackney do this in reversal in REdiscovery when one of the characters Ysaye is given an abortion and a hysterectomy.  True, it is done in the best interst of her health, though how much this choice is influenced by the fact that it is unsanctioned baby and Ysaye is an important member of the crew is unclear, but she did not want it.  So Rediscovery is the opposite sitution of Landfall but the outside factors (society's needs) are realitively the same.  Perhaps that is the issue.  Where does personal responiblity end and repsoniblity to society begin.
       What actually upsets more about the DArkover novels are the Terran women who join Darkover socitey and have no problem or too many worries about the role of women in that society.  I would think that unless the woman joins the Amazons she would have a lot of rude cultural shock, even Katherine from Traitor's Sun, "comes around" even though she says she will.  And its the little things that they accept so quickly that upset me.  I could not quickly adapt to having to wear petticoats every day.  But they seem to adapt pretty quietly.  And that upsets.  That and the fact that one never really sees the Darkover commoner in any great light but we are suppose to think that Darkover is superior to the Terrans.  But the reader is only shown a small fragment of that society.

Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say:

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Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. --part1_b2.11240530.2aa7fb02_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 02:58:26 -0700 Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Lee Anne Phillips Subject: Re: Darkover Comments: To: Feminist SF/F In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_58301000==_.ALT" --=====================_58301000==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:10 PM 9/4/02 -0400, Christine Ethier wrote: > What actually upsets more about the DArkover novels are the Terran > women who join Darkover socitey and have no problem or too many worries > about the role of women in that society. I would think that unless the > woman joins the Amazons she would have a lot of rude cultural shock, even > Katherine from Traitor's Sun, "comes around" even though she says she > will. And its the little things that they accept so quickly that upset > me. I could not quickly adapt to having to wear petticoats every > day. But they seem to adapt pretty quietly. And that upsets. That and > the fact that one never really sees the Darkover commoner in any great > light but we are suppose to think that Darkover is superior to the > Terrans. But the reader is only shown a small fragment of that society. I'd agree that the Earth women ought to gripe about it more among themselves, but presumably space explorers and foreign mission agents would have been trained in "cultural sensitivity" and perhaps even given training in local customs and dress before debarking. How this would affect Dry Lands visitors escapes me as I can't imagine any Earth woman, with the possible exceptions of Laura [Quilter] and Marie Robinson, visiting the place willingly. If you've ever been to an event sponsored by the Society for Creative Anachronism (many of whose members *love* the Darkover books), you'll note that there are scads of women running around in long velvet gowns with bodices, slashed sleeves, beaucoup petticoats, and the occasional snood. So it's not too much to imagine that there are perhaps some Earth women who travel to Darkover on purpose, just so they can wear the clothes. As an aside, it takes practice to wear those sorts of gowns well and move with a modicum of grace, so I imagine anyone "official" -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. would have spent at least *some* time practicing. --=====================_58301000==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 08:10 PM 9/4/02 -0400, Christine Ethier wrote:

       What actually upsets more about the DArkover novels are the Terran women who join Darkover socitey and have no problem or too many worries about the role of women in that society.  I would think that unless the woman joins the Amazons she would have a lot of rude cultural shock, even Katherine from Traitor's Sun, "comes around" even though she says she will.  And its the little things that they accept so quickly that upset me.  I could not quickly adapt to having to wear petticoats every day.  But they seem to adapt pretty quietly.  And that upsets.  That and the fact that one never really sees the Darkover commoner in any great light but we are suppose to think that Darkover is superior to the Terrans.  But the reader is only shown a small fragment of that society.

I'd agree that the Earth women ought to gripe about it more
among themselves, but presumably space explorers and
foreign mission agents would have been trained in "cultural
sensitivity" and perhaps even given training in local customs
and dress before debarking. How this would affect Dry Lands
visitors escapes me as I can't imagine any Earth woman,
with the possible exceptions of Laura Doyle and Marie Robinson,
visiting the place willingly.

If you've ever been to an event sponsored by the Society for
Creative Anachronism (many of whose members *love* the
Darkover books), you'll note that there are scads of women
running around in long velvet gowns with bodices, slashed sleeves,
beaucoup petticoats, and the occasional snood. So it's not too
much to imagine that there are perhaps some Earth women who
travel to Darkover on purpose, just so they can wear the clothes.

As an aside, it takes practice to wear those sorts of gowns well
and move with a modicum of grace, so I imagine anyone "official"
would have spent at least *some* time practicing. -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say:
unsubscribe FEMINISTSF

Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. --=====================_58301000==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 20:05:32 EDT Reply-To: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" Sender: "friendly discussion of feminist SF, fantastic & utopian literature and other media" From: Christine Ethier Subject: Re: Darkover Comments: To: FEMINISTSF@uic.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_e.24978666.2aa94b4c_boundary" --part1_e.24978666.2aa94b4c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/5/2002 6:03:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, leeanne@LEEANNE.COM writes: > you'll note that there are scads of women > running around in long velvet gowns with bodices, slashed sleeves, > beaucoup petticoats, and the occasional snood. So it's not too > much to imagine that there are perhaps some Earth women who > travel to Darkover on purpose, just so they can wear the clothes. > > Clothes that the upper classes would usually be wearing. So I guess my real problem is the fact that the women simply go into the higher classes of society. But it seems that the earlier Darkover novels, at least Spell Sword, Two to Conquer, and the Bloody Sun, it was men who joined the natives. Wonder what caused Bradley to change the characters in regards to that. Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say: unsubscribe FEMINISTSF Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. --part1_e.24978666.2aa94b4c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/5/2002 6:03:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, leeanne@LEEANNE.COM writes:


you'll note that there are scads of women
running around in long velvet gowns with bodices, slashed sleeves,
beaucoup petticoats, and the occasional snood. So it's not too
much to imagine that there are perhaps some Earth women who
travel to Darkover on purpose, just so they can wear the clothes.



Clothes that the upper classes would usually be wearing.  So I guess my real problem is the fact that the women simply go into the higher classes of society.  But it seems that the earlier Darkover novels, at least Spell Sword, Two to Conquer, and the Bloody Sun, it was men who joined the natives.  Wonder what caused Bradley to change the characters in regards to that.

Chris -------------------------------------------------- This is the FEMINISTSF listserve, intended only for discussion of feminism and Speculative Fiction. To unsubscribe from this listserve, send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU and in the body of the message say:
unsubscribe FEMINISTSF

Contact FEMINISTSF-request@UIC.EDU if there are problems. --part1_e.24978666.2aa94b4c_boundary--