On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Sean Johnston wrote:
> >I agree with Joel (who seems to have a fabulous memory to me). I remember
> >Jessica saying something to Chani like "they call us concubines now but
> >history, history will call us wives". That is women are only valauable
> >insofar
> >as they are legitimate adjuncts to Dukes and Emperors.
>
> Be careful of saying "only" in this context, since that's not the case.
> Otherwise all the B.G.s would be adjuncts to Dukes and Emperors.
I must watch my phrasing more carefully: how about "Chani and Jessica
perceive themselves as valuable primarily as partners to men " (and as a
mother, in Jessica's case). What is worrying me about Jessica's statement
is that it is written as a climax of the female part of the story, with
all the weight of truth behind it. If history calls them "wives" then
their achievements become defined and legitimised by that role.I think
that is what Herbert is trying to achieve with his sexual politics. And I
don't like it.
> In terms of being a > >feminist organisation, the Bene
> >Gesserit don't cut it:
>
> Who said they were?
>
A few people seemed to think that because the B.G. are female, and powerful,
this means that Herbert is providing strong female characters (true) but
he is definitely not endorsing them as any kind of role model.
>
> they distribute their members to whatever royal
> >family seems likely to produce the mystical male figure, regardless of any
> >personal horrors they cause. So we have women as sites
> >of reproduction, and pawns becuase of it, yet again. And their power is
> >achieved through traditional methods
> >like feminine wiles). And the "Kawitz Haderach" (?) has the power
> >to see into both male and female pasts: a male can subsume the female,
> >but the opposite is just not possible.
>
> And who wanted the Kwisatz Haderach in the first place? This genetic
> manipulation was a plan of the Bene Gesserits.
True, an interesting play for power in the general patriarchal context.
I'm just concerned that it is once again a male figure who has the
mystical (God like) power of omnipotence.
The women who were sites of
> reproduction knew this and agreed to it. Look what happened to Jessica
> when she deviated from what the Reverend Mothers wanted: she got bitched
> out big-time.
Did they really all "agree"? As you point out, Jessica didn't. How much
choice did they have, given the B.G. control? Women getting co-opted into
the power structures that oppress them is hardly unusual.
Simply-put, the B.G. were seeking power and, according to
> the prophecy, that power would come in the form of a man who could "go
> where we cannot". What the B.G. wanted to do was control that man, and
> they came very close to doing so. You can say it's sexist that the B.G.
> couldn't control that man, but neither could the Tleilaxu or the Harkonnens
> or the Emperor or the Fremen or the Mentats. Heck, even the Guild couldn't
> control him. The only ones that had some measure of control over Paul, and
> that only in that he would listen to them, were Chani and, perhaps, Jessica.
>
>I wouldn't argue that the BG's failure is sexist on Herbert's part. I'm
not convinced Paul did listen to Jessica and Chani. I'm sure that
he refused Jessica's
counsel from very early on (his perogative as an individual) perceiving
her as a danger to him (which could well have been true). Even if he did
listen to them (I can't remember any specific
incidences), they would still be merely powers behind the throne.
Can you remember any incidents when he listened to Chani and took her
advice? There might have been something early on, around the duel scene
where he killed the Freman? Nalo?
Alia is an interesting character, though. I'm trying to remember her
story: she got awakened in the womb, saved Paul from the Emperor's people
at the end of the first book, and then what happened? Didn't she become
twisted and evil in some tragic way, and die fairly young?
With rapidly fading memory synapses,
Tanya (sorry this is so long).
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