At 11:52 AM 11/25/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Okay, so I've tried to sit and think about about this
> My first (but maybe not best) reaction to the reason for sepratism is
>the time-frame the book was written. I don't know how good an answer
>this is (late '60s, early '70s) but sometimes those of use who didn't
>live through times (I'm only 25 and all my experience of feminist lib
>during the '70s is vicarious and at least half academic) can't judge the
>anger at the status quo. I get angry thinking about the problems then,
>and sometimes it does seem (even now) that seperatism would be a
>solution. It's just not going to happen. SO, the miraculous or
>catastrophic ways to eliminate the other sex provide a way of working
>out a vastly different cultural influence.
> As to why there don't "seem" to be all-male separatist u/distopias, I
>don't think it's solely biology. The men towards the end of Walk to the
>End of the World wanted to eliminate women for the most part, and other
>books work out (non-sep) means for artificial wombs, etc. One part
>might be the prevalent male homophobia covered up by a "boys' club"
>atmosphere. I would say it is technically easier for women to procreate
>without men, but modern and SF technology often seems to work more
>towards procreation without women. Besides, often in novels males in
>the plot are separated from women (military, technology escapades) OR it
>is much easier to envision a world (like the Holdfast) where men
>dominate women and have no reason to eliminate them (esp immediately).
> Freedom is something very interesting, especially where freedom of
>person conflicts with society. I think one way this is more easily
>expressed is through the prevalence of non-monogamous relationships
>between women. From being "owned" by one (or many) men into
>self-direction... it seems that one of the first ways (possibly) women
>would express rebellion would be to try to eliminate this possessiveness
>in sex/caring relationships. But again, it takes some time to get there
>(witness the Free Fems' system still harem-like while the Riding Women
>try hard for the opposite). I think (as on Whileaway) that promoting a
>family of women so that even birth-mother doesn't have possession of a
>child (unlike the patriarchal father).
> I do want to emphasize this though
>>"being free might mean the same as "being the master" if their only terms of
>reference were those of the" master. I would say that is one of the
>things to be fought against when becoming "free" as freedom would mean
>different things. That's a way of looking at the differences between
>the Js in the Female-Man and the methods of achieving separatism. Jael
>said that Whileaway was started on a war, which would of necessity be
>denied. Violence responses to violence begets Jael's world. Okay, this
>is getting confused, but I hope you see what I'm trying to say. As for
>why the violence exists, it would take a while to breed out the need for
>violent action from an angry people who never were able to express that
>agression physically. The Holdfast fems certainly were conditioned
>against it.
> As for a peaceful separatism... I think some of the most peaceful
ways
>that it sep could be achieved is via catastrophe. Are "masters" going
>to (as a group) willingly give up control? One thing that comes to mind
>is Piercy's _He, She, and It_ with the women in the Black Zone. They
>took a created situation (assuming they did not create it themselves)
>and separated themselves. Only by those convenient deadly to mostly
>males pandemics is it otherwise going to happen, and if the women create
>this... it's also warlike (IMO), even if an act of desperation.
> Some other things to think about are the works that ostensibly have
>women and men existing together (these two are very different, and i'm
>not sure I like the implications of Sargent's) Tepper's _Gate to Women's
>Country_ and Sargent's _Shore of Women_. Men aren't entirely eliminated
>(used for procreation) but it was also a man-made catastrophe/war that
>caused a situation women took advantage of. Slonziewsky (can't ever get
>her name correct) does an interesting thing with _Door into Ocean_ but I
>can't remember why there are no males.
> Okay, so after typing forever, I'm going to hope you will comment
back!
>misha
>>bernardm@colorado.edu
Okay, after all this -- as far as storylines in which men may or may not
have wanted to eliminate women from the Earth . . . let me direct your
attention to Flynn Connoly's __Rising of the Moon__ in which men DO
eliminate women from the earth by shipping 'em all to the Moon!!!
BTW -- I'm new to the list, have just been lurking the past few days, but I
wanted to respond to this one!
Lorry
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu May 25 2000 - 19:07:35 PDT