Okay, hope everybody is comfortable, because this is liable to take a while.
:)
SPOILERS
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At 10:32 AM 12/1/97 -0800, Susan Palwick wrote:
> >Good heavens. Did that movie have some of the most bizarre subtext
you've
> >ever seen, or what?
Absolutely. Being the media junkie that I am, I had some pretty good clues
to it ahead of time, but I still want to go see it again already, because I
feel positive that there was more subtext in there that I've missed.
> >I loved the 1-7 scene, and would love to know what
> >other people thought of it. And what did anyone make of Ripley's various
> >relationships with the critters? Are we now supposed to start feeling
> >more compassionate towards them, a la Frankenstein or King Kong? What
are
> >we to make of the fact that of the two stongest female (humanoid)
> >characters, one was a semi-alien clone and the other was a robot?
In a message dated 97-12-01 15:17:18 EST, Sean Johnson wrote:
> Call was an android, not a robot. As to Ripley, remember that she was
> equally strong mentally in the previous Alien movies, just not as
> physically strong. Indeed, I think she's a little stronger now because
she
> can see both sides, that of the aliens and that of the humans, and still
> chooses what on the surface seems to be the right thing to do.
Do you mean stronger now mentally, or physically? She's definitely stronger
physically now, as part of what she gained from the crossing with the alien
during cloning. And I'm sure Johner (Ron Perlman's character) would agree
with how strong she is now physically. ;)
However, as far as strong mentally, she seems to be stronger in some ways,
and more vulnerable in others. (And incidentally, IMO Sigourney Weaver did
an absolutely tremendous job in this portrayal of Ripley.) She does seem
stronger mentally because the aliens do not seem so _alien_ to the clone as
they did to the original Ripley. Even in the third movie, I got the feeling
that Ripley was constantly surpressing a desire to run screaming away from
the aliens out of sheer revulsion (in her position, I know I would!). The
clone, however, felt a strange kinship to them, and so had no problem in
facing them. However, she also seemed to have a certain vulnerability in
that no matter which "side" she chose, she would betray her kin.
Also, she seemed to exhibit some signs of what I believe was Attachment
Disorder (it often happens to infants who are severely neglected - they do
not form any sort of trust in the world or anyone in it, and have an
extremely difficult time acting in socially accepted ways). Perhaps it was
just something that I was looking for, and thus found, but I think that would
be at least _part_ of why she stabbed her hand with the knife Call had, as
well as why when Call first found the clone, she (the clone) was being too
close to Call for what society would accept. (Or was that supposed to be
some kind of lesbian subtext?!?!? I can't decide.) I think a good part of
why I started to think that Ripley's clone was dealing with Attachment
Disorder was because she had this "untamed" quality to her that reminded me
of what people (I'm sorry, I don't know which people, whether it was in
fiction or non-fiction or what) have said about supposedly tamed wolves or
part-wolf dogs. For instance, when she attacked Dr. Wren very early in the
movie: she had no reason to, except that she felt like it and he'd let his
guard down.
> What do you mean by the 1-7 scene? "1-7"?
The room clones 1-7 were held in was labeled "1-7".
> Meaning the previous clone
> attempts? If that's what you're talking about, I found it simultaneously
> disgusting and heart-rending. I kept expecting another of the
incarnations
> to come to life and was happy they didn't. The weakest part was Ron
> Perlman's character's line when he didn't understand what the big deal
was:
> "Must be a chick thing." Funny, but juvenile, but funny, but juvenile...
I think we were supposed to find it simultaneously disgusting and
heart-rending. I think we were supposed to become disgusted with certain
humans' ability to abuse and hurt other creatures, as well as to feel an
enormous amount of pity and compassion for both the "successful" clone and
the other seven clones. I, for one, wouldn't have blamed "8" for switching
sides then and there and deciding to just wipe out the stinking humans. At
least when the aliens hurt and abuse and kill, they tend to do so quickly
(even those humans who are impregnated with an alien and die during it's
"birth" die more quickly than "7"), and not to their own species.
Also, an interesting note: Apparently when the special effects people got
all the photos and casts, etc from Sigourney Weaver in order to make clones
1-7, they asked for her imput on how to make the other clones look, and she
told them to surprise her. So the first time Sigourney Weaver ever saw
clones 1-7 was when they filmed the scene the first time through (I don't
know if they needed multiple takes or not). Just thought that was kind of
interesting.
> Are we to feel more compassionate? I'd say so and I don't see how we
> could not feel compassionate. These aliens were not acting out of malice
> and that's important to keep in mind. I didn't even see the freezing a
> person scene malicious but a way to get rid of a human, i.e., an obstacle.
I would disagree - the freezing a person scene probably was malicious,
actually. I see it as a retaliation for the times the alien itself was
frozen by the doctor. Not that I blame it, but I do see it as a relatiation,
and not just a way to remove an obstacle. However, I do agree that we're
supposed to have certainly more compassion for the aliens than we've had in
the past.
<snip>
> -Sean
And in a message dated 97-12-01 14:54:51 EST, Robin Reid wrote:
> Postings that mentioned books that portrayed men hatefully did not give
any
> specific examples, so I haven't wanted to reply:
<snip> -sorry, Robin
> But with that background in mind, a friend and I saw _Alien:
Resurrection_
> last Wednesday. Said friend (female) is a HUGE fan; she made me promise
to
> go to the movie with her (Boy does she owe me one because I'm such a
> completist I had to watch the three previous ones). We both liked the
movie
> quite a lot, but as were were driving home I was musing on the movie (I do
> not consider the series to be feminist, although I know many feminist
> scholars find Ripley to be a feminist character at least). The men!
I would agree that the series is not actually feminist, although it comes
much closer than most other action movies I've seen. However, I would have
to say that Ripley is a feminist character, in that from the start she isn't
depicted as anything out of the ordinary as a person. She's just a grunt,
doing her job, waiting for her next paycheck. She doesn't start as any sort
of a "superhero type" or anything like that, but as just another working
woman in the future.
> It's produced/directed/written by men (or mostly men--at least this one
was,
> and I'm fairly sure the earlier ones were).
All four movies have been directed by men, and I know that this was the first
time Sigourney Weaver had co-producer credits on an Alien movie. Also, I
know that Alien Resurrection was written by the man who wrote
_Buffy_The_Vampire_Slayer_, and a few other movies. And I know Alien3 was
written by a man. Other than that, I don't know.
> But how do the male characters
> come across in the movies? Not very well! There are a few "good ones":
in
> this most recent one, the black crewmember and the crewmember in a
> wheelchair come across as compassionate and willing to help others even
> sacrificing themselves, as did the one surviving soldier and the one
> surviving kidnap victim.
I thought most of the crewmembers from the Betty were pretty "good"
characters. Granted, some were not terribly *enlightened* men, but at least
they were all willing to back each other up and worked well as a team. I
certainly didn't get the feeling that any of them were out to do each other
actual harm. I'll grant Johner took a strange pride in playing the
"asshole", but he seemed to have the attitude of a big brother - "I can be
mean to my crew, but anybody else is gonna have to get through me first."
> If that, there are more decent behaving men in this than in the earlier
> ones--I remember the ONE good marine who survived with Ripley and Newt in
> #2.
There was more than just "one" good marine in #2, he was just the only one
who survived. The others, aside from Gorman (the incompetent lieutenant),
were good people, but marines, and thus brash and crass and full of bravado
(a trait I can forgive in people who routinely stare death in the face for a
paycheck). In Aliens, many of the marines died in the first clash with the
aliens, and the remaining ones died during the attempt to leave the planet's
surface. Hudson (Bill Paxton's character) dies toward the end, but takes out
a number of aliens in the process, and even Gorman redeems himself some, by
choosing to stay behind with Vasquez when she is mortally wounded in order to
help the rest of the group escape.
> MOST of the men, especially those in power, are presented negatively:
<snip>
I agree, this is very true.
> Where does this fit in terms of being hateful toward men (i.e. presenting
> them as violent, rapists, stupid, etc.) that some claim feminist works
> regularly do? I'm not sure, if I was a male, that I'd appreciate this
> portrayal. (The reason I don't see the movies as feminist is because I
> don't see presenting One Exceptionally Brilliant or Outstanding Woman as a
> feminist strategy, though it certainly is a nice change and can be very
> useful for all of us to see.)
As I've kind of stated before, I didn't see Ripley as being "One
Exceptionally Brilliant or Outstanding Woman", but rather as just another
grunt (from the first movie) who managed to luck out somehow and survive.
After the first movie, she had a bit of an advantage due to her previous
experience with the aliens, but I still didn't think of her as being all that
different than other people except in the experiences she had had.
> A lot of the men in the ALIEN movies aren't too bright. I became quite
> frustrated with the plots of the first three movies because they were so
> much the same: Ripley realizes there is a problem, she warns the guys,
they
> ignore her, aliens chomp everybody except Ripley, and there it ends except
> the next one opens up with the fact that no, the aliens aren't dead yet.
I agree that got annoying. I almost want to call it some kind of "modern
feminist parable" that tells men that they really should listen to women more
often, because the men who believed Ripley and spent their time preparing
rather than sniggering at her behind their hands tended to last longer than
their counterparts. ;)
> This movie broke a bit with that plotline because of the cloning (which I
> was prepared to be snarky about, but it was handled consistently within
the
> movie even if you don't buy their premise). Having a female android, as
> played by Winona Rider, added an interesting ambiance to the plot, as did
> the overall results of the resurrection. I don't want to spoil the ending
> for people who haven't seen it yet. I think I liked this the best of the
> four movies.... although as usual I spent a fair amount of time with my
eyes
> squinched shut not seeing the yucky parts.
>
> Robin
I also liked the inclusion of Annalee Call (the android played by Winona
Ryder), and wish they'd had the time to explore what made her character tick
a little more (this is also part of why I want to go see it again already).
I think I agree with you Robin, that this is my favorite of the four movies,
and a lot of it had to do with the characterization of the clone and the
exploration of her ties with both the humans and the aliens.
Also, back to the subtext thing -
(AND THIS IS A BIG SPOILER, SO SKIP IT IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW)
- I was really disturbed by the Newborn (I guess that's what they're
officially calling that human-alien hybrid at the end) killing it's mother.
I still can't decide what exactly to make of that, but I don't much like it
either way.
Okay, my fingers really hurt now, so I'm going to stop. :)
Barbara Benesch
BJBenesch@aol.com
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu May 25 2000 - 19:07:37 PDT